Maria Vermazes (13:30)

I'm thrilled to meet you and I have read your book and it was so up my alley I cannot tell you. I was reading it going, yeah, so yeah, lost in time, our forgotten and vanishing knowledge. I'm sure many other listeners can relate. When I first saw Cosmos hosted by Carl Sagan, and he was talking about the Library of Alexandria and wondering about what kind of knowledge we lost when I started reading your book and the premise of what kind of knowledge did we have collectively? Humanity that we have since lost, that we can somehow try and regain. But you know, what have we known and then forgotten? It is profoundly well researched. I just have to say that the depth of knowledge that you have in here is quite incredible. Yeah, tell me about what motivated you to write this, because this is not something someone casually walks into.

Jack R. Bialik (14:19)

Yeah, so like I mentioned, I was doing a lot of research. I I spent a lot of time collecting this knowledge. And you know, there are so many examples of things that we've done 2,000 years ago or more, some 4,000, 5,000 years ago, you know, that just span the range of technologies. And what I want to say, you know, inventions, I guess is the right word. You know, cataract Surgery we did over 2000 years ago, 4000 years ago. Chrome and metallurgy batteries 2000 years ago. Computers 2000 years ago. Toilets and plumbing 5000 years ago. Vending machines 2000, over 2000 years ago. Cranial surgery, all kinds of things. And so what happened was I started putting this information together. I said, wow, we did all this stuff in antiquity and now we're doing it again. What happened? I mean, what was the impetus behind this? Why did this happen? And so I started thinking about, well, what's the point? You know? Yeah, you know, so here it is, and here we are in the digital age and we're saving information. And I said, wow, what are we doing to ourselves now? Are we doing something or not doing something that we're going to eventually end up losing what we have today? You know, if we take a look at it, you know, just start out way back, you know, thousands of years ago, we wrote on stone tablets. Of course, that's lasted forever. It's not very data density, you know, rich, but there's, you know, it lasts a long time. Then we moved to papyrus and then, you know, paper, and then maybe microfiche and, you know, magnetic media and so on. And now we're using, you know, SSD drives and thumb drives and USB drives. Whatever you want to call. Although the data density is huge, is tremendous, the lifespan has gotten shorter and shorter and shorter. The other day I was trying to find some pictures, and I pulled up eight USB drives trying to find a picture from, I don't know, eight years ago or something, and only six of them worked. You know. You know, how long does your computer work for? Not that long. And something goes. It's electronics. Something's gonna fail. So that's the point of the book, really is. And that was the. The reason to. To write it was to raise awareness to everyone. I mean, if you have something important, think about where you're going to put it. Maybe use redundant copies, maybe put it multiple places. If it's important for future generations to access it. So we don't. We tend not to think about it is really the point.

Maria Vermazes (17:19)

Yeah. Until it's often an overwhelming problem or what you just said, I think touches on for so many of us, not just our professional lives, but also our personal lives. In terms of. As I was reading your book, I could just think of. And I was getting to the. When I got to the part of the book where you were talking about the sheer volume of information that we in more modern times have generated and where that's all going. I can just think of so many examples of that. Where photo morgues from newspapers, where these are huge catalogs of local photos that people are trying to figure out what to do with. And these are just decades of data. But it becomes a resource issue of who's going to manage this, who's going to catalog all this, what kind of formats are going to last, how can it be easily searchable? I mean it is an overwhelming problem.

Jack R. Bialik (18:05)

It really is. And I don't know that we're spending enough time thinking about it. We're spending time thinking about, oh, how can we save the information, how much can we put here? You know, maybe reliability is also part of it, you know, making sure that it's reliable and accessible for a certain amount of time. But some of our devices, I was looking it up just recently, nand, SSD drives or USB drives, they have a built in shelf life. I mean they only work for so long, five years, maybe 10. We don't think about it when we're especially personal, when we're saving something we don't think about. So I interviewed the curator at the Computer History Museum near San Francisco and he had something really interesting to say. Because they have all these old PCs, you know, Macs, Macintoshes or Apple computers and they, you know, use floppy drives for data retention and storage. And he said, well, what they've had to do because those drives become brittle and they fall apart and they can't read them anymore, they've had to take their computer programs and print them on paper. So it's a little bit like going backwards, you know, what's going on here?

Maria Vermazes (19:26)

We're going to go back to punch cards soon.

Jack R. Bialik (19:30)

Oh no.

Maria Vermazes (19:31)

I know, it's like we're bringing it way back. Yeah, I, it is such an interesting problem to think about. Especially I know corporations and businesses are always thinking about backups for their intellectual property. But even just on a personal level, things like family photos and videos, I'm sure many people I know I have have had to become a little bit of a family archivist and figure out how do I get those Super 8 videos onto a format that we can now watch and, or now there's a sheer volume of photo and video residing on my smartphone. Who on earth is going to go through all this?

Jack R. Bialik (20:07)

Yeah, you know, it's a huge problem even for museums, you know, who have terabytes of pictures and videos and whatever. What was the format that that data was stored in? Well, it was maybe a jpeg. Well, you know, there's a New JPEG standard that's come out, JPEG 2000. And now what happens? Does the museum have to go and translate everything over, you know, to this new standard? Is there any problems with that? Are they going to lose any, you know, quality of the, the pictures or, you know, and how much time and work and energy does it take to do that? You know, there's, there's a lot of real problems about, you know, data storage and retention.

Maria Vermazes (20:51)

And it also becomes a, I think quality comes into play here also what's worth keeping. And that's a curatorial thing. And I mean, I think about the information that we have that has survived from antiquity. We assume that that was the stuff that people wanted to go into, you know, eternity, so to speak. But who knows what we've lost? Right? And you mentioned that in the book many times. Who knows what we've actually lost?

Jack R. Bialik (21:14)

Oh, yeah. So they estimate only 1.6% of history has been recorded. And so what, you know, 1.6%, that's not a big number, you know, so, so, you know, what have we done that we've forgotten and lost? They estimate during the Baghdad War, this might be timely during the Baghdad war that over 1 million artifacts were lost and destroyed in, in museums and, you know, libraries and that sort of thing. And that's, you know, kind of the cradle of civilization where things started out and, you know, it's been, it's lost, it's gone forever. You know, we're not going to recover that. So. Yeah, yeah.

Maria Vermazes (22:00)

I wanted to say thank you for a specific passage that you wrote towards the end that I just want to. I think it's worth calling out, sorry, I have it, I have it dog eared here, which I know is. I'm not supposed to dog ear books, but I.

Dave Bittner (22:13)

Do

Maria Vermazes (22:15)

you specifically mention that we need to give credit to our predecessors that they are as intelligent as we are. We just have a different set of tools. I really appreciate that you said that because it is incredible when we see how ingenious our predecessors, our ancestors, were and the things that they were able to do with the tools they had available. And one wonders what they could do now with what we have. And it also made me think, what will people think of us 2000 years from now about our primitive means, what we had available to us. In a way, just giving humanity credit for figuring out what it has. It also becomes this existential thing of are we just on this treadmill going over and over, kind of rediscovering the same things? Are we really Making that much progress.

Jack R. Bialik (22:57)

Yeah, yeah. You know, someone asked me, why do we do this? You know, and it's obvious if you, if you go and look, I mean, some of this stuff's amazing. The vending machine that was in ancient Rome that, that you'd put a Roman coin in and it would dispense holy water at temples, and it would make steam come out and go on the face of an idol and make it look like it was crying so they could get more donations.

Maria Vermazes (23:24)

Yep.

Jack R. Bialik (23:25)

I mean, things haven't changed. Right.

Maria Vermazes (23:28)

I was going to say that the more things change. Right. That's. That's quite amazing. Yeah. And it's so. It feels so human that that's. That would be the motivation is like, give me more money for this. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Jack R. Bialik (23:42)

But we. We do. We keep. We keep doing it over. And really, you know, think about it. It's based on what we use as our background, our. You know, we base everything on kind of atoms and molecules and kind of the scientific method and so on. And you think, you know, 2,000, 4,000 years ago, what did they base their thoughts on? You know, was it different basis? So they would come up with different things, you know, probably different inventions. Many of the human inventions are the same because we always have a need for a toilet and we always have a need for, you know, being able to see. So, you know, those things tend to recur. But there may be some inventions in the past that we've had that we've lost, you know, that maybe we'll find again.

Maria Vermazes (24:32)

So for our audience who are thinking about, I'm sure many of them are in the world of backups for just a corporate situation alone. And they're going, oh, I know that we need many copies of things, but it is a lot harder to do in reality than I would like. But what would you like them to take away from this when they're reading your book?

Jack R. Bialik (24:51)

Yeah, well, you know, organizations today, corporate organizations, they have data retention standards. They have, you know, usually, you know, that laid out pretty well so they know what they want to retain and what they want to lose. We need to just take the big picture and think about, well, what beyond that, what else do we want to save for future generations to make it easier for them so that it isn't difficult. And we've had examples where we've forgotten things. You know, I'll take, for example, toilets and sewer systems and water distribution systems were very good. You know, in ancient Rome they had them. But in the Middle Ages, you know, in the 1300s, 1400s in Europe, sewage ran off the top of buildings and into the streets. And so why did we forget that? You know, what, what is going on here? Why are we doing that to ourselves? And so think about it from a corporate standpoint. What are we saving? Is there something we need to save that's bigger? You know, maybe something on a global culture that we need to save that would be good for humanity all across the world, you know, bigger than just a corporation. And also, I'd like people to think about it on a personal basis. You know, I want them to take it away and say, hey, what about these? You know, these pictures right here are important to our family. And what can I do to save them? Maybe I need to print them or make multiple copies so people have access later on. So that's really the big takeaway from it all.

Dave Bittner (26:36)

That's Maria Vermazes and Jack R. Bialik. The book is titled In Lost in Time Our Forgotten and Vanishing Knowledge. No, it's not your imagination. Risk and regulation really are ramping up, and customers expect proof of security before they'll sign that deal. That's where Vanta comes in. Vanta automates your compliance process and brings compliance, risk and customer trust together on one AI powered platform. Whether you're preparing for SoC2 or managing an enterprise governance risk and compliance program, Vanta helps keep you secure and keeps your deals moving. Companies like Ramp and writer spend 82% less time on audits with Vanta. That's not just faster compliance, that's more time for growth. Take it from me, if you're thinking about compliance, take the time to check out Vanta. Get started@vanta.com cyber. And finally, in early March, as Dutch travelers scrambled to leave the Gulf amid rising tensions, De Telegraph published a hopeful story. A woman in Dubai, Tamara Harimah, was reportedly organizing private evacuation flights home. Seats on a chartered Airbus A321 were said to cost €1600, and demand was apparently brisk. Bellingcat soon took a closer look, and things unraveled rather quickly. Harima's photo showed several telltale signs of generative AI, including distorted objects and architectural details that did not match reality. The supposed evacuation flight also proved elusive. Flight tracking data showed no Airbus A321 departing Muscat for the Netherlands on the dates mentioned. After Bellingcat raised questions, the newspaper quietly removed the image, noting it likely failed to meet journalistic standards. The interview remains online, leaving readers with a curious modern mystery, a humanitarian flight effort that may have existed mainly in pixels and good intentions. And that's the Cyber Wire. For links to all of today's stories, check out our daily briefing@thecyberwire.com be sure to check out this week's Research Saturday and my conversation with or eshed, co founder and CEO of LayerX Security. We're discussing their research uncovering a campaign of 16 malicious browser extensions disguised as ChatGPT productivity tools. That's Research Saturday. Check it out. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing world of cybersecurity. If you like our show, please share a rating and review in your favorite podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to cyberwire2k.com N2K's lead producers, Liz Stokes, were mixed by Trey Hester with original music and sound design by Elliot Peltzman. Our contributing host is Maria Vermazes. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ibin. Peter Kilpe is our publisher and I'm Dave Bittner. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week.

Maria Vermazes (30:45)

Foreign.

Dave Bittner (30:54)

If you only attend one cybersecurity conference this year, make it RSAC 2026. It's happening March 23rd through the 26th in San Francisco, bringing together the global security community for four days of expert insights, hands on learning and real innovation. I'll say this plainly, I never miss this conference. The ideas and conversations stay with me all year. Join thousands of practitioners and leaders tackling today's toughest challenges and shaping what comes next. Register today@rsaconference.com cyberwire26 I'll see you in San Francisco.