Chicago Bulls have dropped 8 of 10, falling to 10-15 on the season

Summary

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Dan Bernstein Unfiltered – Episode Summary

Episode: Chicago Bulls have dropped 8 of 10, falling to 10-15 on the season

Podcast: Dan Bernstein Unfiltered
Date: December 16, 2025
Hosts: Dan Bernstein & Matt Abbatacola (“Penis Fly Trap”)
Main Focus: A decidedly unfiltered look at the Chicago Bulls’ recent collapse, the root causes of their dysfunction, trade rumors, and the bleak outlook for the remainder of the season.

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Overview

This episode finds the hosts in classic form: blending sharp-edged analysis, frustration-laden debate, and humor as they dissect the Chicago Bulls’ recent plunge—losing 8 of their last 10 games to fall to 10-15. Bernstein waives the podcast’s no “doom spiral” rule, declaring the situation grim enough to warrant some honest, even apocalyptic, discourse. They discuss the Bulls’ broken roster construction, culture problems, trade speculation, and ongoing organizational aimlessness.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Permission Granted: Doom Spiral Mode

• Mood Check: Dan acknowledges things are so dire that even their usual effort to avoid constant doom-and-gloom has to be set aside.

  • Quote: “I’m waiving our rule of no doom spiral. I’m waving it because I think it’s gotten to the point where… it’s inconceivable not to doom spiral.” (00:53)
  • Matt: “The Bulls are bad. Worthy of big picture speculation once again.” (02:08)

• Stats Snapshot:

  • Offensive rating: 23rd of 30
  • Defensive rating: 25th of 30
  • Net rating: 23rd; minus-5 (00:53)

2. Why Have the Bulls Collapsed?

• Analysis of Team Flaws:

  • Lack of rim protection and physicality exposed by the league.
  • Drop defense vulnerable due to weak center defense.
  • Injuries to key rotation players like Collins, White, Herter, Okoro, and Williams disrupted any early momentum. (03:31–04:08)
  • Quote: "They kind of are physical cowards and they don’t have any rim protection, so we’ll just attack them physically." – Dan (02:46)

• Roster Construction Debate:

  • Dan: Believes the roster has enough pieces to be more competitive, if not well-constructed.
  • Matt: “They have pieces, but not ones that go together. I think they’re poorly built...” (05:24)
  • Only “tough” current players: Collins, Herter, Tre Jones, IO, and maybe Okoro, but Okoro “is bad.” (05:54)

3. Development, Drafting, and the Young Talent Gap

• Frustration with Missed Opportunities:

  • Watching young stars like Jeremiah Fears and Cooper Flagg excel elsewhere is painful.
  • Bulls resisted tanking, missing out on franchise-altering prospects. (06:17–07:41)

• On Modest Bouzelis:

  • Acknowledgement he’s “fine,” but not tracking as an All-Star yet.
  • Dan: “We just gotta get ‘All Star’ completely out of the conversation for him. … There’s nothing right now that suggests he’s on an All Star trajectory.” (11:05)
  • Fears is seen as more dynamic and exciting compared to Bouzelis at this point. (24:08–24:11)
  • The Bulls have only one promising young core piece: Josh Giddey. (09:54, 11:55)

4. Trade Rumors and the Rebuild Delusion

• Vucevic Situation:

  • Hosts agree he’s done everything asked of him and deserves a shot elsewhere.
  • “Reward Vooch by getting him out of here. … I feel bad for him being stuck here.” – Dan (07:52)

• Trade Rumors & Skepticism:

  • The idea of trading for Domantas Sabonis makes no sense to them (08:43–09:16).
  • “Is this an endless circle…where the Bulls become the Kings and the Kings become the Bulls? Then I’m out.” – Dan (09:16)

• Draft Picks Needed, Not Old Vets:

  • Strong admonition: Do not trade for aging veterans like Sabonis or Daniel Theis; the team desperately needs draft assets and to play young prospects. (13:17–13:26)

5. Culture, Coaching, & Management Blame

• On Billy Donovan:

  • Not a coaching issue; roster construction is the real culprit.
    • “This is not a Billy Donovan problem. … It’s a roster construction problem.” – Dan (14:28)
  • Donovan’s made the most out of “bleh” rosters before (bubble Thunder), but there’s only so much possible with this group. (15:19–15:31)

• Brutal Assessment of AK (Artūras Karnišovas):

  • Endless “rebuilds of rebuilds of rebuilds.”
  • “How many builds does AK get?” – Dan (11:36)
  • Matt: “You can’t retool a team that has nothing in the toolbox. Except for Josh Giddey.” (11:45)
  • Dan: “Giddey … is the only guy that you keep.” (16:11)

6. Contrast With Other Teams’ Young Talent

• Every other NBA team seems to have multiple promising young players—even the struggling Wizards and Blazers.
• Bulls have only Dalen Terry and Julian Phillips among prospects, and neither looks impactful. (13:52)
• Bulls’ culture of development is repeatedly mocked: “The amount of young talent that’s out there right now, it almost seems like you have to try to avoid having some of these guys when every single team…” (24:49)

7. Organizational Apathy and Fan Frustration

• Team aimlessly chases the play-in—no clear vision.
• “Where are we? Come out and talk, AK. Tell us what the goals are this season. What are we doing here, what—why are we doing this, and what are we doing?” – Dan (19:05)
• Matt: “He’s said the same thing every year for five years, so I don’t trust him anymore. Get him out of the building. … Fire everybody.” (19:14)
• Disillusionment with Reinsdorf ownership: “We can sell out the arena even if we suck and we don’t want to spend a lot of time on it because I’m lazy and stupid. Fine, just say it.” – Matt (19:55)
• The arena’s statues, banners, and trophies feel like relics of a bygone era totally disconnected from the present state of affairs. (20:43–21:57)

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• Doom Spiral Permission:
  “I’m waiving our rule of no doom spiral… It’s inconceivable to not doom spiral.” – Dan (00:53)

• Roster Analysis:
  “They have pieces, but not ones that go together. … I really don’t know what AK is trying to do at all.” – Matt (05:29)

• On Vucevic:
  “Reward Vooch by getting him out of here. Get him somewhere he can ring chase.” – Dan (07:52)

• Future Prospects:
  “Every other team comes in has got some giant rim protector that’s swatting away all these little forays to the basket and then ate them alive. … And the Bulls are—” – Dan (22:42)

• Franchise Malaise:
  “You look at those trophies that are in the stadium. If that is not your goal, because if not, take them away at this point.” – Matt (21:44)

• On Potential Trades:
  “If they do start dealing, don’t deal for old veterans. … You need draft capital. You need to value draft capital.” – Dan (13:17)

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Timestamps – Key Segments

• 00:53-02:08 – Abandoning the “no doom spiral” rule; Bulls’ shocking statistical woes
• 03:00-04:30 – Dissection of the team’s defensive collapse, injury bug, and broken lineup
• 05:24-06:17 – Debate on roster construction, toughness, and whether any pieces fit together
• 06:17-07:41 – Lamenting draft misses (Fears, Queen, Flagg); why the Bulls didn’t tank
• 07:52-08:43 – Should Vucevic be traded for his own good?
• 09:01-09:16 – Skepticism around Sabonis trade rumors (“what’s the plan?”)
• 11:05-11:26 – “All-Star” expectations and the reality of Bouzelis’ ceiling
• 14:28-15:31 – Coaches not to blame; Billy Donovan’s history
• 19:05-19:14 – Demand for direction from AK and organization
• 20:43-21:57 – Bulls’ legacy—statues, banners, and their disconnect with the current product
• 24:08-24:11 – “Would you rather have Jeremiah Fears or Bouzelis right now?” “Fears.”
• 26:16-27:35 – Even the Spurs’ success formula (“just have Wembanyama”)
• 29:32-36:00 – Basketball trivia segment on winning percentages and steals leaders (light-hearted, competitive banter)

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Tone and Dynamic

• Language/Tone: Direct, wry, often profane, deeply frustrated but darkly funny (“I don’t know, you just pissed me off…” (29:12))
• Interpersonal:
  • Matt repeatedly “rage baits” Dan for comic effect.
  • The hosts mix sibling-style needling with world-weary basketball insights.
  • Occasional tangents (kicker carousels in the NFL; G League vs. Bulls entertainment value).

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Conclusion

This episode captures a Bulls fanbase and media landscape in existential crisis. Through statistical autopsies, emotional venting, trade deadline dread, and weary inside jokes, Dan Bernstein and Matt Abbatacola lay bare the deep rot gnawing at the franchise. Their unfiltered assessment is simple: the current organization has lost its way, and until ownership and management embrace real change—building through youth and accumulating meaningful assets—Chicago fans should expect more pain and mediocrity.

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For Bulls fans who haven’t tuned in:
This is the episode to hear if you want your frustration validated, your hopes put in perspective, and your franchise’s dysfunction dissected by two voices that care as much—and rage as much—as you do.

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Transcript

[A]

Organizations Win Championships. A Chicago Bulls podcast with Jason and.

[B]

Dan Bernstein on Three One Two Sports.

[A]

It's episode 123 of Organizations Win Championships. I'm Dan Bernstein. That's Penis Fly Trap. And he's just.

[B]

He's just mad at me because we had to. We had to restart the episode. See, I started shoving me already.

[A]

I'm just.

[B]

That was a full elbow.

[A]

It is not a full.

[B]

You want a full. You want a full elbow? I'd rather not.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You remember when you punched me in the face with your. With your wedding ring on when I was a kid?

[A]

It was an accident.

[B]

I don't think it was.

[A]

It was. It was an accident. It's like when I threw the ball at your face. That was an accident, too. The Bulls are 10 and 15.

[B]

Elmo Ice Pack activated.

[A]

Elmo Ice Pack. We have it.

[B]

Elmo Ice Pack.

[A]

The Bulls have an offensive rating that is 23rd of 30. A defensive rating, 25th of 30. A net rating 23rd minus 5. They can't stop anybody. And you know what I'm going to do? I think we have to do this at the outset here. I'm waiving our rule of no doom spiral. I'm waving it because I think it's gotten to the point where, if you're.

[B]

Just joining us, it's inconceivable to not doom spiral.

[A]

Oh, that makes me think of Rob Reiner. Why? That's why I said it. Dais. Okay. Well, it's sort of poignant to think that we think of that because of him. And you were raised on that movie, of course. Yeah, we were showing you that movie, like when you were.

[B]

And I didn't. I didn't really get it.

[A]

It took you.

[B]

Did you show it to me when I was six and seven?

[A]

It's over now.

[B]

No, it's not.

[A]

Joe Buck made a joke last night.

[B]

That means it's going to perpetuate even more.

[A]

It's over.

[B]

It's not.

[A]

It's over.

[B]

It's not over.

[A]

It's over. Be on the bleeding edge of the people who say it's over and find the next thing.

[B]

No, it's awesome.

[A]

Create your own thing, perhaps.

[B]

Yeah, just rage baiting you by saying six, seven. It's really fun. You are the easiest human being to rage bait in the entire world.

[A]

Where were we? The Bulls are bad. Worthy of big picture speculation once again. Even as much as we tried as a show to limit the amount of. Of. Of apocalyping their current situation relative to the future and the NBA and Where the stars are and what they're trying to do. I don't get it. I don't get it. We're going to talk about a trade rumor that I also don't get, but would make sense knowing the way that Arturis Karnashovas is. Has operated. It's too bad. It's too bad that this thing started out well. They were playing so damn hard, and then the league figured it out, and the league watched how the Bulls are winning, said, oh, oh, I see. They kind of are physical cowards and they don't have any rim protection, so we'll just attack them physically.

[B]

And they also started shooting better and what was it, 29% from 3. I think we knew that was going to happen.

[A]

Opponents, you mean?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And so when you combine that with dunking on everyone, then you have to collapse the entire defense and you leave an open corner.

[A]

3.

[B]

It's really not a recipe for success.

[A]

Especially if you're playing drop defense because your center can't defend. You have no choice. You only have one guy in Okoro who even occasionally is successful fighting over and beyond a screen.

[B]

He's great at that.

[A]

He's great at it, but you're switching everything.

[B]

And also the fact that we thought when they were six one, that Zach Collins coming back was going to make a big difference.

[A]

It would have. It could. I shouldn't say would. It could have it.

[B]

Absolutely. Tough guy on the team.

[A]

Zach Collins would have been at the time. And then everybody else got hurt. And then Kobe White was hurt again and Herta was hurt again and Iowa was hurt and a Coral was hurt. And Ever and Patrick had a couple games out. Williams missed some games. Jalen Smith was hurt. And when we're watching, Lachlan Ulbricht and Emmanuel Miller understood where they were losing those games, but the win over Charlotte.

[B]

Felt like a loss.

[A]

The law. Their second loss to the Pelicans. They lost at home to the Pelicans.

[B]

I think I bring voodoo with the Pelicans or something.

[A]

Doo doo is what you bring.

[B]

Oh, a lot of that this morning after Jason.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

You shouldn't have.

[A]

Stop.

[B]

You shouldn't have.

[A]

Just stop. You gotta know better. You just know better.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Exercise a little bit of judgment.

[B]

Oh, you're one to talk.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No, you're not.

[A]

Well, whatever. You got me in a bad mood now. How? I don't know. You just did.

[B]

I'm gonna mess with this guy.

[A]

Please stop. Just crash. Seriously, I'm not gonna let this happen.

[B]

Yeah, you are.

[A]

No, I'm not.

[B]

Yeah, you are.

[A]

No, I'm not. Stop, please. Nobody wants to listen to you rage bait me.

[B]

You're wrong. You're wrong.

[A]

I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna fall for it. It's. I'm just not. Part of it is thinking about the Bulls pisses me off because they have enough pieces on the roster that. Do they? No.

[B]

Exactly. Well, thank you. No, they don't.

[A]

They have enough piece on the roster to equip themselves better than they have to be more competitive.

[B]

I disagree because I think they have pieces, but not ones that go together. I think they're poorly built because they have no rim protection or toughness. I think they have a bunch of pieces that on some other teams where they aren't all together, coagulated into a dysfunctional system. I think that that could work. However, this particular group of guys, I.

[A]

Think the only tough guys on the.

[B]

Team right now are Collins, Herter and Tre Jones. And IO can Iowa IO as well. And Okoro, I guess is tough, but he's bad. It's just they don't have. They're not constructed properly. So you can have good pieces. I don't. I don't think the construction has been done well at all. And I. I really don't know what AK is trying to do at all.

[A]

It really hurt watching what Fears was doing.

[B]

I told you in the draft about this dude, man.

[A]

You know, it's one thing when Derek Queen was going off and I think. I know you're not a couple.

[B]

He had a couple nice passes.

[A]

I know you're not a huge fan of his. I know he's a. He's a popular.

[B]

I think. I think people will figure him out.

[A]

Well, Fears is the kind of guy like he's. He was. He was isolating against any bull when they kept switching, switching, switching. He said, oh, I've Boozelis on me. Oh, I've got Giddy on me. I've got Vuja. It just. There are too many guys right now who get their feet tangled up trying to stay in front of somebody for one dribble.

[B]

Jeremiah Fears first step is pretty. It's elite. He's in the NBA. No, but dad, it's elite. Okay, Give. Give credit where credit's due. He should be a college freshman right now. Let's just put that out there now. Yeah, he. He was born in October. October of 06.

[A]

Well, Cooper Flag is a 40 point game puts himself on the list of one of the greatest performances ever by an 18 year old in the NBA.

[B]

And people said that modest would be better than that.

[A]

Well, I didn't say modest would be better than that. No, no. And what he's doing is just. Is ridiculous. But the Bulls didn't want to tank for the opportunity to draft him, so.

[B]

They almost lucked into it. But the Mavericks got Instead of.

[A]

But right now, they've got a tank.

[B]

Have to.

[A]

You have to. You have to let V. Free vouch.

[B]

Free vouch.

[A]

He has done everything asked of him. He's been a good leader. He told this team everything it needed to hear. Nobody listened. And then when he was benched in favor of Collins, when. Last Friday against. Against Charlotte. He was cheering, he was supportive. He was the first guy up off the bench during timeouts. Reward vouch. By getting him out of here. Get him somewhere where he can go ring, chase or go. Feel like there are people around him who can minimize his deficiencies a little bit. I feel bad for him being stuck here. And after he said what he said, there isn't. There isn't much more that the coaching staff or anybody else can do with him. You made the deal for him. Nothing happened while he was here. Not through any fault of his own. I would love to see him get a fair shot somewhere else.

[B]

But.

[A]

But if we're going to talk about a possible trade, if the Bulls are somehow in the market for Damatis Sabonis.

[B]

Oh, yeah. I'm going to.

[A]

You're going to have to tell me why, what the plan is.

[B]

No, you don't even have to tell me. Because it's so bad.

[A]

What does he do for you?

[B]

Nothing. Is another bad defender. The Kings became the Bulls, and so the Bulls are like, oh, let's just become the Sacramento Kings.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

Next thing you know, Lavine and DeRozan will be back.

[A]

If this is an endless circle of activity where the Bulls become the Kings and the Kings become the Bulls and the Bulls become the Kings, then I'm out.

[B]

I might have to start rooting for New Orleans, even though that's just as tough.

[A]

Well, they've got dudes.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

Every other team does. Why is it that every other team has young talent? Every other team's got young talent.

[B]

There's only one guy on the Bulls right now that that classifies that. And it's not modest. It's Josh Giddy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because Giddy's still been great.

[A]

Well. And he's under contract.

[B]

He's under contract and 25 million a year for his function. That's right. Now, that's And I've talked about this, about not trading Modest. Kobe. Get rid of Kobe. White. Honestly, at this point, I don't know. I don't see that much All Star stuff from Modest. He'll have moments, he'll have flashes.

[A]

Because he's not an All Star.

[B]

Not right. I'm not saying right now. I'm saying in the future, too. Could he get there? Of course I think he's talented. I'd rather. I'd rather keep Giddy on this roster.

[A]

You can't. The way the NBA is, the way the NBA has always been, it's not baseball. You can't just throw around the term All Star like that. It is really hard. Like the trivia question you did last week.

[B]

Yeah. Like C.J. mcCollum two weeks ago. C.J. mcCollum wasn't. Was. Has never been an All Star.

[A]

The number of really good players who've never made an All Star team. You say Jamal Crawford never made an All Star team.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, yeah, but look at his career numbers.

[B]

Good players. Right.

[A]

But there are. If Modest is a good player from where he was drafted in that draft, that's a win. We just got to get All Star completely out of the conversation.

[B]

For him.

[A]

For him. Until proven otherwise. Unless there's a reason to, other than just stupid hope. Because there's nothing right now that suggests he's on an All Star trajectory. Fact, I don't see. It's. If he becomes a reliable player with a reliable three point shot, great. And then we'll see from there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It is hard to be an All Star. It means something in baseball. Anybody can be an All Star.

[B]

Wow, you are really taking that. That the elimination of the no doom spiraling to another level.

[A]

Well, you know, if we're gonna talk about it, let's talk about it. Because how many times, how many rebuilds of rebuilds of rebuilds? How many builds does AK get?

[B]

It's not even a rebuild. He's never said he. I feel like he's never said the word rebuild. It's always been a retool. You can't retool a team that has nothing in the toolbox. Except for Josh Giddy.

[A]

Josh Giddy was. That was a good trade to good signing. Yeah. I mean, call that what it is for both teams.

[B]

Yeah. Because my God, look at them.

[A]

But you finally got Patrick Williams playing hard. He was strong.

[B]

He was great.

[A]

Playing really hard. Playing physical and strong. And if you have him doing that.

[B]

Off the bench, trade him.

[A]

Well, you get a pick. The shame of it is that you figured Kobe White would return, be healthy enough to be dealt and he's gotten worse.

[B]

I would say he's gotten worse. And it's not like the thing where he's gotten older. It seems like he's playing like a first or second year player or not first year, but it seems like he's playing like where he was in 2022 and not where he has been the past two years.

[A]

I don't know if he's hurrying. I don't know if he's trying to make up too much after straining one calf and then straining the other calf.

[B]

Or it could just be trying to do. Or maybe they're asking him to do a lot because the team sucks, so they're asking him to do too much. Although it was a similar team last year and he looked better last year. But I don't know. It's a really dark time.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It's really bad.

[A]

It is. And if they do start dealing, don't deal for old veterans.

[B]

They will.

[A]

The d' Amata Sabonis, Daniel Tice. It doesn't. You need draft capital. You need to value draft capital.

[B]

They don't care.

[A]

You need first round picks. You need to play young guys and.

[B]

But a sengate hurt, so what good does it do?

[A]

Well, you can't do anything with him right now. I just.

[B]

The.

[A]

Every team the Bulls play has a couple of pieces, a couple of K. Even the Wizards when that second unit was in. And who was it? Cam Whitmore or some of these other guys when they. The Blazers. And when they play these other teams, there's guys.

[B]

Keante George and Kaishan on the Wizards.

[A]

Yes, there's guys. And for the Bulls it's Dalen Terry, he's that guy. And not enough. And. And Phillips, Julian Phillips, he's an explosive sudden live wire guy, but he's not good. He's not. These aren't. These aren't. The talent level just isn't there. I don't know. It's. It's. This is kind of a funky one because this hits at a. At a really, really dark time for the Bulls right now.

[B]

There really isn't even that much to go over.

[A]

Well, I don't. I've heard a lot of people say, get Billy Donovan out of here. This is not a Billy Donovan problem. It's not. It's. It's a roster construction problem right now.

[B]

Because Billy has made the most out of some mediocre rosters. I remember the bubble year that, that Thunder team with Chris Paul And Lou Dort's rookie year that that team was supposed to go. What I mean. And I think that that might have been Shea's first year with the Thunder, but he wasn't who he is now. And they, they were supposed to be terrible. And they made it all the way to the fifth seed and took the last Goodyear. James Harden on the Rockets and Russell Westbrook was on that Rockets team and they took him to I believe, seven games. And it came down to a final play where James Harden jumped over a ball that Lou Dort tried to throw off of him. I don't know if you remember this.

[A]

How do you remember all this?

[B]

Because I'm a psycho. But Billy Donovan has been known to take bleh teams and make them good. And that's hard to do in the NBA. That's more of a college thing.

[A]

He's got a high quality staff that's well respected around the league as well.

[B]

And I think, I think it's. I think it's roster construction. I think it all falls back on ak. I don't think it's the player's fault. And I, I honestly don't fault them for feel especially Vuch, but the entire team in general for feeling unmotivated with how the team's been playing recently. Group doesn't work. Just doesn't. And the thing about AK is he's gonna say retool. You can't retool when you have no tools. Well, there's no re. Tooling to be done. You got to get draft capital and they're not going to giddy. He's the only guy that you keep.

[A]

Might be an all star or a.

[B]

Future all Star, but he always is the only guy.

[A]

But it takes more that.

[B]

But he's the. I'm just saying in general, that's the only guy that if I'm Chicago, I'm saying, yeah, I'm not. I'm not letting him go unless there's some ridiculous deal that they're getting. Like, I don't know.

[A]

There's no.

[B]

But there's. There's no reasonable deal that would be out there for him on that. Just signed that contract and is playing really good basketball and he plays hard. I will say that he the worst defender I've ever seen. But he plays hard, he's tough. And everybody else just makes me annoyed watching them just pisses me off. Just put turn on the Bears game.

[A]

No, I get it. It does. It makes it sometimes make you mad because they're. And I will say that at least on the television.

[B]

I'd rather watch a G league game. I'd rather watch.

[A]

Oh, you would not rather watch a G league game?

[B]

It's more exciting. It's more fun to watch. My eyes are enjoying what I'm seeing.

[A]

No, not if you watch enough G League.

[B]

If someone were to offer, I would rather go to one G league game than watch the Bulls versus Hornet. If I knew the expected outcome of the Bulls Hornets game was. Was going to be what it was, I would have rather have watched a G league game.

[A]

All right. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna yuck your yum on that. I disagree.

[B]

You know, I love bombs, though.

[A]

I know you do. I would rather like just like your thing with kickers is all that you love the kicker carousel.

[B]

Yes. Blake Groupie. What a legend.

[A]

Who's the other guy? You like, Will? Not Will Lutz. There was some other.

[B]

He was too good.

[A]

Yeah, I know there was some other. Michael Badgley was the other guy.

[B]

No, not a big fan.

[A]

He's too reliable to be on your bum list.

[B]

Yeah, I like Jake Moody, you know, because high pick has a booming leg. And Joey Sly, I don't like the way he looks.

[A]

Okay, well, I. I don't know what the criteria vibes.

[B]

I don't know what kicker vibes. It's just vibes, man.

[A]

Okay. Sorry, man.

[B]

I'm. I'm trying to. I'm. I'm trying to think right now of kicker carousels.

[A]

Well, I'm trying to think of rim protectors who might eventually find their way here. And then I get depressed because, like, look, but you have to move resources to find one piece that doesn't.

[B]

Sorry, Joey Sly, by the way. Nothing personal.

[A]

That doesn't work. Well, maybe it is with you. I don't know that every time you think about them locking down a piece, something else moves or something else gets hurt.

[B]

Something else gets hurt.

[A]

And you just figure that you're further and further away because you're not.

[B]

From what are you further and further away?

[A]

Well, if we use their criteria, it's being. Sustaining a level of competitiveness which they don't really do. They don't really sustain competitiveness. They're not competitive for anything. If they make the play in again. Is that the goal now?

[B]

Where.

[A]

Where are we? Come out and talk. AK. Tell us what the goals are this season. What are we doing here, what. Why are we doing this, and what are we doing?

[B]

But he said the same thing every year for five years, so I don't trust him anymore. Get him out of the building. This point. Screw it. Fire everybody.

[A]

How have so many other teams done so much more and sometimes even with less like players that. That get better, that really do get better. They don't just have a good game here or there, they become better players.

[B]

Deontay George, he was what, like the 15th overall pick or something?

[A]

County George.

[B]

Tough.

[A]

And you better do it soon because there's other teams are not going to. Other teams are outstripping you on everything that they're doing. And if this is okay, I would love for Michael Reinsdorf to come out and say, this is what we want. This is fine.

[B]

We can sell out the arena even if we suck and we don't want to spend a lot of time on it because I'm lazy and stupid. Fine, just say it. No, I hope it's not maybe not stupid.

[A]

No, I don't think it's. I just, I'm not sure quite what the goal is and if they could move, if the Kobe White to Minnesota talk was a possibility, if that was.

[B]

A thing for what, DiVincenzo.

[A]

And I don't mean DiVincenzo is not really enough.

[B]

But I like Tara Shannon. I like. That's a young, athletic, sudden, strong player.

[A]

Is there a pick in there too?

[B]

I think it was like their first round pick in 2027 or something like that.

[A]

Okay, okay. That. That you can argue gets you closer to winning a title, I guess somehow. Now, speaking of.

[B]

And also, also, there was something that I want to mention. I don't remember which episode you said it in, but you said, as the Bulls organization in the United center, to have those six trophies up and have people look at it, and you have the Michael Jordan statue in the atrium and it's in the banners and it's Michael Jordan, you celebrate having the greatest or supposedly the greatest player of all time. Not in my opinion, but you have the. You have Michael Jordan. It's Michael Jordan. And as much as he's a meatball now going on NBC saying loads, management is stupid. God, he just. He just wants to. He's going to do this. And as soon as LeBron retires, he's like, yeah, I'm done. He just wants to make sure that LeBron doesn't take any. Take any of his greatness away from which he's not. It's just. He's just better. But you have those. That's neither here nor there. You look at those trophies that are in the stadium if that is that your goal. Because if it's not, take them away at this point.

[A]

That's how I feel about having him on the letterhead when they would have the gold embossed trophies.

[B]

Our logo, for Christ's sake. It's. It's a. It's a play on a trophy with the Bulls logo.

[A]

I don't think so. I think it's just a Bulls logo. No, but the name. Right.

[B]

No, it is a play. It's a Bulls logo turned into a trophy. It's really. Organizations win championships, get rid of everybody because this organization sucks. You heard it here. I don't know about first. You probably heard it a bunch of times, right?

[A]

It's on. It's really unfortunate that they suck so much but that after that start they.

[B]

Give me a team full of Javante greens.

[A]

Well, I think you'd be in trouble with that one to. Yeah.

[B]

At least they play hard.

[A]

Well, that's what a Coro is. A Coro is like a more talented.

[B]

But this. This gets us nowhere. Uhhuh.

[A]

Every other team comes in has got some giant rim protector that's swatting away all these little forays to the basket and then ate.

[B]

Ate them alive.

[A]

And the Bulls are.

[B]

Didn't even mention Trey Murphy. Like great player.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

Herb Jones, really good player that's probably going to be traded at the deadline because he's coming off the bench for a team that is starting their young players. Herb Jones is a great player and a. An all defensive team guy. All defensive team quality defender, 3 and D wing athletic. And he is coming off the bench because they are starting their two rookies with Zion Williamson in the starting lineup who came back and looked really good. It didn't miss a beat and he actually came back early from his timeline. They are starting their rookies and I'm not the biggest fan of Derek Queen but they're giving him an opportunity to learn. And I don't know if this is Borrego doing what he's doing. I don't know because they didn't. They didn't start. They didn't start their rookies at the beginning of the season. And so now that Briggers. And maybe just saying, look, we're not going anywhere this season. Let our young guys develop. Great. However, the problem is the Bulls don't have those guys. You could argue that Modest is one, but he's been getting the opportunity.

[A]

Mattis is still potentially a good player.

[B]

He's fine right now.

[A]

No, not compared to other regular. He's. He's. He's a. He's a.

[B]

Would you rather have Jeremiah fierce or modest Bouzelis right now.

[A]

Jeremiah fears.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That's easy.

[B]

Look at him. Two years younger.

[A]

He's two years younger, and he's cooking guys out there.

[B]

I'm telling you. He's Ja Moran.

[A]

They keep switching every screen.

[B]

John Moran, like, pre. Pre goofy.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if he's quite that athlete. He can't rise like that.

[B]

I don't know if he can.

[A]

He's quick.

[B]

He can jump, though.

[A]

Yeah, but not like that.

[B]

I think. I think he's end to end faster and better years right now. His shooting has improved so much as well.

[A]

Yeah, it just. It's. It almost seems like you.

[B]

The way the.

[A]

The amount of young talent that's out there right now, it almost seems like you have to try to avoid having some of these guys when every single team.

[B]

The.

[A]

When the Wizards have it and the teams that are trying to be bad next on the schedule, they keep. They keep coming at Cleveland's next on the schedule. Okay, well, you went through the easy part of your schedule schedule and got bone and you dribbled it down your leg that you. You had a shot here after you have to beat. You beat some good teams. You beat some playoff teams in the east, and everything was exciting. And then it was one injury here and one injury there, and somebody lets go of the rope, and then you don't have help on defense. You.

[B]

And then you barely beat the Wizards. And V tells them to, like, chill.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And nobody listens because they think they're good. Yeah.

[A]

They said, hey, stop celebrating because we should have lost this game. We had no business winning it. And nobody listened. And then you had to bench Vuch to try to stay in a game because he can't keep up with whoever it is on the other team. That is a versatile enough bid. But it's.

[B]

A lot of it isn't his fault because the Bulls aren't constructed properly around somebody like that. Granted, I don't think the Bulls should build themselves around Vucovic.

[A]

No, but.

[B]

Exactly. But. But I'm saying he needs to go to a place where, as you said, his deficiencies can be minimized. And. And there are teams out there for them. I think they could. That could use some veteran leadership and 18 points and 10 rebounds before we.

[A]

Get to the showdown. I just wanted to mention this. After the spurs beat Oklahoma City the other night and watching when they finally get Wemby back, he comes off the bench and he's absolutely brilliant and of course, alters time and space around him because he's, he's not really.

[B]

We can't. Well, that, that is one guy. We cannot say the Bulls like, oh, they, they don't have a guy. The spurs have Wemby. That's one dude where we can't, we can't do that.

[A]

So I got all excited because I saw the headline on a story from the defector, which they always do. They're great basketball stuff there. I think it was David Roth who wrote it and the headline was, the spurs gave the NBA a recipe for how to beat Oklahoma City. And I thought, oh, wow, this is going to be some in depth stuff.

[B]

No, you have Victor Wemban.

[A]

Right. And I click on it. And of course it's Roth saying one have one of the greatest and have a unique all time great NBA player.

[B]

All time, great all time talent.

[A]

Yeah. Playing at the top of his ability.

[B]

All time talent.

[A]

Something like that. And have him, and have him play angry because he was on one in that game. He was talking to people and he said that. Okay, that was number one.

[B]

Trained with Akeem over the off season.

[A]

Are you sure he didn't train, become a.

[B]

He became a monk.

[A]

He did not become a monk.

[B]

See? And he said I couldn't rage bait him.

[A]

He didn't become a monk.

[B]

You're either a monk or you're not a monk. You said I couldn't rage bait him.

[A]

You said he became a monk.

[B]

And he said I couldn't rage bait him.

[A]

He, he trained with them. He didn't become one.

[B]

I think he became a monk.

[A]

Okay, now I can tell you're, you're doing that.

[B]

No, I'm not.

[A]

And the other thing that he wrote is the recipe to beat me. Said play a perfect basketball game.

[B]

Well, which, yeah, the NBA is on the verge of getting boring. If Oklahoma City, if they stay healthy, they're winning the title. That's not even close.

[A]

Frankly, I don't like how that they're playing as hard as they're playing right now.

[B]

Doesn't matter. They're so deep.

[A]

I still, still, that stuff backfires on you. That's all fun and games until Shea's hurt.

[B]

You're not going to get hurt because he falls so much. He just flops all the time. He stays out of contact and he, and he, he doesn't get touched. And he gets to the line 15 times a night and people, people get upset about him. They're like, oh, he's a free throw merchant. He plays unethical basketball. Hey, man, gets a line. Get your points.

[A]

Foul's a foul.

[B]

Foul's a foul. If they. If they're calling it. If you're getting star calls, take advantage.

[A]

They used to say it about the way Shaquille o' Neal was officiated. He just didn't hit his free throws.

[B]

Well, that was hack a shack. That was a little different. They fouled him on.

[A]

Well, eventually it was. But before it was the fact that he would be know running into people and they couldn't stand their ground. They said, what's a block? What's a charge? I think SI had a. Actually a cover issue.

[B]

All right, this. This is. This is not. Whatever. I. I gotta go soon.

[A]

Well, sorry. Jeez.

[B]

I do have to go soon.

[A]

All right, guys. You're annoying.

[B]

What the hell did I do?

[A]

You. I don't know. You just pissed me off. Time for these showdown.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Kawhi Leonard, when he joined the Clippers was the winningest player.

[B]

Just. I'm looking this way because your phone is bleeding.

[A]

He was. Kawhi Leonard, when he joined the Clippers was the winningest player. Player in NBA history by percentage with a minimum of 300 games played, including playoffs.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. That's the criteria. Minimum 300, including playoffs. Kawhi Leonard now is outside the top 10.

[B]

Okay, interesting.

[A]

In the top 10, there is one active player.

[B]

Jokic.

[A]

No.

[B]

Luca?

[A]

No.

[B]

LeBron?

[A]

No.

[B]

Curry? Durant. No.

[A]

No.

[B]

Does he play in the playoffs a lot?

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

Yes. Harden?

[A]

No.

[B]

Klay? Thompson.

[A]

No. No. If you do it this way, it's going to be a while. You're not even close.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I would tell you is think we hear the top 10 of all time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Winning percentage, including playoffs. Use your head. Who are we. Who are we talking about here?

[B]

It doesn't necessarily have to be a star, though. That's what I'm thinking.

[A]

Ah, very good.

[B]

Robert Ori.

[A]

No.

[B]

Guys that have been on winning teams for a lot of their career. Like I'm trying to think of guys that were on the Warriors. Iguodala, not the Warriors.

[A]

They're actually. There is nobody from Jordan. No.

[B]

Okay, you're just being. You're just being rude.

[A]

I'm not being rude. I'm being loud, but I'm not being rude.

[B]

Now you're being rude.

[A]

Are you going to give me. I'll give you all the others and you get number three.

[B]

No, because. No.

[A]

He's number three all time.

[B]

The current player.

[A]

The current player.

[B]

Tatum. No. Is he old? No, he's young. Yep. Has he won a title yet?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Young is in under 30 currently.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I said Shea.

[A]

It's not Shay.

[B]

Was he a Finals mvp? No. Somebody that's. Has he been on different teams? No. Same team his whole career.

[A]

Well, in the NBA.

[B]

Yes. That's what I'm.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What do you mean in the NBA?

[A]

Because he played in the G League.

[B]

Siakam.

[A]

No.

[B]

Hardenstein?

[A]

No. It's a good question. Okay, let me give you the others.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Number one all time is Magic Johnson. All right, Number two is Michael Cooper.

[B]

Robert Parish.

[A]

Number four is Casey Jones. Number five is Tommy Hindson. Number six is Larry Bird. Number seven is Sam Jones. Notice something in common here. Number eight is. Number eight is Bill Russell.

[B]

Bob Koozie.

[A]

Number nine is Tim Duncan. Number ten is Manu Ginobili.

[B]

So he. This. The current. The current guy is under 30 and Giannis hasn't been on different teams. He's won a title.

[A]

You said you're in the wrong. What do you mean wrong?

[B]

Stratosphere.

[A]

You're naming stars.

[B]

He's not. Okay. He's not a star.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

He's been on different teams.

[A]

Not a Finals mvp, not a different NBA team.

[B]

You said he was.

[A]

I said he was in the G League. He was undrafted.

[B]

You me off a lot.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Lou Dort?

[A]

No.

[B]

Undrafted. Was he a two way guy ever?

[A]

Yeah, he started out as a two way guy and then his contract was made into regular contract.

[B]

Is he a good player?

[A]

He's got one certain skill that makes him very, very, very, very valuable.

[B]

Three point shooting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is he a white guy?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's not A.J. green. No.

[A]

But now, now you're talking.

[B]

White guy that can shoot the piss out of the ball. That was in the G League. He's been on.

[A]

And there's a run here, going up from eight, Russell Jones, Bird, Heinson. Even though they.

[B]

I'm trying to think of guys that have been on consistently. Is he on Denver?

[A]

No. Listen to me. Russell Jones, Bird Heinson, Casey Jones and this guy.

[B]

Sam Houser.

[A]

Yes, Sam Houser.

[B]

Well, I mean, okay, that is a stupid, misleading clue. Like, oh, Celtics are in the top 10. That is so misleading because it's different eras.

[A]

Is he a Celtic or not?

[B]

He is a Celtic.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

But it's misleading. It doesn't matter.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Yeah, you're welcome, ass face.

[A]

Here's my favorite part. Look at the silhouette for Tommy Hindson.

[B]

Yeah. It's the same for Casey Jones. Yeah.

[A]

But there's a thing Larry Birds isn't Housers isn't that they do that a lot.

[B]

That's stat Muse. You don't know ball?

[A]

No, I just thought they would have, like, a white guy run for Tommy Hindson.

[B]

But what I was going to say is. You can't just say because they were on the Celtics, it means that Sam Houser.

[A]

They did Larry.

[B]

Okay, shut up. Larry Bird and Sam Houser did not play at the same time.

[A]

Larry Bird and Tommy Hindson didn't play at the same time.

[B]

I don't. I've never even heard of Tommy Hyson.

[A]

You never heard of Tommy Hindson?

[B]

Fuck no.

[A]

All right, well, what's your question? Jesus Christ. You're such a loser.

[B]

You give bad hints. Bad hints.

[A]

You're such a turd. What's your question?

[B]

All right. Can you name the four players that had at least 125 steals last season?

[A]

Dyson Daniels.

[B]

He had 229.

[A]

Did he really?

[B]

The next person had 131.

[A]

He had 229 steals. That's ridiculous. Holy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah. The only guy in the past, I think, 10 years or something, that's.

[A]

How about the good. Thompson? Azar.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

Amin. Thompson?

[B]

Nope. The good one is.

[A]

Amin's a good one. He didn't.

[B]

Nope. Neither one of them.

[A]

Neither one had. How many did you say?

[B]

125. Only four players.

[A]

125 steals. Did Shea.

[B]

Yep. 131. He was second. Because you got to think of guys that play a lot of minutes.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I'm trying to think of guys who are around the ball, play a lot of minutes. That's why Caruso.

[B]

Nope. Didn't play enough.

[A]

Yeah, but he gets a lot of steals per. Per minute or per 40 minutes.

[B]

Per capita.

[A]

Not per capita. He is a capita. Is there another Thunder?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Ludor, I think, was close.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say because they get so many. How about bam on a bio?

[B]

Nope. I'll say this. One of them is known as, like, a defensive specialist. The other guy is not.

[A]

How about Tyrese Maxey?

[B]

Nope. One of them just.

[A]

Brunson.

[B]

Nope. One of them is just a really, really, really, really good player, to say the least. The other one is known to be a defensive guy. Known to be. And a very, very surprising name. I did not expect it.

[A]

So it's probably a big while.

[B]

The great player that is there is a big.

[A]

Is it Gobert?

[B]

No. The great player that is on this list is a big. The other one that is a defensive list is not.

[A]

Is it Yoga?

[B]

It's not.

[A]

Is Jokic.

[B]

Okay, so Jokic. And then the other one is a defensive specialist who is a guard.

[A]

I give up.

[B]

Chris Dun.

[A]

Really?

[B]

128.

[A]

Well, good for him.

[B]

Think about those other names, though.

[A]

That number from Dyson Daniels. Where does that rank all the. All time?

[B]

I don't. I don't know.

[A]

That's got to be there with, like. I'm trying to think, like, Mo Cheeks. Like there's some of the. The great thieves that we've had.

[B]

I'm late for work.

[A]

I don't. I don't want you late for work.

[B]

All right, well, it's too late for that.

[A]

Well, that has been episode 123 of Organizations Win Championships. By the time we reconvene, things will look better in the Bulls world. We will not doom spiral. We'll be back.

[B]

That's just not true.

[A]

Well, I'm saying it sounds good to say it.

[B]

We could say it.

[A]

I don't know what it means, but we can say it.

[B]

And the Bulls are screwed. And hopefully this guy keep. I can keep rage baiting him because he's a loser.

[A]

Tip his chair over.

[B]

Quit it.

[A]

Ow.

[B]

I almost hurt myself.

[A]

I almost pulled a muscle doing that. That'd be bad.

[B]

All right.

[A]

That is owc. He's still gonna be home for like a month. We'll get you next time.

[B]

Yeah, I wanna go back. Organizations win championships.

[A]

A Chicago Bulls podcast with Jason and.

[B]

Dan Bernstein on 312Sports.