Keith Millarsky (2:20)

Yes.

Dave Buettner (2:20)

Okay.

Keith Millarsky (2:21)

The only heat coming is the question. All right.

Dave Buettner (2:23)

All right, I'm ready. All right, so this shouldn't be any problem at all.

Keith Millarsky (2:27)

Oh, my gosh. Look.

Dave Buettner (2:29)

Delicious. All right.

Keith Millarsky (2:30)

That's pretty good.

Dave Buettner (2:31)

It's quite tasty.

Announcer (2:34)

No sauce. Scoville zero.

Keith Millarsky (2:37)

So let's take a trip down memory lane. What was the first password you ever used? Was it something super basic like password 1, 2, 3, or did you come up with something a little more creative? How have your password habits changed and evolved since? And be honest, do you still use the same password?

Selena Larson (2:58)

It might take you longer to remember this.

Dave Buettner (3:00)

Go ahead. Yeah, this was longer ago.

Selena Larson (3:02)

Yeah. You have more time to think.

Dave Buettner (3:04)

Go for it.

Selena Larson (3:05)

My first password, I think, was probably, like, my last name. I was very young on the Internet. Coming up, using AOL Instant messenger and logging on to our little home computer. I honestly can't even remember really what it was, but it was probably something like that. But a better fun fact is my First AIM screen name, which was P I, T A and then my name, which stood for pain in the.

Dave Buettner (3:31)

Posterior.

Selena Larson (3:31)

Posterior. Yes. So that's. So I still remember that very clearly. Not my password though. But yes, definitely my password uses have changed. Do not use the same password as then or anywhere.

Keith Millarsky (3:43)

And not that you admit it here in front of all the listeners, not.

Selena Larson (3:46)

In front of all of the audience, that's for sure. But of course, no, it's gotten a lot better. Password managers, multi factor authentication, definitely not using that. When I was little, teeny bopper on my big bubble back.

Dave Buettner (4:02)

Well, I mean, I started with a TRS 80 back in about 1980.

Keith Millarsky (4:06)

Did they even have passwords then?

Dave Buettner (4:08)

Well, not. No, the computers didn't.

Keith Millarsky (4:10)

Yes.

Dave Buettner (4:11)

I mean, you turn, you press the button and the computer came on. There was no booting, there was no, you know, but we had dial up modems, 300 baud dial up modems and we dialed into bulletin board systems. I don't know if you ever did any of that.

Keith Millarsky (4:22)

Yeah, I did. Yeah.

Selena Larson (4:23)

Bbs, bbs.

Dave Buettner (4:25)

So I wanted it one user at a time, you know, so it was great. It was fun. My first, I remember my first username was the highly original and clever Ziggy Stardust.

Keith Millarsky (4:37)

Ah, yes.

Selena Larson (4:38)

That was you.

Dave Buettner (4:39)

No, this was me. But I don't remember my password. I don't remember what. My original password, it was probably something like appropriate for a 11 or 12 year old boy was probably something like, you know, Bowie 69, 69 dudes. But I do not still use that.

Keith Millarsky (5:02)

Mine I remember vividly. So I remember going to the library and opening my first hotmail account. So this is before I had my first Internet computer at home. And in my first password I was a big Beatle fan. Still am. But it was 28 if, which was on the license plate on the Abbey Road. It was, it was. So I had a combination of both letters and numbers in that.

Selena Larson (5:27)

So that was a deep cut.

Keith Millarsky (5:28)

Yes, that was clever.

Announcer (5:34)

Sauce. Number one hacked and hot. Scoville1200.

Dave Buettner (5:40)

All right, here we go. Oh, this is good.

Keith Millarsky (5:46)

Okay.

Dave Buettner (5:47)

Mm.

Keith Millarsky (5:49)

Okay, that's not. I can feel something coming.

Dave Buettner (5:52)

It's building. For sure. There's more coming, but manageable. This is something I would expect in a, like an authentic restaurant, you know, like where they, they warn you that this is not actually for the Americans.

Keith Millarsky (6:09)

It's a little.

Dave Buettner (6:11)

That's hotter than I expected.

Keith Millarsky (6:13)

The heat is coming out.

Selena Larson (6:14)

The aftertaste, it really packs an after punch.

Dave Buettner (6:17)

And I'm worried because that was, that.

Keith Millarsky (6:19)

Was number one yeah. As a cybersecurity expert, what is your personal tech routine? Like, when you wake up in the morning, do you go straight to checking if you've been hacked or do you start with a fresh cup of coffee? Is there any kind of ritual you have to make to make sure your digital life stays secure?

Selena Larson (6:37)

That's a good question. I have an unhealthy addiction to my smartphone and my computer. So I immediately look at my phone as soon as I wake up, my alarm clock and I look at it. But this is actually an interesting question because I feel like it's fundamentally about threat modeling. Right. And we're thinking about, how do you use technology? How do we use technology? Are we always checking to see, you know, like, what is our risk level? And for us, I mean, I don't know how you feel, Dave, but I feel sort of. I'm very public. I'm out there.

Dave Buettner (7:09)

No, I'm out there.

Selena Larson (7:10)

I am imminently findable on the Internet. And so I do kind of. I think that I am a little bit more cautious about some of the stuff that I would post of like, oh, where am I? Or what am I doing? And, you know, making sure that I do have all those things under control. But more importantly, I also talk to people who know me, who are my friends and family, and make sure that they are also very secure. Because for public people, it can, you know, kind of be a little bit of a supply chain. I guess your best, you know, gets.

Keith Millarsky (7:42)

To you some collateral damage, so to speak.

Selena Larson (7:44)

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Dave Buettner (7:46)

But, yeah, same thing. My phone is what wakes me up in the morning. So I'm on an iPhone. So the first thing it does is tell me everything, you know. Hey, good morning. And I have my nickname in my phone is yous Majesty. So it says, Good morning, you, Majesty. Here's the weather and here's what it's going to be. Right.

Keith Millarsky (8:05)

I follow the very similar routine that you guys do as well. The one thing I do do is always checking my bank account in my credit cards for, you know, because it's not necessarily that they're gonna hack my passwords that are gonna, you know, and come into my accounts, but they may hack somebody whereby credit card or something has been. So I'm always looking for those fraudulent charges, especially when I'm traveling overseas. Cause you never know, you know, whether there's a skimmer there or something like that. So I'm very hypervigilant on that.

Selena Larson (8:37)

So, yeah, that's a great point, actually.

Keith Millarsky (8:39)

And then also using, you know, two Factor authentication. So even if they would get one of our passw, just, you know, you don't have to worry. It's. It's going to be much more difficult to get in.

Announcer (8:52)

Sauce number two. Threat levels. Scoville. 26,500.

Selena Larson (8:58)

Let's do it.

Keith Millarsky (8:58)

Let's give it a shot down.

Dave Buettner (9:00)

One, two, three.

Selena Larson (9:03)

Mm.

Keith Millarsky (9:04)

Mm. Good taste. Mm.

Selena Larson (9:07)

10 out of 10. Fat level. Delicious.

Keith Millarsky (9:10)

Yeah. Two thumbs up. I think that was the best tasting one so far on that.

Dave Buettner (9:16)

I am sweating a little.

Selena Larson (9:17)

You are a little. Yes.

Dave Buettner (9:19)

Thanks.

Keith Millarsky (9:22)

All right, so as a cybersecurity pro, you're clearly about protecting yourself from malware, but have you ever had a moment where malware almost got you maybe an email attachment or a shady website that you almost clicked on? And how close did you come to a digital disaster?

Dave Buettner (9:39)

Mm. I got. Got.

Keith Millarsky (9:41)

Yeah.

Dave Buettner (9:42)

Yeah, I think we all have. Yeah. So for me, it was the classic I got a text message from a good friend that said, hey, Dave, did you see this video that was posted of you?

Selena Larson (9:55)

Oh, no.

Dave Buettner (9:56)

That's all it said.

Keith Millarsky (9:57)

Yep.

Dave Buettner (9:58)

And I was like, no, I gotta.

Keith Millarsky (10:00)

See what this is.

Dave Buettner (10:01)

Right? I gotta see what this is. So I click through, and it's like. Takes me to, like, a Facebook login page, and I logged in. Yeah, that was it. That was the ball game.

Keith Millarsky (10:12)

And so you got your Facebook hacked? I did, yeah.

Dave Buettner (10:14)

I got it back. This is probably. This may have been 10 years ago, so I was a lot less vigilant back then. But at the same time, you know, I just. I fell for it hook, line, and sinker. They got me, got my ego, my curiosity, my fear of what could the. What. What video could this be?

Keith Millarsky (10:32)

Yeah.

Dave Buettner (10:32)

And also because it came from a trusted source, so it was my friend who got hacked. And then they were spamming everybody on their mess, on their, you know, directory, their list of friends.

Keith Millarsky (10:44)

Yeah, that was one of the big techniques to do that. So. Because now you think it's safe, it's coming. That's like, my sister will send me stuff. I will never click on a link that she sends me anything. And I'll call her up, I'll be like, hey, did you just send me something? But I want to. I'm not clicking on anything until you tell me it's safe.

Dave Buettner (10:59)

Yeah.

Selena Larson (11:00)

Yeah. That's a good trick, though. But did anything happen?

Dave Buettner (11:03)

No. I mean, I realized it quickly enough that I was able to salvage it, and so I didn't actually end up losing anything. I did feel pretty stupid, though.

Selena Larson (11:12)

Well, so I think it's really important because to your point, everyone has something that they could fall for. And, you know, we, as cybersecurity practitioners have experienced something, you know, that might be bad or whatever. But I think the most important thing that people need to do is not feel stupid.

Keith Millarsky (11:26)

Yes.

Selena Larson (11:27)

Because that is, you know, part of the hack is making you feel stupid. They prey on your brain. They, like, are going after you emotionally. They're trying to hack your feelings. And you're, you know, like, you were saying, it played to your ego and your interests, and you're like, I want to see this video of me. And so I think that that's so important because that is. It's. They tailor it to make you feel bad. My almost getting got. I don't think I, as far as I know, have never, like, fully been hacked. But scammers will oftentimes register phone numbers. It's like one letter or one number off of a real phone number. And so I was trying to book a flight, and I was calling the airline, and I called the airline, but I mistyped the number. And so I was, like, one number off. I wasn't even clicking on it or wasn't like a, you know, an attack that says, call this number to dispute it or whatever. I literally just mistyped it, and then I call and whatever. And it went through the whole, like, answering machine. And, like, this is the airlines, and, you know, put in your information, put in your date of birth, put in your. All of this stuff. And then there was one thing that they had asked for that I was like, okay, this is weird, but they. But, yeah, but I. And then I just started putting in fake information. I was like, I want to see where this is going.

Keith Millarsky (12:36)

You're not getting this.

Selena Larson (12:37)

Yeah, but then it said. It was like, put in your passport information, put in your credit card information. And so they put in all of the things that are, like, numbers that you can sort of, like, type in to get information. And it was all, like, automated. I was like, wow, this is actually pretty good. Like, it could have got. Could have got me.

Keith Millarsky (12:50)

When I was working undercover, my job on the forum was to review any new malware packages that came out. And they really thought that somebody on my site was a fed. So five people.

Dave Buettner (13:01)

And they were right.

Keith Millarsky (13:01)

They were right. They were right. And so what they did was at that time, there was, like, the control panel for the malware, and they backdoored it. So when it came in to get reviewed, even though we took it off on, like, a, you know, like a. Not on a production network, you know, on like a research network. And it was backstopped and everything like that. As soon as we executed the file, everything that was on the flash drive, which the analyst had some other things on the flash drive that were like templates of the NCFTA where I was stationed. And it went right back to the bad guys.

Dave Buettner (13:40)

Ooh.

Keith Millarsky (13:41)

So, yeah, so there was like a little bit of a melancholy moment there where, you know, now all of a sudden they knew somebody worked at the ncfta. So we, at that time we had it backstopped to a company and all that. And then we heard a story that they were gonna do this expose that one of the admins worked at the ncfta. And you know, and I thought I was toast. But then what we ended up doing, we made some phone calls and we scrubbed the DNS, we scrubbed the who is. So when they did their expose, none of that stuff existed anymore. And then they were just like NCFTA template reports. And like the other hackers were like, this is all made up because nobody would have these documents there with hypos in it and things like that because they were just templates and all that. So I was able to actually skate by. But that was probably the worst act because that was my undercover identity. But we were able to make it through it.

Selena Larson (14:41)

So patched it up and is that something that's commonly done in these forums is they'll sort of seed backdoor?

Keith Millarsky (14:49)

Oh yeah, yeah. Because that's the other, you know, they're always worried about, you know, are there feds or cops there on, on the form. So they're always trying to dox people. And so I wouldn't trust anything like a credit card checker or anything like I would always make sure you're open. You know, any undercover guys out there, make sure you're opening up researchers. Yeah, or researchers make sure you're opening it up in, you know, in a VM and a totally non attributable network because they're, they're going to backdoor it for sure.

Announcer (15:23)

We'll be right back.

Dave Bittner (15:29)

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Announcer (16:44)

Sauce number three Scorchware Scoville units 131,000.

Dave Buettner (16:51)

All right. Oh, there it is.

Keith Millarsky (16:57)

Yeah, a little bit there.

Dave Buettner (16:58)

Starting.

Keith Millarsky (16:59)

So given your line of work, how often do you take a break from all things cyber? Now it's hitting me. Yes, yes. Do you ever go on a digital detox or is it just impossible to turn off with so much going on in the cybersecurity world? And what is your strategy for really finding balance between staying on top of threats and taking a breather from your screens?

Selena Larson (17:23)

Yeah, so I would say any person who works in this industry who says they know everything about everything is lying to you.

Keith Millarsky (17:30)

You know, I'm something of a scientist.

Selena Larson (17:32)

Myself who can rhapsodize on things and, you know, can talk about everything and anything from fraud to bot nuts to apt malware to nation state politics to all these things that's impossible. Like one single person cannot stay on top of everything in cybersecurity. And for me, I have to be very mindful about the things that I can control and I know impact me in my job and the things that are interesting to me. But I know that I don't feel responsibility to be aware of what's happening because other people know way more about this than I do. And so for me, I really want to make sure that I'm staying on top of the stuff that I need to know about and then listen to podcasts like the Cyber Wire for the stuff that I could. It's interesting to me, but maybe not necessarily impacting my work, but from a digital detox perspective, I do think it's very. Cause burnout in cybersecurity is so real, it's so prevalent. And I think that we are all under a lot of pressure, whether you work DFIR or IT help desk or, you know, threat research. So malware reversing, taking stuff from the dark web and downloading it. And so I do try and kind of go off a little, you know, less. Less crazy on my phone and stuff, but. But I read a lot of physical books. I love physical books because I do need a brain break and I get my nails done a lot and that takes a while. So I put my phone away, my computer away, And I don't like. That's my. That's my self care of trying to figure out ways of not being around a screen.

Keith Millarsky (19:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Bittner (19:07)

My scalp is sweating.

Keith Millarsky (19:08)

Yes. I was gonna say, well, my nose is running.

Dave Buettner (19:14)

Okay. So the question was detox.

Keith Millarsky (19:17)

Yes.

Dave Buettner (19:17)

Okay.

Selena Larson (19:18)

Which you're gonna need after this.

Dave Buettner (19:19)

Yes, yes, absolutely. So, you know, we joke around at the office sometimes that, like, my job is, hi, I'm Dave Buettner, and here's today's bad news, you know, and that can get to you after a while. And so my job, I'm spending a good part of my day hunting down the bad news and trying to decide, you know, trying to rank them. Like, what are the. Because we do about 10 stories a day on each Cyberwire podcast. So what are the most important 10 stories that are going to benefit our audience the most to know about? So you have to do that. But I think, to your point, it's a really good one, that I cannot be an expert on most of this stuff. And so I rely on people like you, you know, I know, who have specialties. So I may not know the answer to something, but I know who does. And so building those relationships and being able to call somebody up and ask them, what does this mean? You know, I've done that with. Actually, I've done that with both of you.

Keith Millarsky (20:22)

Yeah. So how do you decompress?

Dave Buettner (20:26)

I don't listen to David Bowie when I'm starting to feel it, that I need some time off. I need to respect that. And even just sometimes taking a single day to do nothing, to go to a state park and hike or stay away, like you were saying, put the phone down and just try to breathe and change my space and my mindset and all that kind of stuff.

Keith Millarsky (20:53)

And I think, like, you were mentioning in our industry, especially, like, doing, you know, dfir, you know, it's just pressure. And, you know, one of the things I always told, you know, my agents working for me, the people that work for me at ey, was that you. You can't. You could run a marathon or you could run a sprint, but you can't sprint a marathon. And it's really important to. To really kind of pace yourself, because otherwise you'll burn out very quick. And it's also like when, like, if you're lifting weights, if you lift weights every day, you don't make gains. You need time to let those muscles grow. And it's a lot like that in our industry. I think that we just put a lot of pressure on ourselves because everything is a five alarm fire, you know, not just these wings, you know, so, you know, so it's really important for that. So some of the things that I try to do is one is I don't bring a phone or a tablet in my bedroom. So it's like, so this way, I go up there and I sleep and I don't have a TV in there, so it's just total decompression. And when I go on vacations, I like to go on cruises because you turn your phone off. Because the WI FI on a cruise is just crazy expensive.

Dave Buettner (22:04)

Yeah, My glasses are steaming up.

Selena Larson (22:06)

Well, before we do this next one, I'm. I have to put my hair up. It's getting hot. Oh, it's time.

Dave Buettner (22:11)

Oh, is it? Oh, I see.

Selena Larson (22:13)

It's time. You know, I.

Dave Buettner (22:14)

Very good.

Selena Larson (22:14)

Very good. It's an extra layer that I don't need.

Announcer (22:20)

Sauce number four. Only moruga in the building. Scoville one million.

Dave Buettner (22:25)

Oh, only moruga. What is that?

Selena Larson (22:28)

It's a pepper. It's a very, very spicy pepper. Is it the scorpion pepper? Is that a separate one? I don't know if it's the moruga or the scorpion pepper.

Dave Buettner (22:36)

Okay.

Selena Larson (22:37)

It's a very spicy pepper.

Keith Millarsky (22:38)

I've never had a moruga pepper. And so this will be interesting.

Dave Buettner (22:43)

Oh, we have to put extra on it.

Selena Larson (22:44)

Yeah, just a little dab.

Dave Buettner (22:45)

Oh, my gosh.

Selena Larson (22:46)

Well, that was a lot, so you probably don't have to do that much, but accidentally overboard.

Keith Millarsky (22:50)

I'm gonna dab off. No.

Selena Larson (22:52)

Yeah, you can dab off my dab.

Keith Millarsky (22:54)

Oh, look at that.

Dave Buettner (22:55)

All right.

Keith Millarsky (22:55)

Okay.

Dave Buettner (22:56)

All right.

Keith Millarsky (22:56)

Okay, wait.

Selena Larson (22:58)

Only Maruga in the building.

Keith Millarsky (23:00)

Boom. All right, all right. Okay.

Dave Buettner (23:03)

Down the hedge.

Selena Larson (23:04)

Cheers.

Keith Millarsky (23:04)

Cheers up there. Cheers. Cheers. All right, reach.

Dave Buettner (23:07)

Two, one.

Keith Millarsky (23:14)

Very good taste.

Dave Buettner (23:15)

Yeah, that's good.

Keith Millarsky (23:18)

I'm waiting for it to hit.

Dave Buettner (23:19)

Okay. Yeah.

Keith Millarsky (23:22)

Okay, it's done. It's coming.

Dave Buettner (23:24)

Yeah, I can tell it's building. It's just a question of how much.

Keith Millarsky (23:28)

And how long it tastes.

Dave Buettner (23:31)

Oh, there it is.

Keith Millarsky (23:31)

There it is.

Selena Larson (23:33)

Oh, this one? Yeah, this one took the longest.

Keith Millarsky (23:35)

Yeah, it's a little. And now that it's there, it's staying.

Dave Buettner (23:40)

Okay. Why could we not have done the thing where they bake cupcakes now?

Keith Millarsky (23:46)

Now it's. Oh, my God. The taste is good, but it's hot. It is.

Dave Buettner (23:53)

Okay, it's hot. Do we have a couple more feeling?

Selena Larson (23:58)

I'm breathing fire.

Dave Buettner (23:59)

Do we have a couple more nuggets? Because I'm not quite done, Mr. Polar.

Keith Millarsky (24:04)

Okay.

Announcer (24:08)

Oh, no, not the FBI hat.

Keith Millarsky (24:13)

Oh, no.

Dave Buettner (24:14)

The tables are turned, and I'll be asking the questions now. Oh, right, Mr. Interrogator.

Keith Millarsky (24:20)

All right. Oh, look at this. You're representing.

Dave Buettner (24:26)

Yes.

Keith Millarsky (24:26)

All right.

Dave Buettner (24:27)

In my previous career, I actually did.

Keith Millarsky (24:29)

Some work with the FBI. I did not want to do that.

Selena Larson (24:33)

May I have another napkin?

Dave Buettner (24:35)

Did you touch your eyes?

Keith Millarsky (24:36)

Maybe.

Dave Buettner (24:37)

Oh, my God, my eyes are watering.

Keith Millarsky (24:39)

Okay. It's good.

Dave Buettner (24:41)

I'm so glad we're not doing 10 of these.

Keith Millarsky (24:43)

Yeah. Oh, thank you.

Dave Buettner (24:44)

I am gonna sweat through this hat.

Keith Millarsky (24:46)

All right, all right.

Dave Buettner (24:48)

So, Keith.

Keith Millarsky (24:50)

Yes.

Selena Larson (24:51)

Wait, do we need another nuggets?

Keith Millarsky (24:52)

Yes.

Selena Larson (24:53)

Shall I get.

Dave Buettner (24:53)

But I'm trying to move this along.

Keith Millarsky (24:58)

Drink, drink, drink. All right, I'm ready, Dave.

Dave Buettner (25:02)

All right, we're gonna do one more round.

Keith Millarsky (25:04)

Okay.

Dave Buettner (25:05)

With the really hot stuff of the gorilla.

Selena Larson (25:08)

The lord of the hot stuff. Yes. Wow.

Dave Buettner (25:10)

You can't go back.

Selena Larson (25:11)

I love it. I love it. No, this is great. This is. What?

Keith Millarsky (25:13)

This is awful.

Dave Buettner (25:15)

All right. Oh, good God. All right.

Selena Larson (25:20)

I'm ready. I'm ready. I'll do a little more.

Dave Buettner (25:22)

This hurts so bad.

Selena Larson (25:24)

Get it all there.

Keith Millarsky (25:26)

Yeah. And not like a John Cougar song where it hurt so good.

Dave Buettner (25:29)

No, no, no.

Selena Larson (25:29)

This is.

Dave Buettner (25:30)

This is unpleasant. This is really unpleasant.

Keith Millarsky (25:32)

Okay.

Dave Buettner (25:32)

Hey, Dave, why don't you be a podcaster? That'd be fun. Oh, yeah. We'll make funny videos and we'll have a good time. That sounds like a great career.

Selena Larson (25:40)

All right, so it's flashing before your eyes.

Dave Buettner (25:42)

I know. Well, lots of things are.

Keith Millarsky (25:43)

All right.

Dave Buettner (25:45)

Three, two, one. Cheers.

Keith Millarsky (25:47)

Cheers.

Dave Buettner (25:48)

Okay, Doom.

Keith Millarsky (25:52)

G, man.

Dave Buettner (25:55)

In your career with the FBI, all your years of hunting down bad guys, what was the craziest thing you ever saw? What was the wildest thing that made you step back and go, is this. Could this possibly be real? With these numbskulls that I'm chasing around the world? Okay, I'm taking this hat off because.

Keith Millarsky (26:20)

Oh, I'm gonna eat this first one.

Dave Buettner (26:22)

Okay.

Selena Larson (26:25)

There's one extra. There's one left.

Keith Millarsky (26:26)

Doll things.

Dave Buettner (26:28)

I know. There were some crazy personalities. Wasn't there a guy with the cats? There were guys with cats, like exotic cats, right?

Keith Millarsky (26:36)

Yeah. So that was Bogachev, the Game Over Zeus.

Selena Larson (26:39)

Oh, yeah.

Keith Millarsky (26:40)

So he was very unique in that he had these exotic cats.

Selena Larson (26:46)

Was it like a lynx or like.

Keith Millarsky (26:47)

A. Yeah, yeah, it was like. Yeah, yeah, like a lynx or like a bobcat.

Selena Larson (26:52)

Bobcat, bobcat.

Keith Millarsky (26:53)

There we go. Something like that. You know, he had. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. So I'm going slow in this, Dave. Yeah.

Dave Buettner (27:04)

Well, how's your brain?

Keith Millarsky (27:05)

Yeah, it's going good. My eyes have stopped watering so. Bit. Yeah, I mean, I guess, like, the funniest things is that their wives and girlfriends always never met a camera that they didn't, like.

Dave Buettner (27:24)

Panic me.

Keith Millarsky (27:26)

So we had a thing like, you know, you've heard in, like, the intelligence community, you heard of, like, umit, which is like human intelligence, or sigint. And so we had a thing which we called Wagon, for Wives and girlfriends intelligence. So, you know, just seeing what they would be posting all the time and, you know, just going. And you just saw crazy stuff, a lot of stuff not safe for work. So you could just kind of imagine some of those things. But, you know, they would post where they were, which was always great for us because then you knew what they were doing. So. Yeah, so that. That's the best I can come with the clarity of my head right now. So how are you?

Selena Larson (28:07)

I'm good. This is great. This is great for me.

Keith Millarsky (28:09)

Yeah, I'm doing better now. Much better now.

Dave Buettner (28:12)

I'm dying here, guys.

Keith Millarsky (28:13)

But the fact that you doubled down and we went for two. So we're gonna talk. Our first computers. What was the first one you own that you use that sparked your love for tech? Was it a bulky desktop from the 90s or something else entirely? And then was there a specific moment when you thought, okay, this is. I'm hooked on tech.

Selena Larson (28:32)

So I will answer.

Dave Buettner (28:34)

Go ahead.

Selena Larson (28:37)

Another thing about me, I didn't like technology when I was growing up. I didn't like it all. Millennials had our MySpace and AIM and everything. And I did the marquee scroll so stuff could go across my MySpace page. And I was like, I'm a hacker, but I didn't really like technology. And I was kind of whatever about it. And I really wanted to be. I was a journalist, so I really wanted to be a journalist. I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be a person that does words and not numbers. And then I went to San Francisco and I was doing a job interview in San Francisco, and they're like, well, it was for technology reporter jobs. And it was like, well, what do you know about or what do you know about technology? And I'm like, nothing. But, you know what I do know about the news, and in San Francisco, technology is the news. The news.

Keith Millarsky (29:24)

Yeah.

Selena Larson (29:24)

And so I very quickly became. Got caught up to speed. And then I was like, wow, I love it. And then I really like cybersecurity and privacy. And so I was like, I'm very. I'm Almost entirely self taught. I haven't really. I've done some trainings, but not a ton.

Keith Millarsky (29:36)

Yeah.

Selena Larson (29:37)

But I. But now I love it. But now I love it. But my first computer was the like Bubble Mac.

Keith Millarsky (29:42)

Okay.

Selena Larson (29:43)

I think it was a teal, like the teal Bubble Mac. I had to share it with my siblings. Yeah, yeah. We had designated like, you know, times and things you could do. And I think I just missed that. You can't use the phone and the computer at the same time.

Keith Millarsky (29:59)

Yeah.

Selena Larson (29:59)

So my sister had that, but then I had the. Oh, we have two now. What about you, Dave?

Keith Millarsky (30:07)

I'm sorry.

Dave Buettner (30:12)

I didn't hear a single word. By the way, the first time I laid hands on computers was I went to like a. They had like a special summer camp, summer school kind of thing and they had TRS 80 model ones which are like some of the original 8bit computers. So that's where I learned how to like program basic. And I loved it. I loved it so much. So then I saved up money because I had a paper route and I bought a TRS 80 color computer I could hook up to a cheap TV and I had a cassette recorder and all that original stuff.

Keith Millarsky (30:44)

And.

Dave Buettner (30:45)

And you know, the thing is when you're 11 or 12, like you don't have any money, but the thing you have is time.

Keith Millarsky (30:51)

Yeah.

Dave Buettner (30:52)

So, yeah, I would spend all summer long, just like all night, you know, whatever. And I programmed all my own stuff and eventually got a modem. And that opened up a whole nother world of phone freaking.

Selena Larson (31:03)

And you were a freaker.

Dave Buettner (31:05)

I was, yeah.

Keith Millarsky (31:07)

Love it. I did not. Yeah, I did not. I got into it a little bit later when I got into college. So, you know, they had these Apple computers, you know, at college. So you kind of got into that and just started out with. I wanted something easier than a typewriter to type my stuff. And then it kind of went from there. And then one of my roommates would always play on a computer. You know, you'd play like Leisure Suit Larry or you know, things like that, you know, so just kind of going in from the games. And then finally when Windows 95 came out with the Start Me up campaign, that's kind of when I got that first Internet computer, which was a gateway computer back in those days. And I think, I can't even remember. The hard drive was probably like 2 gigabytes, maybe 3 gigabytes, something like that. And you had that very fast 28 bit modem dial up, which was crazy. And then when I was at the FBI. I did more like offensive stuff, so. Because I worked counterintelligence and espionage my first seven years, and then I was like, well, this Internet thing, I don't think is going to be a fad. You know, I think it's not going to go away. So I transferred over to Cyber Division, and then I had a really great. I was like you. I wasn't formally trained, but I had a great agent. His name was Tom Grasso, and he was kind of like my Yoda, you know, that he just could take time and would show me how to do everything. And, you know, from that, it just kind of took off, so.

Dave Buettner (32:33)

Oh, that's good.

Keith Millarsky (32:34)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was, you know, pre. Like, big Internet, where everything is just accessible at any time. And so you're just kind of curious as, like, you know, what is going on over in East Germany? What is going on in just, you know, even in the uk, it's just a lot different. For sure.

Dave Buettner (32:51)

Yeah.

Keith Millarsky (32:51)

Well. All right, Dave Selena. We just took on the wings of death, and now there's nothing left here. Nothing to do right now but to just roll out the red carpet for this camera, this camera, and this camera.

Dave Buettner (33:06)

Yeah, I'm good.

Keith Millarsky (33:09)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Selena Larson (33:10)

And I also, I would invite all of our listeners. Yes, please, first of all, try some hot sauce. It'll make your brain rattle, and you'll be very happy and tell some fun stories with your friends. But more importantly, tune in wherever you get your podcast. To only Maurer in the building. N2K network, CyberWire. The great cast and crew here, actually, in the building. Only crew in the building.

Keith Millarsky (33:37)

Yeah.

Selena Larson (33:37)

Very exciting.

Keith Millarsky (33:38)

And we've survived.

Selena Larson (33:39)

And we survived. We survived. We thrived. Tune in to Only Mauer in the building.

Dave Buettner (33:43)

Day's not over yet. Day's not over yet. All right. He did.

Keith Millarsky (33:49)

That was a blast, guys.

Dave Buettner (34:10)

Thank you.

Dave Bittner (34:10)

To ThreatLocker, the powerful zero trust enterprise solution that stops ransomware in its tracks. For sponsoring only malware in the building, visit threatlocker. Com.