The Set-Up

Summary

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Curse of: America’s Next Top Model

Episode: The Set-Up

Host: Bridget Armstrong
Air Date: September 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In the premiere episode of "Curse of: America’s Next Top Model," host Bridget Armstrong embarks on an investigative journey to uncover the hidden costs of reality television, focusing on the iconic yet controversial show "America’s Next Top Model" (ANTM). Armstrong explores how the show, once seen as a golden ticket to fame, left many contestants with lifelong scars—emotionally, professionally, and culturally. Through interviews with former models, producers, and crew, she examines the legacy of ANTM, the real impact on its participants, and questions whether Tyra Banks is a reality TV villain or a misunderstood visionary.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Most Iconic Reality TV Meltdown (02:02–04:38)

• The "We Were Rooting For You" Moment
  Bridget introduces one of reality TV's most infamous clips: Tyra Banks yelling at contestant Tiffany Richardson during her elimination. This heated exchange has become a pop-culture meme, but Armstrong reveals there’s a deeper story behind it.

  Tyra Banks (02:39): "I have never in my life yelled at a girl like this... I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you!"

  • Behind the Scenes: Sound mixer Jose Torres recounts that Tyra’s outburst was not staged and involved unexpectedly personal remarks that were edited out, showing genuine anger and hurt.

    Jose Torres (05:16): “Tyra took some mean shots... She got personal and didn’t need to.”

  • Armstrong reflects on the impact of this moment, noting it may have revealed the “real” Tyra to viewers.

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2. The Unseen Costs for Contestants (09:25–12:44)

• Broken Promises & Career Setbacks
  Armstrong investigates the claim that ANTM failed to deliver on its core promise: launching successful modeling careers.

  • Cycle 2 Winner Yoanna House (10:51):

    “You spit me out as a winner... now I’m having to look and be a million bucks, but I’m not making any money right now. I’m living on a couch... Yet, I’m famous.”

  • Body Shaming & Trauma:
    Kenya Hill recounts the lasting psychological impact of being portrayed as an overeater, despite being thin.

    Kenya Hill (11:36): “Even still to this day, I am mindful of... is there anybody watching me eat right now? They believed what was portrayed on the show... it has actually been a struggle of just even eating in public.”

  • Industry Backlash:
    Former contestants like Winnie Harlow (Chantel Brown-Young) and Angelea Preston share how their portrayal on the show hindered their careers, with agencies explicitly refusing to sign ANTM alumni.

    Winnie Harlow (13:54): “I really started after the show, ’cause that really didn’t do anything for my career. Which it doesn’t do anything for any model’s career, realistically.”

    Angelea Preston (15:26): “My booker was like, 'he loves you, but he cannot sign you... Basically, they not messing with you.'”

    Gina Turner (16:23): “The agency... does not typically affiliate themselves with girls who have been on the show. It’s just really distracting for a lot of clients... unfortunately she couldn’t sign me and I was really bummed out.”

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3. Genesis of ANTM: Tyra’s Big Idea (21:26–30:09)

• ANTM Was Tyra’s Passion Project
  Armstrong dispels the myth that Tyra was a mere host: ANTM was entirely her idea. The podcast recounts Tyra’s transition from supermodel to media mogul and her vision to diversify beauty standards and pivot her career.

  Tyra Banks (22:28): “I want to do like American Idol, but for models. But they live together like The Real World... a modeling boot camp.”

  Tyra Banks (29:47): “The why for me with this Top Model show is because I want to expand the definition of beauty... you have to be 6ft, 120 lbs, have blonde hair... I want to kick that to the curb.”

• Network Challenges & UPN’s Opportunity
  Tyra struggled to get networks interested. Most rejected her idea until UPN, a network catering to young Black audiences, greenlit her show—giving Tyra more control and ownership (25%).

  Bridget Armstrong (26:26): “I hope she fired that guy... Tyra's over-the-top antics started before she even had a deal. She literally acted out her dream cast... But not enough to fund the show, until UPN came along.”

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4. Reality TV’s Dark Blueprint (34:37–44:23)

• Producer Ken Mok’s “Desperation Formula”
  Armstrong introduces Ken Mok, the showrunner, who’s behind multiple reality TV “kingmaker” formats (like Making the Band). His formula: exploit the dreams of desperate contestants, put them through humiliating or dangerous tasks regardless of actual talent, and let a charismatic host judge their worthiness.

  Amanda Kline (35:21): “First you find people who are desperate to attain something they couldn’t otherwise... then you offer them that thing in a way that seems like a shortcut or a cheat code... then you put them through embarrassing, stressful, and demeaning experiences...”

• Comparison with Other Kingmaker Hosts
  Ken Mok's previous shows featured problematic figures (Lou Pearlman, Sean 'Diddy' Combs), both later disgraced for abuse and exploitation, highlighting a pattern of blurred ethics in early reality TV.

  Bridget Armstrong (41:35): “I never thought I’d be mentioning Tyra Banks next to these two criminals, but her legacy is tied together with Ken Mok’s in the shady early days of reality TV.”

  • Ken Mok’s Pivotal Role
    The show's key moments—good and bad—required Ken Mok’s approval, emphasizing this was a deliberate system.

    Jose Torres (43:03): “Any of the major events that happened on that show, they did not happen without Ken Mok’s approval... Ken Mok signed off.”

• The “Set-Up” Theory
  Armstrong ends with the uncomfortable question: Was the ANTM “curse” simply the result of the fashion industry? Or was the show rigged so only one person—Tyra—could truly ‘win’?

  Bridget Armstrong (44:23): “When I first started reporting, I thought this was an unfortunate reality of the modeling world. Maybe the winners turned out to be flops because they didn’t have what it took to be on top. But now I’m wondering if the show was a setup all along.”

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5. Promises, Ethics, and the Search for Answers (45:01–End)

• The Legacy & Lingering Questions

  • Some contestants say the show saved them, others say it ruined their lives.
  • Armstrong previews the season: stories of hope, trauma, broken contracts, and the personal toll on young women whose dreams were televised for entertainment.

  Various Contestants (45:01):
  - “Being on America’s Next Top Model actually saved my life.”
  - “Did they even know I was in debt?”
  - “After the show, they just kept focusing on me being suicidal...”

  • Cliffhanger for Next Episode:
    Armstrong promises a deep dive into Cycle 1’s production and more revelations on how the show misled its contestants and viewers.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Tyra’s Outburst (02:39):

  "I have never in my life yelled at a girl like this... I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you!"

• On ANTM’s Impact (10:51), Yoanna House:

  "You spit me out as a winner... and now I'm having to look and be a million bucks, but I'm not making any money right now. I'm living on a couch... yet, I'm famous."

• On the Modeling Industry’s Rejection, Winnie Harlow (13:54):

  "I really started after the show, 'cause that really didn't do anything for my career... I thought that was gonna be a career starter, but it was really like a reality TV show."

• Ken Mok’s Reality Formula, Amanda Kline (35:21):

  "Put them through embarrassing, stressful and demeaning experiences in order to prove their worthiness for the grand prize..."

• Bridget Armstrong’s Reflection (44:23):

  "Maybe the winners turned out to be... flops because they didn’t have what it took to be on top. But now I'm wondering if the show was a setup all along."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:02–04:38: The "We were rooting for you" meltdown—breakdown and behind the scenes.
• 09:25–13:23: Contestants’ post-show struggles and body shaming.
• 16:23–16:44: Agencies refusing to hire ANTM alumni.
• 21:26–30:09: Origin story—Tyra’s idea, pitching the show, UPN’s embrace.
• 34:37–44:23: Producer influence, reality TV ethics, and the exploitation blueprint.
• 45:01–45:47: Contestant testimonials and Armstrong’s thesis moving forward.

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Tone and Style

Bridget Armstrong’s narration blends investigative journalism with nostalgia and personal anecdotes, maintaining a critical yet empathetic tone. She candidly admits her past admiration for the show, gradually revealing the darker truths beneath ANTM’s glitzy surface. The episode features candid, sometimes emotional testimonies from former contestants and crew, underscored by a sense of betrayal and reckoning with reality TV’s legacy.

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Closing

Armstrong sets up the season as an in-depth exploration of whether the so-called "curse" is real, the toll it took on participants, and what it says about our culture. The next episode promises to deconstruct Cycle 1, examining deception and mismanaged promises from the very start.

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For listeners new and old, this episode lifts the lid on America's Next Top Model, challenging its place in pop culture and reality TV history.

Transcript

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To change how you do business.

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[Bridget Armstrong]

Stop.

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[Bridget Armstrong]

If you've ever watched America's Next Top Model, or even if you haven't, you probably recognize this scene coming here with a defeatist attitude.

[Tyra Banks]

I don't have a bad attitude. Maybe I am angry inside. I've been through stuff, so I'm angry, yes, but just not. This is not. Be quiet to anybody. Be quiet. That's what is wrong with you. Stop it.

[Bridget Armstrong]

On the surface, it's Tyra Banks finally losing her patience on a seemingly apathetic contestant named Tiffany Richardson. Tiffany had just been eliminated from the competition and Tyra was disappointed in her attitude. But there's something deeper going on here.

[Tyra Banks]

I have never in my life yelled at a girl like this. When my mother yells at this, it's because she loves me. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you learn something from this?

[Bridget Armstrong]

It's become one of the most iconic moments in all of reality TV history, Maybe in all of pop culture history. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. Those words have transcended their context. They've become a meme and a catchphrase. That Moment aired on April 13, 2005, just a few days short of my 17th birthday, and I was one of the 5.5 million people watching it live. For a long time, I thought I understood that moment. But after doing some digging and talking to the models and crew members who were there that day, I found out I had no clue. If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, why don't you help her? I'm just clutching my pearls. Okay.

[Tyra Banks]

At this point, it is, ooh, scary. It's the same feeling that you get.

[Bridget Armstrong]

When your mom is cursing out your sibling.

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There was a huge chunk that got cut out of that. Tyra got real personal with her, and she hit her below the belt.

[Tyra Banks]

I cried every freaking episode.

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I cried so much. I was just like, I'm not crying no more.

[Tyra Banks]

You want me to go home?

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Go home.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Like, I'm not finna beg to be here. People often wonder if that moment was staged. And while a lot of the stuff that happened on America's Next Top Model, or antm, was, according to everyone I spoke to and Tiffany Richardson herself, the I was rooting for you moment was not staged. That was real emotion. And it's one of the few times we see Tyra's wig slip. A moment where we see the real her.

[Tyra Banks]

When you go to bed at night, you lay there and you take responsibility for yourself. Cause nobody's gonna take responsibility for you. You roll in your eyes and you act like this. Cause you've heard it all before. You've heard it all before. You don't know where the hell I come from. You have no idea what I've been through. But I'm not a victim. I grow from it, and I learn. Take responsibility for yourself.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I've been looking into what happened on set that day, and I've talked to people from every part of the ANTM production, like Jose Torres. He was a sound mixer on the show for 20 seasons, and he was there during the we were rooting for you moment.

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Tyra took some mean shots, and a lot of it felt like she was personally invested in her. But she said some things to her about, what are you going to do when you go back home? And you're sleeping on that mattress again when it's just you and your baby, you know? She got personal and she didn't need to. But I could see she was really pissed off.

[Bridget Armstrong]

For the past six months, I've interviewed dozens of contestants, producers and crew members about their experiences on the show. I've been sent contracts and heard about dubious psych evaluations. I've been told about dangerous photo shoots and production standards that sound more like psychological experiments. I've heard about body shaming that cause lifelong trauma and edits that ruin people's careers. I wanted to know everything from how this show got made to what really happened behind the scenes. I wanted to figure out why ANTM had so much, so many of us in a chokehold and the effect it had on us, the audience. I wanted to know if the price the contestants paid for their 15 minutes of fame was really worth it. And I wanted to figure out if the show was cursed, like so many people say, and if it was, who were the real victims of the curse. Now let's go on this investigative journey so we can figure this out together. Wanna be on top? Wanna be? I'm Bridget Armstrong, and this is the curse of America's Next Top Model. A deep dive into one of the most iconic and problematic shows in American history. When ANTM premiered in 2003, it felt like it was the first reality show for someone like me. I wouldn't say I ever wanted to be a model, but I certainly thought that with my high top Melissa Jelly sneakers, the Girls who Know no and my low Rise d' Ilias jeans, I was a fashion girly. While my peers were rocking micro braids, I printed out a picture of Eva, the divas makeover haircut from Cycle three. Took it to my stylist and said, give me that. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say ANTM had an impact on the woman I became. And I know I'm not the only one. For millennial women, the influence of the show was inescapable. Even if you didn't watch, it was in the air around you. And in a way, it's still embedded in our pop culture all these years later. And I would know because I still love reality TV and pop culture. So much so that I've made a whole career out of it. I've spent the last 15 years as a producer covering pop culture, from NPR to boxing media to the skim. The thing that's always fascinated me about pop culture is that it's a reflection of our society, of who we are. It's what we choose to create and consume. And even if we don't want to admit it, it's a reflection of our values and beliefs. That's what makes America's Next Top Model such an interesting case study. In a lot of ways, it's a time capsule of us. And when the ANTM time capsule was opened in 2020, many of us were horrified at what we saw. Welcome back to another episode of why America's Next Top Model is the Most Toxic show of Its Decade.

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Robyn was getting body shamed and age.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Shamed the worst out of all of them. And I just need to talk about some of the makeovers that still make me mad to this day. Antm, especially in the early seasons, is riddled with body shaming and misguided and ignorant views on sexuality and race. The things that didn't seem deep to us back then now seem deeply problematic. In every speaking engagement Tyra's done since 2020, she's had to address the backlash. Here she is in 2025 accepting a Luminary Spotlight Award from Essence, and she's still talking about the ANTM controversy.

[Tyra Banks]

Did we get it right? Hell no. I said some dumb shit, but I refuse to to have my legacy be about some stuff linked together on the Internet when there were 24 cycles of changing the world.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Tyra's right, they did say some dumb shit. But here's the thing. Even with my 2025 sensibilities and maturity, when I rewatch America's Next Top Model, there's something about it that's still so good. There's a reason why it lasted for 21st seasons and why it's been adapted in 50 countries, why there are so many Reddit pages with thousands of posts dedicated to reliving ANTM's best moments, and why at its peak, it drew over 7 million viewers an episode. Even with all the problematic shit, there's something magical about America's Next Top Model, at least for the audience. But for the models, it's more complicated. Today, many of them are speaking out about the negative experiences they had on the show. Take Ioanna House. She won the competition on Cycle two, but in that year afterwards, she didn't feel like she won much of anything. She was flat broke and she wasn't getting any help from ANTM. Here's iOanna.

[Tyra Banks]

It was really hard to not get.

[Bridget Armstrong]

In that head space of being bitter.

[Tyra Banks]

Towards the show because you spit me.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Out as a winner. I won it. Rightfully so. And now I'm having to look and be a million bucks, but I'm not making any money right now.

[Tyra Banks]

I'm living on a couch. From a makeup artist who extended their couch for me. Yet I'm famous.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And Cycle four finalist Kenya Hill, whose entire storyline on the show was about how much she ate. Kenya was thin. She just wasn't afraid to eat on camera. So producers decided a good storyline for her would be about her supposed overeating that caused her to gain weight uncontrollably, which wasn't true.

[Tyra Banks]

Even still to this day, I am mindful of. Is there anybody watching me eat right now? They believed what was portrayed on the show, and so that has actually been.

[Bridget Armstrong]

A struggle of just even eating in public. I've heard a lot of disturbing stories, and you will too, as this season goes on. But out of all the criticisms and complaints the contestants say the biggest one is that the show was never really rooting for them. That ANTM failed to deliver the one thing it repeatedly promised. A career in the high fashion modeling industry. In fact, only one contestant went on to achieve Top Model stardom That's anything close to Tyra's career, and that was Winnie Harlow. She's probably one of the most recognizable women in fashion today. She has a true, one of a kind look. She has vitiligo, a condition that causes patches of skin to lose their color. It makes her incredibly striking. When she was on ANTM cycle 21, she went by her real name, Chantel, and she was eliminated on the fourth episode, brought back, and then eliminated again on episode 13. When she was first eliminated, it was for an optical illusion photoshoot. In her picture, she's perched in this awkward sitting position, and she looks like she's wearing her shoulders as earrings. I don't know if this was her best picture, but you can certainly see why the judges sent her home.

[Tyra Banks]

Chantel, here you are looking so beautiful, but we feel like all this beauty is being thrown away. The judges and social media are not happy with your photo.

[Bridget Armstrong]

After she was eliminated, Winnie went on to have a hugely successful career. She's walked the Victoria's Secret Runway. She was in Beyonce's visual album Lemonade. She's been on the COVID of Elle magazine, Harper's Bazaar, Vogue, Grease, Vogue, India. She's that girl. But according to Winnie, ANTM didn't help her modeling career at all. Here she is on Watch what happens live.

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I mean, you were on America's Next Top Model. You did great. But then you really broke through, and here we are.

[Bridget Armstrong]

So I really started after the show. Cause that really didn't do anything for my career, which it doesn't do anything for any model's career. Realistically. I went on because I thought like that was gonna be a career starter, but it was really like a reality TV show. That's not what I signed up for. I mean, it is what she signed up for. She just thought she was gonna get a lot more out of it. Season after season, we saw dozens of models compete for a career making opportunity. And we watched one model be crowned the winner of antm. But when they didn't appear on the COVID of Vogue or walk the Chanel or Dior runways, when they didn't actually become top models, it didn't stop us from tuning in the next season because it wasn't about that. The show was entertain. Sure, some contestants did work as models after the show, and some used their fame to launch careers in other areas of entertainment. But if this was a show that was really about creating top models, why are there so many contestants who say being on it actually hurt their chances in the fashion industry? Like Angelee Preston, who first competed on cycle 14 and then later on all star 17. After the show ended, she wasn't booking modeling gigs and she didn't know why until a friend in the industry told her the truth. My booker was like, he loves you, but he cannot sign you and he can't work with you because of how you were portrayed. Basically they not messing with you. And I was so gutted because I.

[Tyra Banks]

Was just like, why did I go.

[Bridget Armstrong]

On the Angelee was portrayed as a girl who'd left the hood but couldn't quite get the hood to leave her. But when she came back for the All Star season, she'd had a glow up. It wasn't that her look had changed, it was the way she carried herself. And the judges noticed. She was crowned the winner of ANTM All Stars. But she didn't keep that title long. ANTM stripped her of her win. And after she couldn't buy any modeling jobs. But that's a story we'll get into later this season. Angelea wasn't the only model who told me she had a hard time finding representation after being on antm. Gina Turner was on the final cycle of antm. You may remember her clean, bald haircut that gave her an otherworldly look. After she left Top Model, she had trouble finding an agent who would sign her.

[Tyra Banks]

I did have an agent tell me she knew I was not America's accent model and that as much as she.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Loved my look and would have loved.

[Tyra Banks]

To sign into the agency. The agency, unfortunately does not typically affiliate themselves with girls who have been on the show. It's just really distracting for a lot of clients and that, you know, she was happy to meet me, but unfortunately she couldn't sign me and I was really bummed out.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Of course, for this show, I had to call Lisa d'. Amato. She's probably one of the most, most infamous contestants from ANTM because of her wild child antics, like the time she peed in a diaper on the set of a photo shoot on Cycle five. She's also known because to this day, she still trashes ANTM every chance she gets. I couldn't get an agency. They're like, we can't book you for anything. The clients that I would normally see for, like Neutrogena or Crest or, you know, any type of catalog, no one wanted to see me after the show. They completely destroyed me. This is how a lot of contestants talk about Tyra in ANTM today. But I don't think it was Tyra's initial intention to ruin their careers. Coming up, we're going to dive into the origins of America's Next Top Model when a young Tyra Banks came up with an idea to launch her second act. An idea that would propel wannabe models into supermodel stardom. But as we know, only one of those things became a reality.

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[Variety Podcast Host]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

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Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Variety Podcast Host]

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[Tyra Banks]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Variety Podcast Host]

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety, and listen now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistants as a major productivity tool. Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bissell, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent.

[Brian Bissell]

As a new student, you may not know how do I deal with my health and wellness issue? How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you don't.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Want to do that, bissell told me. You could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them more time to focus on their actual schoolwork.

[Brian Bissell]

We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive, automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work over and over again and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit IBM.com.

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[Bridget Armstrong]

When we talk about ANTM today, it's usually about how problematic it was or the fact that it didn't really produce top models and that it featured rampant body shaming in so called race swapping photo shoots. Critics of the show usually fall into one of two camps. You either believe Tyra was an evil mastermind responsible for everything wrong with antm, or you believe she was just a host, a pretty face brought in to anchor a modeling competition just doing what she was told by sinister faceless execs. The first thing I learned in reporting this podcast is that the second option is not true. America's Next Top Model was Tyra's idea. It was her baby, her passion project. So let's go back to the beginning to figure out how this germ of an idea in Tyra's mind became a pop culture phenomenon.

[Tyra Banks]

Where'd you get the idea for that show? That is such a good idea. It's a weird.

[Bridget Armstrong]

It was 2002. Tyra Banks was in her late 20s and looking for her next move, Oprah.

[Tyra Banks]

I looked out the window and had this beautiful view and it came to me. I was like, I want to do like an American Idol, but for models. But they live together like the real world.

[Bridget Armstrong]

A modeling boot camp. Based on her early career, those scrappy years when she was just trying to become a supermodel, Tyra started modeling when she was still a teenager. A girl at school came up to her and told her she had the.

[Tyra Banks]

Right look, she was a beautiful girl. And she was like, you know, you look like you should be a model. Anybody tell you you'd model, you model. And I was like, what? You know, people stare at me, but not for that. And she kind of took me under her wing and taught me everything. And she started modeling, I think later in the ninth grade. She started kind of early, and then I started in the 11th grade when I was 15.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And at first, Tyra actually got rejected by a lot of agencies. But all you need is one. Yes. And she got that when she was 17. So she packed her bags and went to Paris alone. She went to casting after casting, walked Runway after Runway to make it to the top. And this was a time when there were very few black supermodels and Tyra was no Gigi Hadid. She didn't have the benefit of nepotism. She had to get it out the mud. Here's a CNN segment about her rise to fame.

[Tyra Banks]

19 year old Tyra Banks uses her chameleon like ability to change her attitude as often as she changes her clothes. One minute she shy and demure, the next, sultry and Sexy, Tyra stands 5ft 11 inches and is sashaying her way to international fame.

[Bridget Armstrong]

In the span of a decade, which is quite a long career for a model, Tyra became the first black woman to do the COVID of GQ and Sports Illustrated. And she eventually went on to become one of the most recognizable Victoria's Secret Angels. But from the beginning, Tyra knew her modeling career was Temporary. She was always planning her next big thing. Here she is at age 19.

[Tyra Banks]

I'd like to reach my peak at around 23 or 24, like five years from now, I guess, and move on to something else. What do you want to do besides modeling? Go on to film and television first. Maybe as an actress to learn that side of the camera. But that's not my main goal. I mean, that's not what I want to do. I want to be on the other side of the camera, like writing for film and television.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And she made the first part happen. Tyra did TV appearances like this one where she played Will Smith's homegirl Jackie on the fresh prince.

[Tyra Banks]

That's it. I didn't come all the way here from Philly to, oh, it's gonna happen.

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Throw me all over my crib.

[Tyra Banks]

You know what? You ain't never gonna change. I'm getting. Oh, no, you not. Fuck yourself.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Oh, my gosh. I remember that episode. And Tyra nailed it. She had a pretty significant role in the 1995 film Higher Learning. She was even in a Disney movie with Lindsay Lohan called life size, where she played a doll come to life. So by the early 2000s, Tyra was a household name. But she was also in her late 20s. And if there's anything ANTM taught me, it's that if you're over the age of 22, you might as well be dead. In the modeling industry, some models use their beauty to pivot into serious acting careers, like Charlize theron or Cameron d. Others were content to fade into the shadows to become fashion icons of yesteryear. But Tyra was determined to roll her fame into something even bigger.

[Tyra Banks]

Because I'm not satisfied with just my career now. I mean, I always want more.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I always want to do more.

[Tyra Banks]

I never, like, just stop and get satisfied with something.

[Bridget Armstrong]

So that's when Tyra got her billion dollar idea. A show that would use her expertise in modeling and launch her career in tv. And just like she had to fight to make it on the Runway, Tyra had to fight to get a and t M made. When Tyra initially came up with the show, her agent told her it was a bad idea.

[Tyra Banks]

I had a lot of people tell me that this wasn't going to work, that models are unsympathetic characters. Actually, he's my agent. He told me models are unsympathetic characters. Nobody wants to see this.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I hope she fired that guy. But Tyra knew she had something special, so she kept telling people about her little reality. Show idea until she found someone who saw the vision. An established television producer named Ken Mock. A friend introduced Tyra and Ken. They had a two hour meeting and he was sold. They decided to be partners on this project. Ken had already produced a few reality shows, so he had some connections. And he helped her set up meetings to pitch the show to networks. And they got a lot of no's.

[Tyra Banks]

And we pitched it like I stood up cause I knew who I wanted my cast to be. I walk and acted like Miss J. Honey Cabbage. I know you don't. I did the whole thing for all of the networks. I sure did. I acted out everybody. They must have loved it. They loved it. Not everybody bought it, but they loved it.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Tyra's over the top antics started before she even had a deal. She was in those boardrooms putting on a one woman show. She literally acted out her dream cast and people loved it. But not enough to fund the show. That was until she met with an exec from CBS named Gin Maynard, who also told her it was a no for cbs. But he did think it could be good for a smaller network. He oversaw upn. UPN didn't have as wide of a reach as cbs. It targeted a smaller demographic. And I was in that smaller demographic. By 2003, the golden era of 90s black sitcoms had ended. So UPN stepped in to fill in the gap. And I used to love me some UPN. Half and half, 101, Moesha, the Parkers. While it didn't cast as wide of a net as other networks, a lot of UPN's programming was younger and blacker. It featured shows that starred black leads and majority black cast. At a time when other networks were basically pretending like black people didn't exist. For a while, that really worked for upn. They had the market cornered on scripted programming with black leads. BET obviously was the other network that featured black celebrities. But they had more unscripted shows and music countdowns and that was really it. If you wanted to see more than two black people on TV at the same time, here's Raquel Gates, an associate professor of film at Columbia University. She studies, writes and teaches about television, particularly through the lens of race and culture. UPN and the WB really follow in.

[Tyra Banks]

The line of Fox network in the 90s where you have these new networks that realize that younger audiences, black audiences are a really safe bet in terms.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Of getting eyeballs on the screens and on the programming. Initially, UPN heard the pitch as a courtesy. But after meeting with Tyra, they realized she wasn't just a pretty face, she was an entertainer. And they decided to take a chance on the show. They greenlit it for one season. Tyra was a little disappointed at first. She envisioned her project on a more mainstream network, but to me, the placement on UPN made a lot of sense. Tyra was one of a small handful of black supermodels, and from the beginning, Tyra said she wanted ANTM to feature diverse beauty to challenge the rigid standards of the high fashion world. Here's Tyra reflecting back on her initial vision for the show.

[Tyra Banks]

The why for me with this Top Model show is because I want to expand the definition of beauty. I want to kick to the curb this thing about this cookie cutter and you have to be 6ft 120lbs, have blonde hair and da da, you know, like all that. I was like, I want to kick that to the curb.

[Bridget Armstrong]

That's funny because at least when it came to looks, the first two winners didn't exactly break the mold. They were both 6ft tall, skinny white women. They just weren't blonde. But that's a different conversation. For Tyra, getting the opportunity to bring this show to life overshadowed her disappointment of not being on cbs. Plus, she realized one of the perks of being a big fish in a small pond was that she had more control. Tyra owned 25% of America's Next Top Model. ANTM was part of Tyra's larger plan for her career. She wanted to be Oprah, and she said as much in a 2004 interview with Newsweek. Top Model was supposed to be her first step towards becoming a media mogul. After the break, the story of how Tyra's big idea made it to our TV screens.

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[Variety Podcast Host]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

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Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Variety Podcast Host]

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosts by co editor in chief Cynthia Littleton.

[Tyra Banks]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Variety Podcast Host]

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. I recently recorded the first episode of Smart Talks with IBM, where I learned how AI agents are joining AI assistants as a major productivity tool. Let's start with AI agents. AI agents can reason, plan and collaborate with other AI tools to autonomously perform tasks for a user. Brian Bitzel, an expert from IBM, gave me an example of how a college freshman might use an AI agent As.

[Brian Bissell]

A new student, you may not know how do I deal with my health and wellness issue. How many credits am I going to get for this given class? You could talk to someone and find out some of that, but maybe it's a little bit sensitive and you you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Don'T want to do that, bissell told me. You could build an AI agent, a resource for new students that helps them navigate a new campus, register for classes, access the services they need, and even schedule appointments on their behalf, which in turn buys them more time to focus on their actual schoolwork.

[Brian Bissell]

We can see patterns of how agents and assistants can help employees and customers and end users be more productive, automate workflows so they're not doing certain types of repetitive work over and over again and streamlining their lives and making data more accessible to them 24 hours a day.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

To learn more about IBM's AI agents and how they can help your business, visit IBM.com agents.

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[Bridget Armstrong]

Tyra Banks had drive, she had vision and she certainly had that it factor. The only thing she didn't have was reality TV production experience. That's where her new collaborator, Ken Mock came in. Here's an interview with Ken Mock from 2017, 2016, where the interviewer talks about Ken Mock's reality TV legacy. You've been called the godfather of reality TV. You produced making the Band, which I think was the forerunner to all these singing audition programs that we have today. You did Pussycat Dolls present and of course your most successful hit so far, America's Next Top Model. Let's talk about Kim Mak's formula for making a good reality competition show. First you find people who are desperate to attain something they couldn't otherwise. Then you offer them that thing in a way that seems like a shortcut or a cheat code. Next, you turn on the cameras and this is very important. You put them through embarrassing, stressful and demeaning experiences in order to prove their worthiness for the grand prize. This was the formula Ken Mok used before on another reality show you may have heard of that hasn't aged well. It was called Making the band the big figure. Over it was Sean Puff Daddy Combs. That's Amanda Cline, a reality TV historian and expert. Making the Band was like antm, but for music groups. The show was famous for making these young musicians perform demeaning tasks at Sean Combs request. Like the iconic cheesecake incident where Diddy asked the contestants to walk the six plus miles from Manhattan to Brooklyn to deliver him a piece of cheesecake from juniors. The rumor is the cheesecake was actually for Beyonce who was working with him in the studio. Puffy just told us to go to.

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The store in Brooklyn and bring him.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Back a cheesecake and walk. No, it's called making the not making the bed.

[Tyra Banks]

I said we go back and tell him we ain't doing it.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Got too much. This is slave labor right here, man. It is my boy. Hey. It was a task that had nothing to do with how well these people rapped or sang. It was about entertaining the audience. I don't know whose idea that was. But America's Next Top Model is also notorious for putting models in difficult and yes, sometimes demeaning and even dangerous situations that seemed to be strictly for our entertainment and had nothing to do with modeling. And that isn't the only parallel. The last part of Kim Mok's formula is an expert host with a larger than life personality. Someone who could get the contestants to do the demeaning tasks. The host needed to be someone who could make or break the contestants careers. Now whether they would actually make their career, that's another story. But Kenmock needed someone whose very presence on set raised the stakes for the contestants and for us. Someone who these contestants would would do anything to impress on Making the band. It was Sean Combs. He'd already launched the careers of some of the most successful artists in hip hop. And when Ken met Tyra Banks, he saw the same potential. She was a veteran supermodel who'd climbed to the top of the fashion industry. It makes sense that Ken Mock would kind of stick with that idea of a kingmaker. Tyra Banks has this right where she can pick out the model. Now, here's where we need to talk about some disturbing coincidences. The first three seasons of Making the Band before it went to MTV and Diddy became the host followed the journey to bring together, train and launch a boy band called O Town. Their first music industry expert and guide was a man named Lew Perlman.

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Hey, all you singers out there, Lou Perlman, the mastermind behind such bands as lfo, Inside and the Backstreet Boys, is looking for five talented young men to form a new band.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Lou Perlman made his name by launching and managing some of the most successful boy bands in the 90s and 2000s. He died in prison in disgrace in 2016 after being convicted of running one of the largest Ponzi schemes in U.S. history. He was also accused by multiple young male performers of sexual misconduct. The person who took Perlman's spot on Making the Band after he left was Sean P. Diddy Combs. And we all know what he's been accused of, including allegations of abuse, sexual misconduct, harassment, and intimidation by former Making the Band cast members. At least one of those contestants, Sarah Rivers, sued Diddy for sexual harassment she said took place during the taping of Making the Band. To be clear, there's no evidence Ken Mock knew about any of that while the shows were airing. And while he remained credited as the show's creator during Diddy's tenure, he reportedly took a more hands off role in later seasons. But it is striking that on both these shows, the kingmakers at the center were later accused of abusing their power. And here's the thing. Years before these serious allegations against Sean Combs and Lou Perlman came to light, both of these men already had a reputation for shady business dealings. In the late 90s and early 2000s, Diddy was accused of unfair business practices by several of his artists, including Mace 112 and hip hop group The Locks. Here's a 2005 radio interview with the Locks where Jadakiss confronted Diddy.

[Tyra Banks]

So why don't we stop talking on.

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The radio now you want people to stop talking? Cause you just don't want to know the truth, dog. We made one record with you. Money that I respect is 10 years later, and you still got half of our publishing.

[Bridget Armstrong]

That wasn't all. Diddy was literally on trial for shooting someone in a nightclub in 1999. He was acquitted, but the rapper, who was convicted, who was also signed to Bad Boy, has strongly implied that he took the fall for Diddy. And Lou Perlman's affinity for 360 deals was well known in the pop music industry. Here's NSync's Lance Vass talking about him. Lou really thought he was just entitled to all of this. You know, if it was his idea, you know, to do this and he.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Introduced you this person to get you.

[Bridget Armstrong]

That record deal, then, yeah, he was entitled to 90% of your business, because if it wasn't for him, you'd be nothing. So do you want 10% or nothing? That was all out in the open before either of them was hired on making the band. So even if the show's producers didn't know about the more serious allegations, they seem to have turned a blind eye to the allegedly unethical business practices. Making the band worked with a con artist because he made good tv. Then they worked with a guy who was accused of shooting someone and cheating his artist because he made better tv. Now, I'm not saying Tyra was on the same level as Diddy or Lou Perlman. She's never been accused of sexual misconduct or any other crime. But the point is, in the early days of reality tv, the ethical lines were quite blurred. The only thing that mattered was if the show was a success. And the show Kenmock created positioned not one, but two ethically dubious men as mentors to impressionable young people. And while Tyra may not be a supervillain like Diddy, she chose to partner with the man who gave him and Lou Perlman a bigger platform. And just like we saw on making the band, she was willing to make humiliation a big part of America's Next Top Model. The model's safety, their bodies, their appearance, their identity was put on the line and picked apart for our entertainment.

[Tyra Banks]

Do you really think you can have a CoverGirl contract with the gap in your mouth? Yes. Why not? This is all people see. It's easy reads.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Beautiful covergirl.

[Tyra Banks]

Oh, Lord, baby girl, she felt wise. I was like, oh, my God. Gosh, you're trying to be so sexy and so girly, and you look like a man. In a dress girl. Now.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I never thought I'd be mentioning Tyra Banks name next to these two criminals, but her legacy is tied together with Kim Mox in the shady early days of reality tv. And Ken wasn't just an EP on paper, he was there calling the shots on set. Here's former ANTM sound mixer Jose Torres.

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Any of the major events that happened on that show, they did not happen without Ken Mock's approval, without his say so. Good or bad, if anything happened on that show, Ken Mock signed off.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Tyra could not have made this show without her co pilot, Ken Mock. Sure, they were just the production team making another reality show when reality TV was still in its wild, wild west era. But what I've heard from models over and over is that America's Next Top Model took advantage of their dreams. And the models who were on the earlier seasons had no idea what this show really was. There's something kind of cruel about embarrassing young people who trust you with their dreams. These aren't the same people who signed up to starve on Survivor in order to win a million dollars. These were mostly teenagers and young adults who were told this opportunity could give them access to the otherwise inaccessible career they desperately wanted. There's this idea that ANTM was cursed because so few of the contestants went on to have successful careers as models. When I first started reporting, I thought this was an unfortunate reality of the modeling world. Maybe the winners turned out to be fashion industry flops because they didn't have what it took to be on top. But now I'm wondering if the show was a setup all along.

[Tyra Banks]

America's Next Top Model is about dreams, plain and simple. And it's about accomplishing these dreams through hard work, talent, and passion. I worked my butt off to get to the top of the modeling industry, so I know exactly what it takes.

[Bridget Armstrong]

To make a star. Tyra wanted us to believe she was wholeheartedly invested in making these contestants dreams come true.

[Tyra Banks]

I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. How dare you.

[Bridget Armstrong]

But after talking to the models and the people behind the scenes, I'm not too sure on this season you're going to hear from ANTM fans and critics, the show's producers, and of course, the models themselves.

[Tyra Banks]

Being on America's Next Top Model actually saved my life.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Did they even know that I was in debt?

[Tyra Banks]

After the show, they just kept focusing on me being suicidal to try to.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Figure out if ANTM was really cursed and what that means for the models, judges, Tyra, and us. The audience on the next episode. We're going back to where it all began. Cycle one, a season that looked like it was shot on a camcorder, yet somehow launched a global franchise. We'll meet the very first contestants, revisit the chaotic production, and uncover how ANTM deceived us and the contestants right through the the start. Tyra Banks did not follow through on any of the winnings. Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. We really appreciate the support. We'd love for you to really show your support by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to leave us a five star rating and review. If you love the show, tell your group chat, your co workers, your friends, your mama to check us out. And if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself. Thanks again to all of our listeners. The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me, Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Alicia Key, Kristin Melcurry and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers are Oliver Twixt and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krenchek. Audio editing and mixing by Andrew Calloway and Matt Del Vecchio. The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme music was composed by Oliver Bain Music Library provided by My Music. Special thanks to everyone we interviewed for this podcast, especially the models for sharing their stories and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Also check out the Glass Podcast Instagram lasspodcast for Curse of America's Next Top Model. Behind the Scenes content and more.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Stop settling for weak sound. It's time to level up your game and bring the boom. Hit the town with the ultra durable LG X Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go. Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it. The future of sound is now with LG XBoom and for a limited time save [e-mail] with code fall25. Bring the Boom XBoom.

[Variety Podcast Host]

There's a lot going on in Hollywood. How are you supposed to stay on top of it all? Variety has the solution. Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

[LG X Boom Advertiser]

Where do you see the business actually heading?

[Variety Podcast Host]

Featuring the iconic iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co Editor in Chief Cynthia Littleton.

[Tyra Banks]

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

[Variety Podcast Host]

Open your free iHeartradio app, search daily Variety and listen now.

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