← Dan Bernstein Unfiltered
Dan Bernstein Unfiltered
The Defector's Ray Ratto on state of college basketball and sports media landscape
01:04:41
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- [00:00]
Dan Bernstein
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- [00:03]
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- [00:49]
Dan Bernstein
Go to eatiqbar.com and enter code BAR20. To get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. Again, go to eatiqbar.com and Enter code BAR20.
- [01:00]
Mira Potassan
Hi, my name is Mira Potassan. I'm an author and I'm an activist. And GoFundMe is my go to platform for fundraising. The first GoFundMe I did was to raise money for a chat book or a collection of poetry and essays and short stories. So we started a GoFundMe and our goal was 7,000. What I've learned that is so special about GoFundMe is that it's a whole collection of people offering anything from like $4 to $400. And each time you get a ping that someone donated, even if it is just $4, it's so exciting. So if you have a goal and you get there, you can keep making it bigger and bigger and bigger. We did go past our goal. It was amazing.
- [01:46]
Ray Ratto
GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising
- [01:49]
Dan Bernstein
platform, trusted by over 200 million people.
- [01:52]
Ray Ratto
Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com
- [02:00]
Dan Bernstein
Dan Bernstein unfiltered unfiltered on 312 sports. It's DBU on three. One, two. We are brought to you in partnership with my bookie and by our friends at Giordano's Pizza. You know, whenever the stakes are high, my bookie is where you turn bets into bankroll. You got all these big matchups on the schedule. Everybody's watching. We all have a hot take. And no matter the sport, the props can be just as fun as the final score. We'll give you the the DBU Picks using my bookie a little bit later on today, but my bookie's prop board. Deep fun to play. Player performances, game milestones, all in between. Keeps things interesting. Get in. Right now, it's the tournament. I don't need to tell you, there's all this chaos, and there are opportunities flying in all directions right now. You can get your baseball futures in there too, because opening day is coming up this week. One account, one wallet. Whatever you like to bet. Spreads, parlays, money lines, whatever makes you happy. There's a casino you can jump in during halftime or between games. Everything is at MyBookie AG, and with the code DBU, your first bet's covered up to 500 bucks. If it doesn't hit your bet back, bonus token runs it all back. That's the code DBU at MyBookie AG. Don't just watch the action, make it pay. With MyBookie. And I know what you're asking. We know that Bernstein's handsome face is always there. And often the handsome face of Mattabetticola is always there. But that one, if you say, is that Ray Ratto? Yes, indeed it is. Ray Ratto. It's a pleasure to have you here, and welcome to 312 sports. Welcome to DBU. How are you?
- [03:36]
Ray Ratto
What's the puck line on Hawks Islanders tonight?
- [03:40]
Dan Bernstein
I have no idea generally how to watch hockey, let alone how to bet it, but I can. I can find it better.
- [03:48]
Ray Ratto
The less you know, the better chance you have of winning. Hey, man.
- [03:51]
Dan Bernstein
We're learning that in our. In the current pool that we have going on our busted bracket challenge that, as always, I say, back in the old days, Harvey Wells, secretary, Dolores would always win. And it sort of became the joke of Dolores betting on mascots and team names, et cetera, and having her grandkids do things.
- [04:14]
Ray Ratto
I would normally say, don't sleep on Dolores, but that doesn't work.
- [04:19]
Dan Bernstein
I think you might have missed your chance. I don't think Dolores is with us anymore, so, you know. But, hey, you know, I'm not yucking anybody's yummy. Um, I'm gonna make you uncomfortable, I think, Ray, and.
- [04:31]
Ray Ratto
Oh, yeah, let's. Good start. That's great.
- [04:34]
Dan Bernstein
Yeah, I'm. I'm. I'm think I'm gonna make you uncomfortable because I know you don't like nice things being said about you. I know you're. You're allergic to compliments as much so as. As anyone, but I just. I want you to settle in for that. I will say. Well, we'll talk about the, the business and how fast things are changing in our world around us. I, I wouldn't say, you know, if I was talking to you 15 years ago and they say, well, Bernstein's going to be a part of a startup podcast network in Chicago, and you are going to be part of this scrappy collective of some of the smartest minds writing anything resembling what we would call sports writing today. It's wonderful to see where the world can take us if we're open to things.
- [05:22]
Ray Ratto
Well, one of the things we have to be open to is working for no money, because that's the one significant change. There's still as much talent as there's always been. There's still as many smart people that there's always been. But there are fewer and fewer places where you can take your wares and be able to make the rent. And that's the difference. We replaced democratizing the system with paying for the system. And you may decide what is better. But me, I like to eat.
- [05:57]
Dan Bernstein
Eating's good. Eating is good.
- [06:00]
Ray Ratto
This is my guess from the way I look.
- [06:03]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, stop it. Believe me, I've seen you at other various stages, and I think you look good. In all honesty, I think you look good. I think you're taking good care of yourself.
- [06:15]
Ray Ratto
What happened to your glasses? How do you look through those and come up with, I think you look good?
- [06:22]
Dan Bernstein
Hey, man, I. I'm, I'm. I'm. I've become. In my old age, I've become more generous, perhaps. And it's. I'm.
- [06:30]
Ray Ratto
It's as good a reason as any.
- [06:32]
Dan Bernstein
And I'm. And I'm able to. And I'm able to. To see the entire person and want to see the entire person, perhaps in a way that I hadn't. I told you I was going to make you uncomfortable.
- [06:41]
Ray Ratto
Genuinely creepy.
- [06:42]
Dan Bernstein
This, this time of year, in tournament time, I find myself globalizing so much of what I see when I watch college basketball because for so long, it has represented so many things in sports. It symbolized so many things in sports, whether it was grumbling about the old NCAA slave labor cartel, or in looking at the mere existence of the NCAA as an affront to see it increasingly powerless. They're still making their money. But to know that these guys that we're watching aren't necessarily some archetype of scholar athletes, that they're minor league professionals now being paid at least something close to what should be deserved, it's never going to make up for all the free labor that players have given. But post o' Bannon case to, to watch it be more of an even field between these coaches and the players. It does my heart pretty good. How about you?
- [07:46]
Ray Ratto
I recognize it for what it is, which is a temporary, temporary waystation en route to players getting screwed again, because I think what we're seeing is while the NC2A has been neutered to a large extent, the athletic directors and the people who fuel their, their programs have not yet gotten fully up to speed on how to co opt all of that. I mean, they're in Congress trying to limit the benefits. I think what we have now is the Wild west where there are no rules, just suggestions. But there are going to be. No, there are going to be new rules and they're going to be just as oppressive for players as before just because adults who know how to handle money are better off at handling money than teenagers. It's just gravity that way. So I regard this as a brief renaissance of chaos to be followed by a new NC2A with a different acronym that is just as oppressive for players because players are still largely defenseless.
- [09:06]
Dan Bernstein
Well, this would be a good time to organize then. And we've seen it piecemeal. We've seen what happened at Northwestern and Dartmouth with unionization activities and attempts that were then failed. Things got up to the NLRB and then the Supreme Court's ruling changed the entire landscape before one of those cases could sort of work its way up and do that on its own. Can't they organize better? Couldn't players right now be finding a way? And agents, I think this could be in some part selfishly agent driven, those who are working with the collectives and everybody else to say, look, we are going to do this collectively. You can't unilaterally impose a work structure on us. And there are lawyers that would be more than willing to help them with it.
- [10:02]
Ray Ratto
I think that's probably true. But I think as we've seen with the nflpa, to a certain extent, the wnba, pa, the unions have given out or given away a lot of that level of power and it's got to be somebody who's willing to be in it for the long haul for a clientele who A is much younger, B may not be prepared for an outside world without athletics, and C, at a time when I think the economy is constricting. So I think that can happen and in an ideal world it would happen. But we are not there yet because I think at some point someone smart and evil is going to come up with the way to do this so that the players get squeezed. I want it to, I want to be wrong. But it is my curse that I rarely am.
- [11:07]
Dan Bernstein
Something that would argue your point is the, the way that reflexively the coverage via the NCAA's control of whatever usually I would say by the network but there's multiple networks involved here. We're talking about, you know, CBS and T&DBs and TruTV. But it is, it's still old fashioned in the way the game is covered in that. And this year, I think specifically and even today, looking at the results of this weekend, it's so coach centric and because of player movement and the transfer portal, we are not able to sort of put our, you know, get a foothold with the, the players on certain teams. Everything's changing over every year that we, we, here's Duke and I gotta get, you know, see five new starters and say oh, I remember this guy, this guy played at McNeese and this guy transferred from Kennesaw and here we are. That the coaches, they know they can build into their promos. They know that we can say oh, I know who Rick Pitino is, I know who John Calipari is. And the problem is then it makes the product about these scowling, screaming, sweating coaches red faced and the image with look who's still left. Izzo, Calipari, Barnes, Painter, Sampson, Hurley, Patino, Underwood, that we, we've got weeks of, of more of these cutaways to, to, to, to apoplectic coaches which unfortunately become the image of college basketball. And that tells me that there, there still are some old forces that like it that way.
- [12:55]
Ray Ratto
Well, they like it that way but let's not forget that it's the only thing that the networks and their analysts have to cling on to because player movement is so much more volatile. And really there are only about 12 certifiable lunatics in the country that pay attention to all that player movement. I mean the things that are running around Jay Bilis head just to keep up with all of this is frightening. I mean it has to come at the expense of every other thing in his life. And I, I mean I like and admire him a great deal. But to follow college basketball and to a certain extent college football as well in the current climate is the act of a mad person because you can't keep up with it. And the fact that it's about coaches, it's because coaches are the only things that they get access to. You know, it's hard to get players to sit down, you know, because there's there's always three or four intermediaries saying, here, we'll give you an assistant instead. You know, it's, you know, and I mean, you're right. I mean, who wants to spend 15 minutes with Mick Cronin? You know, you just hit yourself in the face with a skillet to avoid it. But it has always been the nature of college basketball in particular. I mean, who are all the analysts? Ex coaches. You know, there are a few ex players scattered here and there, but for the most part, ex coaches are the guys sitting next in. You know, I. And Eagle and Ian Eagle, by the way, has done every game in the NC2A so far this year. It's a remarkable achievement. Every time I turn on, there he is. He's. He may be a franchise. There may be about 40 of them around the country.
- [14:49]
Dan Bernstein
I say the same thing. Jason Benetti is, is this. It's the same thing that. Whether it's TV or radio, college or pro sports, I thought that we're getting to the point where Jason Benetti is, is always in my house with me. And that's fine. I like him.
- [15:03]
Ray Ratto
Yeah. Oh, no, he's great. But, you know, when you see him on a cooking show, you know, you're around TV too much.
- [15:11]
Dan Bernstein
I always have loved basketball coaches. This is the irony for me, or the conflict for me, I think, is if I had to pick the coach who I think is in some ways the most normal, it's basketball coaches and it's the culture of basketball in that when you ask a football coach something, you're going to get a militaristic non answer. And they'll tell you what they're good at. And God forbid they tell you something that they're struggling with, because that would allow the opponent some sort of nebulous advantage over them. And yet in basketball, if you say, hello, how you doing? To a Van Gundy, the answer is, we can't rebound. Like, how you doing? We, we, we. We can't get a rebound. We can't outlet pass. And that's. That's your first. And I love that about basketball coaches. Cause there is, there's a vulnerability in their perfectionism. And yet the way it manifests itself visually is, I know these are all miserable people generally, but when. I'll give Pitino a little bit of credit because I think in his old age he has, he's, he has found a way to, to take it all in a little bit better. But I want it both ways. I want these guys to be regular miserable people. In their real lives because it makes them approachable and understandable. This just happens to be their workplace. But when the cameras are on them, I wish they could calm down. Is that, is that unreasonable of me to want both?
- [16:45]
Ray Ratto
It's hilariously unreasonable.
- [16:47]
Dan Bernstein
Good.
- [16:48]
Ray Ratto
You know you're going to get. And here's the thing. Coaches at any level from AAU up, one of the skill sets they have to have is how to put on a Persona in front of a camera. So what you see is rarely what you get. There is a universe somewhere where Tom Izzo is a great guy to hang with. You know, all you have to do is move into the house next to him, but you don't have that kind of money, so you get to only watch him and he becomes performative because that's one of the job skills. If you can't be performative, you can't do the job. I mean, because let's face it, our only chance in the media to grade these guys is to grade them at the press conference. And the press conferences are stage managed nonsense. So, you know, you're left with two things. You know, one, are they winning or not? And two, are they entertaining in the 10 minutes you get them after a game? And that's an insane way to view people, but it is what we do because, you know, you don't get to, you know, snuggle up to a coach the way Bob Hamill used to get to snuggle up to Bob Knight. It just, it's a different time, it's a different era, it's a different grading system so you get less information upon which to make sweeping judgments about human beings. And that's just, that's the nature of it, you know, suck it up, have another drink.
- [18:17]
Dan Bernstein
I'll politely disagree about the ability to know them or criticize them because I think more than other coaches, their work once the game starts, is out right there in front of us. The great thing about basketball is they're not hiding behind impossibly complicated code words. It's right there. And for example, and when you talk how everybody criticizing is a former coach and yet they're so loath to, to actually say, boy, I don't like this strategy. I don't like that Bill Self hasn't found a way to free up Darren Peterson yet in this game. I don't like that this coach hasn't respond, responded to, to this full court pressure because he's not bringing a big man to the middle of the floor to facilitate like, I would love it. And I Miss Billy Packer in that regard. I never thought I'd miss as big a douchebag as Billy Packer is. But I. Because, I mean, just an insufferable human being. A really, just a, just a piece of shit. But, but boy, did he, did he break down a game. And he was fearless. When he disagreed with a coaching strategy, he would tell you they didn't prepare or they prepared wrong or this is, they're going to get bit in this game because they're not understanding what this player can do. And I miss that because amid all of this and all these coaches doing this job, I don't think we get enough of that anymore.
- [19:48]
Ray Ratto
Well, you're not going to get any of that anymore because the networks are in business with the colleges. I mean, it's. When the separation of church and state between the business department of a network and the sports department of a network merged, you had to protect the client. And I mean that, that again, it's the nature of where we've gone. We have, wait a minute, we got it. We have to renegotiate with these guys in three years. You ripping them about his inability to figure out how to break a press is not helping us because we don't know if he tells his athletic director, I don't want to do business with them. So it's, you know, it is part of the nature of the marriage between business and pleasure in the, in the, in the sports television areas that makes this makes Billy Packer not, You can't, he can't exist anymore. There's no money in being a crank. And what is one of the biggest complaints about the NBA coverage right now? Old former players dogging the product. You know, as, as refreshing as that might be, it's still, there's somebody in the league office going, why are we putting up with that? You know, why don't we, why don't we go to another streaming service next year? I mean, it's just, you know, it's a hallelujah chorus and it's across all sports, really. It's hard to hear criticism except maybe if you're watching the English Premier League because really they'll. There they'll go because they've had their jobs for a while. But you know, in 10 years that'll be co opted too because we, we are on a slow but measurable march toward crap. We may already be there, but there's more crap to come if we seek it out. And we are actively seeking it out.
- [21:40]
Dan Bernstein
Well, except in one sport that still has that's got that. And it's why I love golf coverage. And for some reason, whatever network it is the, the nature of the relationship between those individual contractors that are, that are just the golfers themselves. These golf commentators will say, that's a bad shot. They don't use the word tough because you notice that in other sports, the word tough, no one will say bad ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. They can't say bad decision. That in a basketball game they'll say, oh, tough shot right there. Tough decision, which we know as, as viewers means bad. But a golf commentator will say, I don't know what he's thinking right there. That's, that's a bad decision and that's going to doom him and he's going to be kicking himself. And I find that refreshing.
- [22:29]
Ray Ratto
Well, I don't watch enough golf to be able to make a coherent argument for or against your position. But I think, and I learned this a long time ago from talking to a baseball players is you can say I made a bad play, but you can't say I'm a bad player. That was always the drawing line. And I think in golf, and I could be wrong here. So, you know, bear with me. If you put a ball in the woods, there's no way to dress that up. You know, how much, how much complaints about club selection do they have? How much, how often do they complain about. God, he completely read that green incorrectly. You know, but if you put a ball in the water, that's indisputable, that's not a good play. I mean, even, even those of us who don't play golf know it's hard to hit a ball when it's three feet submerged. So I guess I would have to know if their criticisms are about individual shots or about a golfer's ability to function on a course. I mean, that to me is different. That to me is the kind of criticism that Billy Packer used to do with basketball, which was, why are they running that offense? You know? Well, Billy, there's an excellent chance that maybe the coach knows more about his personnel than you do, since you just, you know, flounced into town 20 minutes ago. But, you know, I, that would be my supposition until I watched more golf. And with all due respect to you, I'm not doing that.
- [23:59]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, but the golf nap, there's, there's nothing like a late afternoon Saturday or Sunday golf nap where all, all is sweet dreams on the couch. And then you wake up and they're on 16 and you're like, oh, was that nice?
- [24:15]
Ray Ratto
See, I can take a nap while driving the freeway. So I. That's not, that's not meaningful for me.
- [24:20]
Dan Bernstein
Okay, maybe, maybe I've just got. Golf is a different place in my life. Then perhaps, you know, you, I think you mentioned the term when we were talking a little more about college basketball, but. What. Enjoy. And in this, if I stipulate to the inexorable trending toward crap theory, what still, as we are sliding down the razor blade, to quote Tom Lehrer, what brings you joy? What makes you. Watching sports, consuming sports, what makes you happy?
- [24:59]
Ray Ratto
Happy is a relative term. What makes me content is the game itself. Because it is the one place where, until our next, you know, point shaving scandal, is the one place where you can't be lied to. You know, you shoot from a certain spot on the floor, that's three. You shoot at another spot on the floor, that's two. Everything else is negotiable but the simple purity of the hundred meter sprint. You know, the guy who gets there first or the woman who gets there first wins. And, you know, there's a validity to the deed itself that can only be ruined after the fact, you know, but it's the deed that makes it otherwise. You're looking at Survivor. And I would rather put knitting needles in my eye at 40 miles an hour than do that.
- [25:58]
Dan Bernstein
Did you watch the wbc?
- [26:01]
Ray Ratto
Yes. And I mean, that was, to me, I mean, it was, it was baseball. I mean, it was good baseball. It was good players, so it was going to be good. The difference between the WBC and say, postseason baseball was the flavor of the fans is because they made it a different experience than your standard late September Royals at White Sox. You know, it was just, it was a, just, it was a different vibe and it's hard to put your hands around it. And also because there are fewer games, more of them matter. When you're looking at 1300 baseball games in a year, they've got to be really good to stand out. And the wbc, because it's a contrived, you know, format, more games matter. And if you do that, you'll get, you'll get more things that you will remember at least for a little while. Once opening day starts. Nobody's going to reference the WWBC for another four years. But while it was going on, it was worthwhile entertainment. I mean, fungible, forgettable. But at the time, it was a good way to kill a Saturday night.
- [27:19]
Dan Bernstein
I was so happy the United States team lost and I was rooting so hard against them. And so hard for the Dominican Republic and so hard for Venezuela. I thought that this US team was in some ways a perfectly miserable simulacrum of an aspect of this country that I continue to detest. And, and, and every day I wake up and they boiled it down, man. They, they struck, whether they intended to or not, that you can. There are so many cultural papers that I think could be written about what this team chose to do, how they chose to present themselves. And I'm on record before this all started, before they, they even began, when I said all I wanted out of Mark DeRosa was for this team to be able to evince the same joy as their opponents and they chose the opposite. And I thought the US was, was gross. I thought the coverage was gross. And I am, I could not be happier for the, for Venezuela and for those players, for how they, how they showed their emotion. In the end. It touched on so many different things. It touched on the difference between patriotism and nationalism. It touched on the difference between the sensitivity and vulnerability of, of real masculinity as opposed to hardo, bullshit, macho posturing. And I wish I thought more people could understand what lessons were provided in this.
- [29:05]
Ray Ratto
I know what you're saying. I mean, I wanted Venezuela to win too, and I wanted the Dominican Republic to win too, because it mattered more to their fans than it mattered to American fans. I think the players themselves are largely conditioned by the fact that they don't care at their essence, about the wbc. It's not important to them. It's more games before a full season of everyday baseball. And the culture of everyday baseball is don't get too high, don't get too low. Emotions are not to be trusted, be buttoned down and then you throw. On top of that, the noxious levels of patriotism enforced upon them. I mean, do you honestly think that Aaron Judge wanted to walk on a field carrying the American flag? No. He wanted to run out to right field and, you know, throw, you know, throw warm up pitches between half innings to a guy in the bullpen. You know, that's, that's the baseball he knows. And so all the patriotism was performative based on the fact that our patriotism now is as toxic as it is. It could only come off as bad. But I don't think it was necessarily because the players wanted it to be that, you know, you're asking them to be emotional and joyful and, you know, in rhythm with the audience when all of their experience as a baseball player is you don't pay attention to them. You pay attention to the job. Do the job. You know, don't jump up and down when you do something well, don't throw your bat when you do something poorly. I mean, it is the nature of who they are put in an artificially, to use your word, joyful environment. And so I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that the Americans were joyless and sour and foul because that's how they have been taught to approach the game in general. And so you give them all that, all that sort of years of training and then you, you know, wrap the American flag around it at a time when the American flag is, you know, makes you cringe a bit and you get what you got. I mean, you experienced what you saw. I'm not questioning that. But you're putting the American players in a very foreign environment. And by foreign, I mean it's okay to be excited, but no, it isn't because I know I'm going to catch crap when I go back to training, to spring training. I just think they were put in an alien environment. And again, I use the word alien as strange, not as foreign. You put them in an environment that they're not used to and you expect them to behave differently. And they don't. So I, I'm willing to give them a pass. But again, I was still rooting for the Venezuelans because it mattered more to that culture. It's the same reason I want a Canadian team to win the Stanley cup before I die, because it matters more to them. It just does. We have. We have too much. Everybody else has. Not quite enough.
- [32:36]
Dan Bernstein
Our conversation here on Dan Bernstein unfiltered on 312 sports with the legendary sports opinioner Ray Ratto is brought to you by our friends at Chicago Window. Guys. Russ Armstrong will come to your house and give you the estimate. And when Russ comes there, trust me, talk about curling. Russ loves curling. He's super into it and he'd rather talk about curling than windows even though he is the Chicago window guy. Trust me on this, because he did my windows, I've recommended him to everybody. He'll do yours. He'll match any price. Don't fall for the buy one, get one free stuff. Call him 847-302-9171. Check out Russ's five star reviews at ChicagoNow,DowGuys.com owns the factory here in Chicago. Custom makes the windows for your house and all his people do the installations, they do the measuring. He knows everybody in and around your house. There's no subcontracted labor, no third party. So if that makes you gives you some peace of mind to know that these are Russ's peeps, it's good. Give him a call, 847-302-9171. And check out his five star reviews at ChicagoNowGuys.com Ray We.
- [33:44]
Ray Ratto
And ask him about the Breyers.
- [33:46]
Dan Bernstein
The Breyers, yes. Okay.
- [33:49]
Ray Ratto
It's one of the big curling competitions in Canada every year.
- [33:52]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, he'll, he's probably been, he probably sponsors it. He probably knows the guy.
- [33:57]
Ray Ratto
Ask him about it. He might give you 10% off.
- [33:59]
Dan Bernstein
He. There you go. He's going to love this, by the way.
- [34:02]
Ray Ratto
Yeah. Until somebody asks for the 10%.
- [34:06]
Dan Bernstein
Oh, that, that ended already. You missed the window on that one, so to speak. We lost Terry Bors recently and it's been hard on all of us as it, you know, we knew that Terry had been ailing, but it's never easy when it becomes so stark and so final. We spent a great deal of time here in Chicago remembering Terry and talking about what a Sui generes character he was. And yet a lot of my memories came back to his generation of columnists and the people in that crew, whether it was Dan Barrero and Phil Jasner
- [34:54]
Mira Potassan
and
- [34:57]
Dan Bernstein
Mike Bauman, all of his guy. And I knew when we were talking to one of Terry's guys, Charlie Pierce, one of these guys who'd been to the Olympics and been in these dirty press rooms and had been yelled at by coaches and you were always there front and center. And I've, I've loved how for, for lack of a better term, that generation of those who came up in print as columnists and then diverged and diversified in radio and television and what became now content to see you thriving and being a, when I say thriving, I don't necessarily mean that, that you've got five houses. I mean, you get to write what you want. You get to work with smart people all the time. Smart, funny, nice people. You're carrying the torch for a lot of that generation right now in a way that, as I said at the outset, might be kind of unexpected. Do you feel that a little bit. Do you get the sense of like one of these, this group that has aged into your 70s in large part, and, and for you to still be doing this is pretty cool.
- [36:11]
Ray Ratto
Oh, no, it is. But I don't look back because the minute you look back and you turn around, turn back to look ahead, there's a car headed for you. It's Just. It's just the job. I. I don't get nostalgic about the good old days because I always knew they were temporary. You know, being a columnist in a big city was the coolest job of all time until TV came along. And slowly but surely that became less and less important. The way that newspapers are being slowly but surely run into the ground made it less and less important. The people who are still in that business of daily news talking are truly the last of their generation. I got out of the newspaper game in 2010. I mean, that's, you know, that's a generation ago. So, you know, I'm, you know, I'm hardly the one to talk about the romance of newspapers because I bailed on it 16 years ago. But, yeah, I mean, you know, Scott Osler just retired, you know, and he just. Yeah, he just did the double natural. So he's, you know, he's well into retirement age. We lost a couple of local giants last week as well. So, look, we're of that age where if you lift your head up, somebody you sat next to is dead, which is not cool, but it is. You know, it's the time space continuum coming to finally bite us all on the ass.
- [37:48]
Dan Bernstein
When did you and Terry start to become friendly?
- [37:52]
Ray Ratto
Oh, God, 35 years ago. You know, I mean, everybody's friendship was conditioned on, you know, what the schedule said, what team is playing in what town. And so, you know, if Terry was in town with the. With the Cubs, of the White Sox, I'd see him, we'd hang out, we'd. We'd have a series of beers, you know, and, you know, that's how most journalism friendships happen. They happen in press boxes. Well, what do we know about press boxes now? They're being sold off as suites. So this next generation coming up is learning a skill that I would not be able to develop, which is how to work by yourself. And it's. For me, it's kind of depressing because it shouldn't be that way. It should be a communal experience, but it's not, you know, and I. And again, I'm simplifying this because there are still some press boxes. I mean, particularly, you know, Major League Baseball still has people whose friendships are, you know, made by the beat writers they work with, but there are fewer and fewer beat writers, and there are fewer and fewer that travel. So you're seeing the same people every day more often than not. And it's just a different dynamic. And I'm not going to be. I choose not to be nostalgic about the good old days. Because the good old days, you know, can never hold. I mean, 50 years ago, you know, you were, you were handing your, your, your typewritten piece of paper to a guy who telecopied it back to your office. You know, I mean, it just there, There are a lot of things that simply change by the nature of the technology, by the nature of who's paying you and what their interests are. I mean, the people to talk to about stuff like this are the people at the Washington Post, because they're the first ones to really have their legs taken out from under them. And there are going to be more. I mean, the New York Times basically shuttered its own sports operation because they wanted the athletic subscription subscriber lists. And so that's what they did. They, they bought a sports section, got rid of their own, and now they're. They're operating that way. So, you know, I mean, you know, the hammer's coming for everybody, and you just have to sort of steel yourself to it because the good old days ain't happening no mo.
- [40:28]
Dan Bernstein
I think that the, the Ray Ratto philosophy is best summed up in this quote from a piece in the Ringer that was written in 2019. And you said then, the trick to me was, don't pander to a generation you're not a member of, but don't act like the cranky old bastard either who wants to talk about the good old days. Because for the most part, the good old days were way shittier than the days now. So how do we reconcile these two core philosophies in how do we dovetail? The old days were shittier than the days now. And I'm not saying you're wrong, because I do tend to agree in a lot of ways. I also think you're right in the concept of enshitification when you say all things are becoming crap. How can both be true?
- [41:30]
Ray Ratto
Because the parts that are crap are not the parts that are the writing or the news gathering. The parts that are crap are the systems under which you would be doing that work. You know, you're not working for people, for the most part. You're not working for people who care about the product. You know, it's all means to an end. It's all hedge fund vampires. You're covering leagues where the owners care less about the product and more about, you know, the next. The next network deal and less about competition.
- [42:09]
Dan Bernstein
That, that's the other aspect too, is that within these leagues, it's more about, I've got my franchise. How do I make as much money as possible without trying to win the championship?
- [42:18]
Ray Ratto
Well, exactly. I mean it just the fact that the Pittsburgh Pirates can exist and make money every year putting out a product that they know is poor and don't care that it is, that's what's different. And knowing that you're going to file your gamer to a company that doesn't care whether the newspaper exists or not, you know, that it's, you know, it's somebody who inherited the newspaper from his dad and doesn't really want it because he doesn't read the newspaper anymore. It's the nature of progress, which is also the nature of regression. The environment is simply different and the things that stay the same are becoming smaller and smaller. That's what I mean by crap. There were less sports 30 years ago and they were more fun because you got a sense that you were working with people you wanted to work with and for people you wanted to work with. I mean, I'm lucky that I don't have to go through that part, but for the most part, you know, how, how much longer do you think the Los Angeles Times is going to exist? You know, how much longer do you think the Chicago Tribune is going to exist?
- [43:37]
Dan Bernstein
It barely does, you know, and I was a print subscriber for a long, long, long time and just eventually realized I was getting two day old news. And the idea of chopping down a tree and burning fossil fuel to propel me, the chopped down tree was not something that, that counterbalanced my joy in supporting local media. It just, it made it untenable.
- [44:04]
Ray Ratto
Well, never forget that even in this environment we're still chopping down, we're still wasting fossil fuels. So rest assured there, that's a permanent.
- [44:13]
Dan Bernstein
Yeah, that's not going to change until we're all dead. Right?
- [44:16]
Ray Ratto
My next door neighbor still takes a print version of the San Francisco Chronicle and I asked her as recently as yesterday, why are you still doing that? You know, she said, well, I just like reading the newspaper. And I said, because I'm a joyless creep. I said, you're not reading the newspaper, you're reading the paper. There's no news in it, so stop doing that. And she looked at me like, boy, I can't wait for him to fall down a flight of stairs.
- [44:48]
Dan Bernstein
This is the converse of your Tom Izzo theory. Because just a little while ago you said that these guys, they perform these personae for us. And yet if you were a next door neighbor, a Tom Izzo that you Would say he's probably a delightful guy. Are we saying that this is somehow the invisible verse?
- [45:06]
Ray Ratto
Oh, I. I'm very much not a delightful guy. Oh, I. I'm a. I'm a human mudslide with shoes.
- [45:15]
Dan Bernstein
In 2019 is when I read that quote from. And you were writing for Dead. Real old Real Dead spin. I want that to be very clear before. Before Jim Spanfeller and his Mermidians decided to destroy it. And. And that was a comical destruction in a lot of ways. As sad as it was looking back on it now, some of the stuff that they did was absolutely objectively hilarious. And the response from Deadspins folks at the time. And I could not sign up for Defector fast enough when it came out. But I really did feel bad when I saw that collapse and everybody walked out on principle and I thought, the smartest people doing it, I said, well, what now? What happens? The fact that the Defector arose like it did and is owned by the writers and is succeeding. I'm not saying you guys are breaking the bank, but for. For. And I am a. A more than satisfied. I'm a gleeful subscriber to the Defector because it's a lifeline. It's a lifeline of intellectual curiosity, of editorial freedom, and a convivial sense of mission that is so rare. I really hope that you appreciate it. And you're there because you're great, too. You'll never admit it, but that's why you're there. But what is it like for you around all of these people who are considerably younger than you are?
- [46:49]
Ray Ratto
Oh, I say all the time that I'm twice as old and half as smart as the rest of those bastards. No, it's. Look, first of all, let me correct the record. I was not at Deadspin when everybody walked out. I was just a freelancer.
- [47:04]
Dan Bernstein
That's right. We read. But your work was appearing there.
- [47:07]
Ray Ratto
My work was appearing there relatively infrequently. The check appeared very frequently. Would like that. So I get no credit for being part of the group that walked out. But when they were getting the band back together and they'd found a way to find some money to get it started, Barry Pacheski said, do you want to be part of this? And I thought hard and long, maybe five seconds, and I said, yeah, sign me up. Because, you know, I thought, and for a year, there'll be a way to, you know, kill some time, look busy, pretend I'm still functional. And it's five and a half years now. And we're every. Every check comes on time. We got. We got benefits. We got a 401k. We're. We're. We're big kids. We're not getting rich, but we're. We're doing fine. I mean, we got people writing books left and right. I mean, it's. But it's. It's mostly, as you said, it's. It's a shared vision by people who never see each other. Which is the other great thing about it is I'm most. Most of the people live on the East. East Coast. Some live in New York, some live in Philly, A Couple live in D.C. we've got a culture editor who lives in New Orleans. I mean, it's all remote working, which is the one weird thing about it. But everything else about it is, you know, you gather every week by zoom and you talk about stuff, and it's because everybody likes everybody else that you have very few moments of friction. It's the one true alien thing about this, because I've never worked in a newsroom where you didn't have some untalented people who were also gaping rectal apertures, and you just accepted that as part of life's grand pageant. You know, there are always some people you wouldn't drink with if the alternative was dying in a gutter. And the fact that everybody at this place is skilled and funny and talented and not rapacious. I mean, it's. In many ways, it's not media as we know it, because everybody makes the same. Nobody has a title. I mean, well, some people are editors and some people aren't. But nobody has, you know, Grant, you know, second assistant, you know, grand in charge of, you know, of the computers, you know. No, nobody's got a town, a title there that anybody pays much attention to. It's. You're all in it together. So stop pretending that you're going to get one step up on an. On a fellow employee, because you're not. You know, we're all. We're all wearing the same orange jumpsuit, and we're all building the same highway at the same time.
- [50:03]
Dan Bernstein
When you submit a column, who edits it? Tom Lee?
- [50:06]
Ray Ratto
No, my specific editor is David Roth, and I would absolutely.
- [50:15]
Dan Bernstein
What a dream. What a dream. Because, look, I told David Roth this years ago. I think he is the closest thing we have to David Foster Wallace alive right now. As. As sports guy, cultural critic. I think he's legitimately brilliant.
- [50:39]
Ray Ratto
Oh, no, he is legitimately brilliant, and he. I have no business having him as my editor. You know, I should be turning mine into a pipe fitter three blocks down the road here. But no, he's great. But I also get edited by other really bright people. Barry Pacheski, who was the guy who hired me. Tom Lay will, will edit me from time to time. It's not a. You know, if you turn something in, you know, most of the time it's Roth, but it could be just about anybody. It could be Brandy Jensen, our culture editor, even though I've never written anything of any culture value at all. It's just the nature of how we do stuff, you know, there's no great plan about. And next week you're going to be edited by Lauren Thaisin. Well, no, you'll get edited by who's up. You know, if, if Roth can't do it, somebody else will. And it's, it's how you have to do it to make this thing work. Because if you get territorial, you know, what's the territory you're defending, you know.
- [51:43]
Dan Bernstein
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- [52:49]
Ray Ratto
It changes from time to time. But my least favorite sport is football. Just because it's now become this. It's the hegemony of thought. All people are supposed to like football. Those are your choices. That's it. Period. Right now I'm very interested in the hockey because it's getting close. I'm very interested in the pro basketball, because it's getting close to playoff time. College basketball, which I don't spend a ton of time with during the regular season. Now I'm watching every game just because the nature of the event. And I'm interested in baseball again, because it's about to start. You know, everything else is seasonal. Like, I. I go through stretches with the wnba. I go stretches with, you know, just about anything. You know, I don't stay with one thing all year long because I think it would make me nuts. But the thing I like least, I'll tell you that, is college football. Because the one thing that college football has done in the last couple of years is make it clear that it's only for people in the Southeast and the Rust Belt. It's not about the Eastern seaboard. It's certainly not about anything west of the Rockies. It's become this uber regional sport, and there's no compelling reason to follow it if you don't live in those places. And if you do live in those places, you have to follow it at the exclusion of everything else. There's a. There's a weird religiosity about it that's awkward. And watching Stanford play Wake Forest is not going to change that. You know, it's just. Why do I care about this? The truth is, I don't. And. And, you know, I mean, my ra. My head has only so much ram for stuff. And so if there are games that I don't care about because the teams that are in my area are not going to be playing for anything significant, I can walk. Not a problem. You know, it's. You know, college football went to where the money is, and the money is in the Southeast and the Rust Belt and so good for them. You know, I think in 20 years, they're going to regret that.
- [55:08]
Dan Bernstein
Why?
- [55:09]
Ray Ratto
Because when you turn away from a market, you only have so many ways to make up the energy and the money of those markets. There's no compelling reason why the Los Angeles Basin is Big Ten country, except that their two schools went to the Big Ten. But in five years, if something else comes along, you know, that. That will pay as much if they find a new way to invent the PAC 12. You know, Oregon and Washington will bolt, you know, SC and UCLA, but UCLA might go broke by then. I mean, they're in debt up to their eyelids. It's. It's taking things. And this might be just me being an old bastard, but it's taking a thing that worked and blowing it up because it's convenient for somebody else. The Pac 12 worked. You take out UCLA and USC, okay, the money's gone. You take out Oregon and Washington, okay? Now the northwest corner of the country is gone. You know what's left? You know, Cal and Stanford belong in the ACC every bit as much as Manchester United belongs in the NHL. It doesn't make sense. And maybe I'm just not adaptive enough to that, but there are things I can no longer pretend to care about. That's one of them.
- [56:40]
Dan Bernstein
So I don't as we wrap up, I wanted to ask you about building off something you said about never do that.
- [56:50]
Ray Ratto
That's always a bad idea.
- [56:51]
Dan Bernstein
About the working alone, you said the idea of a sports columnist, writer, content creator, whatever we want to call whatever this all is of being able to work alone. And I think that goes along with the siloing of so many of these sports that if in fact you are in the Southeast and it's high school signing day. And I've, I've been in this, I worked in the Southeast, I have been in the Southeast for high school signing. And if you think the idea of a pro draft is gross, as human beings are doled out and told where they're going to be and making these decisions, even with nil, that's quite a thing. And yet there are places that specialize just in that, whether it is podcasts, YouTube channels, whatever it may be, it may be the most niche sport there is. And there is something for you. How does somebody with a position that is ostensibly a national position without a monoculture to guide taste and sensibility? How do you figure out each day? And you and your editors, when you have that zoom meeting, how do you figure out where you're going to live and what's going to resonate in a time where so many people are more alone, even as consumers, than ever?
- [58:17]
Ray Ratto
Well, we got around that problem by just saying, well, write what you're interested in. I don't have to do signing day. I never had to do signing day because I'm not interested in signing.
- [58:27]
Dan Bernstein
I just use that as sort of the ultimate example of these the distance between how much some people care and how much I don't.
- [58:34]
Ray Ratto
Well, but that's, but that's the nature of a country with 380 million people. You know, we are a culture with all of our bounty is built almost entirely on the benefits of entertainment. We are Disneyland, ocean to ocean. And so if There are only 10 million people who care about National Signing Day. Well, go ahead, care about national signing Day. There are people who will cater to your need. You know, if you only care about track and field, there are people who will cater to your need. You can find a place where that is. In that way, the market is very friendly for you. I mean, 30 years ago, the newspapers out here didn't do anything with national signing day. They didn't care. And so if you were somebody who was interested in what San Diego State signed, you had to go out of your way to find it. It was an incredibly difficult search, and you might not find that now you can find it. You just have to spend 15 minutes on the Internet to do a Google search, and you will find somebody trapped in his mother's basement doing San Diego State signing day. So for the consumer who knows what he or she wants, it's there for us. We write what we're interested in. We have people who wrote about, you know, the. The 50th series of Survivor. I mean, I would watch that only as an alternative to having a golf umbrella opened up my ass. You know, I just. I don't care for it. But the difference is, you don't spit in somebody's soup if they like something. You don't just go, oh, go be with God. I only get annoyed with people who say, you should like this. Why? If you don't have a good answer in five seconds, then I moved on. I mean, if somebody says, you should have seen that, that Leafs Bruins game two weeks ago, Tell me why. And if you've got a compelling tale, that might be something I write about. If you don't have a compelling tale, well, that's 15 seconds I can't get back, but I'll deal with it. So it just. It's. We get to pick and choose what we want for whatever reason we want. And that's one of the beauties of the place, is that you don't have to sell an idea and have it rejected because there isn't enough room in the next day's news hole. The news hole is as big as we want it to be. And so they'll say, go ahead. Good luck to you. You want to write that, you know, pro women's hockey, you know, season advance. I hope it works and it'll show up. It may get read by 15 people or maybe read by 50,000. Who knows?
- [61:44]
Dan Bernstein
It's what I love about it. It's what I love about the defectors. I know that on a given day, I can get Drew McGarry bitching about the Vikings quarterback situation. I can get David Roth somehow Channeling Trump at Mar a Lago. And I can get Sabrina Imbler telling me about the evolutionary adaptation of a cave salamander. Where else can I find that? In, you know, one click and it's all right there in front of me. And I hope and it seems that enough people are willing to pay for that same sort of excitement that I get every day.
- [62:23]
Ray Ratto
Yes. Subscribe now or you are a criminal and you should be punished as such.
- [62:28]
Dan Bernstein
There it is.
- [62:28]
Ray Ratto
Not you. I'm just saying your audience in general, if you're not subscribing now, you're a disgrace to humanity and should be jailed.
- [62:36]
Dan Bernstein
That is Ray Rattle.
- [62:38]
Ray Ratto
We are like that old National Lampoon
- [62:40]
Dan Bernstein
cover with the dog. Yes, the dog.
- [62:43]
Ray Ratto
Yes. You know, buy this magazine or we'll shoot this dog. If that wasn't the most perfect pitch in the history of American advertising, we would take it now. But it's, it's a classic that cannot be repeated. And there are fewer, fewer of those in this culture than ever before.
- [63:03]
Dan Bernstein
Well, credit to. Was it Doug Kenny and Maddie Simmons, who I think were those who created the. Buy this.
- [63:09]
Ray Ratto
Chris Miller.
- [63:10]
Dan Bernstein
Yeah, yeah. Chris Miller. Buy this magazine or we shoot this dog. Ray, this was an absolute pleasure. I know you're going to fight me on that, but it was. It was indeed. And I'm. I'm very happy to see that you're doing well. And I'm. I'm continuing to look forward to and enjoy your work. I appreciate you taking so much time for us today.
- [63:30]
Ray Ratto
Well, give it time. That feeling will pass.
- [63:33]
Dan Bernstein
That is Ray ratto of the defector.com. it is absolutely worth a couple of bucks to be a part of that kind of journalism. Thanks again, Ray.
- [63:42]
Ray Ratto
Subscribe now or we will shoot your dog.
- [63:44]
Dan Bernstein
There it is. There it is, Ray. Thank you. That's Ray Ratto. And you know that college basketball is in full swing. It's time to get in on all the action with my bookie. Don't miss it. We are down to 16. After next weekend, there's going to be four. And then eventually there shall be only one. Because the tournament is going. We've got all the screaming coaches, we have crying cheerleaders. We have shots of the parents in the stands and little kids and the surrender cobra. And that means that you've got opportunities to make things really fun. It's not just about picking winners. The prop board is loaded. Player points, team totals, futures tournament odds value, everywhere, if you're paying attention. So yum, pun in. As Terry used to say. Right now, one account, one Wallet bet the spread live bet the second half hit the casino between games. Everything lives in one place and that place MyBookie AG right now with the code DBU your first bet can be covered up to 500 bucks. If it doesn't hit you then have a bet back bonus token and you can run it back. MyBookie AG the code DBU for Dan Bernstein unfiltered, that covers your first bet up to 500 bucks. So we don't watch the madness build, we make it pay with my bookie and that leads us to our DBU picks. DBU picks presented by my bookie and this one's going to be simple I think for tonight for the Bulls and the Rockets. This should be a nice, comfortable, fun loss for the Bulls as they're still I think kind of halfway maybe trying for lottery position. And I'm going to take the plus odds I'm getting with modest Bouzelis 21 or more points tonight. Matus Buzelis, who has been emerging as the fearless scoring star. Modest bouzelis 21 or more points is my pick for DBU picks. Lock in your picks now with my bookie bet on anything, anywhere, anytime. We thank our producer Cody Delmendo today as Matty is off and settle in, by the way, for some of this long form interview stuff. We're going to have some surprises all week with some interesting things. We're going to go in some different directions and there's going to be some familiar faces and I'm looking forward to this. As much fun as we usually have, we figured this is a perfect time to maybe branch out a little bit and I hope you enjoy. We thank Giordano's. We thank Chicago Window guys and Russ Armstrong who can be reached at 847-302-9171. Obviously thanks to Ray Ratto of the Defector and we are brought to you in partnership with my bookie Dan Bernstein.
- [66:37]
Bleacher Report Announcer
Unfiltered.
- [66:38]
Dan Bernstein
Unfiltered on three. One, two. Sports.
- [66:42]
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- [67:12]
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- [67:33]
Dan Bernstein
Get real time.
- [67:34]
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