Yeah, Tyra's a Villain | BONUS Pt. 1

Summary

Curse of: America’s Next Top Model
Episode: Yeah, Tyra's a Villain | BONUS Pt. 1
Date: March 2, 2026
Host: Bridget Armstrong with Editor Monique Laborde

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Episode Overview

In this bonus episode of "Curse of: America’s Next Top Model," host Bridget Armstrong and her editor Monique Laborde react to the surge of conversation around America’s Next Top Model (ANTM) following the release of the Netflix docuseries, “Reality Inside America’s Next Top Model”. They reflect on the parallels between the doc and their own investigative podcast, discuss exclusive details and omissions, and attempt to answer the increasingly viral question: is Tyra Banks the ultimate reality TV villain? The duo explores new revelations, the persistent lack of accountability from those in power, the true human cost to the models, and broader cultural dynamics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Reckoning for ANTM & Tyra Banks (02:54–06:21)

• The release of the Netflix docuseries has reignited public discourse around ANTM, despite intensive coverage already tackled by this podcast.
• Bridget and Monique share the experience of watching the docuseries as podcasters who already did a deep dive on ANTM. They note significant overlaps and some surprising new information.
• Quote: “Honestly, I was like, they jacked our shit. That was my first reaction.” —Bridget Armstrong (06:21)

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2. Comparing Podcast vs. Docuseries – Synchronicities, Divergences & Visual Impact (06:21–22:07)

• Many storylines and editorial choices mirrored those made in the podcast, especially starting with the iconic “We were rooting for you!” moment.
• The Netflix docuseries covered Shandy’s story in detail – a harrowing case of sexual assault glossed over at the time – that Bridget and Monique had not explored due to interview limitations.
• They reflect on the emotional intensity of confronting these stories visually:
  • Seeing how young the contestants really were drives home the vulnerability and immaturity of the show’s participants (15:09–17:41).
  • The jarring contrast between models’ actual bodies and the criticism they received for supposedly not being thin enough.
  • Visuals made the trauma and physical suffering (fainting, heatstroke, body shaming) impossible to ignore.
• Viewing archival family photos of contestants, such as Ebony, gives a fuller, humanizing picture that audio alone can't provide.
• Quote: “Seeing how thin they are while they’re being reprimanded for not being thin enough—that is the other thing that drove it home.” —Bridget Armstrong (18:44)
• Quote: “You see the terror quickly, and then it cuts to something else. But you have to remember…the shoot itself took 20 minutes.” —Bridget Armstrong (27:55)

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3. Is Tyra Banks a Villain? ANTM’s Power Dynamics (08:24–11:36; 29:26–36:52)

• Tyra’s unapologetic stance in the docuseries shocks Bridget and Monique—she repeats “it was a different time” and places blame on the audience, not taking responsibility.
• Viewers and former contestants continue to grapple with Tyra’s legacy, especially her unwillingness to make amends or acknowledge the show’s damage.
• The docuseries edited Tyra’s reactions side-by-side with survivors’ testimonies for maximum impact.
• Noteworthy, emotional moment: Ms. J’s health struggles (stroke and partial recovery) and complete lack of outreach from Tyra, despite their deep, decades-long history.
  • “If there’s anything I was shocked by, I was shocked by that [Tyra not reaching out to Ms. J].” —Bridget Armstrong (31:20)
• The “villain” question is answered for both hosts: Tyra’s lack of self-awareness and accountability is underlined as a defining issue.
• The docuseries’ leniency toward other judges (the Jays, Nigel) is questioned, given their direct participation in harmful behaviors, including body-shaming and cruel remarks.
  • “They weren’t being forced to say that stuff, the body-shaming stuff…It just doesn't quite sit right.” —Monique Laborde (34:48)

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4. Model Reactions & Notable Absences (11:39–14:41)

• The hosts discuss reactions from notable contestants who were not in the Netflix docuseries, such as Tiffany Richardson and Adrienne Curry.
  • Tiffany has publicly refuted Tyra's claims about caring for her, revealing the infamous “we were rooting for you” tirade was much harsher in reality. The show aired only a fraction.
• Models critique the Netflix doc for spotlighting Tyra more than telling contestants’ full stories, with some feeling it still did not go far enough.
• Quote: “If you really cared about someone, you don’t embarrass them, you don’t treat them like that, you don’t say those kind of things about them, period.” —As recalled from the documentary (13:54)

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5. Behind-the-Scenes: Network, Casting, and Diversity Fights (22:07–23:44; 40:18–43:53)

• The surprising whiteness of UPN’s executives versus the channel’s reputation for Black-targeted programming.
  • “I was literally at my skin, like, why are there so many white people who work for UPN?” —Bridget Armstrong (22:32)
• Tyra and Ken Mok’s stories about fighting for on-screen diversity—including a near-physical altercation with CBS’s Les Moonves over casting a Latina contestant.
• The irony: pushing for diversity was a landmark, but it didn't shield the showrunners from the consequences of how diversity was exploited and tokenized.
  • “Yes, you brought on Black and brown women… but you also treated them all really badly. So it doesn’t really absolve you.” —Bridget Armstrong (42:25)

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6. The Human Cost of Reality TV — Tokenism, Outing, and Exploitation (43:53–47:57)

• The representation of LGBTQ and Black contestants was pathbreaking, especially for teens watching in the 2000s, but came at the expense of the participants’ dignity and agency.
  • Ebony was outed on national TV by Tyra without her consent—another example of “representation at what cost?”
• Ebony’s expectation of solidarity as a young Black woman on a show led by a Black supermodel was heartbreakingly undermined: “It was like, dang, when you even try to give ANTM a bit of credit, somehow you find out that credit isn't even due.” —Bridget Armstrong (47:57)

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7. Shandy’s Story — Assault, Production Setups, and Zero Accountability (07:10, 48:10–54:52)

• For the first time, the docuseries reveals in detail that Shandy’s “cheating” in Season 2 was, in fact, sexual assault: she was blackout drunk, unable to consent, and the situation was engineered by producers who invited men over.
• Production not only filmed her assault but also continued recording its fallout, including her trauma response, STD clinic visit, and a follow-up segment on “The Tyra Show”—despite her protests.
• The crew’s passivity is called out: “Nobody working that night thought to say, hey, let’s go, cameras down, let’s take Shandy to another room. …It’s just flat out unacceptable.” —Monique Laborde (50:07)
• Tyra’s and Ken Mok’s self-exculpatory responses are deemed deeply insufficient, with Tyra claiming ignorance and Mok bragging only that they “chose not to use” even more damaging footage.
• The hosts are withering about the ongoing lack of accountability by those who profited off the “curse” of ANTM.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If there’s any question [about Tyra being a villain], this certainly underlined that she is." —Bridget Armstrong (09:01)
• "Tyra really doesn't get what's going on. I don’t think she gets or she understands how people truly feel about her now." —Bridget Armstrong (09:08)
• "You can’t have it both ways…you say, I was involved in every minute of this show, and also, oh, this horrific thing occurred and I have no knowledge of it." —Monique Laborde (54:15)
• "Representation at what cost, you know?" —Monique Laborde, on Ebony’s forced outing (45:53)
• "The fact that these guys were invited over there…the house was a set, there were producers and a film crew, and nobody working that night thought to say, hey, let’s go, cameras down, let's take Shandy to another room. She can't consent to this. It's just flat out unacceptable." —Monique Laborde (50:07)
• "Had Les Moonves and the other execs won this battle against diversity…It would have looked like Tyra, a Black woman, Jay, the two Jays, two men of color. It would have looked like them sort of being in service of like making…turning these white women into models, which I thought would have been really bad for the optics." —Bridget Armstrong (43:33)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:54 — Start of main content, public discourse after docuseries
• 06:21 — Shock at docuseries’ similarities to podcast
• 07:10 — First mention of Shandy’s sexual assault
• 15:09 — Visual impact: seeing how young, vulnerable models were
• 18:44 — Visual impact: body shaming contrasted with reality
• 22:07 — UPN’s surprisingly white executive suite
• 27:12 — Audiences’ appetite for models’ pain, and production's role
• 29:26 — Impactful moments on Ms. J; update on health and Tyra’s absence
• 31:20 — Tyra’s distance from Ms. J after stroke
• 34:48 — The show’s judges and their share of blame
• 40:18 — Fighting for diversity: Tyra, Ken Mok vs. CBS exec
• 45:53 — Representation at what cost: Ebony’s forced outing
• 48:10 — Shandy’s story: assault & producer manipulation
• 50:07 — Crew’s complicity and multiple production failures
• 54:52 — Closing: Tease for Part 2, more Tyra & Ken Mok analysis

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Conclusion

Bridget Armstrong and Monique Laborde dissect the new wave of ANTM scrutiny prompted by the Netflix docuseries, carefully laying out how the show’s ugly legacy continues to play out for both its participants and its architects. They argue that the cultural costs of reality TV—and Tyra’s unwillingness to reckon with them—are now laid bare in ways far more damning than ever before.

To Be Continued: The conversation continues in Part 2, exploring further responses from Tyra and Ken Mok and a deeper answer to the podcast’s central question: “Is Tyra truly a villain?”

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Transcript

[Bridget Armstrong]

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[Bridget Armstrong]

Wanna be on top? Welcome to the Curse of America's. I'm Bridget Armstrong. Anybody else feel gaslit after watching Tyra in the new Netflix docuseries? It was a time in the world where there was a show, Fear Factor and Survivor and all of these things of like pushing the limits and all of that. And so we kept pushing and we kept creating more and more and more. You guys were demanding it. The viewers wanted more and more, more and more.

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Reality TV is a bitch.

[Bridget Armstrong]

If it doesn't bleed and lead, then it doesn't work. Everybody seems to be talking about ANTM right now because of this docuseries. It's called Reality Inside America's Next Top Model. And this isn't just a moment. This is an ANTM reckoning. There's the Netflix docuseries. There's of course this podcast. And our production company, Glass Entertainment Group, has been working on another docuseries called Dirty Rotten America's Next Top Model, a title that leaves no room for interpretation. And just like antm, Dirty Rotten Scandals is appointment television. It premieres on E. On March 11th at 9pm Eastern Time. I'm going to come back and do another bonus episode with one of the producers from Dirty Rotten Scandals once y' all get a chance to watch it. But while we're all still reeling from Netflix's docuseries, I wanted to hop back on the mic to process my thoughts. We're currently working on Curse of Season two. It's coming out later this year, but for the last week or so since Netflix dropped this docuseries, my editor and I have not been able to stop talking about antm, a subject we thought we put to bed last year. So I invited my editor to join me for a little debrief. And guys, we had so much to talk about. We're actually going to break this conversation up into two parts. So joining me now, you've heard her name all the Time in the credits, the one and only Monique Laborde.

[Monique Laborde]

Hey, Bridget, I'm thrilled to be here on the mic with you. This past season, working on Curse of It was you and me in the trenches, listening to and watching old episodes of antm, shaping the episodes we made for the podcast, selecting the right clips, you know, building episodes around the interviews that you conducted with the models. But I feel like we both gained so much, like, isoteric knowledge about this show, and it's really wild now to see everyone on the same page as we are. And before we get started on this bonus episode, we need to say, spoiler warning. Spoiler alert. If you have not seen the Netflix doc and you want to see it, you should pause, go watch it. If you're like, I know everything already from this podcast and you don't want to watch the Netflix doc, then we'll get you up to speed. This can be your TLDR of the Netflix doc. But just so you know, spoiler warning starting now.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

You know, Bridget, one thing that jumped out at me immediately was the amount of parallels and synchronicities that came up in the Netflix doc. And with our podcast, that was weird to hear and to see it all in video when we had made something really similar. What was your reaction to that?

[Bridget Armstrong]

Honestly, I was like, they jacked our shit. That was my first reaction.

[Monique Laborde]

Right.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I was like, they listen to our podcast and they are doing it Netflix docuseries. But so for me, the biggest one was them starting with the we were rooting for you moment. And at first I was like, okay, that's actually one of the biggest moments of the show. So it could just be a coincidence that we both started there. But then, yeah, there were a lot of, like, archival pieces. Even some of the pieces, the things they were saying about, like, it being a Cinderella story, and that was like, a big through line for us. I saw a lot of similarities, but there was a point where it diverged, and they got into a story that we actually didn't talk about that that much. And that was Shandy's story. Yeah, and Shandy's story was really, really heartbreaking, and it was really, really hard to watch on the docuseries.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, we're gonna get into that more in this bonus episode. I'm really was glad, in a way, that they put it in the Netflix doc that she got the space to say that and that people are paying attention to that. Because when we were producing our podcast, like you said at the beginning, our production company is working on its own documentary. It's coming out in a few weeks, so we had access to some models to interview, but not all of them. And Shandy was one that was attached to the Netflix doc, so we didn't interview her. We didn't. That was new information for me. I didn't know that she was sexually assaulted.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, in the documentary, Shandy doesn't call it sexual assault, maybe even for legal reasons, we don't know, but that's clearly what it was. She was blackout drunk. She couldn't give consent. And in the docu series, you see Shandy describe how awful the whole experience was, and you can tell she's still living with the trauma to this day. She gets really, really emotional. I don't know if seeing that was shocking because, you know, we've been in the trenches on this show, and we know the terrible things that were happening behind the scenes, but it was really, really hard to watch. Mo, were there any other things about the docuseries, like, any other moments or just anything in general that shocked you?

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, I mean, we didn't have access to interviewing Tyra, Ken, and the js. I really liked that our podcast focused more on the model's experience, but hearing directly from Ken, Tyra, and the js, I mean, in particular about the fallout that happened between the Jays and Tyra, that was new insight. And we had this question about, is Tyra a villain? And I think for me, that question was answered watching this Netflix doc in a way that was really disappointing. So, yeah. What about for you? What stood out for you right off the bat?

[Bridget Armstrong]

I mean, yeah, that Tyra's a villain, for sure. Like, if there's any question, this certainly underlined that she is. Cause I was. I was.

[Monique Laborde]

I wasn't.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Again, I wasn't shocked, but I was a bit surprised at how unapologetic Tyra was. You know, she's been criticized a lot about her actions on the show and all the things the show did to the women who participated and since 2020. Right. And so she's been hearing these criticisms for the last five years. And this felt like this was the one opportunity for her to make amends or show accountability or something. Right. And she just. She just really didn't do that. She repeated the same excuses that she's repeated over the last years. We had clips of those same answers, versions of those same answers, and other interviews she did four or five years ago, and she repeated those same talking points. The. It was a different time. This is what you guys Wanted. This is what the audience wanted. And you know, it just showed that she really lacks self awareness. Because even if a person is not sincerely apologetic. Right. I think that even the. The PR in you wants to come off like you are. And she does it really try to do that either. So, yeah, I wasn't shocked, but I was very surprised. My biggest reaction is like, wow, Tyra really doesn't get what's going on. And I don't think she gets or she understands how people truly feel about her now.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. And there was something about seeing her face, confronted with it right next to the side by side of the model, talking about the lifelong impact it's had on them that was really hard, hard to watch and looked bad.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah. I mean, I think on Netflix's part, it was also really effective because I got a sense that maybe Tyra agreed to do the Netflix docuseries for her own reasons. Right. To promote something or to make her image look better.

[Monique Laborde]

To promote something. We don't know what it's gonna be yet. And if it's gonna be on Netflix,

[Bridget Armstrong]

we're probably promote something. Wink, wink. Right. So I get that. That's why she did this. Right. But Netflix sort of using her reaction or really lack of reaction to some of these terrible things and then either seeing the actual scene or hearing from the person that it affected and it allowed them to sort of say that Tyra is completely out of touch without saying Tyra's completely out of touch. Do you know what I mean?

[Monique Laborde]

I do.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And I thought it was a really smart move on their part to edit it in that way where she may be here for this reason, but like, here's the reality. Here's the reality. Reality check. Here's the reality of what happened to these women and how it affected them, no matter how Tyra tries to spin it.

[Monique Laborde]

Okay, we're going to get more into Tyra later on in this bonus episode.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

But I want to start just by talking about the reactions that we're seeing online and the reactions we're seeing from the models, especially some of the most notable absent models in the documentary, like Tiffany Richardson and Adrienne Curry. Yeah.

[Bridget Armstrong]

So Tiffany responded right back before Tiffany Richardson. We talked a lot about Tiffany on our season. I don't know if I'm gonna read it, but she basically called Tyra a lot of B words, including bully. That's easy. Including bully. And some others you may know. And she said that Ty said some really nasty things about her and her son. And that's something that we actually uncovered in some of our reporting that like what was aired and that we were rooting for you speech. We just got like a fraction of what Tyra actually said. And I think you said you've gotten that question a lot from people too, right?

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, when I've been, you know, my friends know that I worked on this series cursed of and so when they're watching the Netflix doc, they're like, okay, wait, what actually was said behind the scenes of the. We were rooting for your speech. And we get into that on episode seven of our podcast. I mean, no one wants to repeat it. It's personal, it's cruel. The person that we interviewed in episode seven was the sound guy and he told us that basically she was saying, you know, go back to sleeping on the mattress with your baby and essentially calling out Tiffany's financial status in a way that was really personal and really cruel. Especially from where tyranny. So that's something that we heard, but I still don't even think that what we heard in episode seven of our podcast was the full. The full speech.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, absolutely not. It wasn't. And it's interesting because even now, Tyra couches what happened with her and Tiffany as her losing her cool on someone that she cared about or like a contestant that she really wanted to win. Right. And Tiffany has, I mean, I think outside of her post show interview, like when it was like back in the day, Tiffany has always refuted that Tiffany said that Tyra did not care about her and it showed in how she treated her in that moment, but also in other parts of the show. And I think that's really interesting. I think it's interesting that Tyra's still sort of holding onto that, you know, which is a pattern, I think, for Tyra.

[Monique Laborde]

Uh huh. I think someone says it in the Netflix doc, if you really cared about someone, you don't embarrass them, you don't treat them like that, you don't say those kind of things about them, period. So I do question this whole narrative of, oh, she saw herself in Tiffany. Oh, she cared about her, that's why she got so mad at her. I. I don't know about that.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, I agree. Some of the other models that were not in the doc, but they're also in the edoc have responded and one of the things they're sort of pointing out is they feel like the Netflix doc doesn't focus on their stories and what happened to them. I certainly think they do a great job of framing what Tyra's done in context of, like, the human cost, the Netflix doc. I thought that the Netflix doc was pretty hard on Tyra, but a lot of the models are like, it doesn't go far enough, which has been interesting.

[Monique Laborde]

Okay. So I want to get into it because. So for us, we spent basically a year hearing this story. And once we pulled the clips from the video, we were just playing with them in audio. And we had 10 hour long episodes, pretty much 11 if you count the bonus. And so we had more space in the podcast to go in depth, but they had visuals. So I want to start by talking about what it was like for you to see it all on screen as opposed to hearing it in audio.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah. So for me, I think one of the first things that stood out was just how young everybody was when they were on the show. We certainly talked to people on Curse Of. You know, I think Kenya told us that she taped her audition from her, like, freshman dorm. Right. And sure, who was not on the Netflix docuseries. But we spoke with her. She told us she was in high school, and she talked about missing high school graduation. Right. And it's one thing to sort of paint that picture in audio, but to see the clips of these young women, these teenagers, when these things are actually happening to them on the show is a little different. And it really hits home because I feel like there are a lot of people who ask this question of, why would anybody sign up for this? Right? It's reality tv, or maybe you've seen the show before. Why would you sign up for this? And I think seeing how young these women were when they signed up really answers that question. Because a lot of us have done things that we regret or done things we thought would be a good idea when we were young. And you really see that. Like, this is a high schooler making a decision. This is a person who was in high school two years ago who's signing up to do something that's gonna have this huge impact on their life. So that, for me, was something that really hit home with the docuseries. And I think a benefit of having the visuals, the other still on the point of age, right, Is how they look now. I think it's a natural reaction for all of us. I know when we were producing this, right, like, if we. If I knew we were talking about a model or we were gonna talk to them, one of the first things I do was Google them. I would go to their Instagram. I wanna know what they look like now. And I think that's sort of an unintended curse that I don't think we got into on the podcast. People will always compare how you look now to what you look like when you were on the show. It's this image of you that's frozen. And I don't necessarily. I don't think it's a bad thing that people do it. It's human nature. But for a person to always be judged against like their 18 year old self.

[Monique Laborde]

Body.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Their 18 year old body. Yeah, it's hard. And I think even well meaning people, like, it's just a natural reaction to want to see how people look. Right. And so there was that. And then the other part of like seeing how people look now is like, damn, we old. And I include me in it because I'm like, I was a teenager watching y' all and y' all were like 18 or 19 and now all like, that was another thing. And it's like we are reflecting from this point, like 20 years later, and it's all of us. And that for me was something that doesn't hit the same unless you are looking at people, you know.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. The passage of time just visually on people's faces. For me, seeing the images definitely hit different on some specifics. Like we had talked about the two people, Joanie and Danny Evans, who had their teeth removed. And just describing that is really different from seeing those scenes in the dentist chair. I mean, that was just physically visceral to watch. It was like a horror movie. Just saying the words they had their teeth removed doesn't do it justice. Another thing that's striking about seeing it visually is how skinny some of them are. I mean, they look sick. And they're also telling us that they were sick. Yes, of course, when we were pulling the clips, we saw it, but seeing it over and over again, and that montage where we saw the models collapsing, struggling with heat stroke, struggling to stand, it just really brought home how physically ill they were and still participating in this competition. And it also makes you think, God, everyone around them must have been seeing that too.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah. And it's also. You see how thin they are while they're being reprimanded for not being thin enough. That is the other thing that drove it home. Right. Like, it's one thing when we describe. Cause Kenya's in our pod, on the pod. And Kenya is also in this. And it's one thing when we describe Kenya as being really thin. Right. And we get into all of that, it's another thing to actually see how thin she was at that time. And then hear her talk about the criticism she got about her body and how that affected her and how that affected the fans, which is something we talked about, too. But, yeah, that visual, for me, you know, it's one of the things. Even describing how people look now and how they look then was one of the things we actually struggled with. Right. Like, it's a show that is all about exploiting women's looks, and we didn't want to, like, traffic in that as well by getting too deep into people's looks. Right. But there's also an element in which. There's the curiosity factor, which we just talked about. Like, you want to know how people look then, how they look now. But it's also, there's an element of, like, sometimes you really need to see how beautiful this person was who was being told that they had too many teeth or see how thin they were who was being told, you know, you need to lose weight for it to really drive home and make the point. Right. But then how many times can you say she was tall and striking and beautiful?

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[Bridget Armstrong]

She was tall blonde, she was a tall brunette. You know, that's. You can only say that so many times.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, that was something that we went back and forth with all the time on the podcast with how much to physically describe them, like you're saying. And we didn't want to replicate the same thing that they were criticizing the show for, which is they were reduced to what they looked like and not the fact that they were people. We also wanted people to remember, you know, who we're talking about. If they had watched antm, we really just landed on, like, describing them physically if it was relevant to the scene that they were in or the larger point we were making. I think that that's generally where we netted out with describing them. It's not the same describing someone in audio versus seeing them. And to that point, there was something about seeing them on the dock, especially when the documentary on Netflix brought up their family photographs that we hadn't seen when we were watching atm. Like, I'm thinking about Ebony and those pictures of her growing up in the hair salon that really humanized her even more, brought her fullness to the story in a way that was really satisfying because we didn't see that. We couldn't show that in audio. So that was really beautiful to see those archival photographs of the models.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah. And Ebony told that story about being told she was ugly when she was younger, but then finding her beauty in her mother's beauty salon, literally by being told she was. And then you see little Ebony and that it also for me paints this picture of like why these girls wanted to do it. Like, you can picture the little girl who dreamed of being a model or dreamed of being seen as beautiful and you make a. It makes, I think, a stronger connection to the 18 year old, the 20 year old young woman who goes and tries out for this show and is willing to do all of this stuff because she's really just that little girl who wanted to be seen as pretty. And I think we tried to make that point, but you're absolutely right. Seeing the actual picture of the little girl in this case Ebony and they had a few other women, I think that they sort of did that with. Seeing that really to me helped sort of connect who they were, who they are and who they were when they did antm.

[Monique Laborde]

You know, something else that stood out to me was seeing the CEO of UPN was a bit of a visual surprise. Like she's a very prim little white woman with a blonde bob and these shoulder pads to the gods. And I was, when we were talking about UPN being a network that the audience was mostly people of color. I was not picturing this woman at the head of the table. When that decision was being made to greenlight antm.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I was literally at my skin, like, why are there so many white people who work for upn? Like, that's, that's, that's what I could not. Because I remember it being, I mean, past our research. Right. Like we looked into this and like UPN did have programming that skewed towards black audiences, but I remember it being a black network and so I was shocked. I mean, I think UPN at the time was owned by cvs. Right. And there is some talk, we'll get into that about conversations that were had with CBS execs. I think I expected on that level. Right. But I did not, no, I didn't expect, yeah, the CEO of UPN to be like this little white woman. It was interesting because Tyra and company had to fight for diversity on antm. And for me that was always like, I don't really get it because it is a network that is already known for diversity. So you would think they would want to lean into that and sort of seeing that, like, yeah, none of the execs actually looked like the people that were hosting these shows or people on any of the other UPN shows actually made, made it make a lot of sense

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this is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Bridget Armstrong]

All right, we're back, and I'm here with my editor, Monique, and we're talking about the new ANTM docu series on Netflix. Mo, was there anything else visually that stood out for you while you were watching the doc?

[Monique Laborde]

There was another thing about watching it, which is a point that we made in the podcast, was that audiences seem to like watching, in particular, beautiful women being tortured physically and emotionally. Like, being dangled from high buildings, having spiders put on their face, being freezing cold, having emotional breakdowns that audiences seem to like that. And seeing all the archival strung together, that was something that the show was profiting off of, was, yeah. Watching women in pain. And I felt personally implicated in having watched that in a way that I hadn't before this Netflix talk.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, I agreed. I had that moment of, like, this is absurd. Like, you just see how ridiculous a lot of these challenges were. But I will say this. I do think one of the benefits we had in hearing it versus seeing it. Right. Is hearing people painstakingly describe what they were feeling and going to. I'm thinking of Sophie Sumner, who did the Macau Tower shoot. She was the winner of the British Invasion season. So Sophie describing what it was like to be on that ledge. Right. And the moments leading up to it, what Kim Mox said to her, what Nigel said to her, feeling the rain, feeling like she was gonna slip and fall. Like, all of that sort of stuff that you can sort of explain in detail. I think it's one of the benefits we have in audio, because seeing the clip of it, sometimes those clips are, like, cut really short. Right. And so you just see, ah, I'm scared. Like you see the terror quickly, and then it cuts to something else. But you have to remember that, like, this entire time, the stuff that we don't see on the show, they're going through this so that you may see them on that ledge for a minute or two in the actual show. But actually the shoot itself took 20 minutes. And that's the sort of things that you can describe and really drive home, I think, in audio. But no doubt it is wild to actually see how absurd some of this stuff was. And. Yeah, just the terror on people's faces.

[Monique Laborde]

Let's talk about some of the new information that we learned from the Netflix doc, because they had some exclusive interviews and information that we hadn't heard before. So. Yeah, where do you want to start?

[Bridget Armstrong]

The elephant in the room. They had tyra Kenmock, the Js and Nigel. These are people we went after. We, of course, reached out and tried to get them for the pod, but they unfortunately declined or didn't respond. And then, of course, with seeing Jay, Ms. J, we learned some really sad news about what Ms. J has been going through. Ms. J had a stroke, and Ms. J has been recovering from that stroke for the past few years. This was new information. This is new information that came out in the doc. And, you know, seeing Ms. J as this larger than life character, it was kind of hard to see her in this state on the documentary. I don't know. What did you think?

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, for me, Ms. J was kind of like the emotional centerpiece of this doc. And seeing her physically, like, diminished, because you're so right. Like, she was larger than life. She was the definition of fierce. And in so many ways, like, she was this show, really, especially for me watching this show, she just jumped off the screen like she was so alive. She was so different than anything we had ever seen on TV up to that point. And so to see her, you know, and it seemed like she wasn't even really able to speak that much. It seems like it was difficult for her to speak in the dock, and that was painful to watch. But in a sense, I'm also really glad in the documentary that we got to see her get her flowers, at least from Mr. J and Nigel. They all kind of were a coalition, which was surprising to me that at the end they all, you know, sat there with her. Everybody except Tyra and Ken Mock. But they all sat there with her and were, you know, supporting her and saying, you're gonna get back on your feet. That was definitely emotional to see, just because of what she represented. Who she was on the show.

[Bridget Armstrong]

It was a really heartfelt moment, and it was in a huge contrast to what was said about Tyra and Ms. J. Tyra hasn't even called Ms. J throughout this whole thing, let alone she hasn't gone to see her nothing. And that I was. I was, you know, there. If there's anything. I was shocked by. I was shocked by that.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I think everything else I'm like, uh, seems on par with Tyra. But because of the way that she presented her relationship with Ms. J, we have to remember, like, this is not just a person she knows from working on antm. This is a person she knew when she started out as a model, Somebody who's like, basically been in her entire adult life and been a part of these two things, these two huge things that made her, like, wildly successful. And so for her to not have reached out, one thing that drove it home for me was actually Ms. J's reaction when asked, have you heard from tyra? You know, Ms. J is shady. Ms. J, even on this doc, was still a little shady. But Ms. J wasn't shady at all in that answer. The answer was like, no, not yet. Almost hopeful in a way. That was a little sad for me. Like, Ms. J is still holding out for this person that clearly she had this relationship with, this really important relationship holding out for her for Tyra to, like, reach out and show that she actually cares. And so. So that for me was like. I was a little sad.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I was a little like, Aw. Ms. J's not even being shady about it. Which I thought meant that. I thought it showed that Ms. J was, like, really hurt that she hasn't heard from Tyra. Yeah.

[Monique Laborde]

Seeing her at the end, Ms. J being so emotional, like, there was a really deep pain there. And I'm sure it's about this recovery that's been so difficult on her. But it's also in the context of filming this documentary and being around Mr. J and Nigel and, like, you only have so many minutes, finite amount of minutes in life, and she spent so much of it on this show. And then to sort of be discarded by the figurehead must be really, really painful. Yeah. And J. Manuel actually posted an update since this documentary came out that Ms. J is back and walking and is able to walk now. So that's an update that we didn't get to see in the documentary.

[Bridget Armstrong]

That's heartwarming. That's great. I want to see, hopefully, Ms. J stomping down some runways again. So I was happy to hear that. One of the things I think is interesting that they also got into about the jj, Nigel, Tyra relationship that we didn't talk about as much is the fallout. The fallout between Tyra, the JS and Nigel, and how the JS and Nigel were unceremoniously fired from that show. Yeah, they were sort of blindsided with being fired and that Tyra didn't really talk to them that much about it afterwards, despite them having this really long relationship, and they were really hurt by it. But one thing that came up for me, thinking about the way that they were fired and their public fallout with Tyra is it has kind of shielded them from some of the criticism. Because in watching this doc, I'm like, you know, certainly Tyra holds a bigger share of the blame for this than they do. This is actually Tyra's show, Tyra's baby. But a lot of the body shaming, the negative comments that also came from these judges. And because I think we sort of see them in some ways as sort of victims of what happened on A and T, and they also were discarded, it kind of saves them from getting some of the criticism that I think they. They partially hold, if that makes sense.

[Monique Laborde]

It does. I mean, having watched so many of the old seasons to make the podcast, we know that all three of them, J Emanuel, Ms. J, Nigel, said some horrible stuff on camera that aired. We could make a montage right now of all the things, you know, that each of them said. And they weren't being forced to say that stuff, the body shaming stuff, just the cutting, mean remarks. So for them to now be like, oh, we couldn't have done or said anything differently from what Tyra wanted. It's. It just. It doesn't quite sit right.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, I mean, even we spoke with that producer, Andrew Patterson, who was on later seasons of. He was a producer of creative on later seasons.

[Monique Laborde]

Right.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And he did say that by that point, Jay Manuel was talent. Right. He would come on the set like they did a lot of the creative. Andrew's team did a lot of the creative. J. Manuel would come on set for his allotted time, shoot his scenes, do this, do that, leave, get his check. That's it. Right, but that's later seasons.

[Monique Laborde]

Right?

[Bridget Armstrong]

The lore about this show is how hands on the J's and Tyra were at the very beginning. Like, I find that interesting because I think, well, there. There's a lot of terrible stuff that happened all throughout ANTM until the last seasons. Some of the worst stuff, some of the stuff that people point back to did happen in those first seasons.

[Monique Laborde]

You know what I mean? Yep.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And I'm like, that's when everybody admits that you guys were hands on. And so now to sort of walk it back and be like, oh, you know, I didn't know what production did, I didn't know this, I didn't know that. It just seems really disingenuous. And I understand why you may not want to be associated with that, or you may not want your legacy to be only that. But I think in not addressing it, it then forces people to like say, hey wait a minute, why is he off the hook? Which is what we're doing now. So I don't know if it's working that well. But I will say I think that the Netflix doc was very kind to them in a way that I don't want to say it's not fair, but in a way that I just wish that they would have been pushed a little bit more about some of the things they didn't say.

[Monique Laborde]

Yes, Foreign.

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[Matt Rogers]

this is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Beaugnye.

[Bowen Yang]

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[Monique Laborde]

Speaking of new information, what we learned, especially from the interviews with Tyra and Ken Mock, was this question that we reckoned with with like, they said that they were fighting for diversity. Tyra and Ken Mock. But what does that really look like? And then Ken Mock told us about this fight that he and Tyra got into with Les Moonves, the CEO of CBS at the time.

[Bridget Armstrong]

This is something that Tyra brings up all the time. Like it is her response to any criticism. And I see why she uses it, right? Because having the diversity on ANTM was groundbreaking at the time and it made the show really interesting. Right? And so we hear Kim Mock and Tyra say that, like, this was something they had to fight for. But in a doc they tell this story in particular where they on the first wanted a Latina model to be one of the contestants unless Moonves said no, which was shocking to me. Going back to like, UPN is the diversity channel. Why don't you want diversity? So this is a point that I think me and you were both trying to understand after Les Moonves vetoed having the Latina contestant. I read that as that's when they started the search for Gisele. Remember when we talked to Giselle, she said she was like the last one. Like, the girls were actually already in the hotel and Giselle got cast and brought on the show. But you read that as a little different.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. I was thinking that they were saying Giselle was the one they were fighting over and Tyra and Ken wanted her in and Les Moonves was the one who was saying, no, I don't want that person on the show. And that in the end she did make it in because of, you know, and they say, like, I think Ken Mock says it almost got physical, this fight between Tyra and Les Moonves. And so they don't go into the specifics on the doc of who that person was that they were fighting over. But it does sort of bring to life this thing that Tyra says over and over again. Like you were saying, she's always like, we had to fight for diversity and representation and then we don't ever get the follow up of what that looked like.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Absolutely. And it's one of those things where I could almost see Tyra feeling like, like, this is a part of of the show. This is a thing that she fought for that actually really was good. And I do think it is a good thing that ANTM did by showing this diversity within beauty. Right. But it's almost like sometimes you can think because you did one thing right, you did everything right. Like, you got this one thing right. That doesn't mean that, like, you're not accountable for all. Like, yes, you brought on black and brown women, women of different sizes, but you also treated them all really badly. So it doesn't really absolve you by, like, bringing on the diversity. But the other thing to me was like, had Les Moonves and the other execs won this battle against diversity, what A&TM would have looked like? First of all, I think it would have been, like, really boring. Right. Like, I think part of the interesting thing was that everyone was so diverse. But two, I was like it really would have looked like Tyra, a black woman. Jay, the two Jays, two men of color. It would have looked like them sort of being in service of like making. Turning these like white women into model, which I thought would have been like really bad for the optics. And it just sort of, to me, I was like, oh, so like execs really don't know what they're talking about sometimes. I don't think I would have been a fan. Right. Like, I loved rooting for the girl who looked like me. And my favorite season was, I think season three. And that was at that point the most diverse season they had had. So I'm just like, ah, that would have been a really bad decision, you know.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, absolutely. That is something we talked a lot about in producing the podcast. Was one of the best contributions of this show to broader culture is the diversity that they and representation that they did put on camera. In particular the LGBTQ diversity in a time when that was not a thing that we saw on television. And like, for me, as I'm gay watching this show as a teenager, seeing lesbian representation was huge, Huge. And we saw with our story, in our episode with isis, how much she has heard from in particular trans women saying that seeing her on television was like a life saving representation. So I don't think we can minimize how important that was that the show ended up looking like that. But at the same time, like we talked about in our episode, the people who were actually on camera experiencing that didn't necessarily have a positive experience in the moment with the way they were treated on set, the way they were tokenized. Do you want to talk about ebony? That was new information we learned.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, I didn't realize this. When we were doing the pod, we talked about Ebony and Ebony was on season one. Ebony, lesbian, Ebony's girlfriend came to visit and they made this cute moment and we went all in on that. Right. What I didn't realize was that Tyra outed ebony. Ebony talks about this in the Netflix doc that when Tyra says, oh, Ebony, you're gay. This was our first introduction and EBONY did not know that that was how the show was going to introduce her sexuality. And so that just sort of goes to show that like, yes, we want diversity. Yes, we want to show all different kinds of people, but we want to do that. We want to use it in a way where we're like exploiting and manipulating your differences on the show. I read it as like, oh, this is just a thing about her and she's in on us Knowing this about her and to find out that it wasn't was like,

[Bowen Yang]

wow.

[Bridget Armstrong]

So, like, y' all really didn't have any concern for these girls.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, she was not consulted in that being part of her storyline on this huge television show. And she must have told the producers or the psych evaluators that. And then it just. Then the cameras are rolling and Tyra says it. I mean, to Ebony's credit, I think, especially for the time looking back on that season, she rolled with it and she was really. We saw her like, keep her head up the whole time, but knowing that she wasn't involved in that decision for that to be part of her storyline, it's like representation at what cost, you know?

[Bridget Armstrong]

Yeah, yeah. And that was one of the things we said A&TM got right the way that they talked about Ebony's sexuality, like them bringing on this cute moment with the girlfriend and everything. And so it really changed my perspective hearing that she was outed. Cause I was like, oh, so they just treated Ebony like crap the whole time. There's nothing they got right about it. Right. Because they also get into. And this is something we got into was Ebony's edit. Them talking about her being ashy, talking about her skin being rough. I don't even think we used the word ashy on our. On the pod. Like, I don't think we got into like the connotations of that word specifically. And Ebony talks about how much that hurt her. And it was really. And this was something. You know, one of my favorite episodes was our episode, the race swap Card, where we also get into like the dynamics of Tyra being a black woman and the way she treated black women on this show. Hearing Ebony talk about that and talk about how she expected to be protected for me was like a really hard thing to listen to because I can imagine being like a, you know, early 20s, like 21 year old young woman who's going on this show. And you may know how the world might. How the rest of the world might react to you as a black woman. Right. But because you have this black woman who. Who says she's a champion of diversity heading this show, I could see going on there and expecting at least for her to look out for you. And so that was heartbreaking. But it also was like, dang, when you even try to give A&TM a bit of credit, somehow you find out that that credit isn't even due.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah. Okay. So maybe the biggest new piece of information that we learned in this doc, you mentioned it at the beginning is Shandi Sullivan's story, Shandy from season two.

[Bridget Armstrong]

So Shandi's story was one of the ones that was really, really disturbing on antm. Shandy was. On season two, we had this situation where we see Shandy get drunk. Some guys are invited over. They're on the international trip, some guys that are helping them while they're on this trip. And these guys come over, they get in the hot tub, things go too far. Shandy cheats on her boyfriend. And we see this horrific call that Shandy makes to her boyfriend back home to tell her she's, quote, cheated. But the information we found out in this doc is that actually, I mean, when you. With our understanding of what assault is, like, it's obvious that this is what's happening, right? Shandy was blackout drunk. This man sexually assaulted her. And the camera, cameras filmed the whole thing. They filmed the assault. They filmed everything. And remember, we talked about this on our. On our podcast, there was a rule that if two or more people were in the shower, in the bathroom at the same time, the cameras could film. And Shandy was in the bathroom with the guy. It's framed as, oh, they invited these guys over, and Shandy couldn't hold her liquor, and she did this thing. She made this mistake, right? But what we find out in the doc is that this wasn't just like, oh, a random meetup. This is something the producers set up. The models were asked, hey, how do you feel about having these guys come over? Right? That's something Shandy confirms. And in our research for the pod, we also found that, like, producers would set up these types of situations and stir the pot. And so it makes it even more insidious that, like, they set this situation up, they watch it unfold. They watched her clearly drink way too much to give consent, and then filmed her assault. That's. It's. It's sick.

[Monique Laborde]

Oh, my God. The moment where she's talking about the camera person apologizing for having had to film that, that. That is exactly one of those moments where you wonder why people didn't walk out, why people working on this series didn't say, I can't do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to be part of this. It's just flat out unacceptable. The fact that these guys were invited over there, the fact that this is a set, this house was a set. There were producers there, there were film crew there, and nobody working that night thought to say, hey, let's go, cameras down, let's Take Shandy to another room. She can't consent to this. The fact that that didn't happen. The cameras kept rolling, and then, oh, my God. In the dock on Netflix to see her, they played an archival clip where she was brought on the Tyra show and essentially forced to watch that scene replayed in front of a studio audience. And she is saying to Tyra, I can't look at this. And then we see her interview for the Netflix doc saying, I was told that wasn't going to be played. I asked it not to be played. And it was played again. It's just a level of the mistakes were made over and over and over again. It's not like this was one mistake that happened from the production crew. This was a series of, like, 12 mistakes that are inexcusable.

[Bridget Armstrong]

And one of the things that was also disturbing in the Netflix doc was Tyra and Kim Mock's reaction when they were asked about what happened with Shandy. We find out in the Netflix doc, right, that there was even more footage from the fallout of what happened to Shandy. So they taped her after the call while she was crying in the fetal position. After the call with the boyfriend, they told her she needed to go to the hospital to be tested. She needed to go to a clinic to be tested. And they filmed that, too. Now we find out about this information why? Because Ken Mock uses it as this point to make that, like, see, we're not, you know, we're not that bad because they cut it out. Like, it's almost as like, oh, yeah, like, we. We could have shown all this other terrible stuff that we shouldn't have filmed at all. But we didn't, because that's when I drew the line. And that, to me, just showed that, like, there's still a lack of accountability about what happened to her because none of it should have filmed and it shouldn't have actually happened.

[Monique Laborde]

And I don't buy Tyra saying she doesn't remember this. We know from those early days that she was very hands on in those seasons. She was in the editing bay day in and day out. And she later brought Shandy on her show, the Tyra show, and did that interview where she made her watch this clip again and talked about it with her. I don't believe that Tyra doesn't remember what happened there. I think that was a really convenient excuse for her.

[Bridget Armstrong]

I also think she should have made it her business. She'd made this comment that was like, production wasn't really my territory. And I'm like, this happened on season two. Right. And even if you don't know all the details and even if you don't have the information you had today, something about that doesn't look right. Just the idea of, like, girls are coming on your show and they're getting really, really blackout drunk and engaging in sexual activity that they can't consent to. Right. That's something. As the host of the show, I would have made it my business to find out what. What happened. That's something that when I came to this interview with Netflix, I would have had an answer ready to talk about what happened, because I'm just like, the fact that you have come on here and you still don't have an answer for this thing happening on your watch, to me, just shows like, a true lack of care. Like, you actually it's because you don't care what happened, or it's because you don't want to admit that something happened on your watch, possibly opening you up to a lawsuit. Who knows? But, yeah, that was weird because I'm like, like, girl, it's literally like, almost 25 years later. Why don't you know what happened yet? Like, you should have found this out at some point.

[Monique Laborde]

Yeah, I think you're onto something there with the lawsuit. That. That might be one of the reasons that she is claiming. Feigning like, she doesn't know and saying, oh, I had no control over the situation because if she were to take accountability for it, then she could be opened up. That could open her up for a lawsuit. But you just. You can't have it both ways. Where you say, I was involved in every minute of this show. This was my show. I was in control of it. And also, oh, this horrific thing occurred, and I have no knowledge of it. Like, you can't have both.

[Bridget Armstrong]

Okay, so we're gonna pause here and come back with part two, where we finish this conversation. In the next part, we're breaking down everything we heard from Tyra and Ken Mock, and we'll explain why we think Tyra is a villain. So look out for part two of this conversation. It'll be in your feed in the next few days. The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with Iheart Podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and singer produced by me, Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is Monique Laborde, also produced by Ben Federman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Kristen Melcurry and Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krenchek Audio editing and mixing on this episode by Matt Del Vecchio the Curse of America's Next Top Model theme was composed by Oliver Baines Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Also check out the lasspodcast Instagram for Curse of America's Next Top Model. Behind the Scenes Content.

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