Digital Mindhunters: a novel look at cybersecurity and artificial intelligence. [Special Edition]

Summary

CyberWire Daily Special Edition Summary: "Digital Mindhunters: A Novel Look at Cybersecurity and Artificial Intelligence"

Introduction to the Episode In this special edition of CyberWire Daily, host Brandon Karpf engages in an in-depth conversation with Dr. Billiana Lilly, a renowned CEO, cybersecurity advisor, and author. The focus of their discussion centers on Dr. Lilly's latest novel, Digital Mindhunters, which delves into the intricate worlds of cybersecurity and artificial intelligence (AI).

Overview of "Digital Mindhunters" Digital Mindhunters presents a gripping narrative set in a high-stakes environment where espionage and deception intertwine with advanced AI technologies. The story follows a female analyst who uncovers a Russian plot to utilize AI for espionage and disinformation, aiming to create chaos within the United States. As she endeavors to thwart an assassination plot, she becomes entangled in international intrigue, simultaneously facing a parallel threat from a Chinese spy network intent on stealing data, manipulating American voters, and undermining the foundations of U.S. democracy.

Inspiration and Research Behind the Book Dr. Lilly shares the genesis of her novel, highlighting her transition from academic and fact-based research to creative fiction. Her extensive background in nuclear disarmament and cybersecurity provided a solid foundation, but it was her proactive engagement with experts worldwide that enriched her storytelling.

"Most of my characters are inspired by people I know personally. They’re tributes to the heroes in the field who often go unsung," Dr. Lilly explains (02:57). This personal touch is evident in the novel, with subtle "Easter eggs" that mirror real-life personas, offering a layer of authenticity and homage to her professional community.

Themes Explored in the Book Dr. Lilly emphasizes that Digital Mindhunters goes beyond traditional cybersecurity narratives by focusing on how information warfare affects every individual, not just high-ranking officials or military personnel.

"Information warfare targets every single individual. It's not just the decision-makers; it's every citizen," she states (07:17). The novel portrays how disinformation campaigns can infiltrate personal lives, making every reader a potential target. This theme underscores the pervasive nature of modern cyber threats and the vulnerability of everyday activities to manipulation.

Real-World Context and Examples The discussion shifts to real-world influence operations, particularly those orchestrated by Russia and China. Dr. Lilly provides concrete examples of how these nations employ sophisticated tactics to influence and destabilize other countries.

"There is a campaign called the Voice of Europe that sponsored far-right politicians with Russian money to influence European politics," Dr. Lilly reveals (10:19). Such operations highlight the ongoing battle in information warfare, where external actors exploit societal divisions to further their agendas.

Regarding China, Dr. Lilly points out their relentless efforts in cyber espionage and influence operations. She references the theft of intellectual property from U.S. companies and the manipulation of public opinion through disinformation campaigns.

"Chinese cyber operations are expected to increase against U.S. critical infrastructure and through influence operations," she forecasts (32:07). This insight aligns with the novel's depiction of a Chinese spy network aiming to undermine U.S. democracy.

Dr. Lilly's Personal Experiences A particularly captivating segment of the conversation recounts Dr. Lilly's firsthand experience at a Russian military expo. This true story serves as a foundation for the novel's opening scene.

"I spoke to a Russian soldier who grabbed my phone and chased me. It was terrifying, but a U.S. general intervened and diffused the situation," Dr. Lilly narrates (25:28). This harrowing encounter not only adds depth to her character but also provides readers with a vivid portrayal of the real dangers faced in the field of cybersecurity and international relations.

Current Cybersecurity Landscape Brandon and Dr. Lilly tackle pressing issues in the current geopolitical climate, including the ongoing war in Ukraine and escalating tensions with China.

Dr. Lilly criticizes the delayed support to Ukraine, suggesting that earlier intervention could have altered the course of the conflict. She also anticipates increased cyber aggression from China in response to rising tariffs and trade wars initiated by the U.S. administration.

"China has long-term strategies that outlast our administrations. Their cyber operations are meticulously planned and executed over decades," she observes (32:07). This perspective underscores the complexity and persistence of cyber threats posed by nation-states.

Writing Process and Lessons Learned Dr. Lilly reflects on her journey in novel writing, highlighting the challenges of infusing emotion and depth into her characters. Feedback from peers prompted her to enhance the emotional landscape of her protagonist, Riley, ensuring she is not just a vessel for information but a relatable and multi-dimensional character.

"I learned to express myself better by adding description and emotion. Riley carries her patriotism like armor, but she needed more emotional depth," Dr. Lilly admits (22:52). This evolution in her writing process is evident in the nuanced portrayal of Riley's struggles and motivations.

Conclusion and Future Directions Dr. Lilly aspires for Digital Mindhunters to reach a broad audience, not only entertaining readers but also educating them about the pervasive threats of information warfare and cyber manipulation.

"I want everyone, even those who don’t listen to this podcast, to read this book and understand the cyber threats we face," she expresses (20:21). The novel is positioned as both a thrilling read and a cautionary tale, making it an ideal gift for the holiday season.

Looking ahead, Dr. Lilly hints at future projects that may delve deeper into Chinese influence operations and the enduring Israeli-Palestinian conflict, aiming to maintain the blend of factual insight and engaging storytelling that defines her work.

Closing Remarks Brandon commends Dr. Lilly for her comprehensive research and compelling narrative, emphasizing the book's relevance in today's digital age. He highlights the importance of making complex cybersecurity issues accessible through fiction, enhancing public understanding and awareness.

"In a world where lies are a weapon and trust is a luxury, Riley must navigate the treacherous worlds of arms dealers, hackers, and spies to protect her country," Brandon reiterates the book's powerful opening line (43:26).

Dr. Billiana Lilly's Digital Mindhunters emerges as a significant contribution to both fiction and cybersecurity discourse, offering readers a captivating exploration of contemporary cyber threats and the heroes working to counter them.

Notable Quotes:

• "Most of my characters are inspired by people I know personally. They’re tributes to the heroes in the field who often go unsung." — Dr. Billiana Lilly (02:57)
• "Information warfare targets every single individual. It's not just the decision-makers; it's every citizen." — Dr. Billiana Lilly (07:17)
• "Chinese cyber operations are expected to increase against U.S. critical infrastructure and through influence operations." — Dr. Billiana Lilly (32:07)
• "I want everyone, even those who don’t listen to this podcast, to read this book and understand the cyber threats we face." — Dr. Billiana Lilly (20:21)

Recommendation Digital Mindhunters is highly recommended for cybersecurity professionals, enthusiasts, and general readers interested in understanding the nuanced and often hidden battles in the digital realm. Its blend of factual accuracy and imaginative storytelling makes it both an enlightening and entertaining read.

For more information and to purchase the book, listeners are encouraged to follow the links provided in the show notes.

Transcript

[Billiana Lilly]

You're listening to the Cyberwire network powered by N2K.

[Brandon Karpf]

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[Billiana Lilly]

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[Brandon Karpf]

Hello and thanks for joining us on this N2K CyberWire Special Edition, Dr. Billiana Lilly, CEO, Cybersecurity Advisor and Author, speaks with N2K CyberWire's Executive Editor Brandon Karpf about her new novel, Digital Mind Hunters.

[Podcast Host]

And we are welcoming Back to the pod Dr. Billiana Lilly. Billiana, so great to have you back.

[Billiana Lilly]

Thank you for having me back, Brandon. I'm really glad to be here again.

[Podcast Host]

So today what we want to do is we want to dive in deep and spend a lot of time on your new book. This is not your first book. I believe it's your third, right?

[Billiana Lilly]

That's right.

[Podcast Host]

It's your third book and you are no stranger to this audience. Everyone here should know you as an expert in information warfare and the geopolitical environment. This book is a little different. It covers on those topics, but this is your first foray into novel writing. So I just want to read the description here because this book is a lot of fun. So the book title is Digital Mindhunters. So in a high stakes game of espionage and deception, a female analyst uncovers Russia's plot to wield artificial intelligence, espionage and disinformation as weapons of chaos against the United States. As she races against time to thwart an assassination plot, she finds herself entangled in a web of international intrigue and discovers a parallel threat from a Chinese spy network aiming to steal data, manipulate American voters, and harness technology to dismantle the very foundations of US democracy. So this really does have it all. I think it covers the environment very well, especially this year, 2024. Can we start with where did this come from?

[Billiana Lilly]

Oh, that's a great first question. So many answers, Brandon. Where did it come. So throughout my career I've been always an academic and I always stick to fact based research. But throughout my experiences I'm also, I tend to be extroverted and I talk to a lot of people because I discovered that I first started as a. In the. In nuclear disarmament and nuclear terrorism and missile defense. That was my focus at United nations in Geneva. And a lot of the treaties that I was working with, they were already well established from years before I joined the field. And there was a lot of literature to consume on the topic and it was already written and peer reviewed. But when I switched to cybersecurity and information warfare, our field is so fast paced and it's changing and evolving all the time. And in order to be up to date on the latest developments, you have to talk to people. You can just sit at home, you can go through blogs and communicate with a lot of experts and peers, of course, online. But speaking to people is so important. So throughout my research for my second book, Russian Information Warfare, I went to a lot of countries closer to Russia and countries in Europe and I started talking to people and government officials, intelligence officers, they started telling me about cases that have not been published that I started to dig into. So I realized there is. So our field is so fascinating and we have so many creative characters, both on the, on the villain side or the enemies or adversaries, and on the defender side. And those heroes aren't celebrated enough. So I wanted through this book to play a little bit with the information that I have that I usually like create articles that are. There's no, no feeling in them, no creativity. But I wanted this to be more emotional, to be more creative, and to be also a tribute to a lot of my friends in the field. So almost every character is inspired by someone I know. And if you read the book, there are some little Easter eggs throughout it that only people that would read their character would know it's them because they're very personal. So that's also a shout out to our community. And I wanted to show how diverse and awesome it is.

[Podcast Host]

I mean that makes sense to me, especially in the context of that you shared of your early career working in nuclear treaties and some of those other technological policy fields where as you said, there were years of negotiations, international law, treaties, agreements around those technologies. We don't have that yet in artificial intelligence or even in really cyber operations. I mean the TALON manual, but that's hardly would be considered an international agreement or treaty, even in information warfare. I mean, information warfare has existed for centuries, but there are no treaties on that. So I like your approach of how do we contend with these things where there's sure a lot of literature but no formal documentation. And one of the ways that we can contend with that is through fiction.

[Billiana Lilly]

I agree with that. And some aspects of information warfare that I really wanted to, to show in the book, but not only tell people about them, I wanted to show them is that information warfare and that type of threat targets every single individual. It's not just the decision makers, it's not just the soldiers on the battlefield. It's every single person that's a citizen of a particular country or in a particular country that becomes a target. And we don't really talk about this as much. A lot of and for a good reason, a lot of the US constituents, they care about their backyard, they care about their community, about the topics that are they relevant to their day to day lives. They don't care about whether the Russians and the Chinese are launching cyber attacks against the Pentagon. But the disinformation narratives, they reach them because a lot of them, they have evolved to a point where they target the individual down to the household level. So I tried to show for a few stories of more unwitting participants. In that case there are some more pejorative terms like useful idiots. I tend to stay away from those because at some point, I guarantee you, every single one of us has clicked on a story they shouldn't have clicked on. So I think all of us belong to that particular group. So I tried to show that as well. Like this issue affects all of us. No matter what level of your career development you are or whether you work for the government or the military or.

[Podcast Host]

Not, everyone has vulnerabilities, everyone is a target and everyone's capable of experiencing that level of manipulation because we're all emotional and we all have those various beliefs and wants and needs and desires and that can be manipulated by a witting adversary. And you show that in this book. I mean, you show that very clearly that it is more than just the decision makers. Can you maybe walk us through in recent past some of the stories you drew on for influence and to guide your writing?

[Billiana Lilly]

Sure. For example, I'm originally from Bulgaria and I speak the language, which I'm glad not many people speak it because it will be a waste of your time to study Bulgarian. Go study Mandarin or Russian, something more useful. Or French. Don't study Bulgarian. But since I was born in the country and I spoke it for 19 years before I left, I speak Bulgarian. So I looked at a lot of primary sources when I started doing my research on Russian information warfare. And I've known this before from before I've heard rumors and then I confirmed through actual literature that a number of Bulgarian journalists, a number of high level politicians, influential politicians in my own home country, have been influenced by Russia because they studied in Russia, because they've received funding from Russia. And all of those stories show how you can have a Manchurian Candidate in your own country and you can say, hey, but Billiona, that's like Eastern Europe. No one cares. It's so close to Russia. We're the United States of America here. We're different.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Billiana Lilly]

But over the past year, if you look at how the Russians have been behaving all across Europe, and that's not only in Bulgaria, that's in Finland, in Sweden, there are many cases where the Russians have actually sponsored individuals or worked with influencers from different countries. And there's this very interesting campaign that was revealed earlier this year that's called the Voice of Europe campaign. There is a website in the Czech Republic, in Prague, I think, that was set up supposedly to give voice to far right politicians in Europe. And it was used to actually sponsor those politicians with Russian money to influence European politics and to propagate anti Ukrainian views throughout Europe. Those are the types of techniques that the Russian government is known very well to have used over decades already in countries closer to Russia and now in Germany and the Netherlands, and I believe in the United States. We had several indictments recently that showed that there are influencers that have been receiving money from Russia. And that's typical for them. That's a part of their playbook.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, there were just in the last few months, those podcasters that were getting paid like $100,000 an episode. And I mean, we're on a podcast right now. I can tell the audience that's not how much money we make per episode.

[Billiana Lilly]

Brandon, do you know your sources? How well, do you know your sources?

[Podcast Host]

I mean, and we're a pretty successful company, but 100,000 episode is insane, absolutely insane. But you know, again, you know, because the examples you gave far right influencers, far right media personalities, the examples that we had in the last few months in this country, Tim Pool and others, again, more far right, kind of reactionary. I don't even want to use the term right, because it's really reactionary. But it does seem, and maybe this is partly just my impression or what we hear about in news, that the Russians specifically tend to push these reactionary type characters. Why is it the reactionaries, as opposed to the collectivists that they are promoting in this way?

[Billiana Lilly]

Extreme narratives thrive on emotion and ignorance. And we are today where, especially in the United States, we're so conditioned to taking our news from irreputable sources, from X, from Reddit. This is like the fast food, the junk food of our media consumption. Why do we get news from there versus the healthy stuff, which is reputable sources, Newspapers that have existed for decades and have a reputation for producing high quality fact based articles like that's, that's one of the issues. So they thrive on that unregulated wild west environment that our information space has become. And they look for individuals that already have existing grievances and they amplify them and they will focus on those people, on those marginalized groups and push them because they already are prone to extremist beliefs, prone to perhaps violence. And then you have the Russian narratives or Chinese narratives, sorry, Iranian narratives, that just serve as the matchbox that just lights the fire.

[Podcast Host]

Understood. Well, you know the other component that you had included in this book, beyond just the, I shouldn't say just the, but beyond the assassination plot, beyond the artificial intelligence manipulating assassinations, we'll replace them. But there was this other component of the Chinese spy network and stealing data, right? And it was just like the stealing of data, just collecting massive amounts of data. And can you kind of. Where did that come from? And how does that play into this larger environment in our world? Right, but obviously represented in your novel China.

[Billiana Lilly]

That's like the number one thread. Like I literally just plagiarized. I didn't even have to be creative there. You just have to start reading literature on what the Chinese have been doing for decades.

[Podcast Host]

Even back to Apt 1, right?

[Billiana Lilly]

Oh God, yes. The first report, which was great by the way. I've read that report and I am so glad that the US government that we. It saw the light of day. How about that? That it became publicly available and then from there set a precedent for our cyber freight intelligence culture. And I think that's a threat that we will start probably because of the administration that now is going to take the White House. We're going to see more of a focus on China, which I think is a great development regardless of which side you're on during the elections. I think that's one silver lining we can look at. I think the Chinese government has gone largely without consequences for a long time and they're stealing information IP from companies that are on US soil, that are critical infrastructure for companies that have presence in China. And they have been very aggressive towards Taiwan, towards Hong Kong. And those are topics that I am glad to see that we're going to hopefully start addressing and paying more attention to.

[Podcast Host]

Right. Well, and in the context of digital mindhunters, you know, reading this, it's like one thing after another. It's just nonstop, all these plots and schemes and adversaries and capabilities and at the end, and it's fun, it's engaging and as a casual reader, I find myself going, well, yeah, I mean, of course it's fiction that's a lot of fun. But what I hear you saying is, is this is real, this is how, this is what's actually happening.

[Billiana Lilly]

I spoke to my editor and my editor is like Billiana, there are too many friends. You have to focus on one. Your reader will be too distracted. They can take a breath. But then I'm like, but this is what the US is facing on daily basis. If you're a critical infrastructure company, a hospital, one day you're fighting ransomware from North Korea, the other day it's from Russia. Then you have a espionage campaign from China. The threats don't wait for each other. They're not like in line and you're waiting like conveyor line to face one actor than another. They're attacking us all constantly. And I think it's. I wanted to convey that action packed landscape because this is what we are facing as the United States as still a leader globally. And I believe that hopefully also shows a little bit of them the challenges that our media faces and our government faces and our organizations, especially the private sector companies that are small and medium sized companies that don't have necessarily the resources of our adversaries because our adversaries are nation states. And then you hear that they've hacked a dam in Texas, a water dam in Texas. But like the poor water dam, it doesn't have thousands of millions of dollars that the Russians are pouring into their cyber forces to attack that dam. That's a very asymmetric threat, and I wanted to show how. Targets could be individuals, they could be small companies, they could be people that are completely out of our field, but they're targeted by sophisticated adversaries that have built their resources, capabilities and tactics and strategies for years.

[Brandon Karpf]

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[Podcast Host]

The important thing that's sticking out in my mind is even though this is a novel, it's still very useful because it's representing very real threats in very real ways. And it's representing those threats in a way that is much more approachable for the average reader and even the layperson who might not be steeped in this world, certainly not like you are. What is the ideal end state then for this book? I mean, who do you want reading this and what do you Want them to take away from this.

[Billiana Lilly]

I want the people that are not listening to this podcast to read this book. I want every single person that listens to this podcast to recommend it to someone who doesn't.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. Hey, Christmas present. A Christmas present, right? Christmas. I mean, coming up.

[Billiana Lilly]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Podcast Host]

And why, and why is that? Why is it, why is it those people?

[Billiana Lilly]

Because we focus so much on the code and not the context. But the context matters a great deal. The strategies behind these threat actors, the way their thinking is shaped, their end goals. They're usually written in Mandarin or Russia and now we have translations and we talk about those ideas in think tanks and we use technical jargon, but the targets are individuals that are not in these fields. So I want people to be entertained but also learn from that book and condition themselves to think that what they're reading online, the types of emails they're clicking on, they may have someone behind them that is a nation state level threat actor that is attacking them for different purposes, not just for themselves, but their channels to a much larger goal. So I'm hoping. Yeah, it's a, it's a great Christmas present actually. And it has some, you know, some Christmasy colors, a little bit of red, pink on the COVID So it fits with that theme as well. Yeah, I think, I think that would be a good book. Someone told me they read it on the plane in one go. So I'm already hearing from different friends who are about to write reviews and are sending me really positive comments. So with that context well received, I.

[Podcast Host]

Might send it to my sister and my dad. I mean, I love that context, but perfect. Well, so you clearly did a tremendous amount of research for this book and of course that's part of your life. That's what you do. You're a well known respected analyst and advisor to many organizations. But when writing this book, going through the process and really putting the finishing touches on it, what did you learn? What did you learn while writing this and publishing this?

[Billiana Lilly]

Someone told me. So the book had eight drafts, I think, and by the way, thank you for reading one of them. You suffered through one of the last ones, but it, it was still terrible. Especially there was a lot of lecturing, especially in the beginning. So I think one of the main things was that stuck with me was first of all, how to write better. I had a lot of friends go through a lot of the earlier drafts and tell me, Billiana, you need to add description, you need to add emotion. But one of the comments that really stuck to me was someone that said Billiana, your main character, Riley, she carries her patriotism like an armor. You can't figure out at all what she's thinking. Enough with the section pack. Put a little bit of emotion. I said, oh, the hick with emotion. Who cares? That was my first response. So I think I learned to express. To express myself a little better because Riley is based a lot on me. So. And a few of other.

[Podcast Host]

I was going to say, yeah. So I think it became clear Riley does have a striking resemblance to Billiana.

[Billiana Lilly]

Even people that see the COVID of the book said, deleanna, did you pose for this front cover? Like no, this is, this is completely like completely animation. This has nothing to do with me. She's just, you know, blond.

[Podcast Host]

I had the same thought, by the way. I had the same thought. I wondered if it was you on.

[Billiana Lilly]

The COVID It's not me on the COVID But there are a lot of strong women in our field that are very. Because they're very business oriented because they need to strong to show strength. They are not as emotional as you would expect a woman to be, but they are incredible leaders in the field and I, and I hope they see themselves in, specifically in this book. And those are Galina Antova, Katie Moore, Laura Servant, Fiona Hill. Those are the types of women that I deeply admire and respect and I, and I thought about as I was writing the book and some of them have characters in the book actually.

[Podcast Host]

So that's wonderful.

[Billiana Lilly]

They pick it up and see them.

[Podcast Host]

That's good. Well, so Riley, and let's talk about this main character because this main character does seem like you in a lot of ways. And the book opens in this absolutely insane situation that Riley finds herself in. And that's based on a true story, which is really hard to believe. Just tell us what. I mean, I don't want to ruin it for the readers, but tell us the true story of what happened and then the readers can get the book and, and be thrilled in the first opening pages. But the fact that it's a true story is pretty extraordinary.

[Billiana Lilly]

So Brenda, do you have to ask me so directly? Can't I have a little bit of mystery? So parts of that story are true, parts aren't. I have been chased by a Russian soldier and it was because I was at a Russian military expo, which I went to legally, although I had to call a few Russian colonels. I remember staying at the office until 2am so it's Moscow time in the morning. So I can call them in the morning and request a pass for certain Events. And they were very surprised because no one else has done that. And all of a sudden they hear this Russian speaking Bulgarian representing herself, calling from the United States, asking for a pass to a military expo. A lot of them were very sleepy. I could hear it in their voice. They were confused. They asked me to call again. I did. So finally I got access. So I walked through the biggest. The largest Russian military expo with a few other representatives of the United States. I always was accompanied by someone, but there were moments when I wasn't. And one of them was I was walking through this kiosk. It's almost like Black Hat Arsenal where you have the different. Different companies, booths everywhere. And it's similar, but with military. Only with. With military manufacturers in Russia. You have Almazante that. That basically builds the missile defense system. You have the. The jury over there too. Someone asked me if I wanted to go and teach at one of the. Their academies that, you know, teaches. Teaches the soldiers how to fire scanders. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, right. I'm going, right? Yep.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Billiana Lilly]

I had that. I spoke to a Russian robot. I asked it to sing me a song. It sang me a song, a lullaby in Russian. That was very cute. Military robot. And then on one of those kiosks, there was a massive display of photos of the different. All of Russia's top military leadership from the general staff, from the different Grufsb. And I don't think we really have those photos, but they're on display right there for a touchscreen. And I started looking for the touchscreen and taking photos, and a Russian soldier, uniformed Russian soldier, comes to me and basically turns me around, shakes me and turns me around. Who are you? And in Russian and shouts at me, but he's really tall, and I'm tall and I'm wearing high heels, so I'm tall too. But he's taller than me and he's looking down on me and shouting at me, who are you? And I'm like, I'm a visitor. I have a pass. When I show him the pass, I put him in his face. And he then gets a little confused and say, what are you doing? Still, like, angry, but a little confused. I'm like, like, I'm really, like, poised and calm. And I say, I'm here. I'm here. I'm authorized to be here. And taking photos of this display, which is on display in the public park part of the. Of the expo. And then he thought for a second, he said, you can't do that. And he grabbed my phone he literally took my phone away from my hands. And I. I'm. I was shocked. And I'm looking back at him, and I'm also, like, completely surprised by the situation. I'm surrounded by other Russian military, by other Russian soldiers in uniform. And I'm like, just in a split second, my defiance kicked in and said, no. And I grabbed it and pulled it back, and I ran. He ran after me, and he chased me for a while, and then I hid outside. There was an actual Russian military concert, and I hid. And then US General actually come to my aid, and we went back to the Russian soldier, and I basically told the general what I did, and I told him, I'm really afraid they're going to arrest me, that I've done something illegal. And he said, no, Billiana, you don't do anything illegal. We're going back. I'm like, well, how are you going back? I don't want to go back. You're going to arrest me. He's like, no, no, come with me. And. And we went back. I'm gonna keep his name private because I don't know. He. I haven't asked him for permission to share. To share his identity. But we went back, and he went to the soldier and said, I want to speak to your superior. And all of a sudden, his superior shows up, and they pull us in a room, in a back room, and we. The U.S. general, then the Russian superior and the Russian soldier and U.S. general says, Deliana, translate for me. And then I'm sitting there white as a. As a sheet, literally. I'm like, oh, my God, we're gonna get him. This is going to be an international disaster. And the general just put a few names and said, this is my colleague, and you have offended her. You can't touch her or grab her phone. And I know this and this person from your ministry, and I'm going to call them and complain at the moment I said the names, both soldiers on the other side just went, wow, like, white. And the other soldier who was scaring me got up, started kissing my hand and crying, and it was the most embarrassing experience. And we went outside, and I told the general who was with me, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to disrespect him. I hope he doesn't get fired. And U.S. general turned to me and said, billiana, he's not going to get fired. He's going to get a promotion because he made an American fear him even for. Damn those games. So that's the story. But then there's another story where I did get into a Russian military conference that I wasn't supposed to get into. But that's all I'm gonna say because I wanna keep that private. But that whole part about Riley going into a Russian military conference, that is 99% true.

[Podcast Host]

And you very clearly. Those two stories, you clearly put together into one here for the opening of the book. So it's very exciting. And I just, It's. You have lived quite the number of adventures in that part of the world.

[Billiana Lilly]

Thank you. Yes.

[Podcast Host]

So I would love to kind of take this framing and the topics that you've incorporated into digital mindhunters and then bring it back to our world. What's happening now and what you think we can see or what we will see in the next few years. Right. We just had an election in this country. Obviously, a number of countries around the world have had elections. The war in Ukraine is in the middle of escalation. Just this past week, Ukraine struck into Russia using U.S. missiles. And then actually just yesterday, Russia launched a brand new ballistic missile striking Ukraine. And of course, they had notified us ahead of that strike. But clearly escalatory actions in that part of the world. Meanwhile, what's happening in China is notable as well. Their economy still seems to be struggling significantly, but at the same time, more control in the last few weeks in Hong Kong. So from your perspective the next two years, what should we expect to see and what should our responses be as the United States.

[Billiana Lilly]

So first on Ukraine, I regret to say I think we're too late. We should have been a lot more aggressive and a lot faster with supporting Ukraine when it mattered. The war escalated. It started in 2014. We gave up Crimea. We let Ukraine deal with it. Then the Russians got emboldened, and in February 2022, they crossed the border finally with troops. And although there was a very concerted effort from the European Union, from the US we were supportive. And that's fantastic. We finally decoupled from Russia's, from our energy dependent or European energy dependent with Russia dependence with Russia. Fantastic. Finally. We've been talking about this for decades. Never did it finally, finally started moving in the right direction. But I think we should have been a lot more firm, A lot more, I wouldn't say aggressive, but definitely we should have sent more support to Ukraine earlier. The Ukrainians have been asking us for offensive capabilities for a long time and we have been very slow. And the future President Trump has several times he said that he's going to even end the war before he gets in office. Good luck with that. Let's see. But I think on that front, I think the deciders, those who are going to decide when the war ends, will be President Zelensky and President Putin. Those are the two negotiators, and we'll see what happens. I can't comment on what President Zelensky will be. I sympathize with his position right now. He's been repelling the Russians, a much more formidable adversary for years already. And right now, the attacks that we're seeing are just too late. So that's my position on that war. I guess we will see. I probably expect to see some sort of stalemate or a prolonged conflict over the past four years. But I also know our Ukrainian community, our Ukrainian colleagues, they're tired. They have been fighting a war for a long time. And it's hard to assess the morale, the level of morale across Ukraine, because we're not really getting the full information, the full picture from all the individuals that are literally fighting for their lives and for survival. So on that front, that's what I. Those will be my comments with regards to cyber operations. I would expect, because of President Trump's position on China, he's announced that he's going to create tariffs against Chinese goods up to, I believe, 60%. He's going to tax them that much because of the trade wars that already existed in the first Trump administration and now the second. I think we're likely to see more aggressive behavior from China and cyberspace because there's nothing to really deter them. And I would expect them to try to get back at us through these methods. And because there are a lot of. I wish I spoke Mandarin and I wish my knowledge of China was as deep as my knowledge of Russia, but I'm still a student there. I'm still learning. But from what I'm understanding is that the Chinese government has a clear position that they want to isolate and assimilate or reunify unify with Taiwan at some point. And that period may be coming close. Probably it will be in the period of the next 10, 15 years. And if that. In that case, we have seen China prepositioning malware in our military networks. We, we heard some great assessments on exactly why this is dangerous recently at the Data Tribe Summit that we both attended because of all of these behaviors that we're seeing and tactics on their part. I would expect Chinese cyber operations to increase against US Critical infrastructure, but also Chinese influence operations, because they've already. We have several examples during the fires in Maui for Example, I believe it was the fires where the Chinese said that, that they were caused by the US that created some sort of weather weapon. And then they were also trying to influence the election, but at more the congressional level this year. So they are involved in trying to influence us at different levels. And if we see, if we also examine how the Chinese government tried to interfere with the Taiwanese elections, the influence operations against that, how they have been, how they've been launching cyber attacks against Taiwanese financial institutions, I think these are all blueprints that they could also use against us. So I think in the next years, and so this is on China, Russia, I tend to think if President Putin gets what he wants and we have certain end of the war in Ukraine, then perhaps cyber operations against the United States aren't going to be as prevalent from Russia. But I don't bet on that because then the Russian government will still have perhaps some of its resources free to continue to target us. So I don't really know what exactly President Putin will decide there, because ransomware Fed actors could say, okay, like let's go back to target United States hospitals again, try to siphon money from there, but maybe there will be some sort of deal with the US because of our leadership, and maybe they will reach some agreement that will result in a reduced number of cyber operations or reduced volume of cyber operations against the US But I'm not willing to bet on that. I think what we have seen in Europe lately suggests to me that the Russians and the Chinese will continue to try to influence us through influence operations, specifically disinformation, and through sponsoring influencers or politicians, because that has proven to be a successful tactic in other places. And we already had indications that that's been happening in the US Already.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, well, bringing it to your writing then. I mean, what is the next book? I mean, is the next one centered around China and their entry into influence operations? It does seem a little new for China. I mean, this is something that Russia, all the way back into the USSR was well known to do. Not a normal activity for China outside of China itself, of course, Internal to China, very focused on the psychological operations, but external to China, a little less so. But to your point, we see them starting to increase that op tempo, increase the maturity of those operations. Is that potentially the subject of the next book? I mean, where's your head in that respect, Brandon?

[Billiana Lilly]

Can I enjoy my moment of freedom.

[Podcast Host]

And glory here before I get. We need more. We need more. What does Riley do next?

[Billiana Lilly]

That's a great question. I thought I have A few ideas. So one is Israel, Palestine. I think that conflict is terrible and it's biblical. It's biblical, but also it is so the killing of civilians is terrible, it's indiscriminatory, it's affecting other nations in the region. But I've never really touched on that topic. I've obviously learned about Israel and Palestine for years when I was in Geneva. This was a topic that was always discussed and the close relationship between Israel and the United States as well now. So that conflict for me is we should reach a stalemate there, we should reach an agreement, we should figure out a solution that doesn't involve killing of children and civilians. That should stop. But I don't know what angle I would take there. The other option is of course China. And I think that's probably more likely as you pointed out, because I already have Chinese reductors and a spy spoiler alert in the book and I know more about the Chinese than I know about Israelis. And if I write something, I want to write it from experience and actually wanted to visit Palestine earlier this year, but I don't think that's going to happen for a while.

[Podcast Host]

Not right now.

[Billiana Lilly]

Not right now. But I want to visit Taiwan, I think while there's still chance to do it. And I think something I really want to highlight is and I allude to it in this book, but I don't think I do it. I emphasize on it enough how that the years of preparation and the meticulous focus on a campaign that the Russians and the Chinese both have usually in the US we think in four year terms because then the administration is likely to change and when there will be new policies and all that. But our adversaries or specifically dictatorial regimes, when you look at for how long their leaders have been in power, it's decades. It's not four years. They have long term goals and they outlast our administration. So spies or individuals that have been positioned in certain levels of our government or private sector, they stay there for decades. And I know it's similar on the US side, but it's more they are administrations that affect decisions and policies in Russia, on the side of the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians. It's a more long term strategy and I want to show how those long term strategies take fruit and how hard it is to identify them and eradicate them because of how for how long they have been designed and how well they've been integrated in our system. So insider threat, for example, that's a big deal to me. And I think and to a lot of individuals and a lot of companies and we have many cases with some of our largest and most powerful and influential technology companies. You have those individuals literally working in those companies. So maybe I'll do something with that. I haven't decided yet, but it will still be action packed. Maybe there will be more than one villain. Maybe I'll bring Israel and Palestine and China into the mix.

[Podcast Host]

Fantastic. Well, I have thoughts. So we'll talk offline. I don't want to.

[Billiana Lilly]

I'd love to hear them.

[Podcast Host]

I'll share. I think there's some, the long view, there's some very cool things that you can do thinking about how that long view of affects the course of history. And I like the dichotomy between our, in the western world, relatively short view with the long view of those other cultures. Well, so I want to finish here with the last sentence in the introduction which is in a world where lies are a weapon and trust is a luxury, Riley must navigate the treacherous worlds of arms dealers, hackers and spies to protect her country. And to me, that last line, protect her country. You know, navigating this dark world, protect her country is something that you also seem very focused on doing. So you know, thank you for bringing this book to the community. The book is Digital Mindhunters. Your goal is to protect your country and we really appreciate it. So again, thank you for sharing it with us.

[Billiana Lilly]

Billiona, thank you so much.

[Podcast Host]

And, and that's Dr. Billiana Lily. The book is Digital Mind Hunters. We will of course have a link in the show notes. It will make a great Christmas gift. So think about that for your families. We'll have you back on soon. Billiona.

[Billiana Lilly]

Thank you, Brandon.

[Brandon Karpf]

Our thanks to Dr. Billiana Lilly for joining us. She is cyber security advisor and, and author. The book is titled Digital Mindhunters. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you back here next time. Hey, everybody, Dave here. I want to talk about our sponsor, LegalZoom. You know, I started my first business back in the early 90s and oh, what I would have done to have been able to have the services of an organization like LegalZoom back then. Just getting all of those business ducks in a row, all of that technical stuff, the legal stuff, the registrations of the business, the taxes, all of those things that you need to go through when you're starting a business. The hard stuff, the stuff that sucks up your time when you just want to get that business launched and out there. Well, LegalZoom has everything you need to launch, run and protect your business all in one place and they save you from wasting hours making sense of all that legal stuff. Launch, run and protect your business. To make it Official today at LegalZoom, you can use promo code CYBERTEN to get 10% off any LegalZoom business information product, excluding subscriptions and renewals, that expires at the end of this year. Get everything you need from setup to [e-mail] and use promo code CYBERTEN. That's legalzoom.com and promo code CYBER10. Legalzoom provides access to independent attorneys and self service tools. Legalzoom is not a law firm and does not provide legal advice except where authorized through its subsidiary law firm LZ Legal Services llc.