A (3:13)

Wow. Yeah, there's a loaded question.

B (3:17)

I wouldn't have asked it if I Didn't want it.

A (3:19)

Yeah. So, you know, it almost seems today that if you are a naysayer regarding AI, you're treated as a Luddite or an ignoramus within the environment. And I don't consider myself to be either of those things. But I've been around long enough to see a lot of ready, fire, aim happen within technology. And what I do not believe we are effectively doing is recognizing the potential challenges and problems that exist out there, because we are all leaping to. It has to be AI. It has to be AI. It has to be AI. Without understanding the potential ramifications, the potential threats that exist out there within the environment, AI can do some great and wonderful things. The problem is several fold. One, as we test the limits, note the big air quotes of what AI can do. We're deploying AI in means that are probably overextending or increasing risk within the environment. And two, we are operating and being encouraged to operate in a model that says AI should be trusted within the environment. I'll use Google as an example or any major search engine as an example. One of the challenges we have with protecting data is when you go to protect data, you have two options. You either build Fort Knox or you convince people that the data that they're surrendering isn't worth as much as the service they're getting. Google took option two and said, hey, Gmail, Google utilities, et cetera, Google search engine, all of this data itself is meaningless. Just give it to us, we'll be fine. And they're using that to market to us, sell to us, sell our data, et cetera, where we've become the product within the environment. Now, as of October, we have all agreed, if you haven't done the formal opt out, that Google then can then utilize this data to train AI tools and large language models. That was one of these changes within the terms and services that if you didn't do it by Halloween, trick or treat. You've agreed to do this if you're using any Google products within the environment. The analytical power and the intelligence that can be derived from that is potentially massive. Yet we have freely surrendered that data for the ability to have a quote, unquote free email address or a quote, unquote free word processor or free cloud storage within the environment. I think we're seeing similar habits or traits erupt with AI within the environment. And everybody is focused on, we need to do this quickly to try and stay ahead. And in doing so, we're squashing and not paying attention to the potential threats that are out there, the potential risks that are out there. And my concern is that these things will erupt bigger, with a bigger blast radius when it's too late, as Silicon Valley and other organizations attempt to push AI without looking at all of the ramifications that are associated with it. So I think AI is a great tool. I think used properly, AI can be absolutely meaningful, helpful and raise the bar. I think we're racing towards chaos and disaster. I actually read a research paper and I'm going to have to dig out to find it, saying that if garbage in, garbage out. If AI takes in data that's inaccurate and tries to synthesize that to do certain things, and then agentic AI then utilizes that data to build on its own algorithms and its own code, and then the cycle continues.

B (7:32)

The data poisoning is crazy.

A (7:34)

And frankly, we're building crap is what it amounts to. And we're heading down a path where that possibility exists. Nobody's talking about it because everyone sees the potential, nobody sees the potential harm. And those that do are being labeled as tinfoil hat wearing idiots within the environment. So my concern here is not that we've leapt on the AI bandwagon, but that we have done it haphazardly as usual. And I think the light at the end of the tunnel may be a train if we're not careful.

B (8:14)

Yeah. So I agree with you on that perspective that there are. While it can do a lot of great things, there are massive, massive caveats that need to be considered. But I think there is this concern. I was at a panel a couple weeks ago and this came up, which is one of the people were talking and they said the reality is that shadow AI is a thing. If you don't get ahead of it, your employees are absolutely going to be using it with or without your approval, because that's just the nature.

A (8:44)

So let's be clear. Who here thinks they're ahead of it and if you're already behind.

B (8:48)

Absolutely.

A (8:49)

Who thinks you're going to get ahead of it?

B (8:52)

I agree with that. I think it's evolving at such a pace that you can't truly get ahead of it. But I think there's a difference between getting ahead of it, like quote, unquote, actually being ahead of it, properly managing it, and trying to take at least some proactive measures to control maybe what AI goes out. You met with Ben Yellen earlier this year and actually him and I had a great conversation about how umd, the school that he works for, has an AI program that is controlled and it is heavily built up and it is heavily monitored about what data can go in, who can log in to use it, it is vetted, et cetera. And I don't think that obviously that is a perfect solution. I'm sure I don't know the solution in that myself, but the aspect of attempting to just not have a gung ho, people just putting in and just going crazy with it.

A (9:39)

Yeah. And I. And I have no problem because again, AI is not the Antichrist. AI is not skydiving. And you know, we have to figure out how to adopt the tools. So coming up with a structured formal plan in terms of how to adopt for utilization of AI in your environment makes sense. Trying to adopt, you know, from storage, from Q and A, et cetera. That is a different animal than turning over all of your tier one SOC analyst work to agenta Ki.

B (10:07)

No, very.

A (10:08)

That is a different animal from what Shop has done is entered AI within their employment chart and started asking questions of interviewees as to what can you do that AI can't? Why should I hire you? Those are very different approaches. So making sure. Yeah. So what you're talking about makes perfect sense. But think about the things that I've just mentioned and that's going on now and continues to do so and transitioning a little bit to some of the conversations we've had. Both of the individuals who I had conversations with are former colleagues and I consider them both very, very dear friends. But I will go back to the conversation I had with Tony Goda, who Tony is a serial entrepreneur. He's an innovator. And part of the challenge I have Tony in some cases because I brought him, because I am the operator and have to operationalize his wild ideas on some occasions is to say, Tony, you're an evangelist, you're evangelizing. And I have no problem with evangelizing, but I have to implement what you've evangelized in the environment. And Tony's solution to that was to evangelize for the entire podcast, which is cool because it was very helpful. Sorry, Tony, I gotta give you shade because it's us and we do this was helpful, but that's what's happening in the environment. I have great people who are evangelizing and telling me what's going to go wrong if we don't adopt now. But these same people aren't contributing to the solution and they'd rather ignore it. And then when the. Excuse my language, when the shit hits the fan, the rest of us have to clean up. And these evangelists have gone on, in some cases have taken their cash and gone on while the rest of us are cleaning up the mess. That's my concern.

B (12:00)

It feels like to your point, in the market right now, not just within, you know, the broader market, but really within cyber, where if you don't see on a cyber page AI somewhere, you are losing the race. Because everyone is looking for the next solution that's going to revolutionize it. And that's why we talk about there's an AI bubble in general. Right? Because everyone has it, it's all perfect, it's all going to change the world. And reality is, is that most of these companies are not going to be successful and most of them are going to get either or going to fail or they're going to get swallowed up.

A (12:29)

Right? No, I agree with you completely. People are throwing spaghetti on the wall to see what sticks and it'll be a very small fraction who do within the environment and what that uniqueness looks like within the environment and where the need is within the environment. And right now the technology is so new that I think everyone is throwing down and saying, well, maybe it can do this and maybe it can do this and we're just trying it in different places. But it gets back to that old adage, just because you can doesn't mean you should. And we need to understand the differences between the two. And we haven't drawn those lines because we're all saying if you don't try it, we are behind that sense of where we have to catch up, we are behind. So we're trying everything, not understanding the nature of the problems we may be creating.

B (13:22)

So let's take that back for the listeners who either are aspiring or are current CISOs, et cetera, or lead leaders within the space. What do you do when you get tasked with this? Because oftentimes these things get they are above your pay grade of whether they get put in or not. To your point about Tony, this is what we're going to do and you kind of have to deal with it. Right. And what do you do? How do you manage that? What are the steps that people can take to implement security measures or as attempt to make it as secure as possible without out having a. Even if they don't have the option to outright refuse or say, well, maybe let's pump the brakes.

A (14:04)

So I go back, I'll give the specific example and that's our other guest on AI, Eric Nagle. In terms of what Eric's role was, and I think we mentioned it during the episode Eric is a recovering CISO like myself. He was on staff at Intuit like I was. I think he's actually just moved on to be an advisor for an AI startup. If I remember correctly, within recent. They're all joining, as a matter of fact. Yeah, they're all being stimulated. But Eric is also, you know, a patent attorney because it's the California bar. When he went to grad school, he went to law school. So having someone understand both the legal ramifications, the risk and the technology, et cetera, allowed him to put in governance models and reasonable controls and reasonable guardrails around what Intuit was doing within AI. And we were doing some innovative stuff within the environment. So what I would say here is for people who are being tasked to put this in is to say, okay, what is the end outcome and the desired outcome that you're looking for within the environment? What is the risk you're willing to accept within the environment? And part of that means we need to understand the technology, the potential risks that are out there with the technology, and communicate those accordingly. And then once we understand and have communicated those, and there's an organizational desire to accept those things within the environment, we now need to put in appropriate guardrails to make sure that risk stays in. In other words, we have to do our job. Because I could have said this about cloud, I could have said this about wireless, I could have said this about outsourcing, I could have said this about offshoring. This is the same thing we do with any other massive place in technology. The challenge that we have is we're now being placed even more in a position because of an artificial sense of urgency that if we slow down enough to do this, we're standing in the way. Yeah, but guys, this is the same challenge we've been facing for decades within the environment. Just faster. Yeah, stand your ground. You're going to have to. This is a case where, and I've had conversations on this podcast before about professionalism versus careerism, et cetera. This is the case where professionalism has to win, even at the expense of careerism. You know what you need to do. You know what you need to understand. Don't ignore it. Educate yourself, make sure educating your constituents out there, and do the job we're being paid for. Yeah, the how can be more complex. We understand that. I'm not downplaying the how within organizations, cultures, et cetera, but the what guys, we have been doing since networking existed. This is what we've been paid to do for decades.

B (16:49)

So let's take that same conversation and apply it to a different conversation that we had about technology and something that is, you know, you talk about how we've had the same approach, approach over the past, I don't know, decade with different technologies, whether it be cloud, etc. AI is the current one. But the thing that has been promised for is coming every five years for the better part of 20 years. Is quantum. The next, I think hot button word, you know, theoretically it's here or it's going to be here. You know, I've heard that since I was in high school. So, you know, yeah, sure, I, you know, I think we all make that joke, but I think it's starting to become very real now that you have government organizations putting out recommendations, putting out requirements for timelines, et cetera. And I think that that is kind of the momentum shifter where it's like, okay, this is maybe actually be a reality, not something that's a promise.

A (17:44)

Yeah, quantum computers exist now and they exist beyond just academia within the environment. Are you going to go down to your local Best buy and buy one within the next year to 4 years? Prob. Not. Definitely not within the next year to two, but in the next year to four years probably not. But there are impacts of quantum becoming more commercially available even to larger organizations within the environment. And we talk about that with Michael Satilli, who is the CSO of Quantinium. If I'm pronouncing quantilium, I apologize in the environment and some of the things to do. But the big things for me as I look at the new tech, also start with basics. Part of basics is asset analysis. Any good CISO who wants to defend needs to know what their assets are. In the case of quantum, what are your quantum vulnerable assets? And we talked about this in the essay leading up to that episode. In terms of what systems are using pre quantum encryption algorithms, where are those keys stored? Is the encryption baked into the actual application or into the system? What's the ability to disentangle that within the environment? And just right now be aware and build awareness, be aware of the different quantum standards that are out there and build awareness that this is what quantum means within the environment. And it's not tomorrow, but it's not a decade out either. And that's all we can really do right now on that space, Ethan. And there's nothing wrong with understanding that those quantum vulnerable assets and migrating as much as possible to quantum assured encryption algorithms out there. If I can begin to do that now, we won't be in the scramble. Because remember what happened with Gen AI. It's coming, it's coming. Holy. It's here. And there's a lot of scramble. If we begin to take that level of approach now, we won't see that scramble when the time comes.

B (19:56)

And do you think there is some concern that, I mean it's something that I've been wondering that, you know, obviously everyone's so caught up in Gen AI, some of it's catching up to your point of being like, oh, we didn't think it was here and suddenly it's here. We need to get ahead of this now. I get onto it now, now, now, now, now, et cetera. That Quantum isn't getting probably the attention it deserves for the impact that it's going to have, especially on security in terms of encryption, stored data, pii, et cetera. That the attention that is being gobbled up, so to speak, by AI gen, AI, et cetera, is that going to detract?

A (20:31)

I don't think so. Think about this for a second. AI's impact was B to C. Yeah. Okay. Quantum's impact will initially be B to B. It will allow things within large enterprises to work differently, smarter or faster, et cetera, within the environment. Your mom and pop store is not going to right away. I don't think, I don't think within the next five to 10 years have a Quantum laptop on their desk.

B (21:01)

Yeah.

A (21:02)

Or interfacing in that environment. Their impact is going to be a change of the underlying encryption software that exists on it. You need to upgrade your laptop because your laptop can't handle the quantum encryption software. I think we're going to see that level of change down to the individual consumer. But the impact of AI and the scramble, in my opinion, and I've got the business acumen of a fiddler crab, is because it went directly to the consumer. And now we're all responding as to how do we build upon that momentum that exists within the consumer. I don't think Quantum is going to have that level of consumer based impact versus business based impact. And it will start with large scale enterprises who are doing research or product development. And I'm totally riffing here, this comes true. You heard it here first. I, I, I, I could see large pharmaceutical companies using, for, for, for research. I, I could see companies that do massive amounts of data analytics, the alphabets of the world, et cetera, utilizing quantum based computing to speed up their processes as well within the environment. That combined with AI engines, you know, can present a lot of opportunity. Speaking of opportunities, I can see a lot of nation states utilizing AI engines and quantum computing within the backgr pieces of intelligence and do levels of predictive analysis within the environment. I see those being the first big markets before Quantum commercializes within the environment that it's for that very reason that we are, you know, there are folks that are pushing back on the concern regarding the encryption algorithms a la harvest now, decrypt later, because there's a belief that, look, the large Google doesn't necessarily have an incentive to try and break your encryption. You know, Apple doesn't necessarily have an incentive to try and break your encryption. It's not the first thing they're going to do with the Quantum computer. And Google and Apple and Meta are going to be probably the first big buyers of the big quantum computers if they have not done so already. So I don't see Quantum got pushed to the back burner because a new shiny toy and widget got marketed to the average consumer. And now everyone's jumping on that bandwagon. I don't think it's changed the trajectory of Quantum and I don't think it will cause Quantum to be downplayed. I think Quantum has always been downplayed because the question we've been asking is how it's going to impact my day to day, my week to week, by month to month. And other than encryption, I don't see that answer yet again. Other than what Michael, you know and what Michael discussed and he what we're talking about is in line with a lot of what he said. Have you ever imagined how you'd redesign and secure your network infrastructure if you could start from scratch? What if you could build the hardware, firmware and software with a vision of frictionless integration, resilience and scalability? What if you could turn complexity into simplicity? Forget about constant patching. Streamline the number of vendors you use, reduce those ever expanding costs and instead spend your time focusing on helping your business and customers thrive. Meet Meter, the company building full stack zero trust networks from the ground up. With security at the core, at the edge and everywhere in between. Meter Designs, deploys and manages everything an enterprise needs for fast, reliable and secure connectivity. They eliminate the hidden costs and maintenance burdens, patching risks and reduce the inefficiencies of traditional infrastructure. From wired, wireless and cellular to routing, switching, firewalls, DNS security and vpn. Every layer is integrated, segmented and continuously protected through a single unified platform. And because Meter provides networking as a service, enterprises avoid heavy capital expenses and unpredictable upgrade cycles. Meter even buys back your old infrastructure to make switching that much easier. Go to meter.com CISOP today to learn more about the future of secure networking and book your demo. That's M-E-T-E-R.com CISOP.

B (26:27)

Yeah. So to pivot to the the last episode of the season because we talk about businesses that are here now, technology that's here now, and the marketing that's going on with it and technology that is coming. And in the last episode, you met with John from Data Tribe and you guys talked about. It was a very great conversation. I highly implore people to go listen to it because I think it shines a light on the business side of cyber and tech that many don't consider. And I think in previous conversations you've alluded to this, which is obviously there has to be caveats, but the goal is to make as secure infrastructure as possible. The goal is to get technology that isn't just, I think, the way you would describe as window tinting and not and is actually changing what we're doing and making it better. Right. And I think he shined a light on this perspective, which is sometimes it's not even, oh, let's keep the money in the house and do these small little incremental upgrades. There's other issues with China getting these companies funding. It has nothing to do with that at times.

A (27:33)

Yeah. And it's interesting because those of us who are sitting in the trenches, we talk about the goal being there to make the environment as secure as possible. One of the things I teach when I teach sans, is to do so in a way that allows the business to operate and generate revenue and advance a strategy within the environment. And when I say that to a group of technologists, I look at who push back and say, question, do you work for free? Do you work for free? Would you work as hard as you do right now when I pay you no money? All of you, all of us want to generate revenue. I generate revenue by going to work every day and doing the things that I'm doing in the environment. So us securing the environment to a point where the business fails is a gesture and stupidity. And we need to change that perspective. What I liked about my conversation with John was it was a reminder of the need to change that perspective in many cases. It's not that VC folks aren't listening. It's not that private equity folks aren't listening. It's not that they don't care. It's how we balance out the need for us to adopt to solve the problem in a way that will allow those investors who are investing, not small dollars to generate revenue and some basis of return and balancing that collectively across the board. In the essay that I intro this one, that episode with, I talk about the use case where a technology that would have solved, genuinely solved a lot of the identity problems we're trying to solve right now was put in front of a VC firm X number of years ago and was rejected because he was told it would drive the rest of the portfolio out of business. While that does not feel good, as someone who's trying to solve an identity problem and watching companies almost 10 years ago try and solve the same problem with more inferior technologies out there, it was not an unreasonable stance to take. Why adopt something that's going to cause 50% of my portfolio to go away? And it doesn't make that individual evil, though they were kind of rude about how they did it and it doesn't make them unreasonable in terms of what they did within the environment. And John gave some good insight into how VCs, you know, pick different, look at different startups, look at the problem and some of the things that they're doing to try and close the gap between the needs of me, the operator and the needs of the investor. There were two things that he mentioned during that that I want to reemphasize here. One is their time horizon. I mentioned during the episode that I genuinely believe that there are just not enough truly strategic CISOs out there who are thinking about the problem strategically. And I spend a lot of time on these shows and when I teach SANS to try and elevate thinking to truly strategic thinking thinking, the strategic thinking tends to at the best case, go five years out. Usually it's one to three, some cases it's one to four, one to five years out. In some cases VCs are looking at time horizons beyond the strategic window. So truly beginning to stretch the thinking within the cone of plausibility beyond your initial strategic window is hard even for the best strategic CSIPs. But the other thing that he mentioned that we need to do more of is if we are going to complain that we're not seeing investment in those companies that meet our needs, we have to show up and communicate those needs to venture capitalists and things like, you know, the advisory boards or the dinners or the calls, et cetera are how we do that. So when we choose not to do that, we take away an opportunity for someone who is asking our opinion to get that opinion and insight so that they can make better decisions in Other words, if we want to solve the problem, we got to show up and we don't do that as well as we should.

B (31:56)

And I think there's an argument to be made there that yeah, like that I don't want to say the word politicking but or maybe networking, that aspect of having those conversations, some of them may not be fruitful and that can be both discouraging and frustrating. But I think it is valuable because even if only one or two or a handful of them do bear fruit, that does lead to an eventual better market position for you as a leader to buy better security products that actually have impact on what you're trying to do. And I thought it was very interesting from John's conversation with you that another challenge that he saw was entrepreneurs who don't really want to commit to being a full time entrepreneur. Maybe they are professors, maybe they are semi retired, maybe it could be many other things. Maybe they have their multi entrepreneurs, they have multiple ideas and the aspect that while the idea may be really good or the product may be very good, there is a risk element that VCs take on and that's a reality.

A (32:57)

If I want to ask you for a seven digit figure to help fund my new idea, I want to know that you're as committed as that 7 digitized by Google figure. And that's not a part time commitment and that can be difficult. I, I've run into, you know, Arizona State also has an incubation model where one of our professors, former military guy, actually was developing a product in house but didn't want to give up his teaching assignment. So figuring out how to do both of those was very, very difficult.

B (33:26)

Yep, it's something that makes sense and as a challenge, but nothing that I would normally have considered because my thought process was from the VC side. If someone's looking for money, they're all in, they're ready to go. They're not looking to buy and sell off or just be half in. I always thought it was okay, we're going vc, let's get everyone involved on this.

A (33:46)

Yeah. And it gets really interesting because there's that balance between that and putting food on the table. I had mentioned after the show my time with working with Jack Jones who founded the Fair Institute and built and created the Fair Model. I met Jack at the time, you know, he was working with that model, but he was also working as CISO for a Midwestern bank at the time because he had to keep food on the table while he was developing the company that was deploying you know, the model at the time. So balancing those two can be difficult.

B (34:28)

So taking a step back, because while we did this reflection on the past couple episodes, I like to put it into picture for the whole season, because throughout this season, we've had fantastic conversations about emerging technologies. We've had fantastic conversations about hard realities. We've had fantastic conversations about existing blind spots that could get worse if they're not addressed. And I think when you sit back and you look at this entire season, how do you feel about this brave new world, this word, this phrase that we've been talking about? What are the major challenges that you're seeing from a business side and from a security leader side, as well as what are the biggest opportunities that you think are emerging out there?

A (35:19)

Great question. So, first, as a recap, because we've only used it a couple of cases throughout the season, the tagline internally for this season was brave new world. I use leading into the season. Congratulations, you're CISO now. What. What are some of the things that you are facing, you know, beyond, you know, beyond just the tech stack and beyond just the. The incident of the month or beyond just the new legislation that you need to be aware of. So what I hope this did this entire season was allowed us to deep dive into some issues like identity and like fraud and like a regulatory landscape and AI and quantum, et cetera, to provide that education for even current CISOs who may not have had, you know, we know what our day is like, that don't necessarily have the opportunity to deep dive, to begin to have those conversations and begin to get a little education on that as we put the pieces, as we put the pieces together within the environment. So that was the intention of the season. As we are now looking at wrapping up the season in terms of where my head is at, I see every CISO is an optimist, and I genuinely believe that, because every day you look at 10 quintillion different ways that things can go wrong, and you get up underfunded, very tired, not enough sleep, et cetera, and you get up and go stand in the gap and say, yeah, we can take them. And you go. And then you get up, you know, battered and bruised and do the same damn thing the next day. So every ceso, in my opinion, is a consummate optimist. And as a former csaw, I'm still an optimist. I believe that the world is a little better, you know, because, you know, we stand in the gap line shoulder to shoulder, you know, you know, trying to beat back the bad guys. So on the positive side, I believe in the opportunities. I believe in the value of the technology. I believe we are going to see some great things out of AI. I believe we're going to see some great things out of Quantum. I believe that technologies are going to continue to evolve to beat back fraud better than we have before. But I also believe that I'm not going to lack for work while that is going on, to be brutally honest with you. But the other thing that I would emphasize that is a cause for not pessimism or skepticism but concern is I believe we are losing sight of the fundamentals. I believe that and this is an education problem, it's a critical thinking problem. It's also cyber problem. I think the disconnect that exists between old farts like myself and people we're hiring is what we're not necessarily seeing are the critical thinking skills. As it becomes easier as I hold up my iPhone, for us to get everything we need by googling on the iPhone and now by using ChatGPT on the iPhone, we are depending upon external sources for answers as to what went wrong and have to understand much less about the underlying pieces and parts of the systems that have caught in the environment to cause the problem problem. And that's a concern within cyber. I was talking to my class that I teach at Berkeley. About half of one of my sections are computer science majors. So I said, okay, there are six of you that are computer science majors. How many of you had to take a basic assembler course within college? And four of them put their hands down. If you don't understand the basic fundamentals of how the system works, your ability to effectively secure it will be limited. And as tools make it easier for us to get answers, ChatGPT, anyone, you know, just spit out at us. If we frame the right question in our need to understand those pieces and parts will continue to diminish. I mean, I'm gonna be old again. I'm old enough to remember where there's things called script kitties didn't exist. If you wanted to hack, you damn sure better know the code versus having an account to pay somebody some bitcoin to send you a piece of code to hack my environment. So what, you know, Skip Kitty is a real thing right now within the environment. So, you know, our continuing diminishment of the need to understand how things work as the technology becomes more capable of doing things, I believe is going to represent a significant challenge within the next 10 years of our ability to secure the environment. Now you add that to the conversation you and I had about AI continuing to produce bad code based upon bad code based upon bad data, we're going to see an increase in potential vulnerability, an increase in potential blast radius. At about the same time, we have a decreased ability to understand truly what's going on in the environment. So all I will say is this is a good time for me to think about retiring, but there's a good chance like for the last two times I ain't gonna be able to. Cause someone's gonna tap me on the shoulder and say we need one more person with his sword and shield standing in the gap. Because I think that gap will be bigger unless we solve those problems. Part of that is educational. Part of that is the education system. Figuring out what the requirements are for a good cyber professional. A goodly portion of that is the profession because we still haven't figured out what the requirements are in the environment. Part of that is our ability to give back because there aren't enough of us who are whining and complaining about the lack of talented skill that we see coming out of various systems who are stepping up to been doing anything about it except whining and complaining. So we need to show up, tell people what we want and participate in the process rather than just complain and watch things continue to fall by the wayside. So I am still very positive. I am still very optimistic. But I see that problem cresting the horizon. I hope and pray. Like the old show Monk, the theme song. I may be wrong now, but I don't think so.

B (41:58)

Well, Kim, I thank you for your time today to take a step back and reflect on the conversations we've had, not just over the past couple episodes, but this season in general. It's been different from the last one, but I think just as equally valuable and insightful. So I appreciate everything that you provided and all the quality conversations that your guests have also provided.

A (42:34)

And that's a wrap for today's episode and for this season of CISO Perspectives. This episode was edited by Ethan Cook with content strategy provided by Mayon Plout, produced by Liz Stokes, executive produced by Jennifer Ibin, and mixing sound design and original music by Elliot Peltzman. Thanks so much for tuning in and for your support. As N2K Pro subscribers, your continued support enables us to keep making shows like this one and we couldn't do it without you. We're so grateful to have had you with us this season. From all of us here, thank you for listening. We look forward to bringing you more expert insights and meaningful discussions next season. Securing and managing enterprise networks shouldn't mean juggling vendors, patching hardware, or managing endless complexity. Meter builds full stack zero trust networks from the ground up, secure by design and automatically kept up to date. Every layer from wired and wireless to firewalls, DNS security and VPN is integrated, segmented and continuously protected through one unified platform. With Meter, security is built in, not bolted on. Learn more and book your demo@meter.com CISOP that's N-E-T-E-R.com CISOP and we thank Meter for their support in unlocking this N2K Pro episode for all Cyberwire listeners. Sam.