Chicago Cubs: It's a SLUMP, not a COLLAPSE - Don't Panic.

Summary

Dan Bernstein Unfiltered – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Chicago Cubs: It’s a SLUMP, not a COLLAPSE – Don’t Panic

Podcast: Dan Bernstein Unfiltered
Host: Dan Bernstein (with longtime producer Matt Abbatacola)
Date: May 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode is classic “Bernstein Unfiltered” – sharp opinions and deep analysis on the suddenly slumping Chicago Cubs. Dan breaks down why the Cubs’ struggles are a normal baseball slump, not a franchise collapse, and urges fans (and the team) not to panic. He gets into the psyche of Cubs fans, the team’s inner workings, and why playing the long game is essential. Later, the show pivots into wide-ranging topics, from NBA playoffs banter to somber reflections on NASCAR driver Kyle Busch’s death, and closes with humorous takes on everyday irritations. The tone is direct, sardonic, and conversational, with Matt chiming in to ground the talk.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Cubs Slump: Not a Collapse – Perspective and Patience

Timestamps: [01:49]–[15:42]

• Fan Anxiety & Superstition: Dan confesses to feeling powerless and superstitious as a fan during losing streaks, joking about the “cosmic balance of baseball.”

  • “Every time I look at my phone, if I turn off my phone and I turn on my phone now the score is going to be different. We all get in our head and start playing games... but some of this stuff is just baseball.” [02:52]

• Advice Against Panic: Bernstein repeatedly insists that both fans and the Cubs should resist knee-jerk reactions. Don’t overreact with lineup changes or punitive roster moves.

  • “You cannot send any message of panic, even if there may be reason for panic.” [03:41]
  • “You can't go crazy, and you can't start saying you're benched and you're cut and you're traded and you're sent down and you're DFA’d. That’s gonna make everybody feel like, whoa, whoa, whoa, they’re scared.” [04:53]

• Craig Counsell’s Leadership: The hosts agree that Cubs manager Counsell is not a “gimmick” guy and that a Joe Maddon-style clubhouse distraction wouldn’t be his style.

  • Matt: “He’s not that kind of manager...It wouldn’t fit his personality. And if he tried to do something, it wouldn’t come across as genuine or real or sincere.” [06:37]

• The Bregman Problem: The main underperformer named is Alex Bregman—discussed as the one expensive “fix” that hasn’t panned out yet.

  • Matt: “The big signing they brought in this year...is just not even close to what you were hoping he would be. Is it just a matter of course correction?” [06:47]

• Perspective on Slumps: Dan urges fans to expect stretches like this, even for good teams. He wants the organization to analyze the numbers and “work the problem,” not resort to fatalism.

  • “It’s not very unlikely that a really good team plays a stretch of bad baseball.” [13:36]
  • “It could be the smallest thing that somebody sees...all it takes is that kind of curiosity in the data.” [12:54]

Notable Quotes

• “There’s something in there. I can’t tell you what it is...A lot of their problems and a lot of these numbers have some choke in them.” – Dan Bernstein [05:54]
• “Nobody wants it more than they do. They are feeling it more than you are. Way more.” – Dan Bernstein [11:15]
• “You never know. It could be the smallest thing that somebody sees...But I think that’s really the job right now...That’s not panicking. That’s the work of Major League Baseball.” – Dan Bernstein [12:54]

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2. NBA Playoffs & The Marvel of Wembanyama

Timestamps: [18:05]–[31:21]

• Western Conference Finals Analysis: Dan is in awe at the level of intensity, calling it “basketball crack cocaine.” He fixates on Victor Wembanyama’s freakish talent.

  • “He’s playing like college hallway, college dorm room, Nerf hoop in the NBA.” [18:52]

• Nuanced Basketball Takes: Dan discusses modern shot selection, defensive strategies, and the way team defense resembles “hockey” at times.

• Knicks & Playoff Injuries: Unfiltered takes on the Knicks’ fanbase and playoff injuries—arguing that modern rest and load management mean fewer excuses when the Finals roll around.

• Referee Nostalgia: Bernstein fondly recalls knowing current NBA referees from his younger days in the CBA, and lauds the current playoff officiating.

Notable Quotes

• “You’re going to have a very difficult time not giving Wemby the MVP award. Like from here on in.” – Dan Bernstein [18:28]
• “He essentially reduced the game to Nerf hoop.” – Dan Bernstein [18:52]

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3. Lessons from the Kyle Busch Tragedy: Health, Pressure, and Vulnerability in Sports

Timestamps: [31:21]–[50:34]

• Busch’s Death as a Teachable Moment: Dan, after consulting doctors, explores how “playing through pain” and fear of job loss can be deadly—especially in NASCAR, with less institutional support.

  • “Otherwise healthy 41-year-old man should not have severe pneumonia progress into sepsis. It should be interrupted. And this wasn’t.” [31:42]
  • “There's no shortage of drivers that would love to take my seat or anybody else's seat if we weren't feeling well. And I think every driver feels that pressure.” (Brad Keselowski quote) [34:59]

• Contrast with Other Sports: In MLB, NBA, or soccer, this would “get interrupted,” because their systems have more checks and collective protections.

• Male Denial & Health: Bernstein talks about how men, especially in sports, ignore symptoms until it's too late.

  • “There is a gigantic gene of denial and disbelief and I’m superhuman. It kills people every day.” (doctor’s comment) [38:38]

• Takeaways: Put care before bravado. He calls for advocacy within NASCAR for health protocols, not blame.

Notable Quotes

• “Don’t out-tough bacteria. It doesn’t care how tough you are.” – Dan Bernstein [46:25]
• “If this is a real fear—that’s terrifying.” – Dan Bernstein [35:58]

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4. Seinfeldian Rants & Everyday Annoyances

Timestamps: [50:34]–[65:01]

• “Support Local Hunger” at the Grocery Store: Dan riffs hilariously on awkward donation prompts at card readers, dissecting their phrasing.

  • “No, I'm against local hunger. Why would I support it? Local, national, global, hyper-local. I don't want any hunger.” – Dan Bernstein [53:06]
  • Matt: “How very George Carlin of you.” [53:21]

• Societal Observations:

  • On using motorized shopping carts (“just because you drive one around doesn’t give you the right to be an …” – Matt [58:00])
  • On running into fans at Dick’s Sporting Goods buying fishing lures – always “on brand” for Dan [59:19]

• Random Live Moment: Dan finds a tick crawling on him in the studio, recounts outdoor exploits and why check for ticks matters.

  • “This has been somewhere... This guy could have been in my car... But how cool is that?” – Dan [64:02]

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5. Recommended Bets (“DBU Picks”)

Timestamps: [61:30]–[63:22]

• Dan’s NBA picks: Spurs’ Devin Vassell (3+ threes), Thunder’s Jared McCain (2+ threes)
• Matt’s pick: OKC -4.5 over the Spurs

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Memorable Moments & Quotes with Timestamps

• “Some of the stuff that goes on in a streak like this … even when there’s a lead, you can’t…” – Dan Bernstein, on watching Cubs games as a fan [01:49]
• “The opposite of clutch is choke: not being able to be yourself when it matters.” – Dan Bernstein [05:40]
• “Basketball crack cocaine.” – Dan Bernstein on Western Conference Finals [18:05]
• “You never know. It could be the smallest little thing that somebody sees. It could be the smallest little.” [12:54]
• “Don’t out tough bacteria. It doesn’t care how tough you are.” – Dan Bernstein [46:25]

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Key Takeaways

• For Cubs Fans: This is a slump, not a collapse. Avoid panic and reactionary moves; trust in sound leadership and methodical problem-solving. The Cubs’ issues are real but likely temporary and not due to lack of desire from the team.
• Sports Culture: The pressure to “play through the pain,” especially with little job security, remains dangerous; the Kyle Busch incident is a sobering reminder.
• Life Lessons: Listen to your body; don’t let machismo get in the way of health. And sometimes, life (and baseball) is just random.
• Humor as Therapy: From annoying grocery prompts to ticks in the studio, Bernstein’s rants offer comic relief and remind fans to keep perspective.

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Further Listening

• For Bernstein’s daily sharp takes, check out new episodes every weekday morning on 312 Sports.

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End of Summary.

Transcript

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[Dan Bernstein]

I came into this topic thinking that probably wasn't anything there, there. I can now definitively say that there's something there.

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[Dan Bernstein]

Dan Bernstein Unfiltered Unfiltered on 312Sports

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

DBU

[Dan Bernstein]

on 312 brought to you in partnership with my bookie the Cubs must ride out this storm and it sucks. But I don't really think there's another choice right now. And I keep asking myself above and beyond how I feel as a fan. And we all know how we feel watching the games and it. It hurts and it sucks and it's annoying and it is. You have to admit, it's getting funny. And I don't want to say they're fun bad because they're not. The Cubs aren't bad, so they're certainly not fun bad. But some of the stuff that goes on in a streak like this, some of the. Oh come on. Some of those moments are starting to pile up A little bit where you just, even when there's a lead, you can't. And then I started to think, am I at fault? And you know, when I, because every time I open the app, even when I'm out, when I'm, when I, when I'm watching, when I'm not watching, like, well, if I were watching, that wouldn't happen. Well, if I were listening, that would have happened. Well, if I had stopped. And every time I look at my phone, if I turn off my phone and I turn on my phone now that, now the score is going to be different. We all get in our head and we all start playing games there about the, the cosmic balance of baseball. But some of this stuff is, is just baseball. And this is why you've got on sort of multiple tracks here, different things going on, where the best possible response at the moment is less is more. You cannot, you cannot send any message of panic, even if there may be reason for panic. And the reasons for panic would be miscalculations about certain players who just aren't what you thought they were. And for the most part, I think the Cubs know their roster really well. I think they know what they're missing, pitching wise. I think they put this thing together with an understanding of the ideas to get on base, give yourself a ton of chances, hope you're going to hit a hit, one or two out here and there, you know, add up enough power, however, you're going to get power. And that's a huge calculation that teams make. So teams will say, especially the Cubs, they sit down every year and say, what is the ball doing? What are the wind currents? How is Wrigley playing? Because we know it's two ballparks. Essentially it's a very, very hitter friendly park and then it's a very pitcher friendly park depending on wind currents. And there've been a lot of north winds this year. And then they've got to go in and see, you know, where, where are our runs coming from and how are we going to prevent runs and how do we win games. It's all kind of broken in this particular stretch. But you cannot start panicking as much as you want them to. Different lineups every game. You know, I, I would not, and this is going to sound weird coming from me, but even as they ride it out, I would not have minded a Joe Madden style, get them out of their heads with something silly. I still think that there's, there's room for that sometimes where the players come in and what would, what would Joe do he had a petting zoo out in left field or he had a mentalist or a magician there. You can't go crazy, and you can't start saying you're benched and you're cut and you're traded and you're sent down and you're DFA'd. And that's gonna make everybody feel like, whoa, whoa, whoa, they're scared. This sucks. They're scared. But I wouldn't mind a little distractive management at this point, because for everybody to be this chokey tells me that there's, There's. There's something in there. I can't tell you what it is. My. My mind doesn't work that way. I can't pin it down. But a lot of their problems and a lot of these numbers have some choke in them. And when I say choke, it's sort of the inverse definition of clutch. If clutch is being yourself when it matters, where you're never going to be better than yourself, but you can just be who you are when it matters, always being who you are, if that's your definition of clutch, the opposite of which is joke of not being able to be yourself when it matters. And there's some of that in here.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Yeah. A couple things real, real quick. When it comes to Craig Counsel, he's not that kind of manager that's going to do baseball distracting things.

[Dan Bernstein]

No, I know. It wouldn't fit my personality.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

It wouldn't fit his personality. And I think if he tried to do something, it wouldn't come across as genuine or real or sincere. And I think he's doing what he needs to do. As far as talking about players that aren't hitting the projections or expectations, it's really only one player you're talking about. And it's. It's. It's Alex Bregman. That's the guy that they. That's the big signing that they. They brought in this year, who is just not even close to what you were hoping he would be. Now, is it just a matter of course correction? Like, for a lot of these guys, you talk about being who you are. When several of these regulars, regular, everyday players start playing more like who they are, the numbers are going to rebound significantly because they're performing so far below who they are as players right now. And that's expected to happen. It's just unfortunate that it's happening to everyone all at the same time.

[Dan Bernstein]

And this is what makes these historic losing streaks. Nobody saw it coming. No one expected that. The entire context and how we look at the Cubs could be altered this quickly, but everybody's whipsawed right now. Everybody is reeling, including the Cubs themselves. But. And I keep thinking, if I were Craig Counsel, what would I be doing? And the answer is riding out the storm. It's going to stop. They're going to win games. They have to keep approaching every plate appearance and every pitch with the same mentality. And let baseball be baseball. Be who you are. As difficult as it can be, everybody feels it. No one. You can't pretend anything. You can't ignore what's happening. You have to confront it. You have to talk about it. You have to demystify it. I think it's a big part of it. I definitely think Gallo's humor in the moment is something that can really help. I've always thought, I mean, that's. I have no choice. That's just the way I'm wired. But I do think that there is a way to acknowledge that, yeah, we're bad and this sucks, but to overreact I think would be a mistake. I think you ride it out and this is important. You hope to emerge the better for it, that if you're writing the narrative, and you can write your own narrative here and choose your own adventure, the one you want is, I'll be damned. This team started out that hot and then they got kicked in the teeth and everybody thought they were a fraud, but they emerged and they realized that they could go through something like that and still be okay. And it makes them feel impervious. Kind of a superhero origin story angle. And that's wishful thinking. That's just looking at best case scenario. But you do. You don't have a choice. You can tinker on the margins of the roster, but your commitment to Alex Bregman, that was that. That was right there. You. You vetted that. All of these statistical comps for decline or collapse were examined. I do not think any mistake in a Bregman signing was due to lack of awareness of what the risks were, but it was looking at what the minimums would be, what the floor would be, and then hoping some of that over time could be made up by the rise of other players. And I still think they believe in that. So that would be my. My, It's. It's not satisfying because you want to say if they do this or if they do that, and if, if we keep trying to figure things out or keep messing with the lineup. The baseball history is littered with teams that, that panicked, that did too much, and I'm sure everything is being discussed. I also don't think, and I, and this is something I keep hearing that really bothers me about the. How it looks and how it makes you feel as a fan, where you feel that they don't, they don't want it enough. Nobody wants it more than they do. They are feeling it more than you are. Way more. Way more. This is their livelihood. It's their job. It's what they do and in some cases, who they are. So what I hate is like, they don't, they don't want it. They're not showing enough emotion that a lot of that old stuff you. I know you've got no choice but take all of that energy and go see what you can find in the numbers and in the statcast data. Crowdsource this instead of, instead of just being mad at them. See if you can do the work. That's what the, what all of their smartest people are doing. You need your best and brightest on this right now, and you need your best and brightest answering some of the question about why did everybody hit this at the same time? What is in common with an approach? What is in common with how we're being pitched? What can we learn? How can we respond? Get the data. Get the data. Get the data. We've got everything. We know every vector of every ball, every impact with a bat, every spin as it leaves the pitcher's hand, where every seam is, where everything goes, every wind current. Get the data. Keep working. Work the problem. Work the problem. It's not fate. We always, we talk a lot about the baseball gods and there's some of that. There's a lot of stuff you cannot control, but to just throw your arms up fatalistically, help. That's baseball. And it's. Well, the players, the manager, the fans. While you can ride this thing out and hope that this, this Cubs ship comes out of this storm, everybody else grind, work the problem. You never know. It could be the smallest thing that somebody sees. It could be the smallest little. All it takes is that kind of curiosity in the data. Some people have brains where they can just see a screen full of numbers and something will appear and something will just look interesting. Why is that interesting? And then you keep working it and you keep working it and you never know what you're going to find. But I think that's really the job right now is if you. That's not panicking. That's the work of, of Major League Baseball. What don't we know? What don't we know about how we're being approached, how we're being pitched, the swings that we're taking, the pitches that we're choosing, when it feels like everything is going against us. It's not magic. There's a lot of randomness and there's a lot of noise in the data. But I want them. I want them, I want their best and brightest working the problem. And then, well, there should be calmer seas somewhere soon. And if, if we're, if this is a historic one off, if this is a switch being flipped and all of a sudden a great team turned bad, then that would be a baseball lesson or, and baseball history and something that ends up being taught at baseball college. I don't know. It just, it's, it's very, very unlikely that a really good team becomes a really bad team. It's not very unlikely that a really good team plays a stretch of bad baseball. So I think that's where we are. But there is still possibility to keep, keep grinding away. Keep having the best information that you have possible and mine that information for answers. Because worrying about magic or curses or slump busters or all that stuff is, is trying to do things. You trying to control things because of desperation. And you don't want to act out of desperation. You want to act methodically. It's hard to do because fans are fanatics and we don't think rationally. So you need your rational thinkers coming up with a lot of, a lot of good ideas here. How optimistic am I? Guardedly. So

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[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I think.

[Dan Bernstein]

Did I. I think I used this phrase before about the Western Conference finals where it's, it's. It's basketball crack cocaine. It is. So there are so many things that happen in these Western Conference finals that are just astonishing. They're just watching the quality of play, the intensity of play, the amount of people out there, even with some of the injuries is. I've never seen anything like this. And seeing the. An emerging star in Victor Wembanyama, every single game is going to do something that you've never seen before and you're going to realize that you're going to be seeing a lot of. Because that's as good as SGA is. You're going to have a very difficult time not giving Wemby the MVP award. Like from here on in. I don't. I don't know how you can affect a game more than a guy who looks like he. He actually looks like. Remember when we did the data Weeks ago about the guy who did the modeling that essentially shows that Wemby is playing the game on an 8 foot rim compared to an average NBA player, not an average person compared to an average NBA player. The way he moves the ground he covers, the size, the reach, the quickness, he is essentially, he essentially reduced the game to Nerf hoop. He's playing like college hallway, college dorm room, Nerf hoop in the NBA. And you saw it with that half court shot the other night. You saw it. He's calling for the ball. He gets it well short of half court and shoots a jumper. Not a heave, not one of those little two hand back spinning, not a throw. And I, it's been done before. I mean, LeBron can do that too. There are other guys who can do that. But to just, just a flick of the wrist, that's a real shot. That, that's, that's. See the rim, shoot the ball. It just so happens he's standing, he's, he's at the back of his dorm room behind the bunk bed, sitting in the, in the window. Well, and then he makes the shot and everybody has to drink. I, maybe I'm the only one that did, you know, drinking Nerf hoop trick shots. But that is what he's doing. We haven't seen. There's all kinds of comps and I read, look, you know, my guy, I love, I love Sully. Paul Sullivan of the Tribune, he wrote something over the weekend where he's, he's mystified that Victor Wembanyama hasn't learned the Kareem Abdul Jabbar skyhook yet. And he said that it's the unstoppable shot. And he could shoot it every time and he could make it every time. I thought he could. But why not? Why not shoot the three? Like that's, that's great. If you want to. The thing about the skyhook and we, we, we romanticize it and make it nostalgic, it's still a contested two. It's, it's a great worst shot, but it's still the, the worst shot in basketball is the contested two. And it's a famous version of it, but we know better now that you'd rather have the guy that can shoot a three from anywhere shoot the shot that's worth three points. So I, they're playing so hard and my God, the, the. When you have everyone on your team protecting the rim. Look, well, eating rim. The amount of rim that was getting protected in that last game where everybody's. It's all. They're playing like hockey the way they protect the go. I was watching that last night, too, because. Because Beth is a huge Montreal Canadiens fan now. You don't even want to know why. It's because Shane Hollander in heated rivalry played for Montreal. That is actually why. So she's decided that. And she misses rooting for hockey. She just likes rooting for hockey teams. So she, you know, we're watching overtime last night and I just like, honey, they're. They're spitting out turnovers like pizzas out there. You know, they're losing this game. No, they're not. Two seconds later, me. So they're. They deserve to lose that game last night. But the way that they're protecting the goal in basketball, everybody on. There's always somebody there. There's always somebody there. It is unbelievable how these teams are coached to always protect the rim. It may not be your primary responsibility, but it is a. An absolute team effort that it doesn't ever go unguarded, even if you have to take a foul out there. Why aren't you talking about the Knicks? Weren't you talking about the Knicks? I did it in the wrong voice. Knicks fans again. Knicks fans are. This is what somebody told me. This is the opposite of what George Carlin said. He says, I like humans. I hate humanity. Or I like individual persons, I hate people. For me, it's the opposite with Knicks fans. Knicks fans individually are insufferable as a group. They're awesome. They're fantastic as a group. And poor Dan Gilbert there, the piss aunt that put all of his fans on buses and sent them to Detroit. And then he's like, well, he's mad at all the Knicks fans taunting him for getting swept, and he gets up and leaves early. Good for the goose and good for the gander. Beat your ass. You went out and got James Harden to win a playoff series, and then you might have lost the playoff series because you have James Harden bad. The Knicks are not going to be as good as either one of the teams they're going to face in the finals. And the Western Conference representative is going to be heavily favored. But they've got a chance because of the rest. The Knicks are going to have a chance here to, to get healthy and. And be the best version of themselves for this series. And I don't have the same kind of sympathy for an injured team in the NBA Finals that I used to when. And nobody remembers this because nobody cares, but when the Bulls were winning that first title and Magic was a Little gimpy and Worthy was hurt and not playing. You don't remember that. Nobody cares. Nobody remembers who they have and who they don't and who's, who's on their last legs and who we find out afterwards. Well, he had this and he had that. But with the rest now with the understanding of taking games off, of load management, of watching minutes, that's why you're doing that is for the Finals really, because the season's long. That's why you do it. So if you're having injury problems now I know that there's sprained ankles, there's, there's weird things that happen. There's, there's stuff that is acute rather than chronic where it's, it has nothing to do with wear and tear. And maybe that's the case with Dylan Harper and a hamstring or J Dub on the other side that it isn't anything you mismanaged. But hey, this is, this is when you've got enough season to have your bench guys prepared. You got your rotation set, you have been able to rest people to the, the, the dismay of some fans throughout the season perhaps. So no excuses here. I do think that the, that both Western Conference teams have a big advantage, but this is going to be a very, very well watched finals. I don't want the Western Conference finals to end. I don't need to see the Knicks. Sorry, I just, I don't, I don't need to. I just, I love watching these two teams play, watching the styles, watching the, the adjustments that are made defensively, watching. Are we going to guard Hartenstein? Are we going to let him shoot that, that hierarching left handed flip shot that always seems to swish. And after he hits four of them, are we going to guard him? Okay, well now what? I would start the game not guarding him and let him keep hitting those. Let's, let's see that. Keep going. If you want to, if you want to beat me with Isaiah Hartenstein, 15 foot teardrops tip my cap to you. I'm just having an absolute blast. I'm watching the work that's that Castle is doing on sga. He took it to him, man. And they are, they're really bothering sga and some of the flopping is still working and some of the stumbling and the tripping and all the stuff that they do, they do get annoying to watch. There's a lot of that. But it's, it's the rules of the game. They, they oversell a lot of contact. I, I think all these referees and, you know, and all the referees that have been involved are all my guys, all my old CBA dudes, the guys who were making their bones coming up in the ranks in the CBA when I was there. If you notice all these crews. Jimmy Capers, Chicago's own, by the way, James Capers Jr. Tony Brothers, Scott Foster. All. All guys we're all around. I think. I think Scott and I are probably. He's a little older than I am. Most guys are a little older than I am because I was pretty young in cba. But those guys were doing the same Grand Rapids, Rockford Lightning games, you know, Yakima Sun Kings, Rockford Lightning, flying on the same crappy planes all at the same time. James Capers, Tony Brothers, Scott Foster, they're all crewing these games. I mean, Zach Zarb is really good, too. There's. There's a lot of the. We're down to the good referees, and they're doing a very, very good job allowing physical play. Oh, when Reggie Miller, who's. Who's grown on me a lot. Reggie. Reggie Miller, some of his reactions when he's marveling at Wemby, when he's loving all the pushing and shoving and elbowing and physicality that's going on, guys, because you know where the screens are now. You know, in an NBA playoff series, this is what it. This is when you say, well, that's. That won't fly in the playoffs. That won't fly in the playoffs. This is why this. This is why when you in the backyard, you've been running into the same 45 degree angled back screen and you know, that big. Standing there again, and you don't want to run into him again, but here comes Hartenstein or he, you know, here. Here's homegrown again. And Wemby. Wemby's getting held and grabbed around the neck and all of the fighting that's going on there, you just get sick of it. And watching them deal with it and watching them. No. Okay. All right, I see. I guess we're doing that today. I guess we're in for one of these and not backing down. And they're not letting SGA wear them down because Castle has been on both ends, the just unbelievable effort. He is a star. He's a star. And I think Dylan Harper on another team would be a star, too. He's not even 100%. Darren Fox isn't 100%, but he still gives them a little bit of shot creation when they need shot creation. So. And Stay tuned. By the way, I will have my DDU picks on that a little bit later on because some of these, a couple of these things have been very, very good to me. Very, very good to me.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

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[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

On a July morning in 1991, Detective Mike King's life changed forever.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I don't think I'll ever forget that

[Dan Bernstein]

first moment when I saw her.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

A young woman made a startling confession. She'd recently been a member of a cult.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I had to consider the fact that her involvement meant that she could actually be one of the predators.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

Gardens of Evil Inside the Zion Society Cult is the fifth season of the award winning series American Nightmares. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

[Dan Bernstein]

Now, I want to talk a little bit about a major sports story that I I hadn't really discussed because I'm not a huge fan of the sport, but there were a couple things in the reporting of Kyle Busch's death from severe bilateral pneumonia that turned into sepsis that really did catch my eye and inspired me to talk to several doctors with some questions that I had. And over the last three days what has emerged from my conversations with doctors about Kyle Busch's death is some sadness and then some concerns that and maybe a bit of a lesson that can be taken away and how some unique circumstances because of the nature of NASCAR allowed something to happen that frankly shouldn't an otherwise healthy 41 year old man should not have severe pneumonia progress into sepsis. It should be interrupted. And this wasn't. And unfortunately there were just a lot of reasons why and nobody individually is really to blame. And this isn't to go looking around and pointing fingers and having some sort of inquest and demanding that there be justice. It isn't like that. It isn't like that. But what I came away thinking is is there a lesson here? Is there somebody that can be helped because of what happened here? And after talking to doctors about it, I think maybe is the answer. So let me and I'll give you all of the disclaimers here. I am not a doctor. I didn't go to medical school. I have lots of people close to me who did and who were more than willing to provide and of various different specialties. I Didn't talk to just one particular specialty about this. These are practicing doctors too. These are not just people with degrees. These are people still on the front lines of health care. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a lawyer, but I did ask questions because of what I read. And the only information that we have about Kyle Busch's death comes from what the family has told us and what the Associated Press has reported. So a lot of this work has been done by the Associated Press. I'm also, I'm not gonna. I'm, you know, I'm not a NASCAR fan. I don't know much about it. I don't, I'm not. I don't claim to know much about Kyle Busch. I don't claim to know about him or his rivalries or his wins or his losses or, or all that much about it. So if this is a bursty, you can't talk NASCAR because you don't know about it. I'm just going to tell you where my curiosity in this led me. What we know is that an otherwise healthy 41 year old died of sepsis that was caused by unchecked bilateral pneumonia. And it was a day after he had passed out in a simulator before he was going to compete in the Coca Cola 600. And he was hospitalized with a severe illness, became unresponsive in a racing simulator, experienced shortness of breath, felt he was overheating and was coughing up blood. The day before his death, the caller said that Bush was lying on the bathroom floor inside the complex, told dispatch he was awake, gave directions where emergency responders should go and he was thought to have had a sinus cold while racing on May 10th. This is Watkins Glenn. He was racing May 10th. It was thought to have a cold. He radioed his team saying he needed a shot from a doctor after the race. So I circled that I would like to know what doctor, what shot? Why did he say that? When he radioed his team saying he needed a shot from a doctor after the race, what did he know about how he felt then, what kind of shot and what doctor? This. I would simply want to find out what happened there. I just, I'd like to. I'd like to know more. And then he won the truck series race at Dover the weekend before and competed in the All Star race. When we know this was. He was already something going on with him systemically of which he was aware enough to tell his team he needed a shot of what? I don't know. It was this quote from Brad Keselowski that bothered me when he said he knew that Bush wasn't feeling well recently, and Keselowski said, yes, but I won't go into any specifics. Kind of like it, too said. But then when he ran the truck race last week, those thoughts were honestly kind of erased in my mind. Keselowski said running multiple races on the same weekend can be difficult on a driver's health, but most don't want to miss a race for fear of being replaced. Here's the quote. There's no shortage of drivers that would love to take my seat or anybody else's seat if we weren't feeling well. And I think every driver feels that pressure. All athletes do. It's not unique to NASCAR in that sense. We're all thinking to ourselves, I don't want to be replaced. So you try to power through it the best you can. Now, that is scary and sad because I would hate to think that these are the best in the world at this if they can't. Is that a real fear? Is this, is this true that there's no shortage of drivers who loved. If you miss a race, is it that likely that you, with your track record, would be replaced? Really? What does that say? Or is that just the mentality that's built in. Is it like, look, we, I, I. It was like that in radio. People always, you know, the old timer. Yeah. Never, never take a vacation. Longer in a week. Then they realize they don't need you, they can live without you. They replace you, they'll find somebody who. It's, you know what, what WGN used to say to their anchors back in the day, there's a line to the lake for your job. That was the old. The line to the lake for your job. And they used to scare people, never take time off. When you take time off, you're fired. If that's happening with some of the best race car drivers in the world, really, is it actually. Is that a real fear? That's the first thing I want to know, and I don't know the answer. You may be a big NASCAR fan and you might be in your car wherever you are, screaming, you know, out on your walk, walking your dog or doing your lifting, and you're screaming, come on. Of course it's happened to this guy and happened to this guy and this guy, and the moment you leave, you get replaced or you're screaming, no, it's a, it's irrational and unfounded. All of these stars with endorsements and contracts, they can't be replaced. This is big Time sports. You can't just replace somebody for being sick. The idea of having to, to out tough pneumonia, you don't mess around with pneumonia. Pneumonia can kill you. There's a lot of diseases that untreated can spiral on you real fast. And professional athletes at the very top of their sport should and I believe do have access to the best medical care. I know F1 does a lot with medical preparation. Suffice it to say, if Kyle Busch were an NBA player, a baseball player, NFL player, if he were a premier league football player, this would have gotten interrupted somewhere. Somebody on the staff would have said no, you're not racing, you need rest, you have pneumonia, you're not getting in a simulator, you're not still racing. And one of the doctors with whom I've been bouncing things off of, you know, my, my concerns, my curiosities and their answers. One of the doctors said a couple things and I, I said, if this were an NBA, NFL, MLB player, is this as likely a cause of death? And this doctor said no. You can drive from your deathbed, but you can't fill out a box score. This person, this doctor also said there is a gigantic gene of denial and disbelief and I'm superhuman. It kills people every day. So this isn't necessarily nefarious. This is the patient being a guy. You can't hide it, you can't compete in this condition in other sports. That was one response that I got and that's what I think is really, really sad. That if, if, if this sport is dealing with the fear of replacement, essentially forcing somebody to ignore a deathly illness, that's terrifying. But it does. The other thing that emerged from my conversations, it does speak to a problem that we have as men, and that's the other thread that kept emerging here, is that it is more common among men than women to try to out tough things. You shouldn't try to out tough because you just feel you're supposed to bite down on the edge of a knife or you bite a bullet, rub some dirt on it, you can't out tough an antibiotic resistant bacteria, you can't out tough a virus, you can't out tough biology. And you unfortunately, as much as you want to then reach out and say, well, I'll do my own, I'll find my own doctors or my own research, or I'll find things that makes you, that desperation and that fear makes you easier prey for grifters who don't care if you, if you live or die. They just want your money and they'll get it because they'll sell you horse paste and they'll sell you colloidal silver. Colloidal silver. They'll sell you snake oil because you're desperate and scared. But you can't let on that you're desperate and scared. The lesson in this is, you know, when you're not right, go to a doctor. And sometimes, unfortunately, people who have a regular internist, a regular primary care physician, that it shouldn't be a privilege, it should be a right, like it is in other countries. The ability to have health care that doesn't force you to make decisions about whether or not you eat or you clothe your children. But that's not the world we live in. And people go to urgent care where people wander into the er however you need to do it. When it comes to listening to your body and trying to, ah, well, let's, I don't, I don't believe in that stuff here. You go to a doctor, they find stuff wrong with you. I think one of the lessons from this for us as men is listen to your body and if you're coughing up blood, it's a bad sign and maybe take a day off from work. The structure of NASCAR that allowed this to happen should be reassessed. There needs to be more cross checking some of this and I don't think there's a driver's union. I think it's still pretty much top down management side, ownership side. But there should be some advocacy for drivers if this fear of replacement that Brad Keselowski is talking about is really that pervasive, that it in some way contributed to the death of an otherwise healthy 41 year old racing star. That's a huge problem. That's what's scary to me. When you say it's not unique to NASCAR in that sense. Every driver feels that pressure. Well, in some ways it is because of what you're still able to do on your deathbed. You can still drive a car, a hockey player, a soccer player, a basketball player. They know I can't go out there, I can't breathe. Come on man. They know it. And you have so many people with other, with also with eyes on it. You're not just an individual that you've got other people that you can go to and say you're not racing today, you're going to hospital today, you're gonna stay there for a while until you're better. So whatever is in their protocols, whatever lack of fail safes would allow somebody to try to power through all this stuff should be evaluated. And I think those lessons are important. Not blame, not lawsuits, not also, not, not actions and congressional committees. But I think care so this, this kind of thing can be prevented from happening again. That would be my hope because it's immensely sad if the very nature of the competition and the fear of somebody that established, that well known, that successful. And I don't know if it's a rational or irrational fear if somebody's just waiting to say, oh, we can get somebody cheaper in here and pay them less money and they'll just do the same job driving the car. If that's true, there are all kinds of bigger picture issues and how we talk about the value over replacement of various drivers and what it means to be good. But that's not for today. It's the. I didn't think I would spend as much time as I did sort of contemplating this and then following up on it. But it's, it's, it's my hope that one of these lessons here is don't out tough back the bacterium doesn't care how tough you're trying to be. A virus doesn't care. An illness doesn't care how big a man you are or how stoic you are or what you have lived through in the past. Avail yourself of the medical care that you have, especially in a situation when you are a star driver and you should have the very best medical care available to you. And I can't imagine any doctor would advise looking at those symptoms that you're in a car, you're in a simulator, you're doing those things. I, but I just came away thinking this was, this was really too bad and shouldn't happen again. Every sports fan has an angle. The team you trust, the favorite you want to fade, the player you think is due that action that you can feel coming and smell it in the air before everyone else sees it. Well, that is where my bookie comes in because now you have a chance to act on that. My bookie gives you a place to turn the opinions into action. Watching these incredible playoffs now. I can't wait for this game tonight. And you know the Cubs are already going to be down 4:1 at that point. So I'll be able to go for the basketball game. Maybe you're getting ready for the World cup this summer. Well, the promo code dbu, when you sign up, gets you an exclusive offer that you can claim just because you're listening right now. DBU is the code. When you go to my bookie, dot ag make sure you use that you can back your side before the game, follow the momentum live and make the moments you already care about feel bigger. And that's the real reason to check out my bookie. You're already watching. You've got to take. Now you got a place to play it. Bet anything, anytime, anywhere with my bookie. Must be 21 plus. Please gamble responsibly.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

Gardens of Evil Inside the Zion Society Cult tells the story of a cult in a Utah suburb operating in plain sight.

[Dan Bernstein]

I said, you have messed with the wrong woman as I went out the door and he did it. Was our whole life some form of abuse? Like I can't think of any time that was just joy.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

Gardens of Evil Inside the City Zion Society Cult is the fifth season of the award winning series American Nightmares. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

[Dan Bernstein]

So there's also been something in the back of my head that's been bugging me. And I finally said something. I finally said something about it. This is on a much lighter note. I was out and about for the last three days and I don't know when I, when I, when I'm out wandering around fishing, I get silly and I get into all kinds of conversations with people and I just, I have, I get such a kick out of that, of talking to the, the tourists that are walking in front of Buckingham Fountain because that's really my stretch just sort of in between the Shedd Aquarium and all the way up to the top of Dble harbor and just seeing all the different people and people taking pictures of. You have never seen a Canada goose before and taking pictures of it because I get some exotic animal. Okay, have fun. The. And then, you know, I get, I get talkative and I always worry that somebody's going to punch me for something I say, which is possible. And by the way, I am keeping my eye open for 312 merch. I didn't see any. But I'm looking. I saw one I thought might be. I saw the colors. A lot of bear stuff out there. A lot of bear stuff. Everybody's wearing bear stuff. But then I saw one, I saw three on there and I got okay. But this wasn't when I was out there. This one, I was in the grocery store and if you look at the pin pad when you pay. This has been bugging me for was it two weeks now. I think that they've been showing the same message. As you are tapping your card as you're checking out of the grocery store, there's a note that comes up that says, would you like to donate to support local hunger? That's been bothering me because I. So I finally said something. Every time I see that, I'm like, no, no, I'm against local hunger. Why would I support it? Why would I give money to an effort to support any hunger? Local, national, global, hyper, local. I don't want any hunger. So no, I'm not supporting that. And I finally said something

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

to the

[Dan Bernstein]

poor kid that was looking over all of the self service kiosks. I said, excuse me, I just want the record to reflect something. He said, yeah. I said, you keep asking me if I want to support local hunger. I said, I just want the record to reflect that. No, I'm strongly against it. I'm never going to, I'm never going to support this because I just, I don't think that it's really a worthwhile cause. I'd like to support something that's, that is fighting local hunger rather than supporting and, rather than just, rather than just the eye roll. He starts laughing and he says, this is his response. I thought it was very good. And he said, how very George Carlin of you. And I said, well, I'll take that as a compliment. But I just, you know, I just want to make sure that the, that the record reflects my choice and my feelings have been expressed. So there. So all I'll say is stop asking me whether I want to support local hunger. I don't. And you look very judgy right now. No, I'm not judgy. And so does Maverick behind you.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I'm not judgy. I just like, you know exactly what they're doing.

[Dan Bernstein]

I know, but, but somebody.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

The only, the only, the only shining. The only, the only good part about this story is the fact that the kid responded. Well, yes, because I mean, you're, you're going out of your way to bother this kid who's just, you know, trying

[Dan Bernstein]

to do this job.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Exactly what I'm doing and I know, entertain myself, Right? You were trying to get them to be like, well, you know, that's not what it means. And like, yeah, I mean, great response on his part, but you know exactly what they're saying. I mean, because you see that all the time.

[Dan Bernstein]

You see. I know, but, but it's just phrasing, phrasing.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

It's always misphrased all the time. It's just like, you know, support breast cancer. Well, no, I don't want to support breast cancer. You know, support, you know, support this, support that. You know, you go to Dick.

[Dan Bernstein]

Sporting.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Good. They always ask you if you want to support. If you want to support local. Local, like athletes or athletics. I'm like, well, I already do, so I. I'm good. I'm good. But I appreciate, you know, you asking. So I get what they're saying there. So you know exactly what they're doing.

[Dan Bernstein]

But at some point, has. Has no one else said anything? Has no one else said to support. It literally says support local hunger. Yeah, that's wrong.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

It is wrong. Correct. And I think everyone just.

[Dan Bernstein]

That's what I want. I need. I want an award. I want someone to walk in with a big trophy and says, you're right. You're smarter than everybody else. You're. You figured it out. You're a good boy. You've made everybody proud. Nice job. Now shut up. That's what they'll say on the plaque on the trophy.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Well, everyone else knows what it means. That's why no one's going to go out of their way to waste their time to say something.

[Dan Bernstein]

I know what it means, too. I just care about words. I care about the words. No, I don't support local hunger. And see, I've been saying. I've been saying that out loud. I've been kind of like, previously, I've just been like, okay, I got my thing. No, I don't support local hunger. I'm just kind of saying it to myself.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

What do you feel about the people that then donate, though? Because they do support local hunger.

[Dan Bernstein]

They love hunger. So they want people. Yeah, they want people to starve.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

And I want to try this. They just. They. They assume they know what it means.

[Dan Bernstein]

Oh, yeah. Oh, they're evil. And I want. I need to find.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

They're giving their money. Why don't you give your money instead?

[Dan Bernstein]

I want to go see where this organization is based. I want to go see the supervillain behind this effort to make local people hungry.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Well, I think the supervillain would be really large.

[Dan Bernstein]

Swiping, maybe not maybe it's like, maybe swiping the food from somebody and giving to somebody else. I don't know what's going on. I just know whoever is in charge of creating all this local hunger, I do not support. And. And I'm.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I'm glad that you responded. Well, I'm glad that he. He didn't let you get to him. I'd have been like, all right, dude, you know what the.

[Dan Bernstein]

It means out of here? Yeah, it's crowded. It's Memorial Day. I've got. This is the first Hour of a ten hour shift, right?

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

The public and I, you know, as

[Dan Bernstein]

it is, I gotta deal with that guy and that guy and her and that dude, right? You're the last thing I need right now. Right? People walking into Jewel in their underpants. I mean, what are you doing? What are you doing? And then I also saw a couple kids in Mariano's commandeering the driving cart. Like the adult one, not the little kid one with the steering wheel. Like, leave that for. Somebody's gonna need that. It's not a toy. It's not a toy. You don't go tooling around on that thing.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

You know why you bring that up? I get why they have them. People need them. I. I get it. It's fine. But just because you drive one around the grocery store doesn't give you the right to be an either. It really does.

[Dan Bernstein]

Here we go.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

No, I'm just, I'm just saying. What, what do you mean, here we go? I'm just saying it doesn't give you the right to like, just to drive through the aisles as quick, quickly as you want or expect people to get out of your way because you went down the wrong aisle. Like you're still part of society in this grocery store at that moment.

[Dan Bernstein]

No, I don't think so. I think that gives you a get out of everything free card. I think if you're riding that thing, you should be whacking people with your cane.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

See, that's. Yeah, you got a cane, Then walk. Don't use the, the cart.

[Dan Bernstein]

No, you sit there, you stab it. You like pull it out like dead pool and just start smacking people.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Like, you shouldn't expect people to, to bend over backwards for you because you're in a cart.

[Dan Bernstein]

The cart.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Yeah. Sorry. Okay. Well, I mean, you're still part of society at that moment. You can share space with people.

[Dan Bernstein]

So I, I go into Dick's Sporting Goods over the weekend too because I needed these new like offset jig heads for my ned rigs and they didn't have them.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Are these fishing lures?

[Dan Bernstein]

Is that what we're talking? Yeah, it's.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

It's for the, for the lay people here.

[Dan Bernstein]

No, a ned rig is a jig that sits on the bottom and the head is down. The body floats at like a 45 degree angle. Okay. And it just kind of sits and you twitch it and it's a. I like to have an offset head that kind of buries the hooks because you lose fewer jigs that way. And I'm like, oh, jigs will happen I was right there and I go, and I go in, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking. I'm going through all this stuff and I can't find, I can't find. I couldn't find it. But there's a guy who walks by and he goes, Dan, like, yeah. And then he kind of, he starts laughing and he goes, this is very on brand. And I said, well, I imagine. And I said, it's either this or discounted meat. I said, there's the three places I'm not pretending like you can find. If you can find me like shopping for fishing gear in the back, looking at discounted meat and day old baked goods. Yep, yes, you can find me there. He's like, well, okay, I, I guess you weren't, you weren't lying, so. No, no, I'm not lying. But always like I say, always come up to me, always say hello, I'm glad you did, but where are your three one, two stuff?

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

And then I can hug hugs? Yeah, they don't want hugs, so.

[Dan Bernstein]

Oh yeah, yeah, they're all lying. Anybody who says that is lying.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

If you see a lot of shirtless people around you when you're out fishing, it's because they took their shirts off because they had 312 gear on.

[Dan Bernstein]

They're not just fishing. They took it off yesterday. Just random people shirtless everywhere because they

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

had 312 gear on. They saw you first, didn't want to get hugged.

[Dan Bernstein]

These. Some of these people did not. People just liked the weather like this. It was yaha time yesterday. It was absolute Montrose Beach. All I had to go to the, to the bait shop to get my fishing. It's, you know, a couple things there and it was. You could not get to Montrose Beach. It was locked all the way up Montrose, all the way back across almost by the Jewel at Broadway just to get to the beach.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Wow.

[Dan Bernstein]

It was insane. Yeah. Beautiful day and oh my God. Gorgeous day. Absolutely gorgeous day. It is time for DBU picks and they are presented by my bookie. And I'm not being lazy. I think I'm, I'm being reasonable here. I'm sticking with the same bet again tonight because I think the pace of play is lending it to this. I also think that the back half of this might be even more likely to hit than the first half of this. But I'm going to go to the well one more time and let it ride. Here's my DBU pick the Spurs Devin to sell three plus threes and we're going to go with Mr. McCain on the Thunder again, two plus threes. Now, if you want, you can do three plus threes on Jared McCain, because that would be a little more risk for a lot more reward. My official pick is going to be Vassell, three or more threes. Jared McCain, two or more threes. That hit almost in the. In the first half of the last game. So I'm going to do that again. And like I say in basketball, right, until they stop it. I haven't stopped this one yet.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

All right, I'm going to look at the. Just obviously what the. The point spread is for tonight's game. OKC at home is giving four and a half. I'm going to lay the four and a half and give them a very annoying and frustrating win. That I will support, though, tonight. Okc, minus four and a half, takes the three games, the two lead over the Spurs.

[Dan Bernstein]

But do you support Local Hunger?

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Yes, I do.

[Dan Bernstein]

Wow. Look what I just found. See that?

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

What'd you find?

[Dan Bernstein]

A tick.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

On you?

[Dan Bernstein]

Yeah. Where? It was. It was crawling up my arm.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Seriously?

[Dan Bernstein]

Yeah. Like, it was down here and I saw it. Yeah.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Are you sure it's a ticket?

[Dan Bernstein]

I am sure. That is a wood tick.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Why do you have ticks on you?

[Dan Bernstein]

Because I went fishing at a forest spot on Saturday, and I did a tick check, and this one got past me.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

It's Tuesday, though, buddy.

[Dan Bernstein]

I went two days ago. So this is. This is. This has been somewhere. This guy could have been in my car. Because sometimes when I go to the spot, they get into my car. Wow. See it? Not a deer tick, though. That is a common wood tick that does carry disease, but not Lyme disease.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Yeah, probably stop touching it.

[Dan Bernstein]

It's. It's not digging in. And this. The skin on the tip of your finger is too thick for it to dig. It's not doing anything. But how cool is that?

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Yeah, it's cool. Maybe dispose of it.

[Dan Bernstein]

That'd be good. These things are indestructible, man.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Okay, well, let's get rid of it. Out of the studio would be super.

[Dan Bernstein]

I'm gonna take it out of the studio. I just. I just noticed it. Okay.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

Are you gonna go set it outside and, like, let it free?

[Dan Bernstein]

No. Okay. No. I'm not a Buddhist. All right, well, go, I guess, straight and meditate like a Buddhist. I'm dropping flavor. My behavior is hereditary, but my technique is very necessary. Sorry.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

All right.

[Dan Bernstein]

Yeah. Let's wrap it up now on that. All right.

[Mark McCray]

Yeah.

[Dan Bernstein]

This is DBU on three. One, two is brought to you in partnership with my bookie, Dan Bernstein. Unfiltered unfiltered on 312 sports.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

On a July morning in 1991, Detective Mike King's life changed forever.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I don't think I'll ever forget that

[Dan Bernstein]

first moment when I saw her.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

A young woman made a startling confession. She'd recently been a member of a cult.

[Co-host or Guest on DBU]

I had to consider the fact that that her involvement meant that she could actually be one of the predators.

[Narrator of American Nightmares Podcast]

Gardens of Evil Inside the Zion Society Cult is the fifth season of the award winning series American Nightmares. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.

[Dan Bernstein]

Whether you're road tripping, kicking back by the pool, or just looking for your next obsession this Memorial Day weekend, now is the perfect time to catch up on American Afterlife, the audio drama podcast

[Mark McCray]

that hit number one on the Apple podcast fiction charts.

[Dan Bernstein]

Catch up now before the season finale drops this Tuesday. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.