Cybersecurity Today

Episode: Understanding Cybersecurity Threats: Insights from Intelligence Experts

Host: Jim Love
Guests: Neil Bisson (retired CSIS intelligence officer, founder of Global Intelligence Knowledge Network), David Shipley (cybersecurity expert)
Date: November 22, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the evolving landscape of cybersecurity threats with unique insights from intelligence expert Neil Bisson, formerly with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS), and recurring guest David Shipley. The discussion explores how nation-state actors, non-state groups, and the blending of traditional espionage with cyber operations threaten the private and public sectors. The conversation covers real-world breaches, the role of big data in modern spying, the intersection of corporate and national interests, and practical advice for organizational defenses. The tone is candid, engaging, and at times witty, making complex topics accessible.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Backgrounds and Expertise (00:40–01:51)

• Neil Bisson introduces himself as a retired CSIS officer (1980s–2020), now focused on educating the public and media about intelligence and cybersecurity.
• He highlights the creation of the Global Intelligence Knowledge Network to bridge public understanding between national security, cyber threats, and current events.

“After I retired I realized that there’s still a lot of work to be done… I took it upon myself to start the Global Intelligence Knowledge Network.”
— Neil Bisson (00:49)

2. Shifting Landscape of Espionage (02:43–06:17)

• Digital transformation has fundamentally changed intelligence operations and data collection—it’s easier than ever to gather information on targets thanks to social media and digital communications.
• State and non-state actors leverage publicly available and stolen data for targeting, manipulation (social engineering), and recruitment.

“Back in the day, when we’re talking a little bit more old school espionage, we would try to find as much information about an individual... Nowadays it’s so much easier to do that because as I said, we all live digitally.”
— Neil Bisson (03:40)

• Big data: Breaches like Anthem, Marriott, and Equifax are not isolated—they fuel massive datasets for targeting by nation-states.

“All this is being funneled into a data set. One can imagine analysis… looking for those motivational levers.”
— David Shipley (04:29)

• Even basic incentives can prompt individuals to give up sensitive information.

“People will give up their passwords for a chocolate bar.”
— David Shipley (05:55)

3. Cyber Espionage: Business and National Interests (06:17–10:26)

• The business aspect of espionage has always existed—not just military or ideological competition. Technology transfer fuels economic and military advantage.

“It was always about money over ideology because it takes money to run ideology.”
— David Shipley (06:29)

• Innovations today often originate in the private sector, not the military. This shift has increased the value of targeting corporations.

• Case studies: Nortel and Hydro-Quebec—Canadian innovations “miraculously” reappearing in foreign competitors, often due to IP theft.

“Let’s just take IP and use it ourselves.”
— Neil Bisson (09:39)

• Government research institutions (like Canada’s NRC) are also prime targets.

4. Expanding Threats to the Private Sector (11:33–14:32)

• Intelligence agencies traditionally focused on national security (terrorism, espionage, sabotage) but now recognize private industry as soft and valuable targets.

“What’s happening in the corporate and private industry world, what's happening with research and development is just as important as a terrorist entity trying to perpetrate an attack in Canada.”
— Neil Bisson (12:41)

• The overlap between national and corporate interests is essential in today’s threat landscape.
• Governments are beginning to work more proactively with industry.

5. The Key Players in Cyber Attacks (16:42–19:53)

• Four main nation-state threats: China, Russia, Iran, and North Korea.

China

• Collects massive datasets to profile future targets—timelines can stretch 10–15 years.
• Example: The Equifax breach—145 million Americans’ data is now parsed by Chinese databases.

“They are probably churning it through hundreds of different databases to try to get a profile of every individual that they possibly can.”
— Neil Bisson (17:06)

• Long-term strategy not hampered by regime changes.

Russia

• Focuses on military disruption, sabotage, information warfare.
• Uses hybrid attacks (cyber sabotage + physical attacks) to destabilize opponents (e.g., Ukraine, Estonia).

Iran

• Targets defense, aerospace, and AI companies, especially for info on nuclear and military tech.

North Korea

• Motivated by financial gain via ransomware, crypto theft, and espionage.

Other Notables:

• India, Israel, “Allies”: Not to be underestimated. Allies spy on allies too; Israel provides effective cyber tools used globally (e.g., Pegasus).
• Everyone plays: “If we were to lock out everyone who spied on us, there would be the G1.”
  — Jim Love (38:07)

6. Critical Infrastructure and Corporate Infiltration (23:58–32:27)

• APT groups (Cozy Bear, Stone Panda, Salt Typhoon) act like contractors for nation-states, often with state-sanctioned plausible deniability.
• Infiltration can go undetected for years; compromised infrastructure is the norm, not the exception.
• Real-world consequences: electricity grids, water plants, grain silos—vulnerable to cyber-physical attacks; past incidents in Estonia cited.

“Sometimes it can be years before a company or a department or an organization even knows they’ve been infiltrated. And the unfortunate thing is, at that point in time, it’s too late.”
— Neil Bisson (24:15)

“The wires, the digital infrastructure, the highway to do this is the same road. It’s a matter of intentionality.”
— David Shipley (38:32)

• Canada, like many countries, is catching up legislatively and operationally to these threats.

7. Espionage Motivations and Attribution Problems (32:27–39:12)

• Stuxnet is a pivotal example—cyber tools as state-on-state weapons.

• Motivation varies by state: Israel is highly aggressive due to constant security threats; China’s government influences every private company.

• Attribution is difficult—often impossible to “prove” who is behind a cyber attack (plausible deniability).

• The ethical line between “spying” and “sabotage” is increasingly blurred.

“All intelligence is for the future purpose of potential sabotage. You can’t differentiate between the two...”
— Neil Bisson (38:38)

8. Complexities of National and Corporate Security Choices (33:58–38:38)

• Policy and profit priorities often trump security: Regulatory agencies may prioritize low costs or economic relationships over security, leading to risky technology adoption (“the lack of imagination”).
• Five Eyes partnerships drive collective standards (e.g., pushback against Huawei after partner consensus).

9. Practical Advice for Organizations (40:49–43:30)

• Know your employees and contractors: Vet remote hires, especially for key-access roles.
• Monitor intelligence trends: Assign someone to track relevant breach/disclosure news and apply lessons learned.

“Every vulnerability that is discovered at another company is a vulnerability that your company itself might face.”
— Neil Bisson (41:11)

• Don’t assume government protection: Organizations must take responsibility for their own cybersecurity, as state protection is not guaranteed.

“No one from Washington or Ottawa is automatically magically waving a wand protecting you right now from all the nation state threats that exist. No one’s doing that for you. You have to protect yourself.”
— David Shipley (42:02)

• Build peer relationships: Intelligence agencies in Canada and the U.S. are more available than ever—reach out when you notice something odd.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On nation-state motivation:
  “You can say a lot of horrible things about authoritarian regime, but the one thing that you’ve got to give them credit for is that they can make decisions for what’s going to happen over the next five, 10, 15, 20 years.”
  — Neil Bisson (17:56)

• On risk to small organizations:
  “We are in a new era. It’s more akin to the feudal era… those who are powerful governments, large corporations live in the castles and the rest of us serfs are out in the village getting raided by the Vikings.”
  — David Shipley (42:20)

• On the expanding rules of engagement:
  “We need a Geneva Convention 2.0 that says, no, you’re not allowed to be in a hospital… power plant, period, full stop. That is a violation of international norms.”
  — David Shipley (32:01)

• On the role of intelligence in business:
  “States are like businesses. They have a business plan… If you can become aware of that, you can build the defenses you need to counteract it.”
  — Neil Bisson (41:29)

• On the futility of perfect defense:
  “You’re not bad because you get hacked by the Chinese. To Jim’s point, like, good luck defending yourself against the cyber army that’s larger than most countries’ military.”
  — David Shipley (43:11)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:40–01:51: Neil Bisson background and intelligence perspective
• 02:43–06:17: Digital transformation and big data in espionage
• 06:17–10:26: Business and technological espionage, Nortel & Hydro-Quebec cases
• 11:33–14:32: National security vs. corporate vulnerability; the shift in threats
• 16:42–19:53: The big nation-state players: China, Russia, Iran, North Korea
• 23:58–32:27: APTs, critical infrastructure infiltration, attribution, plausible deniability
• 32:27–39:12: Motivations, Stuxnet, blurred lines between intelligence and sabotage
• 40:49–43:30: Defensive advice: know your people, proactive intelligence, collective security

Closing Thoughts

This episode delivers a sobering but actionable overview of the modern cybersecurity threat landscape, blending first-hand intelligence experience with practical advice for organizations of all sizes. Listeners come away with a stronger sense of how deeply cyber threats permeate both national and corporate boundaries, the motivations behind attackers, and the vital steps companies should take to protect themselves.

For those seeking regular updates on these trends, Neil Bisson’s “Global Intelligence Weekly Wrap-up” podcast is recommended (link to be provided in episode notes).

Next Episode Preview:
The series continues with a focus on how intelligence tradecraft can help organizations defend against psychological attacks and social engineering, with Neil Bisson and David Shipley returning.