← Curse of: America’s Next Top Model
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- [00:00]
Bridget Armstrong
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Ryan Seacrest
Guaranteed Human hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up Savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Oreo, Haagen, Dazs, Charmin, Tide, Sparkling Ice, Reese's and Special K. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures when
- [01:35]
Bridget Armstrong
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Bridget Armstrong
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- [02:25]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [03:19]
Bridget Armstrong
Welcome to the curse of america's next top model. I'm bridget armstrong. Hey, y'.
- [03:28]
Monique Laborde
All.
- [03:28]
Bridget Armstrong
We're back with part two of this bonus episode. I'm with my editor Monique Laborde, and we're doing a deep dive on the new ANTM Netflix doc. We left off talking about one of the most disturbing revelations in the docuseries. What happened to Shandy Sullivan on ANTM Cycle 2. In the documentary, Shandy describes an incident on set where producers invited over some guys to the model house. They were drinking and Shandy was really drunk and she and one of the guys ended up having a sexual encounter. But Shandy was too drunk to consent. And without consent, that is sexual assault. ANTM filmed the whole thing, including the assault, and aired it. And all of these years later, when Tyra and Kenmack were asked about what happened to Shandy on the docuseries, they refused to take accountability. In fact, Ken Mok justified it. But what about when Ken Mok said they kept filming because it was a documentary.
- [04:30]
Monique Laborde
Oh, my God, Bullshit. Like, it is not a documentary. Even documentaries are produced. They know what they are gonna get and they edit it to look a certain way. Like, it is okay, we know that it is not a documentary. People were typecast. People were told who to be. And the scenes that we saw, the reactions that we saw, that was all set up and planned. Like calling it a documentary, that really rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah. What do you think?
- [05:02]
Bridget Armstrong
Oh, my God. I was like, we literally know. Like, we know that this thing, if your idea of a documentary is we show up and document whatever's happening. Right. I'm like, no, we. No, for sure. We had producers on record saying to us, yeah, we stirred the pot. Yeah. We created drama. Yeah, we did all these things. And so for him to sort of be like, they intervened. I mean, they intervened when the person that they didn't think that the person who won All Stars, Angeli, was suitable to be on the show. They intervened and kicked her off the show and retaped. You know what I mean? They intervened. They intervened a lot. Like, they intervened a lot to cause certain situations that would play great for the camera. They intervene a lot. And so for you to take this road of like, oh, everybody knew when they came on the show that we're just gonna film what happens when we're talking about a girl getting literally assaulted.
- [05:55]
Monique Laborde
Yep.
- [05:57]
Bridget Armstrong
When you are literally filming a blackout drunk woman being sexually assaulted, like, this is what we're talking about. What, you didn't wanna intervene? Not like a squabble between two contestants, you know, and that for me, again, that's the sort of thing that we were wrong. Like, that's all I don't want to hear about. Like, oh, it was a documentary. And that's just something you say. You know what? We were wrong and we should have handled that differently. And, you know. But I don't know why I get shocked every time I hear lack of accountability from kenmock and Tyra. I think that's just. They don't feel bad. That's what we're supposed to take away from this. They don't feel that bad about this.
- [06:37]
Monique Laborde
Mm. Yeah. It's interesting. The only time we saw Ken Mock take accountability was on the dead body shoot, which was disturbing to see, but, yeah, he gave a pretty good example of accountability. He was like, that was wrong. That was my call and that was the wrong call, and we should not have done that, period. And that it's like, why is that so hard to say? Can we say that more for some of this other stuff that happened? Maybe it's that that isn't legally implicating at all. It's just unsavory. And that's why he was able to say it and take accountability for that one. But I would've liked to see a lot more of that from Ken Mock and Tyra.
- [07:15]
Bridget Armstrong
Absolutely. And there was a lot of stuff that the doc didn't get into that we talked about. Right. So watching this docuseries, we had all this context. One of those things, for me, and it's what we're talking about now, was the amount of manipulation that happened behind the scenes. Whether that was manipulating scenes, creating drama, manipulating who actually won, setting up challenges. So certain people did really well and others didn't. That, for me, was something they didn't get into as much that we certainly talked about. Another thing that was big for us, we did Two whole episodes. The psyche vows. We didn't really talk about the psyche vows, which, you know, this was a part of the process where everybody went through. You were told it was for your own safety, but actually they were using it also to produce the. The show. One thing for me that Kenmock said, though, that I was like, wait, that that's it? You're admitting the thing? He said that a lot of the young women who came on the show had troubled backgrounds or didn't have a great family life, and they didn't get validation at home, and so they came to ANTM seeking that validation. And the troubled childhood or difficult upbringing pattern is something we also uncovered when reporting for the podcast.
- [08:36]
Monique Laborde
I was surprised they didn't get into that at all. But it wasn't an accident that the show knew about all of these women's deep traumas and then brought them back up at really strikingly convenient times. So, like, it was really strange to see Ken Mock acknowledge that some of these girls had come on the show from difficult backgrounds having issues at home, because we had talked about, like, what is the pattern there? Why are we seeing this pattern where so many of these women have a really traumatic background? And the pattern is that they were all selected to be on the show. Like, those were the contestants you picked. It wasn't an accident that they all had traumatic backgrounds and that was used against them to break them down while the cameras were on. So it felt really tone deaf that he said that, not acknowledging how that information got translated to the producers and the fact that those particular women were chosen for the show. And then I just think I've really enjoyed our episodes about psych evals. That was really illuminating for me about how reality TV shows work, period. But especially how psych evals can be misused and abused on shows like this. So I think they were missing that for sure. Another thing that we brought up on our show that they didn't get into in the Netflix doc was the contracts that these. I mean, a lot of times girls were signing, these teenagers were signing and being told to sign in the moment in the room and not getting the chance to look it over. Also not really understanding what they were signing. And we got a copy of the contract, went through it, talked about it on an episode of the podcast, but that was. That was completely missing from the Netflix doc.
- [10:25]
Bridget Armstrong
Yeah, I was actually surprised by that because it's one of the things that I think you hear the models criticize the show for the most was just how exploitative their contracts were and how they got nothing out of being on the show. You know, we heard from models who told us that, like, they couldn't even. They couldn't make any money from it. So, like, they couldn't even start a YouTube channel, you know, a paid channel that. Where they're talking about their experience on atm. They couldn't write a book, they couldn't do anything. And this is all in the contract. Meanwhile, Tyra was getting really rich. And I think that. That. I actually think that that is one of the biggest missing perspectives on this doc. That it wasn't just like, oh, you were on the show and you were humiliated a bit. Right. Like, I don't even know if people fully understand that they didn't get compensated at all. Like, they had to buy their own food. That actually shocked me when we found out when we first started working on this. I'd heard some other models say they had a per diem a day. Right. But I still didn't. It didn't connect to me that they had to actually use said per diem to feed themselves. Cause I'm just thinking, like, if you're on a show, they feed you, right? Like, at the very least, you're gonna get three meals a day. Because, like, wouldn't they want you to, like, eat? But, like, we come to find out, no, they want you starving and mad. That's something that, like, the Netflix doc doesn't get into. And I think that really just further drives home the exploitation they experienced. Cause knowing even in the short term, your basic needs were not even met on this show. Meanwhile, you're humiliating yourself so Tyra can make millions.
- [11:53]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, and there's that, like, agreement that we now kind of audiences now understand with people who go on reality TV shows that, like, yeah, you're gonna be humiliated probably by the production team, regardless of what show it is, but, you know, will get, if you want it. A lot of Instagram followers, depending on how you do on the show and how you market yourself, like, you can become an Internet celebrity afterwards, but this is a time when that was not an option. So not only were they paid, like, pennies to appear basically on the show, they didn't get to build that brand afterwards at all. So it's just, like, such an interesting moment in time. They were left out to dry. They did have a scene with Danny Evans talking about launching her modeling career afterwards and being explicitly told, you're not getting gigs because you were on ANTM and people don't want to work with you because of that. It looks bad, basically. What did you think about what she said on the doc? That was new information that Tyra had approached her years later and told her that she was aware of that stigma
- [13:05]
Bridget Armstrong
and that she didn't do anything for her.
- [13:06]
Monique Laborde
I didn't know that.
- [13:07]
Bridget Armstrong
I didn't know that either. Well, one thing I think it was interesting about the relationship between Tyra and Danny Evans. We're talking about how Tyra rarely apologizes to anybody. Like, she'll apologize for, like, to the audience, but not to a person. It was like a half assed apology. It was like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. But Danny Evans, the gap. Telling Danny Evans to get her gap closed and ultimately closing it a bit. That's one of the things that Tyra has addressed in the past. And so to hear Danny say that, like, yeah, Tyra admitted to just sort of leaving me out to dry, I think it sort of made me wonder if Tyra really resented Danny for some reason because she turned her down on getting the gap clothes because she didn't take her advice explicitly. Did she just sort of hang her out to dry? Is that just what Tyra did with all the girls and Dani just so happened to like and she was feeling truthful that day? I don't know. But yeah, it did make me think about, like, there's something. There's a dynamic happening between Tyra and Danny where Tyra did feel the need to address what she did to her, but also didn't feel the need to help her, which is interesting.
- [14:17]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, that was a big point that we made in the podcast, which is that a lot of these women after coming on the show weren't actually welcomed into the fashion industry. It wasn't actually a credential that they had won antm. It was the opposite. It was like a stain. Because it was seen as like tacky to have gone on a reality TV show and with someone like Dani, I mean, seeing that she had got herself after the show into an agency where she was trying auditioning and then just seeing, looking at some of her photos after the show from her career, even looking at her now, you're like, oh, you actually could have made it. You really have the genetics. You have the face. You are, you are a supermodel. And this show hurt you more than it helped you. That I think we see copy and pasted onto a lot of women. But just Dani was the most obvious example in the Netflix doc and I would have liked to see more stories like hers of trying to make it afterwards. Like we heard with Joanna. I think Joanna similarly.
- [15:23]
Bridget Armstrong
Yeah. I mean it also made me think of someone who wasn't on the Netflix doc. She was in our pod, but she's also gonna be on the E. Dirty Rotten Scandals series. Angielee. Yes, Because I thought about the things that these women had to go do to like make ends meet. Right. Like angielee told probably one of the most moving and disturbing and memorable stories I think on our, on our podcast. On Angeli's original season, she did pretty well. She got off the show, couldn't find work, could not find work at all. No one took her seriously. Angelie got like the angry black girl, ghetto girl edit on her season. She could not get work. Angelique ends up being trafficked, like sex trafficked. And she ends up getting out of it not long after she goes back on A and T M Allstars and she wins the whole thing. And they take away her win because the contract allowed her to. And Angelie after that still never got that modeling opportunity. It's like she did the thing she was supposed to do. She won the show and that still like didn't help her at all. So that for me it was really interesting that Netflix didn't talk about that. Of course we decided to tie it to the contracts because that's how they were able to strip her win. But just that in and of itself, that story to show that like this show did not help women. And even when they were in a position to help the women who really needed help, they went out of their way to not help them if they didn't represent whatever standard, bullshit standard they'd come up with, you know,
- [17:05]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn uneligible items from Lays, J Jack Links, Cheez it Classico, Hidden Valley and Best Foods. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions. Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures Now I'd
- [18:35]
Bridget Armstrong
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- [19:36]
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- [20:52]
Monique Laborde
Seeing Tyra in this doc and how bad she comes off. It does make me wonder. Like, she didn't want someone to actually be the next supermodel, like Queen. You know what I mean? Like, she might have not actually wanted to share that spotlight that title. That could be a part of this as well, that I didn't let myself think about during the podcast production because it felt like it wasn't substantiated fully. But seeing her in this Netflix doc, consistently deflecting and then knowing how much these women wanted and could have made it in the industry, but she didn't go to bat for them at all, it makes me wonder what her motivations were there.
- [21:36]
Bridget Armstrong
Absolutely. I mean, that is true, because I feel like Tyra came up in an era where there could only be one. There could only be one black supermodel. Right? And so she was pitted against Naomi Campbell. And while Tyranny presented herself as, like, girl power. I love all women we know, like, based on the show that, like, she certainly didn't. And so I could. That's such a good point, Mo. Like, she maybe did not want to create her rival. She didn't want to take the. Create the person who would now be known as the other black supermodel. It's like, it comes from this, like, mindset of scarcity, and it doesn't. It's not always your fault that you have that mindset of scarcity, but I guess it's just in huge contrast with how Tyra actually presented herself. But yeah, that's a point I didn't think about a lot either. Like, did Tyra even want any of these girls to be top models? Because then who was Tyra?
- [22:22]
Monique Laborde
And with Angeli, the documentary, not getting into Angeli was a real missed opportunity in the Netflix talk. I mean, even though they didn't have her interview, they still could have talked about that. Talked about it, and they Didn't.
- [22:33]
Bridget Armstrong
It's one of the biggest scandals that ever happened on A and T M. I'm like, talk about it, mention it, I guess. I mean, this is a problem we also ran into. Right. And we had 10, 11 episodes, if you count the bonus. There's just so much crazy shit that went down on that show. You really do have to pick what you're gonna talk about and what you're gonna say about it. And so, you know, hate it. Forum. Netflix only had three episodes, so there's a lot of stuff that they skipped over that I was, like, a little surprised by. And I think AngieLee's story is certainly one of them, because when have you ever heard of, like, somebody winning the whole thing and then having this huge scandal where their win is taken away? And it's interesting because they never did another All Stars after that either.
- [23:17]
Monique Laborde
Right, right. Yeah. And the other thing we didn't see from the Netflix doc that they could have gone into, but they didn't, which we talked about in our last episode of the podcast, is what these contestants, what these former contestants actually want from Tyra. And it differs, you know, we heard different takes on what they want, but a lot of them just want accountability. Some of them just want a phone call where Tyra says, hey, I know that what happened on that show was not okay, and I'm sorry, and that was my call, and I wish it had gone down differently, and I respect you, and I wish that it hadn't happened. You know, like, a lot of them just wanted that, but some of them want money. You know, they're like, my image is still being replayed over and over again, and I'm making no money on this. But we didn't hear any of those perspectives on what they want from Tyra.
- [24:10]
Bridget Armstrong
Yeah, I think that's. That's really missing, too, because I think it changes the conversation from, we were victims. We had this thing happen to us. We just need to talk about it. And it. It makes it seem like there's no way to be actually accountable other than saying sorry, you know what I mean? Like, there are tangible things that can be done, and a lot of these models know that, and they're saying that.
- [24:31]
Monique Laborde
I completely agree. Yeah. All right, so let's really go deep on Tyra because we both have been talking about Tyra for a year, and what does she know? What does she not know? What does she. Oh, these women, these contestants from the show. What does she represent? What did she do? What did she not do? And why is she the person that we put all of this on, is that fair? You know, these are questions we grappled with, especially you. I mean, when we were first working on this series, it was hard for you to come down too hard on Tyra. At the beginning you were like, I don't know if she's the villain. So, yeah, let's talk about that now.
- [25:10]
Bridget Armstrong
It is something I grapple with a lot. And in the beginning, I was like, I don't think she's a villain. Then I was like, I think she's an evil genius. Then, like, even on the last episode, like, when we were still weighing this question out, like, we had. We had a whole segment, a whole section where we were talking about all the things Tyra did do. Right, Right. And all the criticism that Tyra's gotten that isn't the same as, like, white men in her same position, similarly positioned white men, they don't get the same sort of criticism. Like, we even went there with it. And I did leave feeling like we had been really fair to Tyra while, like, holding her to account. But after watching the Netflix doc and watching how she feels about it now, I almost feel like we could have went harder. We didn't go far enough. Like, I am now convinced she is a villain. Like, if there were any questions in my mind before seeing her still sort of dodge accountability, underlined the fact that she does not give a fuck. And how could you watch this thing and know what happened to these girls and hear them say, like, you know, like, this kind of ruined my life. And your answer is still, but this is what the people wanted. Even her thing. But this was like the scariest thing. I'm like, is this a threat, Tyra? The thing she said about like, are you gonna be prepared when people come for you? Talking to the audience, like, this audience said, like, we don't have a multi million dollar TV show. Are you gonna be prepared when they come for you? Because they are coming or they will come for you. That statement was so defensive and it was trying to deflect again the blame that she holds in this. And it just was so like, it was almost the sort of thing that a villain in a movie would say when they're caught, they're coming for you next. And I'm just like, Tyra girl, like down to. Like you said, you pointed out one of the. Her fashion choice even sort of made her look like a villain.
- [27:11]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, the trench coat. Right. Like, that was a wild stylistic choice. I don't know if she made that choice Or a stylist made that choice, but that was the wrong choice. Like the trench coat is so representative of I have something to hide. So that just visually was a mistake. But then, man, she was hollow. She was so hollow in her answers, she came off as really insincere. And she's had. You made the point earlier. You know, she's had five years since 2020 to come up with a better answer than it was a different time and everyone's getting canceled these days. And she kind of made it seem in this doc even still like it's a few Internet trolls as opposed to a pattern of her behavior over a 20 year period of time that the broader culture is reckoning with and calling out as not acceptable. Why would she show up to this interview and not have better answers? I don't get it.
- [28:11]
Ryan Seacrest
Yeah.
- [28:11]
Bridget Armstrong
I think that Tyra either really doesn't understand that she did something wrong. Right. Like she really believes her bullshit or she knows exactly what she's doing. She knows that, like, these answers that lack accountability are gonna get people mad and get people talking. And she's continuing to give these answers because it sparks conversation. I mean, we're talking about it now. There are three. There's two documentaries and a podcast all about A and T M. Tyra Banks, a show that went off years ago and premiered 20 years ago. And so I think part of that could be she knows that that like, on the one hand, like, you know, I said I thought Tyra was maybe an evil genius. Right. I certainly think Tyra knows what catches people's attention and she knows how to hold their attention.
- [29:00]
Monique Laborde
Oh, yeah. And she says that. She's like, I can sense what people want. I can taste it, you know, and she's right.
- [29:07]
Bridget Armstrong
She is right. And I wonder if Tyra knows that people want a villain. People want a villain and they want her to be the villain. And it is something that continues to drive conversation around her and her show. And she's a person who hasn't been on television in years. She hasn't like been a professional model in years, but we're still talking about her so much. And so, yeah, the other option is Tyra knows exactly what she's doing. And she knows by giving these sort of vague, hollow. It'll get people talking, it'll get people to pay attention. I mean, she has incentive to, I guess, because of some of the news that they revealed. We're gonna talk a little bit about the season 25 hint. That's terrifying. I was like, season 20 girl. No we'll talk about that a little bit more. But, like, maybe that's the reason she's doing the interview in the first place. Maybe that's why she's trying to get this conversation started. Because now we're all gonna tune in and see, has Tyra changed? It's a different time now. Is it gonna be different? That could be what Tyra wants. Or it's the opposite. Tyra really doesn't understand how callous she. She seems, which is possibly scarier.
- [30:12]
Monique Laborde
I'm really torn about those two. And they're both bad options. Like, neither of them is better than the other. But to your. The thing you brought up about her saying, oh, I hope you're prepared for when they come for you to. I guess the producer asking her a question about the show that she made for 20 years, and it really. That, to me, like, portrayed a deeper sort of psychology and a deeper problem that reminded me of the mom in Unknown Number, the Netflix doc, the mom, Kendra Le Carre, when she sits down for her sort of confrontation interview, and she says, oh, well, who hasn't made a mistake? Who hasn't had one too many drinks but decided to drive home anyway? And it's like, well, that's not what we're talking about here. We're actually asking you about some very specific things that you did. So to deflect that and to really think you're making a smart point in that deflection almost like, betrays a deeper psychological lack of connecting the dots that make me think that maybe it's the former. Maybe she genuinely does not believe she did wrong.
- [31:16]
Bridget Armstrong
We talked about this on our season. She likes to say a lot of times that people didn't know better back then. Or all of a sudden in 2020, I think she says this in the doc verbatim. Like, and then all of a sudden, 2020, everybody's looking back at, like, this was really wrong or something like that. She said. I'm like, well, before 2020, the models knew it was wrong because they said so. And the fact that she still doesn't address that and we're all pretending. I mean, this is extreme. I'm gonna give an extreme example, right? But it's like those people who try to justify racism because it was a different time, and they'll say, oh, yeah, back in the 40s and the 50s, it was just different. And it was pretends as though there were no black people who were saying, like, this was wrong. Tyra likes to put it in this thing that, like, nobody knew well, at the very least, the people you were doing this to knew it was wrong and they said it. So why don't they count? Yeah, I came into the podcast wanting her not to be the sole villain, or wanting it to be something else. But seeing her on this docu series, I don't know if she listened to Curse of. I like to think she did. But seeing her on this docu series and knowing that she's heard these criticisms and this still being her response is just at a certain point, fan or no fan, auntie lover or no antium lover, at a certain point, you can't. I can't make excuses. It's just. It is what it is, you know.
- [32:43]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up Savings time now through March 31st. Bring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Activia, General Mills, Nature Valley, A and W, Monster Energy, Coffee Mate and Pete's Coffee. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions. Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like etc ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosure is available@public.com disclosure hi, I'm
- [34:16]
Monique Laborde
Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
- [34:19]
Bridget Armstrong
Well, I don't know about you. But like, I never liked being told,
- [34:23]
Monique Laborde
oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that?
- [34:27]
Bridget Armstrong
Why don't you just say you look
- [34:29]
Monique Laborde
great at any age, Every age.
- [34:32]
Bridget Armstrong
That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [36:06]
Bridget Armstrong
All right, we're back for the final part of this conversation about the Netflix doc. Tyra had a huge platform with this docuseries and I'm not going to say I'm surprised, but I am disappointed that she didn't really take accountability in this docuseries for what went wrong on antm.
- [36:24]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, and the biggest example of the fact that she is not taking accountability for what she what went wrong on ANTM is that this doc came out at the same time as the reboot was announced for cycle 25 of ANTM.
- [36:43]
Bridget Armstrong
Have we not gone through enough? Like so when I was watching the doc and knowing that we reached out to her, didn't get any response. I didn't want to do the show. And you know, it was announced that she was going to the Netflix doc and I thought like, oh, maybe because Netflix is this huge platform. She's, she's going to do the biggest platform. If she's going to address all these things, she's going to address it for once and for all on Netflix. Right. That's what I thought was her motivation for doing this in the first place. But by the time we got to the end of this doc where she's like, I'm not finished yet. Truly terrifying words. Right. By the time we get to that and she says season 25, I'm like, okay, this is the reason why she. This is why. This was her justification. Because I don't think Tyra's going to do anything that's not going to benefit her.
- [37:29]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, I think you're right.
- [37:30]
Bridget Armstrong
Yeah. Being on this docuseries was just a soft launch for the next season, something we certainly don't need. For me, if there is going to be another season, I actually think Tyra should be pretty far away from it. I have a small criticism about Netflix reality shows. They're a little too earnest for me. Right. Like, love is blind is a ridiculous idea. And we're all like, the way the show is shot is like, this could actually work. And these people are for real. And this isn't the silliest thing you've ever seen, you know, I mean, even take a show like Kurai. Very earnest, very like, sweet, wholesome moments.
- [38:06]
Monique Laborde
Yeah.
- [38:06]
Bridget Armstrong
I think that's gonna be kind of the tone of the season 25 ANTM reboot. I think that is gonna be Tyra trying to show her accountability. But the problem. One. One problem. We're still not gonna know what's happening behind the scenes and if these contestants are being treated fairly. Right. Two, Tara's stigma is already. You come into it with that stigma. And then three, I think that something you brought up when we were talking, it has a structural issue, like the show itself has a structural issue. So I'm wondering how you think they might approach that in a reboot.
- [38:41]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, I mean, the structural issue that we talked about in the podcast, which is that the industry does not welcome reality TV stars. The real high fashion industry, like, if these girls want to be on the COVID of Vogue, the industry does not welcome people from reality tv. But it's also true that the world is really different right now. Like, we have Instagram models. We have different opportunities than we had 20 years ago when this show was first popular. So I think there are ways that the show can try to place them better in their careers and establish them better in their careers. That's the biggest thing that. Well, there's a lot of Big things they need to do. I completely agree with you that the best thing Tyra could do would be to put someone else in that hosting role, put Winnie Harlow in that hosting role and step away from the show. That would be the best thing she could do. I don't think she's gonna do that because I think she wants to be in the spotlight. There's all kinds of things that I hope that they are doing better in this reboot. But the biggest thing in terms of what was so sad in producing the podcast was hearing so many of these women who making it as a model, as a supermodel was their dream. So I do hope that the show structurally does more to place them in a successful career, in successful career opportunities after, you know, Whoever wins cycle 25. But it's. It's a bad idea. Just, it's. We don't want it. I don't think.
- [40:09]
Bridget Armstrong
I don't want it either. Okay. There's a few ways that I could maybe like it. Maybe one, I agree with everything you said. Tyra needs to be far, far, far away from this thing. But I think if they involve some of the models, like, if they brought them back on to be mentors or to in some capacity, right. Like, we know Kenya, who we spoke to, has like, I think a consulting agency where she works with, like, aspiring models. It'd be great to see her come on. Sarah Hartshorn said that she worked as a model for years. She's not working as a model anymore. But if they would be up for it, I would love to see them be involved in some way, whether it's as judges or mentors or something like that, and obviously would love for them to be actually compensated this time. That could be interesting. One other thing, though, and I completely agree with you, that I don't think that Tyra's gonna stay out of the spotlight on this one. It's because it strikes me as this is Tyra's payback, right? So Tyra said on this documentary that the. When she originally did ANTM, so back in 2002, this was like her payback to all of the agencies or fashion industry gatekeepers who body shamed her, who closed doors in her face, who didn't pay her as much, who basically she felt marginalized, right? This was her payback by having a show. They have a magazine, but she has an entire TV show. Like, everybody's seeing her. And so I thought about that in the sense of like, yes, your goal, right, is to elevate people in modeling who Otherwise wouldn't get an opportunity. Right. Or to show diverse beauty. That might have been a goal. But if your number one goal is payback, all you need to be is successful. You need to continue to be successful because the payback is your success. And you'll go through, you'll take great measures to do that. And we've seen like, the exploiting of women, the manipulation, all of this stuff, to continue to be successful and be on top. Because that's your payback. To me, season 25 is almost the payback to, like, all the people who've been calling her out. We know she's not accountable. We know she doesn't really actually feel accountable. At least that's not how she presents herself. She's not like, deeply, sincerely sorry. Right. So to me, season 25 is almost like a payback to show y' all that, like, see, I can do this. Like, I can, I can be a good mentor. I can, I can do the actual thing I set out to do as opposed to like, oh, I'm coming back because I still see a purpose for me in this, or I still want to help young women. I think you just want to come back to prove a point. Just like creating antm. What's the prove a point?
- [42:47]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, I think that's a really smart take and I hope that that's not what it looks like. I hope that they reckon with the first version of ANTM at the beginning of the reboot in some way. I feel like they have to. So I'm curious to see what that looks like.
- [43:02]
Bridget Armstrong
But I don't know if it's going to work this time. Right. Because not only do we have our podcast and this Netflix docuseries, which is not that kind to Tyra, there's the E docuseries from Last Entertainment from our production company that's coming out in March. That really does not do Tyra any favors, that one. I think for people who, and even the models themselves who feel like the Netflix doc didn't really focus enough on the models, where they are, what happened to them, this doc really does it and it really sort of like brings up all of these things that you can directly tie back to Tyra, right?
- [43:42]
Monique Laborde
Uh huh. We got an early screener of the Edoc that's airing in a few weeks and you hear more from the models and it, I think, brings up different points about Tyra and her involvement in the show that we didn't hear in this doc. It brings up, I think, harder points about the psych evals the contracts, the lack of payments, the manipulation. I think it really features that side of this even more than the Netflix doc did. So I'm looking forward to seeing what people think of that and if that changes the way this reboot is gonna go.
- [44:17]
Bridget Armstrong
And if you think about it, it's just been a constant reckoning for ANTM since our show premiered in September. Right. Then the Netflix doc drops in February, and now this EDOC on March 11th is dropping. So it's just like Tyra can't escape it. Like, at every point where she's like, woo, okay, the talk has died down. It's like another thing comes out that's like, ah, Tyra, not so fast. So I just don't know if this, like, season 25 reboot is gonna do what she thinks it's about to do because people have been primed to like, criticize anything Tyra's about to do. Because, like, you've literally probably just listened to like 24 hours of Tyra criticism. But yeah, I'm interested to see what people's reaction is to this Edoc because I think there are some things that, I mean, it's literally called Dirty Rotten Scandals. Like, there are some things in that that are truly shocking, truly disturbing that happened on the ANTM set, that happened to these young women. And one of the things, I'm not going to spoil it. One of the things I like about the edoc is that, you know, we. We had at the end of the Netflix documentary just sort of like a Where are they now? Just a sort of quick, where are they now?
- [45:30]
Monique Laborde
It felt flat to me, like it felt tacked on at the end. It felt like an abrupt ending with the actual. What we're really talking about here, which is the contestants and how the show negatively impacted their lives.
- [45:43]
Bridget Armstrong
Absolutely. I mean, the edoc, the one coming out March 11, that one does a really good job of sort of showing us the contestants lives. Now. I think that's actually one of my favorite parts because, yeah, the Netflix socket sort of fell flat even. I think if we had taken that approach, just sort of hearing that, like, yeah, I'm a mom, I'm a, you know, yeah, I have this business and whatever, it doesn't hit the same as like, seeing the model with like, their teenage son, where you're like, oh, my gosh, how do you have a teenager? Or seeing them work with young aspiring models, like, seeing them in their element. Because I think ultimately we can't lose sight of the fact that in this story, these models were affected in negative ways. But I think it. It's good to know that, like, they. They still made a life for themselves and they still found a path. It may not have been modeling, but they found paths to do things that are fulfilling. And I think that the E. Docuseries just really does a great job of, like, driving that home.
- [46:39]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, I'm excited for people to see it. We've also gotten a lot of questions, which is, are you doing another season of Curse of? Are you gonna do another podcast series like antm? And the truth is, Bridget, you and I are scheming on something right now. Scheme.
- [46:57]
Bridget Armstrong
Scheme, Plot. Plot. We are working on a season two of Curse of. Very excited about it. We can't quite tell you what it is, but just know there are some similar themes and some new themes that we're gonna explore with this particular thing we're taking on. So, like, yeah, super excited.
- [47:17]
Monique Laborde
Yeah. So stay tuned. Stay subscribed to Curse of. And later this year in the summer, we should have season two.
- [47:25]
Bridget Armstrong
Well, Mo, thank you for talking this out with me. Like, I've been talking to people about this doc and, you know, it's been really cool. Cause I'm like, yes. Now everybody is like, obsessed like me. But, like, there's so many things that people just found out with the doc. Right? So, like, I'm like, yeah. Yes. Yeah.
- [47:41]
Monique Laborde
Yes.
- [47:41]
Bridget Armstrong
Sarah did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I know she said that. Cause I'm like, been thinking about it for the whole past year. So it's great to talk to you who's also been thinking about these things. So we could just like, get in on the nitty gritty of like, did you see how Tyra held her eyebrow up when asked about season 24? Yeah, like that. So, yeah, this has been great. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [48:03]
Monique Laborde
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Bridget.
- [48:07]
Bridget Armstrong
And that's all for this very special bonus episode. Thanks for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and singer produced by me, Bridgette Armstrong. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Kristin Melcurry and Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krynczyk. Audio editing and mixing on this episode by Matt Del Vecchio. The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by My Music and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Also check out the Glass podcast Instagram for Curse of America's Next Top Model behind the Scene.
- [49:27]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's Stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for store wide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Oreo, Haagen, Dazs, Charmin, Tide, Sparkling, Ice, Reese. Then click the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for terms and conditions. Are you a fraud paying American? 1 in 4 tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud with Lifelock. If your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed or your money back. Last year billions in refunds were stolen. Could be from your salary, overtime or second job gone. But this year you don't need to stay a victim because this tax season fraud paying American is something no American should have to claim. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com
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Monique Laborde
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Bridget Armstrong
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Monique Laborde
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Ryan Seacrest
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Bridget Armstrong
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Bridget Armstrong
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