Introducing — Smart Girl Dumb Questions

Summary

Curse of: America’s Next Top Model
Episode: Introducing — Smart Girl Dumb Questions
Release Date: November 21, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Curse of: America’s Next Top Model departs from the usual exploration of reality television’s legacy to introduce listeners to the new podcast Smart Girl Dumb Questions, hosted by Naima Raza. Naima shares a sample of her show, specifically a candid and deeply insightful conversation with acclaimed psychotherapist and relationship expert Esther Perel. Together, they tackle the evolving complexities of love, gender roles, feminism, and how social changes have upended our ideas of relationships and selfhood.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How Modern Life Complicates Love and Identity

(02:57 – 06:11)

• Naima Raza sets up the conversation by sharing her own “confused” experience, caught between traditional and modern value systems.
• Esther Perel notes, “You are constantly translating between different value systems. There’s a lot of certainty here, very little freedom. There’s a lot of freedom here and very little certainty. Because everything now has to be negotiated, right? Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.” (04:13)

2. Shifting Foundations: From Duty to Authenticity

(05:16 – 07:36)

• Esther observes the evolution from relationships built on “duty and obligation, by loyalty and community” to those defined by “feelings rather than values and by personal authenticity.” (05:21)
• Many people, especially in the West, now straddle both worlds, encountering increased ambiguity and self-doubt.

3. The Realities of Feminism’s Advances

(06:58 – 09:28)

• Naima asks, “Has feminism fucked us?”—prompting Esther to reflect on the multi-generational process of change:
  • “Every time I want to be critical of feminism, I only have to think about the places where women have zero voice or power or protection.” (07:47)
  • Esther traces generational shifts from a mother working tirelessly with no complaint, to women expecting partnership, to her own “designer generation,” which aims to create custom-fit relationships but struggles to know its own desires.

4. Marriage: From Cornerstone to Capstone

(09:28 – 10:18)

• The guest highlights a statistical and philosophical shift in the United States: “In the 60s, 80% of people in their 20s…were married. Today, 20% of people in their 20s are married.” (09:28)
• Marriage has shifted from a starting point to a finishing touch after self-development—creating greater focus on partnership as validation of hard-won identity.

5. The Overemphasis on Self

(10:18 – 11:03)

• Perel critiques “a bit too much self in front of every word…self love, self care.” (10:22)
• When Naima asks what word she’d prefer, Esther simply replies: “Other.” (10:28)
• The conversation explores the value of obligation—how it can “give,” rather than simply “take,” and how it’s undervalued in modern Western culture obsessed with authenticity.

6. Loneliness and the Loss of Relational Models

(11:03 – 12:35)

• Esther links today’s loneliness crisis to a lack of focus on relational obligation and interdependence.
• Naima, as someone connected to obligation via cultural roots and family, finds herself uniquely positioned to explore these tensions.

7. Masculinity, Feminism, and Social Change

(12:35 – 14:01)

• The two discuss whether there’s been a “masculinity revolution” comparable to feminism, concluding that the change for men has been spottier and more rigid, and would benefit from systematic reflection and new narratives.
• Esther: “Men have not had [a revolution] in as systematic a way… the restrictions are much stronger on the men.” (13:58)

8. The Allure of Nostalgia and Trad Wife Trends

(14:30 – 17:37)

• Naima brings up the rise of “tradwife” (traditional wife) trends and nostalgia for defined gender roles.
• Esther explains how times of rising authoritarianism rekindle rigid gender structures, providing “structure, order,” and the comfort of knowing “everyone knows their place.” (17:37)
• Perel: “Wherever you have rises of authoritarianism… it is accompanied with a redefinition of rigid gender roles…Because if you redefine the role of the woman, you redefine the role of the men.” (16:25)

9. Commodification of Love and Sex – “Emotional Capitalism”

(18:20 – 20:45)

• The hosts dissect the “materialist” dating trend, where people are evaluated like stocks (height, salary, etc.).
• Esther: “There is something about that in our culture…consumerism marrying romanticism, becoming romantic consumerism…It’s emotional capitalism.” (18:43–18:59)
• Dating is increasingly transactional, and the boundaries between psychological terms and business practices have blurred, with authenticity and vulnerability adopted as business buzzwords even as romantic relationships are increasingly hedged, negotiated, and commodified.

10. The Alienation of Swiping Culture and Technology

(20:04 – 20:36)

• Esther critiques the way dating apps and disembodied interaction make people forget “there’s actually a human being on the other side.”
• Naima brings up the rise of AI romantic relationships, hinting at a future where “maybe there won’t be a human being.”

11. A Cliffhanger on Romance Across Decades

(20:36 – 20:52)

• Naima poses the question: “Would you rather date in 1985 or 2025?”
• Esther’s answer is withheld, teasing listeners to catch the rest on Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

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Memorable Quotes & Attributions

• “Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.”
  — Esther Perel (04:13)

• “Authenticity and to be true to ourselves is not an easy thing to come by.”
  — Esther Perel (08:13)

• “Marriage has shifted from cornerstone to capstone… You come to help me preserve my hard won identity.”
  — Esther Perel (09:56)

• “A bit too much self in front of every word, I would say.”
  — Esther Perel (10:22)

• “Other… I think that the overemphasis on the self is not necessarily helping us at this point.”
  — Esther Perel (10:28)

• “Obligation is not hot at this moment… It’s not popular.”
  — Esther Perel (11:03)

• “Women have had about 50, 60 years of examining their lives and their position… men have not had it in as systematic a way.”
  — Esther Perel (13:34)

• “Trad wives is very clear… it brought a sense of structure, order. Everyone knows their place.”
  — Esther Perel (17:37)

• “You have consumerism marrying romanticism, becoming romantic consumerism… It’s emotional capitalism.”
  — Esther Perel (18:43)

• “In the midst of that, we’re going to somehow find love. But we are bringing in an enormously transactional… What will satisfy me, what is on my list?”
  — Esther Perel (20:04)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:22 – 02:57: Naima Raza introduces Smart Girl Dumb Questions and guest Esther Perel.
• 04:13: Perel on negotiating between value systems and the paradox of freedom vs. certainty.
• 05:21 – 06:05: Shift from duty and obligation to authenticity in relationships.
• 07:36: “Designer generation” and generational changes in women’s roles highlighted.
• 09:28 – 10:18: Discussion of marriage trends and identity.
• 10:22 – 10:28: Over-indexing on “self” vs. “other.”
• 13:34 – 13:58: Masculinity’s lack of a parallel revolution to feminism.
• 16:25 – 17:37: The connection between authoritarianism and traditional gender roles.
• 18:43 – 18:59: “Emotional capitalism” and the commodification of relationships.
• 19:04 – 20:36: Dissecting cultural trends like materialist dating and swiping culture.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a complex, nuanced look at the conflicting forces shaping today’s relationships, gender roles, and sense of self. Estimable guest Esther Perel, with host Naima Raza, supplies listeners with wisdom both personal and universal—raising more questions than answers, in the best possible way. The sample of Smart Girl Dumb Questions promises in-depth, challenging, and refreshingly candid discussions for listeners craving context and clarity in a chaotic cultural moment.

For listeners intrigued by these thought-provoking themes, full conversations and more await on Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

Transcript

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[Naima Raza]

Hi, I'm Naima Raza. Like all of you, I have been living for Curse of America's Next Top Model. So to help with your and my withdrawal from season one, Bridget invited me to share a little bit about my weekly show, which is called Smart Girl Dumb Questions. We'll play you a taste of a recent episode I did with Esther Perel, the renowned psychotherapist and relationship expert, as we unpack why love feels so hard these days. Have a listen, and if you like it, you can get the full conversation by searching for Smart Girl Dumb Questions wherever you get your podcast. And you can follow or subscribe to the show for new episodes every Tuesday.

Aster Perel, thank you so much for being here.

[Esther Perel]

Pleasure to be here.

[Naima Raza]

For those of you not familiar with Astaire's work, she's written two international bestsellers. She's given TED talks that have been viewed over 50 million times. She's a keen observer of what's happening in our relationships, not just in our love lives, but at work, in all the ways that we relate to one another. I think you're really an expert on.

[Esther Perel]

Humans, on what humans do to each other, experience with each other. And long from each other.

[Naima Raza]

And long from each other. I want to know what you long for. We're going to get there. I have questions for you about why is it harder to fall in love as time goes on? I can't tell if it's age or if it's this modern life or there's something about me. And I also want to start, though, with something a little bit nostalgic, which is the first time we met, because we're also friends, Esther and I. I.

[Esther Perel]

Have an image of us walking out of a building on the street and. But what were we doing in that building?

[Naima Raza]

Was that the Spotify building?

[Esther Perel]

Yes, but what were we doing there?

[Naima Raza]

We were chatting and we were chatting off the record, and yet I wanted to play some tape from it today. Is that okay?

[Esther Perel]

Oh, wow. Of the record that you recorded me.

[Naima Raza]

Well, I remember I asked you for your permission, but it was for my own notes. It was for my own notes. Go ahead. And I kept it, and if it's okay, I'll play it for you.

[Esther Perel]

And if you don't like it, my curiosity is odd.

[Naima Raza]

I know that's. This is the whole point of the show.

Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

We are wanting something that is at the opposite of where we are living. When you live in Pakistan, when your mother lives in Pakistan, because you're already the generation that has been moving. And so you are super rich and fascinating and fucked up because you are constantly negotiating. It makes you the most pertinent global citizen and an amazing journalist, but you are constantly translating between different value systems. Whereas your mother, she knew what was expected from her as a wife, as a mother, as a woman, as a daughter, and as a pious person. The rules was clear. The rules were clear. The norms are clear. The expectations are clear. There's a lot of certainty here, very little freedom. There's a lot of freedom here and very little certainty. Because everything now has to be negotiated, right? Everything that was a rule has become a conversation.

Everything that was a rule has become a conversation. What do you think hearing that?

[Esther Perel]

I still think like that. I think that one of the most interesting shifts that has taken place in the realm of relationships is the shift from relationships that are defined by duty and obligation, by loyalty and community, to relationships that became defined by feelings rather than values and by personal authenticity. Authenticity rather than loyalty. And I think that the majority of the world is still living with the very first model. But there are so many people on this planet, you are one of them who are constantly straddling both. And the reason I said to you all of this, it's all coming back.

[Naima Raza]

The reason you told me I'm fucked up.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I said, I mean, confused is probably better.

[Naima Raza]

No, it's great.

[Esther Perel]

It's rich. It's very layered. It's, you know, is because that same weekend you were going to Washington to visit your father. And I said, how much do you live between these two worlds? You know, the world where you had very little freedom, but a lot of clarity and certainty, and the world where you have a ton of freedom, but you are often ridden with self doubt and with uncertainty, as we are today here in the west, especially when it comes to our romantic relationships. So I don't know that one is better than the other.

[Naima Raza]

I love that. And I love that you still think this way because this was seven years ago. I was like, here's Esther Perel. This, you know, you were really on up at that time as well. I think your career was like, you still are, but that was like you were taking off in a way. And not.

[Esther Perel]

It was the first year.

[Naima Raza]

Yeah, first year of that takeoff. And I thought, I really appreciate it. I was like, oh, she basically diagnosed me, but she also diagnosed a lot of our society. Because it isn't just about international and cultural. It's about the way in which the role of a woman has changed tremendously between a generation. And I guess my first question for you is, has feminism fucked us? Has this idea of this changing role of women in some way put us in this tension between what, this old world and this new world and in this constant sense of negotiation and self doubt?

[Esther Perel]

I absolutely wouldn't say that it has fucked us up. I think that that's not the way I think. I think it's an extremely important movement in the history of people, of humankind, for men and women and everybody included. But I do think that change happens in multiple phases. You can make a declaration, you can change the law, you can open doors. But what follows in terms of the intricacies of the experience takes more than one generation. Every time I want to be critical of feminism, I only have to think about the places where women have zero voice or power or protection. I have to think about my own grandmother who, you know, the gap between where she was and where I am. I have to think even with my mother, and how she was a full time working person. We lived above the store, so I saw her working morning and night. The store was open some days till 9 o'. Clock. She came upstairs, she cooked her two meals made from scratch, and there was no complaint. But her aspiration inside was that, is there a different way? Is there a way that she didn't have to carry some of the burdens that she was carrying? And then came the next generation which began to say, if I do all these things, you partner, you should do those things too. And then came my generation, which is basically the designer generation. I get to design my relationship, but that demands that I know what I want. You know, authenticity and to be true to ourselves is not an easy thing to come by. And certainly not in your 20s.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

So when you say what's changed? You know, in the 60s, 80% of people in their 20s in the United States were married. Today in 20% of people in their 20s are married.

[Naima Raza]

I don't even think 80% of people in their 30s are married.

[Esther Perel]

But that means that, that, you know, our parents generation saw marriage as a cornerstone experience. I meet you and together we build the foundation of our life.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

We have developed the capstone experience of marriage. Marriage or committed relationships, it doesn't matter. But the capstone thing means I've already developed, I've already built myself. I'm already on a certain track. I have an idea of what I want, where I stand in the world. And you come as a confirmation of who I am. You come to help me preserve my hard won identity.

[Naima Raza]

Yeah. And so much of our culture is like self help, self love, self care. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

A bit too much self in front of every word, I would say yes.

[Naima Raza]

What word would you put there instead of self?

[Esther Perel]

Other.

[Naima Raza]

Other, others.

[Esther Perel]

You know, I think that the over index, the overemphasis on the self at a detriment of our ability to actually think about others is not necessarily helping us at this point.

[Naima Raza]

Right. I see this shift you're talking about from the other to ourself, and I think about it a lot, especially because of my cultural roots. And as you said, I went to visit my father, and after my father passed away, I wrote a whole piece about how obligation gives. Doesn't just take. It gives a lot. But I also think that there's this real nostalgia, and I think that we.

[Esther Perel]

Need more people in that sense, like you. You know, it's very natural for you to write that piece, but in fact, it's not a natural piece for others who you to read. And it puts them in front of another dimension. You know, obligation is not hot at this moment. It's not popular.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Authenticity and personal truth and honesty is much more. You know, and we will forego our relationships at this moment in order to preserve this authenticity. And what you're saying is a relational model, which I think we could really use hearing a lot more about, because it directly connects to everything else people want to discuss about loneliness.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Except these things are connected.

[Naima Raza]

Except I think, like you said, like you diagnosed the first time we met, it's extremely challenging because I have this other orientation. I want to be, you know, dutiful, and I want to, in many ways, model parts of what my mother has done. But I also have this real tension and expectation and experience of being a highly independent, individualized, you know, person in this world with a lot of freedom, a lot of choice. So that's why I asked the question, did feminism fuck us? I ask it partly rhetorically, but I also think there's this changing role of women that is objectively good and yet hasn't been captured and really dealt with as a society. For what you're saying, it's gonna be multi generational for it to be absorbed.

[Esther Perel]

Correct. It needs to metabolize. But I think if you're asking about the foundations of changing the dynamic between the roles, you know, I mean, I came to hear you do a leader dialogue or a debate recently about masculinity.

[Naima Raza]

Yes. At the Comedy Cellar.

[Esther Perel]

You know what was at a Comedy Cellar.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And the interesting thing is that the person started to talk by talking about the women's revolution, and that that revolution actually hadn't just changed the life of women, but it had actually changed the lives of men. And it gave birth to a very. Which is the making of modern fatherhood, which is a huge. But we don't talk about that in terms of the revolution, the men's movement. We've decided that the women had a revolution and the men have not had it yet. But we do know.

[Naima Raza]

Do you think they've had it? Have men had a revolution yet? Like a feminist revolution, but for men?

[Esther Perel]

I think that women have had about 50, 60 years of examining their lives and their position in this world and their aspirations and rights and narratives. And I think that men have not had it in as systematic a way. There are pockets, but they have not. And I think that in that sense, the restrictions are much stronger on the men.

[Naima Raza]

Does there need to be a masculinity revolution?

[Esther Perel]

I don't think if it does a revolution, I think that everybody stands to gain from revisiting taboos, rigidities, set norms, and constraining and constricting narratives and roles. What's wrong? I mean, it's kind of an obvious thing. Why wouldn't we? And I think that it would change the lives of many. But that's a point of view, right?

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Is status quo something that must be preserved, or is there something inherently good in revisiting social norms?

[Naima Raza]

Well, right now it seems like we're.

In a moment of, like, reckoning with social norms. Because I'm sure you've read a lot about the tradwife revol or the kind of interest in it's not a revolution. Come on. Yes, okay. The tradwife trend. Yes, the tradwife trend. The kind of women looking for a guy in finance, 6, 5, et cetera trend. Do you see any of these as, like, are these extremely nostalgic? Are they reactions to our time? How do you make sense of these gender role, like, reassertions every time you.

[Esther Perel]

Go to see an exhibit on degenerate art?

[Naima Raza]

Every. Every Tuesday? For me, yes.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, there have been amazing exhibits of that. You get a sense as to what was considered degenerate. And one of the first things that was considered degenerate is gender roles that become more fluid. And what was considered degenerate was a kind of a blurring between fiction and reality. And what was considered more fluid, you know, so the opposite of that is that you then look at what was the art that was actually revered. And it was a table of people around all impeccably dressed with a woman who is serving the whole plan of the family and who finds meaning in that subservience. And there is order, there is clarity of roles, there is hierarchy of gender. And that is extremely comforting. So I don't know that I would call it just nostalgic. I think that wherever you have rises of authoritarianism anywhere in the world, it is accompanied with a redefinition of rigid gender roles, traditional gender roles. Because if you redefine the role of the woman, you redefine the role of the men.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

They are interdependent. The trad wife does not exist without a counterpart. She's always accompanied by.

[Naima Raza]

That makes it sound like it's something that's happening. But I think women are lusting for something. I think there's a sense of like. I kind of think they may participate.

[Esther Perel]

In this the same, you know, it's not that it is imposed on them, but it is related to a recreation of a certain social order that is broader than just gender. And it comes with authoritarianism. Autocratic regimes. The same thing happens around sexuality. You know, I had a conversation with Yuval Harari and I will never forget the first question he asked me is why does every authoritarian regime come with an instant repression around sexuality? It's messy. And authoritarianism doesn't like messy. Blurred lines, blurred roles and all of that. Trad wipes is very clear. You know, you've defined it to me, the way she dresses, she cooks, she bakes, she's.

[Naima Raza]

You can picture it with the whole.

[Esther Perel]

Meaning, you know, the whole. And that art exists. I mean, it's very interesting to look at it historically, because it brought a sense of structure, order.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Everyone knows their place.

[Naima Raza]

Isn't it also like a bit, what you said, what is considered degenerate at the time is. Is like in opposition to whatever.

[Esther Perel]

But the degenerate is always considered the same thing. Yeah, the blurring is considered degenerate. The blurring of genders is degenerate. The blurring of hierarchies degenerate.

[Naima Raza]

So it's not like this could. It's not like trad wives are degenerate because they're pushing against the current generation. It's always generate.

[Esther Perel]

No, what is considered not okay, is kids who think that they have too much importance, rather than they are little ones that are very nicely obedient and dressed and stand by you like this. You know, I wish everybody else wishes their kids would stand like that, nice, nicely next to them. Everybody is in their place, which makes it easier for others to move them.

[Naima Raza]

Right. To control the system. So there's also this other narrative right now that men are being commoditized. Did you watch the. You watched the movie Materialist?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Naima Raza]

Okay, what did you think of the materialists as a concept? The relationship not the film, but the idea for this, that it's all in the math. Yeah, it's all a transaction.

[Esther Perel]

It's all in the math, yes.

[Naima Raza]

You agree that that's how our culture looks at it?

[Esther Perel]

I think that there is something about that in our culture, yes. I think this is consumerism marrying romanticism, becoming romantic consumerism.

[Naima Raza]

Yeah, that's.

[Esther Perel]

It's, it's, you know, it's emotional capitalism.

[Naima Raza]

So the idea, I mean, the way the film, for people who haven't seen it came out. He's a 10, he's a 10.

[Esther Perel]

He's a unicorn. She's a six.

[Naima Raza]

Yeah, exactly.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, it's just amazing.

[Naima Raza]

Everyone has a number. And then to promote the film, they put a stock price ticker literally at the, you know, the New York Stock Exchange that had men and their height and their salaries and they were running them up and down as if it was a commodities exchange.

[Esther Perel]

It is terrible. Do you think so sad.

[Naima Raza]

Do you think that sex has become commoditized these days or not? Sex, the act of sex, but relationship has become commoditized. Consumerized, you say?

[Esther Perel]

Yes, I do.

[Naima Raza]

And who is the commodity these days? Is it people?

[Esther Perel]

Men?

[Naima Raza]

Is it more women? Everybody.

[Esther Perel]

Everybody. People are the commodity. I mean, you know, the concept of emotional capitalism is an interesting crossover. Right. Because what happens is that on the one hand, you have all these psychological terms that have entered the business world. And we talk about psychological safety and we talk about authenticity. Authenticity. And we talk about vulnerability. But on the other end, you have an entire business mentality that has entered romantic love.

[Naima Raza]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

You know, and we're going to hedge our bets and we're going to negotiate the best deals and we. And it's. And in the midst of that, we're going to somehow find love. But we are bringing in an enormously transactional. What will satisfy me, what is on my list? What am I looking for? And when I don't like it, I dump. I ghost, I follow, I go on to the next and I swipe. And these disembodied experiences make you forget that there's actually a human being on the other side.

[Naima Raza]

And soon maybe there won't be a human being. People are having romantic relationships with their AIs now. They may, yes. Would you, all things equal, rather date in 1985 or 2025? Oh, all right.

Chris of ANTM Family, a little cliffhanger there for you. Esther's answer, by the way, really surprised me. So if you want to hear it, search for smart girl, dumb questions wherever you get your podcasts and you can start listening around minute 19 so you don't feel like you have to start and listen to the whole thing all over again. And by the way, please follow Smart Girl Dumb Questions. New episodes of the show drop every Tuesday and you may love my conversation with Brooke Devard when I ask her, is beauty just capitalism? Or with Tamsen Fadal when I ask her what's a woman's prime? Or with therapist Ellen Vora because we talk about if everyone has anxiety, does anyone have anxiety? And if you have dumb questions you want answered, please email me. I'm naimaraza101mail.com Great to meet you guys and hope to see you on Smart Girl Dumb Questions.

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[Esther Perel]

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[Naima Raza]

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[Podcast Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.