Bridget Armstrong (2:09)

You listen to podcasts sponsored by Jasper AI Built for marketers. On this episode, we're continuing to look into ANTM psychological evaluations and how they were really used. If you haven't listened to our first episode on the Psyche Vows, go back and listen to that. And before I go on, I want to say that this episode is particularly dark. We're talking about trauma, including sexual assault and physical abuse. We're also talking about suicide and suicidal ideation. Now onto the episode. While I was doing interviews for this show, I asked every model I spoke to what they were told the ANTM psych eval was for. Here's what Cycle 24's Gina Turner said.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (2:57)

They were explaining on a stage what the use of the psych evals were for. And it was just like, just so we can understand you and get to know you better and just make this a great experience. They didn't really say it was to manipulate you or to think ahead of you or to think before you could or to put together a certain narrative.

Bridget Armstrong (3:16)

But once she got cast on the show, that's exactly how her psyche vow was used. Gina had a traumatic childhood. She said her mother struggled with drug addiction, and because of that, Gina was in and out of foster care. As an adult, she experienced sexual assault and suicidal ideation. She told the show psychologists all of this. Gina expected that what she told them would stay in those rooms, that it was all necessary information to ensure everyone's safety. Gina was cast on the show, but once the cameras started rolling, she discovered that those deeply traumatic experiences she shared in her psych evaluation had been given to ANTM producers. Gina had a whirlwind of a season. She was eliminated, brought back, eliminated again, then saved, and went on to become one of two finalists, only to lose the competition in the finale. After one of those eliminations, the producers pulled her for an exit interview.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (4:16)

They interviewed me for seven hours. They kept me in a room with an interviewer, a sound guy, and a cameraman. The majority of that interview was them poking and prodding at me and asking me questions about, you know, how traumatizing my childhood was and, like, things I've gone through with my mom and, like, being in and out of foster care and how was it, you know, having a mom who, you know, struggled with drug addiction and what did that do to you?

Bridget Armstrong (4:46)

For legal reasons, I have to say this. We can't confirm what Gina is saying about her mom here, but according to Gina, she shared this with the ANTM psychologist, and the show producers brought it up in this confessional. Gina says she started to shut down, but the producers didn't stop until they got the reaction they wanted.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (5:07)

Then that conversation very quickly turned into them talking about personal traumas and, like, my mental health and me talking about being suicidal. And I just remember for hours and hours on end, they just kept focusing on me being suicidal. And it's like, I just want to talk about something happy. I don't want to talk about growing up in foster care. I don't want to talk about what it's like to see my mom smoke crack through a doorway. I don't want to. I don't want to talk about any of that shit. And, like, it was specifically about the suicidal thing. I was exhausted. I was physically so exhausted. And I remember putting my hands on my. And I was like, I don't want to talk about it anymore. And I'm crying. I wanted to win America's Nice Model. I thought I could do it.

Bridget Armstrong (5:51)

I don't want to talk about it anymore.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (5:56)

But that is literally the clip that they used for how I emotionally responded for losing the competition. And that will forever stick with me. Like my exit from that show, visually at least, the way it was presented was actually me talking about being suicidal.

Bridget Armstrong (6:13)

Gina would be the last Top Model contestant to experience this kind of pressure and manipulation. Because that clip we just heard was from the final episode of ANTM ever made. After 15 years, the show went off the air in 2018, and they closed it out the same way they started.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (6:33)

They still couldn't put me in a positive light. They still couldn't empower me. They still tried to, like, keep me boxed into this, like, poor, pitiful underdog girl. And for that I can say fuck them. Yeah.

Bridget Armstrong (6:59)

Welcome to the curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm Bridget Armstrong. On this episode, we're continuing our deep dive into ANTM's psychological evaluations. Last episode, you heard the models say they were told their conversations with the show's psychologists were to make sure they were a safe choice for the show. They told the psychologists their deepest, darkest secrets because that's what they were asked to do. Like Gina, most contestants thought they were speaking to the psychologist in confidence, but they were wrong. I've talked to contestants who say their traumatic experiences were later used by producers to manipulate them for the cameras. The fact that producers were even allowed to do that was buried deep in the contestants contracts. And then there's the lingering question about the real purpose of the psych evaluation. There are several contestants whose trauma history and history with suicidal ideation should have gotten them red flagged by the show's psychologist. After antm, some of those contestants turned to drugs and alcohol and one even took her own life. In the contract the contestants signed, they waived their rights to confidentiality. Meaning if the psychologist unearthed something in the psyche valve that made a potential cast member a danger, they had the permission to share it with producers, which makes sense, but they also had permission to share anything else they found out in the evaluations. The contract says information obtained by producers may be used for purposes of selecting participants and in connection with the program in general, including but not limited to the production of the program. That language is pretty vague, but that one line gave producers the clearance to use what was shared in the psych eval to produce antm. If I saw it the way it was written in the contract, I don't think I would connect the dots. And most of the models I talked to told me they didn't understand this part of the process. ANTM made a point of telling contestants the psych eval was for their safety, but they didn't mention its other use. Maybe because they knew the contestants wouldn't be so forthcoming with their personal trauma if they knew how it would would be used. Producers bringing up contestants deepest trauma on set seemed to be a pattern for antm. Sarah Hartshorn saw it on Cycle nine. Somebody had a sick relative, a very sick relative that they were close to, and they would ask them about it all the time. They would push her and push her and push her like, are you afraid they're going to die while you're here? Are you afraid that if you don't win, you will have missed out on time with them in vain? And Even more disturbing, UV Gomez from Cycle 4 told me something she opened up about during her ANTM psych eval was later shared with the producers of Tyra's Talk show. Without UV's permission.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (10:09)

They ask us all these questions about like, our early childhood, our life, our traumas.

Bridget Armstrong (10:15)

And the Tyra show called me because.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (10:17)

I had a pretty traumatic childhood, to say the least. And they used some of the information.

Bridget Armstrong (10:22)

That I had told them for America's Next Top Model about my family. And they were like, we're doing a show where you confront family and we know your mom was a very absent.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (10:35)

Mother and there was some abuse and neglect. We want you to come on the.

Bridget Armstrong (10:40)

Show and confront her about it. I said, abso freaking lutely not.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (10:46)

We'll talk to each other face to face.

Bridget Armstrong (10:48)

I ain't taking her on TV to call my mom out. But the fact that they did that.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (10:52)

I felt violated that they used that.

Bridget Armstrong (10:57)

It felt very grimy. We were there talking to a psychologist about all our woes and struggles, and then you're gonna bring it back up.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (11:08)

It just felt very yucky.

Bridget Armstrong (11:10)

Again, for legal reasons, I have to say this. We can't confirm what UV is saying about her mom here, but this is what she says she told the ANTM psychologist. And somehow that information later got to the producers of Tyra's talk show. It was an entirely different program, but owned by the same production company. During my reporting on antm, this idea of producers manipulating the contestants with Personal trauma from their past came up a lot. But it wasn't just in those confessional interviews or behind the scenes. Some models say their trauma was used to create storylines, conflict, and shocking moments on the show. And I talked to a producer who confirmed that. Former ANTM creative producer Andrew Patterson told me that if a contestant shared a fear of something in the psych eval, he was told about it so he could craft photo shoots and runways that would put the contestant face to face with their fears. The contestant would either come out triumphant, having faced their trauma, or have a complete meltdown. Either way, it made good tv.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (12:18)

We throw these elements of fear because it's a competition reality show. Let's, you know, see how they react.

Bridget Armstrong (12:24)

I always thought these photo shoots and runways were designed to get a reaction out of all the contestants. But Andrew told me sometimes he would look at their casting files for personal phobias and design challenges to fuck with specific contestants. Those photo shoots and runways usually involve spiders or heights. You know, a little fear factor element. Most people are afraid of bugs and hanging off the side of tall buildings, but Lisa d' Amato says it got a lot more personal. You've heard from Lisa before. She's the one who peed in a diaper on cycle five and was later awarded that controversial win in cycle 17. During her initial ANTM psych eval, Lisa says she was asked about her most disgusting experience. Strange question. But Lisa had just been through something that she couldn't forget.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (13:14)

I had taken care of my grandpa and my grandma. Me and my grandma were really close, and my grandpa had just passed away. And at the funeral, my grandma had the worst accident ever. It was basically just like she couldn't control going to the bathroom. So when she went to the bathroom at the funeral, the services going on, she has the hugest accident number two, right? I realized she didn't come back. She was with a walker. And so I went to the bathroom to go check on her, and I realized that she shit all over herself. It's all over her dress. She was trying to clean herself. She doesn't have that much balance. I'm realizing that it's on the walls because she has it on her hands. There's poop everywhere. And this is her husband's funeral. So I'm just, like, holding in, trying to be strong for her, But I'm also devastated. The smell is disgusting. I cleaned everything up as fast as I could with just paper towels and water. We didn't come out for, like, 20 minutes. So we finally came Out. We were wet. I cleaned us as best we could, but we smelled like poop. And I just thought, this is the worst way for my grandma to have this experience.

Bridget Armstrong (14:36)

Lisa says she shared all of this with the show's psychologist.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (14:40)

I'm curious of what the other girls said. I guess my story beat theirs. I guess on Cycle five, they had us do a challenge. Guess what the challenge was. The challenge was to go through a obstacle course in cow manure where you're completely covered in cow manure. You have to, like, dig yourself in the ground to get under something, not touch things.

Bridget Armstrong (15:08)

Lisa's gonna go first. Where's my army grease? Here you go. Lisa is in heaven.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (15:13)

She is tough.

Bridget Armstrong (15:14)

Here we go. Leave him like this. Go grab Lisa.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (15:18)

Climb the high walls.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (15:19)

Oh, Lisa.

Bridget Armstrong (15:20)

Come on, Lisa. Dragon front, army front. Crawl all the way down. Way to get dirty, girl.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (15:27)

I love being dirty, so this actually is nothing to me.

Bridget Armstrong (15:32)

Nice and dirty. There you go. I just have to add there is some question about whether it was mud, manure or mud mixed with manure, but either way, it was nasty. That was the whole point of the challenge.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (15:45)

And then they lock you in the limo. They filled everything with, covered it in plastic, and made you just sit in there with each other with the windows up for about four hours where everyone just smells like poop. And there's a moment, actually, that aired on television where I'm, like, just sitting in the car and all the girls are bitching, and I'm just in complete silence because I realized what this is. I realized that they got this from my story of my grandma. I felt completely manipulated.

Bridget Armstrong (16:20)

After doing the obstacle course and sitting in the limo, the contestants had to go to a casting with Elle Girl magazine and try to be pretty and charming while covered with manure or mud or some combination. It's worth noting Lysa won the challenge. Lyssa told me this experience isn't even the most disturbing thing she shared with the ANTM psychologist. She says she was very candid about her difficult childhood and the sexual abuse she survived. After the break, you hear what Lisa shared during her psych eval and why I think it should have been a red flag for producers. Plus, we'll talk about the other contestants who may have exhibited signs of trauma, who later met tragic ends.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (17:09)

In the new podcast, Hell in Heaven, two young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead. The other tried for murder. Not once. People went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (17:50)

They actually lose it.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (17:51)

They sort of went nuts.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (17:54)

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (18:08)

People called them murderers. Ten years later, they were gods. Today, no one knows their names. A group of maverick surgeons who took on the medical establishment who risked everything to invent open heart surger. Welcome to the wild west of American medicine. I'm Chris Pine and this is Cardiac Cowboys. If you like medical dramas, if you like heart pounding thrillers, you will love Cardiac Cowboys. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever.

Bridget Armstrong (18:36)

You listen to podcasts sponsored by Jasper AI built for marketers.

Elena Sada / Sacred Scandal Narrator (18:42)

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pull back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Marcial Maciel, looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the Legion of Christ.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (19:00)

My name is Elena Sada and this is my story.

Bridget Armstrong (19:05)

It's a story of how I learned.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (19:06)

To hide, to cry, to survive, and.

Bridget Armstrong (19:09)

Eventually how I got out.

Elena Sada / Sacred Scandal Narrator (19:13)

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the cloth and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Sacred Scandal, the many secrets of Marcial Maciel as part of the My Cultura podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (19:41)

This is a tape recorded statement. Person being interviewed is Krista Gale Pike. This is in regards to the death of Colleen Slimmer.

Bridget Armstrong (19:52)

She started going off on me when I hit her. I just hit her and hit her and hit her and hit her. On a cold January day in 1995, 18 year old Christa pike killed 19 year old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction, Christa has been sitting on death row.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (20:13)

The state has asked for an execution date for Christa.

Bridget Armstrong (20:16)

We let people languish in prison for decades raising questions about who we consider fundamentally unrestorable. How does someone prove that they deserve to live? We are starting the recording now. Please state your first and Last Name.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (20:33)

Christa Pike.

Bridget Armstrong (20:35)

Listen to Unrestorable Season 2 Proof of Life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As I've been reporting on antm, I noticed a pattern. I've talked to over a dozen models for this show and watched hundreds of their interviews, and I've been alarmed at how many ANTM contestants are abuse survivors. I know abuse is common, especially for women. But on every cycle, there are multiple contestants with harrowing backgrounds. And something about this pattern sticks with me because I don't think it's coincidental. Lisa d' Amato told me she shared everything with the ANTM psychologist, including her darkest childhood trauma Cycle five.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (21:29)

They had me see three different therapists, but I passed from all of them. Which is also an important thing to let you know is according to them, if you get cast on the show, it means that you are safe.

Bridget Armstrong (21:41)

Just a heads up, Lisa is going to talk about childhood sexual abuse. Here's what she told ANTM psychologists.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (21:49)

Take a deep breath, okay? When I went into my psych evaluations with the therapist on Cycle five, they asked me about my relationship with my mother, my parents, my upbringing, as they did with everybody. For me, I had been molested by my mom's boyfriend. From the time I was 8 till 12, my sister and I just lived in fear. It was a devastating existence.

Bridget Armstrong (22:18)

Lisa says she tried to tell her mom and she didn't believe her. Instead, she blamed Lisa.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (22:24)

Whenever I would stick up for myself to my mom and be like, we don't deserve this, she would tell us, like, who do you think you are? Like, you're nothing. Go fucking kill yourself. That's the way my mom would talk to me. So, yeah, Top Model, the therapist all knew about this.

Bridget Armstrong (22:50)

You know the deal. Legally, I have to say, I can't confirm the things Lisa told me about her mother. But Lisa says when she shared this with the ANTM psychologist, she was still in her early 20s. She hadn't fully worked through a lot of her trauma. She said she'd thought about taking her own life before being on ANTM Cycle 5. Dr. Stephen Stine is the psychologist who worked on reality shows like Survivor and Big Brother. You met him last episode. I asked Dr. Stein what other concerns, aside from aggression and safety issues, would make him rule out someone as a potential cast member, Someone who may show.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (23:29)

Signs of suicide, may have had experiences or attempted a suicide.

Bridget Armstrong (23:35)

Lisa wasn't the only one who told me she talked about suicide with the ANTM evaluators. Remember, at the beginning of this episode, Gina says producers pushed her to talk about her own experience with Suicidal thoughts. That was something that psychologists must have noted before gina was cast. Dr. Stein said the other red flag he looks for are addiction issues. Lisa's edit on Cycle five pretty much revolved around her perceived drinking problem. And she told me the stress of being on ANTM contributed to her drinking.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (24:08)

I had been drinking because of the way they were torturing me in my interviews. They kept abusing me with my childhood trauma. They kept manipulating my feelings, and it was just devastating. I was trying to self soothe. That's what the drinking was. It was me self soothing.

Bridget Armstrong (24:29)

After ANTM Cycle 5, Lisa did another reality show, Celeb Rehab. That show's premise is in the name famous people live in a house together while getting help for drug and alcohol issues from a doctor who specializes in addiction. We don't know if the ANTM psychologist knew anything about Lisa's potential drinking problem when she auditioned for Cycle five, but they definitely knew about it when they brought her back for All Stars. Lisa told me the models on All Stars understood the show more their second time around, so they weren't as eager to play into the drama. Lisa said when producers couldn't get the juice they needed in the confessionals, they turned to alcohol.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (25:10)

They had guys there with champagne, so they're like, okay, well, if we can't get them from the interviews, we'll get them right away and see who can get drunk and get this thing going. I said no to the champagne probably about five times.

Bridget Armstrong (25:26)

I'm not a mental health professional, but if I'm just judging Based on what Dr. Stein told me and the information I've gathered about the antmeval, I don't know if Lisa should have been cast on antm. Even if ANTM producers didn't know about her alcohol abuse and history of suicidal thoughts before Cycle five, they should have known after. Lisa told consulting producer Oliver Twixt about how after she was eliminated from Cycle five, she stayed on set in a hotel nearby, waiting for the season to wrap. As is the case with all the contestants. While they were stuck in limbo, Lisa says she and another contestant faked a suicide attempt as a prank. She says that got her labeled a liability on set and sent home immediately. But a few years later, when ANTM was casting for their All Star season, they called her and asked her to join the cast, which she did. There are other models who may have had serious trauma in their past. Models who made it on the show and later went down dangerous paths. Kimberly Razewski was a contestant on cycle 10. She had blonde hair A round face and a pouty expression. She had a very cute, almost baby face that masked the pain she was carrying inside.

Kimberly Razewski (26:48)

I'm Kim. I'm 20 years old from Worcester, Massachusetts.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (26:51)

So what do you do for a living?

Kimberly Razewski (26:52)

I work at a bank. I'm a teller.

Bridget Armstrong (26:54)

Do you ever take money?

Kimberly Razewski (26:57)

Yeah, a lot of money.

Bridget Armstrong (26:59)

You do what she asked you? Do you take money?

Kimberly Razewski (27:03)

Oh, like steal it?

Bridget Armstrong (27:04)

Yeah.

Kimberly Razewski (27:04)

Oh, God, no. The federal offense.

Bridget Armstrong (27:08)

Kim's time on the show was brief. She decided to leave after the first elimination of the season.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (27:14)

Do you want to be here?

Kimberly Razewski (27:15)

To be completely honest, like, the whole fashion thing, it doesn't interest me at all.

Bridget Armstrong (27:22)

Why did you come here?

Kimberly Razewski (27:22)

I learned how to like, express in pictures, but like, the whole designer thing, like, you know, I don't believe in the whole, like, you know, I need to wear designer outfits and like.

Bridget Armstrong (27:32)

But you don't need to wear designer.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (27:33)

Outfits as a model.

Kimberly Razewski (27:34)

Well, I know that, but I'm just saying, like, I don't find it interesting.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (27:39)

Do you want to just go home?

Kimberly Razewski (27:41)

Yeah.

Bridget Armstrong (27:42)

All right.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (27:43)

Go home.

Bridget Armstrong (27:47)

Later, after the cycle ended, Kim revealed the real reason why she self eliminated. Right before filming, her ex boyfriend died by suicide and Kim was having a hard time coping. We don't know if Kim shared this information with antm, but it seems like she might have because after the season, she was asked to share the real story on Tyra's talk show. Here's Kim's segment on the Tyra show.

Kimberly Razewski (28:15)

Three months before the show, my ex boyfriend committed suicide. It was by far the hardest thing I've ever gone through. And at that point in my life, it was so sudden and I rushed into the whole Top Model thing, which I actually, I love fashion. I loved being there. I loved meeting Tyra and I wanted it so. But I didn't feel good on the inside. I was a mess. You know, I got there and I'm like, this is just overwhelming. I can't do this right now because all I have is the death on my mind.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (28:51)

And your ex boyfriend was not the first person in your life to commit suicide?

Kimberly Razewski (28:55)

No. When I was in seventh grade, my mom committed suicide. So it kind of even made it worse because I started feeling like, oh my God, what am I doing to people? Why is everyone around me dying? And I got into a pretty bad depression and a lot of anxiety. I was in and out of the hospital having panic attacks.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (29:18)

It was hard.

Bridget Armstrong (29:21)

We might never know how much of this Kimberly shared with the ANTM psychologist because tragically, Kim took her own life in 2016. We don't know if her participation in the show contributed to her mental health decline. But we do know the pressure of being on ANTM was too much for her to handle. That's why she walked off the set herself. But if the show conducted thorough psyche vows, how did someone like Kim slip through the cracks? Unfortunately, Kimberly's story is just one of the ANTM tragedies that raises questions. Here's a conversation J. Manuel had on his YouTube live with drag queen Raja, who you may know from RuPaul's Drag Race. Raja was also a makeup artist on ANTM.

Elena Sada / Sacred Scandal Narrator (30:09)

There's an elephant in the room to this season that I find a little.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (30:13)

Bit, like, maybe there was a curse.

Bridget Armstrong (30:15)

To it because we gotta talk about JL and Renee. The season they're referring to is Cycle eight. That season had two contestants who faced tough times after the show. Jael Strauss was one of them. Jael was the wild child of her season. She was fun, though. Like, if you went out with her, you would have the time of your life. But you might end the night running from the police. But sometimes her behavior on ANTM seemed a bit erratic. There was an episode on Cycle eight where the models were being judged on how well they interacted with celebrities at a party. 50 Cent was there, and what started out as a seemingly flirty interaction ended with him pushing her into a pool. He ain't supposed to be over here right now. Yeah, I know, but your eyes were falling. I asked you to leave. JL Deserved it because she didn't leave that man alone. JL Was being annoying, but pushing her into a pool took it too far. I swear, 50 Cent's always been an asshole. Here's Jaslene, the winner of Cycle 8, talking to Oliver Twixt. She's recalling Jael's behavior on their season.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (31:30)

JL Was a rock star on our season. She's like reality TV star gold. Gold. But when you think about some of these personalities now, in retrospect, how and.

Bridget Armstrong (31:47)

Why they were developed that way, there was actually something already being rooted from.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (31:53)

Her background that was causing her to.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (31:55)

Kind of outburst the way she would on the show.

Bridget Armstrong (32:01)

Yeah, Jaslene seems to be skating around something. We all saw. Jael's behavior was off. We don't know if Jael had substance abuse issues at the time. And I have to say there's no evidence that she did. But she did have friends who were struggling with addiction. We saw her get news of a friend's overdose death during her season.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (32:25)

JL Checked her Messages and found out that a close friend of hers had passed away.

Bridget Armstrong (32:33)

Hello? What's going on? She overdosed.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (32:37)

Oh, no.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (32:39)

Okay, I'm gonna call you back.

Bridget Armstrong (32:41)

Cause I'm gonna go outside. Cause I'm gonna freak out. Okay. Oh, God. After being eliminated from Cycle eight, Jael developed an addiction to meth and other drugs. In 2012, her family reached out to the Dr. Phil show to try to get her help. When she appeared on the show, she looked nothing like the beautiful, vibrant model we met on ANTM a few years before. She was gone, and her skin was blotchy. Her teeth had started to rot. She looked way older than 29.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (33:15)

You're doing drugs. You're living in crappy hotels. You're stripping in some sleazeball joint. I don't want everybody to know all that. Well, I didn't.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (33:24)

Why is it everybody's business?

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (33:25)

I didn't bring it up until you lied. If you had just said yes, then we'd have gone on and talked about something else. Look, I get it. But you've had a crappy deal all along. What happened to you when you were 10 years old?

Bridget Armstrong (33:40)

Oh, my God. I don't want to talk about that.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (33:41)

You don't have to talk about it. You know what I'm talking about, right?

Bridget Armstrong (33:44)

Yeah.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (33:45)

And you reached out for help, Right? And did they believe you?

Bridget Armstrong (33:49)

No.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (33:49)

They didn't believe you. This isn't just your problem. This is a family problem.

Bridget Armstrong (33:55)

Dr. Phil seemed to be alluding to something bad that happened to Jael when she was a kid. I don't know if she shared that with the ANTM psychologist. Jael later said she felt exploited by the Dr. Phil show, and from the tape, it sounds like he was more interested in putting her on blast than actually helping her. But Jael eventually got clean. She got a job as an addiction counselor and remained clean for five years before tragically passing of breast cancer in 2018. Other top model contestants, including Carrie D. English, the Cycle 7 winner, have shared their opinions about JL's time on ANTM. Carrie Dee told Gawker she didn't think ANTM producers did enough to vet jl, especially given the stress of being on the show and the struggles the models face. After Carrie D. Added that quote, all they saw was a personality good for television. The psych eval was supposed to be a guardrail to make sure nothing violent happened on set, to try to minimize the things the show could be held liable for or that could harm the production. But there was a glaring blind spot. It wasn't concerned with how the show itself might affect contestants mental health in the long run. After contestants were sent home, they told me no one from ANTM ever checked in on them or their mental well being. They thought being on the show would be their ticket into the modeling industry. But as we know, many former contestants experience rejection after rejection in part because of how the show portrayed them. After the break, the story of one model who says being on ANTM sent her into a downward spiral towards drugs and crime.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (35:46)

In the new podcast Hell in Heaven, two young Americans moved to the cock Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one will end up dead, the other tried for murder not once. People went wild, not twice, stunned, but three times. John and Anne Bender are rich and attractive and they're devoted to each other. They create a nature reserve and build a spectacular circular home high on the top of a hill. But little by little, their dream starts to crumble and our couple retreat from reality. They lose it.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (36:27)

They actually lose it.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (36:28)

They sort of went nuts.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (36:31)

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast costs.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (36:45)

People called them murderers. Ten years later, they were gods. Today, no one knows their names. A group of maverick surgeons who took on the medical establishment who risked everything to invent open heart surgery. Welcome to the wild west of American medicine. I'm Chris Pine and this is Cardiac Cowboys. If you like medical dramas, if you like heart pounding thrillers, you will love Cardiac Cowboys. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever.

Bridget Armstrong (37:13)

You listen to podcasts sponsored by Jasper AI built for marketers.

Elena Sada / Sacred Scandal Narrator (37:19)

At 19, Elena Sada believed she had found her calling. In the new season of Sacred Scandal, we pulled back the curtain on a life built on devotion and deception. A man of God, Martial Maciel looked Elena in the eye and promised her a life of purpose within the legion of Christ.

Bridget Armstrong (37:37)

My name is Elena Sada and this is my story. It's the story of how I learned.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (37:43)

To hide, to cry, to survive, and.

Bridget Armstrong (37:46)

Eventually how I got out.

Elena Sada / Sacred Scandal Narrator (37:50)

This season on Sacred Scandal, hear the full story from the woman who lived it. Witness the journey from devout follower to determined survivor as Helena exposes the man behind the clothes and the system that protected him. Even the darkest secrets eventually find their way to the light. Listen to Secret Scandal, the many secrets of Marcial Maciel as part of the Mikeultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (38:17)

This is a tape recorded statement person being interviewed is Krista Gayom Pike. This is in regards to the death of a Colleen Slimmer.

Bridget Armstrong (38:28)

She just started going off on me.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (38:30)

Then I hit her.

Bridget Armstrong (38:32)

I just hit her and hit her and hit her and hit her. On a cold January day in 1995, 18 year old Christa pike killed 19 year old Colleen Slemmer in the woods of Knoxville, Tennessee. Since her conviction, Christa has been sitting on death row.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (38:49)

The state has asked for an execution date for Krista.

Bridget Armstrong (38:53)

We let people languish in prison for decades raising questions about who we consider fundamentally unrestorable. How does someone prove that they deserve to live? We are starting the recording now. Please state your first and last name. Krista Pike. Listen to unrestorable Season 2 proof of life on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Renee Alway made it to the final three on Cycle eight. She did well in the competition, but she was the season's villain. She had beefs with a few models. One of them almost came to blows. It got so bad, Tyra came to the house to do an intervention where Renee was the subject. Tyra sat Renee down beside her and had each girl go around and say how Renee had wronged them. You've been negative to everybody so many times. It's like, how am I gonna believe.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (39:57)

You at the casting week? You're not saying very good things.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (40:01)

I feel like she has more issues.

Bridget Armstrong (40:03)

Inside that she has to deal with because I think that's just all the front. She makes a lot of valid points when she says that.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (40:08)

There is stuff going on internally with you.

Bridget Armstrong (40:10)

Sometimes when you talk, you have a.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (40:12)

Tendency to talk down to somebody.

Bridget Armstrong (40:14)

Renee was defensive at first, but after hearing how the girls felt about her, she showed some vulnerability. This is your chance to address all.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (40:22)

Of these girls right now. I'm sorry for anything I might have said to hurt or offend you guys. It's a defense mechanism for myself. I've been hurt by anybody that I've ever loved besides my husband and my. It's hurt me.

Bridget Armstrong (40:38)

From that episode on, Renee tried to change her attitude and she made it to the final three on that season. One thing ANTM loved, a redemption arc. After she left the show, Renae did the Top Model spinoff Modelville, a competition reality show that aired as a recurring segment on Tyra's talk show. Here's Renae talking with another contestant, Bianca golden, about how hard it was to get modeling jobs after A and T M. It's very rare for black models to work right now. Really?

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (41:08)

Yeah, because it's really hard for me to find work, too, and I'm, like, as white as they come.

Bridget Armstrong (41:12)

And here's Renee on Modelville talking about being abused as a child.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (41:16)

I went through some horrible things when I was growing up, and it made me very angry and bitter and just. I don't know how to explain it. Like, I just get angry with people, you know? Like, that was my mentality.

Bridget Armstrong (41:31)

What'd you thought, though?

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (41:32)

I was extremely abused when I was growing up, and it wasn't just physical. It was mental, emotional. It was everything.

Bridget Armstrong (41:41)

Renee came in second place on Modelville and third place on antm. She did well on both shows, but that still didn't help her once she got into the real world. After Modelville, Renae's life took a turn for the worse. She was a mother out of work and desperate to make it as a model. She said she'd used drugs before antm, but this time, her habit got out of control. She developed an addiction to heroin that led to homelessness and a life of crime. In 2013, she was arrested on felony burglary charges and sentenced to 12 years in prison. She got out early in 2018. We couldn't get Renee to do an interview for this podcast, so I went back to an interview she did with an ABC affiliate. It was taped while Renee was in prison.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (42:36)

I got into the world, and I went. I went, okay, like, here I am, you know, ready to do this. And it was just closed door after closed door after closed door. That was really hard to take. That was really hard to take. I felt like a failure because I couldn't get past the reality TV stigma that had been put on me.

Bridget Armstrong (42:55)

It's striking that when Renee was given the opportunity to speak out after her arrest, she pointed back to antm, saying the show set her up for failure.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (43:06)

I mean, let's just take a look at. I mean, just for America's Next Top Model, and let's not look at any other reality TV competition. How many of those girls do you see working today? Very few. Even the winners. Most of the winners are just on doing their regular life or barely making it in the industry. It's almost like a setup for failure. Once you're done with reality tv, they don't look back at you. They don't, you know, there's no, like, check on you and see how you're doing. It's just over. It's done. And it's kind of all this buildup for just a very big letdown.

Bridget Armstrong (43:42)

Like most of the models I've spoken with Renee never heard from anyone from the show after she left.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (43:49)

I can honestly tell you that I did not get a single phone call from Tyra, from anybody checking up, until they wanted me to do Modelville. And then after that, that was it. That was it. I mean, once you're out the door, you're out the door, and they look onto the next, which you can't hardly blame them because that's their job. Their job is to keep moving forward and bringing new entertainment to the masses. And, you know, that's what America wants. I can honestly say that there was never any outreach at all done after. After the show. I mean, after the elimination, while we were still there, still filming, a therapist got on the phone and you talked to a therapist for about five, ten minutes. And that. That was. That's the gist of it, you know.

Bridget Armstrong (44:35)

Renee says she doesn't blame ANTM for the choices she made in the part. You didn't hear of that interview? She takes accountability for her actions. She acknowledges that lots of models are disappointed with their careers after antm, and they don't turn to drugs or crime. I understand America's Next Top Model isn't a mentorship program, no matter how much Tyra tried to sell us the big sister act. Technically, the show doesn't have any responsibility to the models after they leave. And realistically, not everyone was going to have a big modeling career. But at the very least, they could have done something to make sure the models were prepared to handle the potential letdown, especially the girls who seem like they would take it the hardest. Offering additional mental health resources to contestants after a show wraps isn't unheard of. In fact, Dr. Stephen Stein says it's something he offers on the shows he works on, and he's been doing it for decades.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (45:35)

Generally, what I like to do, and many shows do, is we give them up to three sessions of therapy once they have completed the show. So usually I meet with them all when. When they're eliminated, see how they're doing. If we get the sense that somebody needs more help, I'll refer to someone in their hometown. I'll find a therapist for them and. Or choice of three therapists, and they can continue for two or three sessions or on their own. More than that. Again, it depends on the show, what they're willing to fund.

Bridget Armstrong (46:05)

From what I've heard, this isn't how it went down on antm. Even contestants I've spoken to who shared serious trauma histories or suicidal ideation in their casting Say they received very little follow up from the show psychologist. And I should point out here, that wasn't necessarily the psychologist's decision. Like Dr. Stein said, the level of post show psychological care all came down to the budget and that's a decision made at the very top. Certainly after the success of its first few seasons, you'd think ANTM could have allocated more money for mental health resources, but they didn't. After she was eliminated, Renae always said she talked to a therapist for 10 minutes on the phone. Other models I've talked to said something similar. Renee may be an extreme example of someone who couldn't handle the reality of life after reality tv. But I know she's not the only ANTM model who felt disappointed and depressed after leaving show. Brittany Brower from Cycle 4 is one of the many models I talked to who felt that way.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (47:20)

You're on this high from Top Model.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (47:22)

And then that starts to slow down.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (47:25)

That's when the depression stage came and that takes a toll on everything.

Bridget Armstrong (47:30)

Immediately after the show, Brittany was riding the wave of opportunities that came with her 15 minutes of fame. But as that time passed, people forgot about Britney.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (47:41)

The next cycle comes up, then another cycle comes up. It just took me a long time to bounce back from that. I had to like figure out who I was really again after Top Model.

Bridget Armstrong (47:50)

And figure out how to truly be.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (47:52)

Me like the strong version of me again and not be so like let down.

Bridget Armstrong (47:59)

Contestants were told the psych eval measured their mental fitness, but beyond what they could be held accountable for, ANTM didn't seem to care much about the contestants long term well being. That may be well within their rights, but morally it raises questions. After talking to Dr. Stein, I'm realizing ANTM was a particularly brazen offender in the world of reality TV. For 24 seasons, it picked apart women's traumas and bodies to entertain us. And afterwards the show didn't even check on them. It didn't offer resources, which is the least it could do. That's what other shows were doing at the time. And it didn't seem to learn or change its process as the rest of the industry took more accountability for their contestants well being. Then there's the matter of how they conducted the psych eval and how they used them. If they were about safety, why would they cast contestants they ruled out as angry or troubled and bring them back to have confrontations on the show? Why would they cast contestants who'd shown signs of substance abuse? Why would they cast contestants who shared their history with suicidal ideation. Why would they cast a contestant who experienced the suicide of two loved ones, one of which had just happened? I think it's because they needed them. They needed people with traumatic backgrounds, behavioral issues, substance use disorders, and personality disorders, people who were likely to act out on camera. They needed these people to entertain us. So in a way, maybe the psych eval worked exactly as producers intended as a way to find the people they thought they needed to make a good reality show. Which is exactly what they did. One last thing before we go. We reached out to the executive producer of antm, Ken Mock, so that he could provide more perspective on the psyche vows and what we've discussed in this episode, but we did not hear from him before airing this episode. On the next episode, we'll explore how ANTM prioritized making the best reality tv, not the best models.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (50:27)

And I get a tap on the back of my shoulder from Ken Mock saying stop it. We want to see these girls cry. This is going to make great television. And I just stood back and I'm.

Bridget Armstrong (50:35)

Like, yeah, okay, it is good tv. A lot of those girls didn't get looked at as people. They were a product. If they were boring, they got cut. Thanks for listening to the Curse Curse of America's Next Top Model. We really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to really show your support by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to leave us a five star rating and review. If you love the show, tell your group chat, your co workers, your friends, your mama to check us out. And if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners. The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me, Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Alicia Key, Kristin Melcurry and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers are Oliver 12th 12th and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynchek. Audio editing and mixing by Andrew Calloway and Matt Del Vecchio. The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme music was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music. Special thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the models for sharing their stories and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartra Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Also check out the Glass podcast, Instagram Lasspodcast for Curse of America's Next Top Model, behind the scenes content and more.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (52:21)

Hey, it's Ed Helms, host of Snafu, my podcast about history's greatest screw ups. On our new season, we're bringing you a new Snafu. Every single, single episode.

Bridget Armstrong (52:32)

32 lost nuclear weapons. You're like, wait, stop. What?

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (52:35)

Yeah, it's going to be a whole lot of history, a whole lot of funny, and a whole lot of fabulous guests. Paul Scheer, Angela and Jenna, Nick Kroll, Jordan Klepper. Listen to season four of SNAFU with Ed Helms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (52:52)

Two rich young Americans move to the Costa Rican jungle to start over. But one of them will end up dead and the other tried for murder three times. It starts with a dream, a nature reserve and a spectacular new home. But little by little, they lose it.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (53:08)

They actually lose it.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (53:09)

They sort of went nuts.

Hell in Heaven Narrator (53:11)

Until one night, everything spins out of control. Listen to Hell in Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Bridget Armstrong (53:27)

On this podcast, Incels, we unpack an emerging mindset. I am a loser. If I was a woman, I wouldn't date me either. A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at a deadly tipping point. Tomorrow is the day of retribution.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (53:43)

The day in which I will have my revenge.

Bridget Armstrong (53:47)

This is Incels.

Additional ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (53:50)

Listen to season one of Incels on.

Bridget Armstrong (53:52)

The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Ed Helms / Chris Pine (depending on context) (53:58)

People called them murderers. Ten years later, they were gods. Today, no one knows their names. A group of maverick surgeons who took on the medical establishment who risked everything to invent open heart surgery. Welcome to the wild west of American medicine. I'm Chris Pine and this is Cardiac Cowboys. If you like medical dramas, if you like heart pounding thrillers, you will love Cardiac Cowboys. Listen on the iHeartRadio app or wherever.

Bridget Armstrong (54:26)

You listen to podcasts Sponsored by Jasper.

ANTM Contestants / Interviewees (e.g., Lisa D'Amato, Gina Turner, UV Gomez, Renee Alway, etc.) (54:29)

AI Built for marketers, this is an iHeart podcast.