1. The English Civil War: Rising Tensions

Summary

Dan Snow's History Hit: Episode 1 - The English Civil War: Rising Tensions

In the inaugural episode of Dan Snow's History Hit, titled "The English Civil War: Rising Tensions," host Dan Snow delves into the complex prelude to one of Britain’s most tumultuous periods. Joined by historian Minu Dinshaw, the discussion intertwines personal narratives with broader historical analysis, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of the factors that led to the English Civil War.

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Introduction to the Series

Dan Snow introduces the episode as the first part of a two-episode series exploring the English Civil War, a conflict that not only divided families and friends but also shaped the future of Britain and Ireland. The series is inspired by Minu Dinshaw’s book, "Friends in Youth: Choosing Sides in the English Civil War," which chronicles the lives of two close friends who find themselves on opposing sides of the conflict.

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Political Context: The Monarchy and Parliament

Minu Dinshaw begins by outlining the political landscape of early 17th-century Britain. The era was marked by the reigns of James I and Charles I, whose strained relationships with Parliament set the stage for conflict.

• Fiscal Struggles: The monarchy faced significant financial difficulties, relying heavily on Parliament to approve taxes. This dependency created tension, especially as the Stuart kings began to assert greater control.

• Parliamentary Authority: Historically, taxes required Parliament’s consent, but by the time of the Stuarts, Parliament had gained substantial power. When the King and Parliament could not agree, it resulted in a stalemate that threatened national security.

• Archaic Expedients: In response to financial impasses, kings like Charles I resorted to medieval methods such as commissions of array and ship money—taxes initially intended for coastal defense but extended controversially to inland regions ([06:37] Minu Dinshaw).

Notable Quote:

“Ship money... extended, possibly illegally, to the inland regions of the country.” – Minu Dinshaw ([06:37])

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Religious Tensions: Religion as a Political Tool

Religion played a pivotal role in exacerbating political conflicts. Britain was divided into three kingdoms—England, Scotland, and Ireland—each with distinct religious affiliations:

• England: Dominated by an established church with growing dissenting factions.
• Scotland: Dominated by the Presbyterian Kirk with Catholic dissenters.
• Ireland: Ruled by a minority Anglican church over a largely Catholic population.

Minu emphasizes that while religious differences were significant, they often served as political justifications for deeper political struggles.

Notable Quote:

“Religion was an instrument, a weapon, often in unscrupulous hands.” – Minu Dinshaw ([04:01])

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Character Focus: Whitlock and Hyde

The episode introduces Bulstrode Whitlock and Ned Hyde, two friends from upper-middle-class backgrounds who become central figures in the unfolding drama:

• Bulstrode Whitlock: Hails from Henley, near London, with a successful legal background. He is portrayed as a brilliant and gifted lawyer, deeply involved with Parliament.

• Ned Hyde: Originates from Wiltshire, coming from a less successful legal family. More inclined towards poetry, literature, and history, Hyde reluctantly becomes a lawyer. Despite their different inclinations, their friendship endures as they navigate the political landscape.

Minu describes them as intelligent, ambitious young men eager to influence national policy but ultimately caught in the escalating conflict.

Notable Quote:

“They've got these contradictory impulses where they're both enjoying and appreciating the long peace, but also feeling that sense of civic frustration and ambition.” – Minu Dinshaw ([14:04])

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Escalation to Conflict: From Tensions to Rebellion

Several key events precipitated the move from political tension to armed conflict:

• Religious Reforms: The imposition of the King’s Prayer Book in Scotland led to widespread resentment and rebellion, exemplified by the incident of Jenny Geddes throwing a stool in defiance ([17:14] Minu Dinshaw).

• Military Mismanagement: The King's poor military decisions, including the appointment of ineffective commanders like the Earl of Holland, diminished royalist effectiveness and morale.

• Parliamentary Actions: Leaders like John Pym began to assert greater control within Parliament, pushing for reforms and resisting the King's attempts to bypass legislative authority ([07:13] Minu Dinshaw).

Notable Quote:

“The immortal struggle between the King and Parliament, driven by financial necessity and reinforced by ideological divides, set the stage for war.” – Narrative Summary

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Key Events Leading to War

1. First Bishops' War: Sparked by the King’s religious reforms, resulting in Scottish rebellion and increased financial strain on the monarchy.

2. Dismissal of Parliament: Charles I's frustration with an assertive Parliament led to the dismissal of the 1640 Parliament. This act was opposed by Whitlock and Hyde, who saw it as a threat to national stability.

3. Execution of Strafford: The Parliamentarians, influenced by personal and political vendettas, orchestrated the execution of the King’s minister, Earl of Strafford. This event highlighted the deepening divide and the erosion of mutual trust.

Notable Quote:

“Our friends absolutely united on what will later come to be seen as very much the anti-royalist cause...” – Minu Dinshaw ([24:29])

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Parliament vs. Royalist Strategies

• Parliamentary Reforms: Parliament aimed to abolish extrajudicial courts and eliminate corrupt practices, aligning with Whitlock and Hyde’s ideals for a more equitable governance structure.

• Royalist Responses: The King, grappling with financial and military inadequacies, increasingly relied on traditional methods and propaganda to maintain authority, often clashing with emerging parliamentary figures like Whitlock.

Notable Quote:

“They hate the Civil War; they want to stop it. It was an atrocity and a sort of act of national self-harm.” – Minu Dinshaw ([15:57])

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The King's Desperate Moves

Charles I’s attempts to assert his authority culminated in his infamous entrance into Parliament to arrest five members, a move that symbolized his desperate bid to reclaim control but ultimately backfired, further alienating him from Parliamentary leaders.

Notable Quote:

“He had the worst of all worlds. He failed to get what he called his birds. They were allowed to escape...” – Minu Dinshaw ([41:18])

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Conclusion: Brink of Civil War

As tensions reached their peak by the summer of 1642, both sides were mobilizing for imminent conflict. Whitlock and Hyde, despite their friendship, found themselves entrenched on opposing sides, reflecting the broader societal divisions.

Notable Quote:

“It is strange to note how we have insensibly slid into this beginning of a civil war by one unexpected accident after another...” – Bulstrode Whitlock ([50:17])

Dan Snow wraps up the episode by setting the stage for the next installment, which will explore the outbreak of the Civil War, the ensuing battles, and the ultimate fates of both the nation and the two friends.

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Key Takeaways

• The English Civil War was a result of intertwined political and religious tensions exacerbated by the Stuart monarchy’s financial mismanagement.

• Personal relationships, such as that between Bulstrode Whitlock and Ned Hyde, provide a human lens through which the broader historical events can be understood.

• The breakdown of trust between the King and Parliament was marked by strategic moves, propaganda, and pivotal events like the execution of Strafford and the King's failed arrest of Parliamentary members.

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Further Reading

To gain a deeper understanding of the personal dimensions within the English Civil War, consider reading Minu Dinshaw’s book:

"Friends in Youth: Choosing Sides in the English Civil War"

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Stay Tuned: The second episode of this series will delve into the outbreak of the Civil War, detailing the initial battles and the dramatic developments that followed.

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Notable Quotes from the Episode:

1. Minu Dinshaw at [06:37]:

   “Ship money... extended, possibly illegally, to the inland regions of the country.”

2. Minu Dinshaw at [04:01]:

   “Religion was an instrument, a weapon, often in unscrupulous hands.”

3. Minu Dinshaw at [14:04]:

   “They've got these contradictory impulses where they're both enjoying and appreciating the long peace, but also feeling that sense of civic frustration and ambition.”

4. Minu Dinshaw at [24:29]:

   “Our friends absolutely united on what will later come to be seen as very much the anti-royalist cause…”

5. Minu Dinshaw at [41:18]:

   “He had the worst of all worlds. He failed to get what he called his birds. They were allowed to escape…”

6. Bulstrode Whitlock at [50:17]:

   “It is strange to note how we have insensibly slid into this beginning of a civil war by one unexpected accident after another…”

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Contact & Subscribe:

For more in-depth historical explorations, subscribe to Dan Snow's History Hit and engage with the community:

• Email: [e-mail]
• Subscribe: History Hit Subscription

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essential discussions and insights from the first episode of the series.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

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[Minu Dinshaw]

Acast Powers the World's best Podcasts Here's.

[Dan Snow]

A show that we recommend.

[Knox or Jamie]

Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff. Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners for their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. And we end every episode with recommendations on all the best new movies, books, TV shows or music. To find out more, just search up the Podcast With Knox and Jamie wherever you listen to podcasts and prepare to make Wednesday your new favorite day of the week.

[Minu Dinshaw]

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[Dan Snow]

Hello everybody. Welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. I've got another short series for you today. First of two episodes on the English Civil War, a period in British and Irish history where families and friends were pitted against one another, fighting for opposing visions of the country's future. Joining me is the brilliant Minu Dinshaw. He just published Friends in Youth Choosing Sides in the English Civil War. And he's written a book about two very close friends who joined opposing sides in the war and try to navigate their country back to peace. And I thought what we'd get him to do for this series is embed his story of his two friends in the wider tale of the war. So this first episode is all about the backdrop, the context, the buildup to Civil war, why it happened, how something apparently unimaginable came to be, and there's a lesson in there for all societies. Episode two is out on Wednesday and that takes us through the first Civil War itself. We sketch out the main battles where the Royalists and the Parliamentarians, the Roundheads and the Cavaliers, went head to head. Make sure you tune in to listen to that one as well. This series was another listener request. It was a request from Sarah Wright. So thank you Sarah for reaching out. And everyone else, please keep on Sending in those suggestions. One day they too might become an episode of the podcast. But for now, here is our first EP on the Civil War. Enjoy.

[Minu Dinshaw]

T minus 10 atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima. God save the King.

[Knox or Jamie]

No black white unity till there is first some black unity. Never to go to war with one another again.

[Minu Dinshaw]

And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Dan Snow]

Minu, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Thank you for having me.

[Dan Snow]

Well, we're going to try and do the impossible here. It's mission impossible. We're going to try and tell the story of what we could loosely call the first Civil War, the period leading up to it and then its outbreak. And we're going to do it over two episodes and be very, very exciting indeed. Thanks for joining me on this advent.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Total pleasure.

[Dan Snow]

Now, the hardest question that I have ever wrestled with is sort of religion in the mid 17th century and then politics as well. So a bit of a warning coming up, folks, but what is the political context here? What is going on with the English monarchy? And of course we're going to remember the fact that he's. He's also king of Ireland and king of Scotland at the same time. So what's going on with the sort of British and Irish monarchies at this time that makes them, well, vulnerable to this kind of rebellion? Or was it just bad luck? Was it just a bit of bad personality and a bit of bad bit of timing? Is there something more substantial going on beneath the surface?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, of course, it's always all of the above, isn't it? And I suppose in the story that I've been inhabiting through these two friends, the politics takes precedent over the religion and the religion at times comes across almost like a political pretext. Nonetheless, it is a fact, as you implied, that we have here three kingdoms different in their religious natures. We have England with a dominant established church, but a substantial and growing dissenting wing. We have Scotland with the kirk, the mont plain hot Protestant kirk, and also Catholic dissenters. We have Ireland with a minority state church ruling over a Catholic population. So each of these kingdoms are innately different, but in a way that leads us back to politics. Insofar as religion is important, it is important for political reasons. And it certainly became my contention, seen through the eyes of my two protagonists, that religion was an instrument, a weapon, often in unscrupulous hands.

[Dan Snow]

Well, that's interesting. That makes one think about the 30 years war that was raging in, in Europe at the same time, when things are said about some of the. Some of the protagonists in that particular war as well. So, okay, so let's talk about the politics. First of all, off the back of Elizabeth's glorious, quote unquote reign, there were profound problems, weren't there, with the English state, in particular, the money? They were quite poor, weren't they, the English monarch?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes. And also the way in which they had garnered fiscal liquidity was by using Parliament. Something that, on the whole, went smoothly under the Tudors and began to go less smoothly under the Stuarts, to the point where legitimate taxes were raised through Parliament. And if the King and Parliament fell out, then you reach this critical impasse, for instance, where control of the army was associated by law and tradition, by definition, with the Crown. But if the King was not being given any money to pay the army by Parliament, you ended up with this sort of rock, paper, scissors situation where both Parliament and King unable to force a compromise that would make the country's military capacity, the country's security, run normally.

[Dan Snow]

And you talk about legitimate taxes. So is it just increasing, sort of convention, a tradition that all taxes have to be approved by Parliament, or are there certain taxes that only Parliament can choose, but certain, that are connected with the Crown, for example, regulation of trade or exile or something like that? Or is it becoming now the norm that every piece of money raising has to be with the approval of Parliament?

[Minu Dinshaw]

It's certainly the norm. The primary form of taxation is subsidies granted to the King by Parliament. And when the King's relations with Parliament go south to such a very extreme extent, the King is resorting to what many people view as archaic or legally overreaching expedients that predate this level of power in Parliament, to medieval commissions of array to raise troops, and famously to ship money, which was a coastal tax that the King could raise to deal with pirates and so on, but is extended, possibly illegally, to the inland regions of the country.

[Dan Snow]

So that's the new Stuart kings do that, particularly Charles I. Let's just come on to the Stuarts. Why are relations between Parliament and James I and his son Charles I? Why do they just seem more fraught than under Elizabeth? What's happened there?

[Minu Dinshaw]

I think it is to some degree a case of culture shock. Scottish Parliament was far less important and powerful in Scotland. I suppose the most powerful part of the body politic had for some time been the nobility and the Kirk. The King was trying his best to control his nobles and his rather frightening clerics, but not worrying about Parliament too much. He was used perhaps to regarding Parliament as upper servants, whereas the irony was that the English Parliament had been such useful upper servants to the Tudors that it had gained a great measure of power and therefore they weren't quite speaking the same language. However, I would say that under James, things did not approach complete breakdown, and under Charles you started getting almost changes in the very definition of what Parliament was. The origins of our ideas of government versus opposition of parties, of governing party all emerge in this period. Parliament was supposed to be a theoretically unanimous body that always gave the King united advice. It was treasonous to suggest that Parliament could break down in schism. And yet this was the time where this polite fiction could no longer be perpetuated, especially over a critical debate that will come to the Grand Remonstrance, where you very clearly have Parliament dividing into two factions.

[Dan Snow]

I've always thought religion helps to explain that sort of schism, but let's put the individuals back in. What about the character of Charles I? There's such a debate over whether he was just a man struggling to deal with this kind of evangelical, almost religious extremism that was suddenly breaking over him like a wave, or other people to say he was absolutely bloody useless. Where do you come down on sort of his role in deepening this conflict that would eventually lead to war?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, one of the many things that draws me to my two protagonists is that I found their attitude to the King fascinatingly united. They both see him as conscientious, attractive, theoretically decent and able and intelligent monarch who is badly advised, of course, the ancient trope of the wicked advisors. But in Hyde's case, he very much sees the King as led astray, in particular by his Catholic wife. But they both find the King a decent character doing his best. When it comes to Charles, they don't fault his character. They do, however, see him as easily influenced by wrong UN's. And in terms of, was he dealing with bad faith extremists? Yes, I think he was. I think in the case of leaders in the Commons like John Pym, their situation politically, financially and in terms of their physical peril was going to be pretty bad unless they could force a proper break with the King and wrench power off him. Their interest was very much not in reaching a compromise.

[Dan Snow]

People talk about a lot about the divine right of kings, this theory of absolutist monarchy that was very attractive to the Stuarts and particularly Charles I. Again trying to make Charles more of an active participant in the breakdown of relations. Did he believe that he'd been divinely ordained? Did he believe this any more than the Tudors or the monarchs that would come after him.

[Minu Dinshaw]

I think the answer is that he did sometimes. Neither of our main friends, protagonists saw monarchy in that way and both of them tried to influence him away from that doctrine. It was, of course, quite a recent doctrine. It had been codified, among others, by the King's father, James. It was not of indigenous or ancient English or British origin. It was a sort of product of the Reformation. Sometimes you found that the divinely sanctioned monarch was a Protestant idea, or even and denied by Catholics. It's a complex question, but both Hyde and Whitlock were much more attracted to the older idea of the mixed monarchy, the free estates of the realm, the King, the lords, the Commons working together in harmony. And that was the sort of more traditional idea that they both worked and hoped to restore.

[Dan Snow]

And so Charles I comes to the throne. He attempts, doesn't he, to rule without Parliament. How does he do that?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, initially, he comes to the throne on a wave of bellicose enthusiasm about fighting the Spanish, about the failed marriage arrangement with the Spanish. His father's favorite, the Duke of Buckingham, is still his favorite. And Charles and Buckingham are very popular, warlike Protestants also riding to the rescue of Charles's dethroned Protestant sister in Central Europe. It goes terribly badly. They find themselves at war with both Spain and France. It's a disaster. And Charles realizes that he just doesn't have the ability to make Parliament biddable and to have money and to wage war successfully. And so the best thing to do is not to bother with Parliament, with it as a source of cash, or with war. And that ensues this long period of renowned peace, which even my parliamentarian protagonist, Whitlock, can't help being rather attracted to, a time where there are all kinds of things simmering under the surface. But the country is peaceful. Elites are enjoying an extraordinary cultural life of poetry, masks. There's a sort of general tranquility and prosperity and such a relief after two very badly managed wars.

[Dan Snow]

So Charles almost kind of calls the bluff of Parliament, says, well, if you're not going to vote me the tax I want, then I won't engage in the sort of swashbuckling Protestant interventions to save our allies on the continent and elsewhere. And actually both sides are sort of reasonably happy with this. But, I mean, there must be a parliamentary critique of Charles's determination not to even summon Parliament.

[Minu Dinshaw]

I think it's very much a subterranean river of ambition and dissatisfaction, one that you can see definitely affects our two bright upper middle class, pushy, ambitious young men who both want to have a slice of the sort of power and voice in the nation's Senate that their fathers and uncles had access to, but find themselves locked out by this strange historical anomaly of extended rule without Parliament. So both of them, you see this contradictory impulse where they're both enjoying and appreciating the long piece, but also feeling that sense of civic frustration and ambition. Absolutely. They represent a huge body of intelligent, busy, locked out gentry wanting to have more influence.

[Dan Snow]

Let's talk about those two men now. You've mentioned them, you've mentioned them a couple of times. Let's get into it. They're both upper middle class. Where are they from and how do they know each other?

[Minu Dinshaw]

So Whitlock's from just outside London in Henley, where his father amasses estates. He's from a legal family, but crucially, his father is quite a brilliant younger son who has made a fortune and become a judge. So although there are lots of lawyers on both sides of the country, the father is very much a sort of meritocratic, brilliant prodigy. Hyde is also from a legal family, in his case from Wiltshire. His father is quite the opposite of Whitlock's father. Never got on with the law, but took any means he could to escape from his profession, eventually settled down happily in the country, married a rich heiress. And Ned Hyde, although forced to become a lawyer by the death of an elder brother, rather shares his attitude to the law. Initially, he's much more drawn to poetry, to literature, to history, and he's a more reluctant lawyer. However, the two friends, Whitlock, who like his father is a brilliant, gifted lawyer by nature, and Hyde, who is perhaps more drawn to culture, literature, history, theology. They do meet at the ends of court and for whatever reason become inseparable. But they have a good amount of friends and eventually ideals in common.

[Dan Snow]

Where do they start to diverge in those ideals? Are they in agreement during the long period of Charles the First not summoning Parliament?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, my feeling became that the central tragedy of this story was that to the extent that they ever disagreed, they didn't in a way diverge more and more. The situation divided them, but there were subtle political and religious differences between them throughout. But those differences remained subtle. Fundamentally, they were on the same side. They continued to be on the same side. They hated the Civil War, they wanted to stop it. It was an atrocity and a sort of act of national self harm.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, interesting. So let's say early 1630s. They want parliament to be called. They want to take their place in it and argue and win Eternal renown.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Exactly. You're so right. And I think we both glimpsed them together in a fascinating moment in history. In the summer of 1628, not long before the assassination of the royal favorite, the Duke of Buckingham, which will change everything. But we see Whitlock and Hyde and their friends at the house of a mysterious landlady on Fleet street where Whitlock was born. Incidentally, Mrs. Percy and what these friends are doing are they're having satirical debate pretending to be members of the hated Star chamber extra parliamentary judicial court, which was regarded as handing out very harsh punishments. It was an instrument of the crown to oppress the people in the eyes of many. And Whitlock, Hyde and their friends were making joking speeches, pretending to be lawyers acting in the star chamber at Mrs. Percy's. That's how we first see them almost. You could imagine them as a pair of sort of Richard Ingrams types, minor public school boys running private eye, making jokes about the government, that kind of thing.

[Dan Snow]

How does that turn into serious political crisis, let alone war armies crisscrossing English soil? What's the process?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, a lot of blame or credit has traditionally been given to a figure who may never have existed. A herbs woman in Edinburgh called Jenny Geddes, who threw a stool at the dean of St. Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh, where the King's Prayer Book, an Anglican Church of England high church prayer book, was being imposed on the Scots. And I suppose that that leads us to the figure of Archbishop Laud, the King's favorite prelate, closely connected both Whitlock and Hyde, at whose feet arguably a lot of the intensification of this drama should be put. But yes, that led to a Scottish rebellion, a need for the King to have some money and recall Parliament and knock on results.

[Dan Snow]

Yes, so, so this, this riot that begins with these women in the center of Edinburgh, you can still go to where it all began today. It turns into a full rebellion against these religious reforms. The King's introducing the kind of high church Anglican style prayer book in Scotland which the Scots absolutely hated. And because you've now got war, war's expensive. And so the King who's been tinkering around and inventing these rather unpopular, but sort of reluctantly obeyed taxes all over the place, like shit money and things, they're no longer able to cover the cost of this serious outbreak of violence.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes, the King also makes poor decisions about his commanders. Of course, we go back to the personal and the political. The King decides rather than putting the stodgy Protestant, rather popular, continentally experienced Earl of Essex in charge, to put the Earl of Holland in charge, who's a sort of very slippery, charming character who gets on with his wife, the Earl Holland completely falls for a Scottish trick and retreats, even though he possibly had the numbers to prevail. But all this is also with an army that's ill equipped and with low morale because of the lack of parliamentary cash. There are two major bishops wars before the Civil War breaks out. One thing I find interesting about it is that a close. An important mutual friend of my two main characters, Lord Falkland, who will emerge as the key moderate Royalist, fights as a volunteer with Lord Essex against the Scots. And a real sense of division in England. On the one hand, a lot of people don't really see the point of a war with the Scots over an unpopular religious cause. But on the other hand, many people, including Essex, despite his later parliamentary career, including both our characters, despite. Despite Whitlock's parliamentarian allegiance, they regard the Scots as foreign rebels against their natural prince and they think they should be put down. So you have a genuinely divided country about what to do about the Scots.

[Dan Snow]

But it is true that Charles could have broken the tradition of the King's dependence on Parliament had he not footled around with religious reforms. At the same time, if he just tried to be a little bit passive, let things run on, then slowly people would have, potentially, would they, like as happened in France, almost forgotten about the parliamentary tradition.

[Minu Dinshaw]

I don't disagree. And I think the key comparison here is with his father, who, if you like, had much worse bark than bite. He talked a good or bad game about the divine right of kings. He wrote books about that, among other things, about witchcraft, about tobacco. You know, he was a gobby chap, but he was actually a wise old bird who'd survived a very tough childhood and a long reign in Scotland, who knew when not to push things too far. And Charles, and particularly laud at his elbow, lacked this sense of. Of tact and prudence.

[Dan Snow]

So they drive through these religious reforms, drive Scotland into open revolt, Scotland invades north of England and the King's armies are unable to stop them. So cash is a sinews of war. He's got to ask for some money.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes, and our friends are absolutely thrilled at the recall of Parliament. This despite, as I say, that they had appreciated the long peace. This for them is the real thing, the moment to enter history, to put their country right and to help get their king and Parliament unkinked, working together and themselves doing very well in the process.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, absolutely. Not imagining that you're on the brink of civil war, presumably?

[Minu Dinshaw]

No, in fact, they're thinking this country has a few problems. It could be so much better with a more sympathetic ministry, including us, and a better ruled king. We can improve things. We can improve the religious settlement, the political settlement, the judicial settlement. Both of them are lawyers, of course. We can stop all these abuses by corrupt courts getting around Parliament. We can make everything splendid and dandy. That's what they're thinking at this point. Absolutely.

[Dan Snow]

Few little tweaks. Reorder things in a way more conducive, more aligned with our views and we'll advance. The sunlit uplands feels very, very relatable. So at 1640, you've got a foreign occupying army. The Scots are occupying bits of northeast England. Charles is out of options. He's gotta go and ask his people, he's gotta ask Parliament for money. What happens then?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, the leader of Parliament emerges as this man, John Pym, who's a master of procedure, very experienced, rather low on cash and high on debt, not perhaps an orator of style or flair, but one of immense stamina. And to young cubs like Hyde and Whitlock, Pim is an obvious leader. They all get on with him, especially Hyde. Interestingly, of the two of them is personally close to Pim and his very rich right hand man, John Hampton. So Pym very much sets the agenda and as a result, the King is frustrated by this Parliament and soon, crucially, dismisses it. Hyde is horrified by the dismissal of this first Parliament. He goes to his friend, Archbishop the Lord and pleads, saying, you'll never get a more loyal Parliament than this one. This is the best that the King is likely to expect.

[Dan Snow]

And why does the King dismiss it? Because they want to give him the money without lots of annoying strings attached. They want a secret rest for various things that have gone on and do the things that Parliament does.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Exactly. So to take one small example, the one in which Hyde first comes prominence in that short Parliament, he goes after one of these corrupt extra parliamentary courts, the Earl Marshal's court. Now, the Earl Marshal is an ancient noble Earl of Arundel who Hyde gets on badly, personally, as luck would have it, a very distinguished collector of art, but in political terms, racking up enormous fines and lots of corrupt cash by quibbling about people's heraldry. And Hyde makes a very amusing speech about sort of boatmen being punished for having a swan rather than a goose on their banners and stuff like. And it goes down very well with the House. And Pym sees Hyde as a starry young performer on his side. So they've got grievances like this. Hyde in particular is after the extrajudicial courts. But there is one big grievance that will wait for the next Parliament, which is that they all both hate and crucially fear the King's most effective minister, the Earl of Strafford.

[Dan Snow]

Oh, yes, so poor old Strafford. So this Parliament is dismissed quite quickly by the King, but he's forced to call another one. Why?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, it's still an insoluble Rubik's Cube that Scots are wreaking havoc, that there's no other answer. He also has the example of Strafford, who's been an excellent henchman, first in the north of England and then crucially in Ireland. And Strafford has succeeded in producing in Ireland a biddable Parliament and a surplus of money. So Strafford, among others, but crucially, Strafford is urging the King to keep going with the Parliament option and saying that between them they'll sort out Parliament and get a decent measure of cash and obedience out of it.

[Dan Snow]

Well, instead, Strafford gets something very different from Parliament. So this second meeting of Parliament, what happens in that one?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, I find this fascinating because this is, I think, the moment where you see our friends absolutely united on what will later come to be seen as very much the anti royalist cause, because Hyde and his equally royalist friend Falkland, their fingerprints are all over the prosecution of Strafford, often for quite petty and personal factional reasons that date back to the ascendancy of Buckingham. Essentially, Hyde, Falkland, a lot of their friends, and indeed Whitlock and a lot of his friends are leftovers from the Buckingham faction. Strafford came to power as a Chief Minister, as an anti Buckingham sort of chap. So there are a lot of scores being settled here. And it's actually a case of seeing good men do something more important and consequential than they realize for ambitious and petty reasons. I think it's the moment where I find my protagonists attractive, but it's the moment where they let their own ideals down in the way in which they.

[Dan Snow]

Dispose of Strafford and they do dispose of Strafford. They do not like that they, as you say that it's the ancient cliche, we like the King, but we don't like his advisors. And so Strafford becomes the conduit for everything that's gone wrong over the previous years, or nearly everything. And Parliament have him executed, basically, they.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Have him executed by a tinder, which does not require a guilty verdict proven in court after a farcically collapsed prosecution presided over by none other than our friend Bulstrode Whitlock. Bulstrode Whitlock himself feels lastingly guilty and uneasy about this prosecution for the rest of his life, and always avoided prosecuting another capital case. But Hyde is also involved in an attempted compromise that would have seen Strafford escape with his life and maybe escape into banishment without any offices. But that also falls through with the Earl of Essex incredibly, memorably saying, stone dead hath no fellow.

[Dan Snow]

About Strafford, at least the Dan Snow's history we're talking about the Civil War. More coming up After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal is a podcast that delves into the dark side of history. Expect murder and conspiracy. Ghosts, ghosts and witches. I'm Anthony Delaney. And I'm Maddy Pelling. We're historians and the hosts of After Dark. From History hit, where every Monday and Thursday, we enter the shadows of the.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Past, discover the secrets of the darker side of history. On After Dark From History hit wherever.

[Dan Snow]

You get your podcast. What begins as sort of a grievance, bit of political wrangling, trying to sort of outmaneuver Strafford for ideological reasons, but also, as you point out, through sort of because of personal, almost tribal reasons, you end up killing the man. Is that a symbol that things are spiralling? Are positions hardening up?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Absolutely. I think you can see it in the rhetoric in Strafford's extraordinary speeches in his defense, where he points out that some of the very feeble evidence being used against him is based on private conversations. He says society would become a wilderness, a hermitage, if everyone was afraid to speak in private to each other over matters like that. And Oliver St. John, one of his chief prosecutors, describes finishing off Strafford as being like finishing off savage beasts of prey, foxes, you know, sort of wind in the willows, stoats and weasels type thing. And. Or in Bevan, he compares Strafford to vermin. So there's a coarsening of rhetoric and a deficit on mercy. Absolutely.

[Dan Snow]

Okay. Coarsening on rhetoric that seems strange, worryingly familiar. What else is going on, as well as trying to sort of isolate and neutralise Strafford. What is this Parliament doing? And you've hinted at earlier, but what is this big sort of other list of grievances that they're presenting to Charles before they're going to give him any money to deal with the Scots?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, shit, money is absolutely dealt with. And again, all of our main Characters, Hyde, Whitlock, Falkland, are intimately involved with that. No more shit money, no more extrajudicial courts, including the Court of the north, which Strafford came to prominence as the president of. And not all of the extra parliamentary courts are got rid of, but most of them are. There's a strange survival in Wales, for instance, the Court of Marches, but I think that that lasts to the late 17th century or something, but just an oddity, but most of them are got rid of.

[Dan Snow]

And so these are these strange bodies that have been reanimated and used by Charles and Strafford to try and sidetrack Parliament and raise money through taxation to give the Crown independence from Parliament.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes, and also in other matters as well, most notably the case of William Prynne, who was tried in the Star Chamber for his libel of the Queen. It was felt that he'd implied she was a, quote unquote, notorious whore because of his fondness for amateur dramaticals. This is an interesting case because it's one in which Hyde and Whitlock emerged literally on stage, because they both arrange the mask which lawyers put on to say sorry, essentially for the outrageous behavior of a brother lawyer, William Prynne, in calling the Queen a notorious whore.

[Dan Snow]

Yes. As well as raising money, it's almost a sort of shadow, an alternative administration where the King is able to harass political enemies, raise money, all of it outside that traditional institutions of judiciary and Parliament.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Absolutely. And especially because of Hyde, interestingly, rather than Whitlock, many of these courts are now no more after the good work done, which Hyde is very proud of early in 1641. In fact, on the day where he fails to broker the compromise to spare Strafford, is also the day when he oversees the final abolition of the Court of the North.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, so from the Parliamentary point of view, there's some much needed clarifying, really, about how Britain is to be won. Charles is not enjoying this experience. What's he objecting to most? Just being told what to do, full stop. The fact that his advisors are being stripped from his side and executed, dragged out and had their heads chopped off. What's Charles thinking during all this?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Even worse than the execution of Strafford, I think, for him is the case of church reform. And this is what causes Hyde to begin to drift back over to the King's side and ultimately Falkland. With Strafford gone, the attention of Parliament shifts to the question of church reform and especially issues such as whether bishops should be allowed to vote in the Lords. They've essentially been functioning as a pro Crown Trade Union, a block vote that enables the King to get his will in the Lords. And again for political reasons buttressed by religious concerns. Bishops are associated with old Catholic hierarchy, with potpourri. Now, good old Queen Elizabeth, loved by all these Puritans, had no problem with bishops. But even though we have plenty of evidence that Pym was, for example, was not in his religious preferences, particularly concerned about bishops for political reasons, it's very successful for the parliamentarian leaders to amp up anti bishop animus among the puritan populace of the City of London and go after the bishops. And this is what proves too much for the King and increasingly for many more moderate royalist leaning MPs such as Hyde.

[Dan Snow]

So this is an interesting example. Where are we slightly reaching outside the very, very senior elite of the kingdom here you talk about the population of London. What do we mean by that? The people of London. And so it was seen as useful, was it, to have the street on your side to generate a little bit of energy, little bit of noise?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, of course we're in an era where printing has become newly important and while there's no real way of knowing fundamentally what the majority of people in the country at large for it, it is clear that the majority of people in the city tended towards religious puritanism. That said, even the city did go back and forth. You got a royalist resurgence, a royalist Lord Mayor after Charles went to Scotland to try and sort things out diplomatically, then returned to the city. He was greeted with great joy and the Royalist election swung to his side. But the city did tend towards the parliamentarian and perhaps small p Puritan cause. The city's allegiance continues to be an open question actually into the Civil War, which we can return to.

[Dan Snow]

But it was thought by some of those in Parliament, so exploiting this anti bishop sense, they felt, oh, it's quite nice to have a bit of energy on the streets of London, the wind at our back as we're having these debates within Parliament, for example.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, they could certainly impose a measure of pressure and fear. The minority that was against them, for instance, the defenders of Strafford were completely character assassinated as Straffordians enemies of their country. And it's very interesting to see the minority that did dare to stand with Strafford. Hyde was not among them. And some unexpected people were, for instance, the great lawyer authority parliamentarian John Selden, mentor of both Hyde and Whitlock, was firmly a Straffordian because he could see in legal terms there was no case against Strafford. And he spoke the Truth, he wasn't going to be intimidated by some mob. But often you find future royalists stayed quiet and voted for Strafford's death, while future parliamentarians in a few cases pointed out the problems of the case.

[Dan Snow]

But you mentioned the mob. You might get a few windows broken if you were on the wrong side of that argument, according to the Street.

[Minu Dinshaw]

I think it would have been terrifying. Yes. I mean, your name would have been known and shouted. You would have been identified with Popery. This sort of nebulous concept, a slightly asceticizing high church with some vaguely more Catholic resembling doctrine, becomes conflated with allegiance to the actual Pope. A lot of tiring with rather unjustified brushes going on.

[Dan Snow]

Okay, so Charles is willing to, you know, compromise on some of these things and talk to them about tax raising measures and his ability to prosecute people, etc. But he's getting increasingly annoyed. But their list of grievances seems to be expanding. Does it? Because they're now moving into church reform. And at some stage, Charles, what? He just draws the line, Say, I'm no longer prepared to keep giving up parts of my power.

[Minu Dinshaw]

I think it's not so much Charles drawing the line, but even more interestingly, a large section of the Commons itself drawing the line. Now, many lords are already on the King's side. The Commons is the crucial question here. We get to this point where the Commons essentially splits halfway down the middle. There's also a rebellion in Ireland now caused, among other things, by the death of Strafford, an effective governor of Ireland. So there are two rebellions going up. Even more need for troops to repress these rebellions. No question of how to pay for them, a question of who should command troops, whether the generals should be nominated by the Crown or by Parliament. So much is going on, and at this point, Pym is trying to burn further bridges by dredging up more old grievances in this document called the Grand Remonstrance, which is a huge list of complaints about the King's misgovernment put in a very tactless, blunt, aggressive fashion. And there's a crucial debate where Hyde emerges and is sort of talent spotted almost by the King and his advisors as the leader of the members of the Commons who are sympathetic to the King. And it's only won by pym's side by 11 votes. So it's really a handful that could go either way. And so the point is, in a way, the King has achieved a propaganda victory here. The extremism of Pym and His friends has led almost half of the Commons of what was once a pretty united, reforming Commons to think that the King's case has some merit.

[Dan Snow]

And one of those men is Hyde.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Absolutely. In fact, arguably the most consequential.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, but his old buddy has gone the other way.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes, but it's a very narrow thing. And in the case of the Grand Remonstrance debate itself, although we can't know for sure, it seems to me fairly clear that Whitlock and Hyde voted on the same side, both against the Grand Remonstrance. It's another later debate that, by a absolute wafer Finn degree, gets Whitlock back onto Pym's team. That debate is the debate over the militia, who should ultimately nominate commanders to deal with Irish rebellions and so on. Whether the nation's sword should be in the royal hand or the Parliament's hand. And in this debate, Whitlock actually attempts to engineer a compromise answer. So even in that debate, he doesn't firmly nail his colors to Parliament's mast. He tries to come up with a peaceful option that will please everyone. He fails very honorably. Whereas Hyde commits to the King and to the tradition whereby the King has always had control, by definition, of his office, over the nation's armed forces, at.

[Dan Snow]

Least to Dan Snow's history, we're talking about the Civil War. More coming up. When you're talking about who's in charge of the armed forces, you are beginning to get into some pretty dangerous territory, aren't you?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Absolutely. I mean, you mentioned the 30 Years War earlier. We're talking about a kingdom, a militarily inexperienced kingdom. We've got a few ramshackle sailors who've had bad times in wars with France and Spain, but basically the kingdom has been at peace for an awfully long time. And the Thirty Years War, meanwhile, has been not yet called the Thirty Years War. A nameless religious monstrosity of a war has been blazing throughout Germany. And now people like Whitlock conjure in their speeches, they conjure the ghosts of ancient Rome through texts like Lucan, the Roman Civil wars, and also they're always aware of the Continental Civil Wars. They warn of what will happen if this is imported to England. They warn with extraordinary and a depressing prophecy of mercenaries burning down your farmsteads and ravishing your wives.

[Dan Snow]

But hang on, why has this escalated so quickly? At what stage do you think they opened their minds to the fact? I mean, admittedly, there was a war going on British soil. The Scots were occupying the northeast of England, but the Idea of a civil war, where does that really. Can you identify where that begins?

[Minu Dinshaw]

The civil war in England itself is a remarkably late development, I think. I think very late into the summer of 1642. Parliamentarian politicians and MPs are still claiming that they don't see any real prospect of conflict with the King, that they think it's all a game of poker, that the King will surely back down. So you have the King issuing his medieval archaic commissions of array. On the one hand, you have Parliament pushing through a technically illegal militia ordinance with no consent from the King, on the other. So they both have these incomplete legal instruments to raise forces. Whichever side you're on, you're illegal according to how things have always been done. There's certainly no talk ever of getting rid of the King, with the exception of one extraordinary and eccentric man, oddly enough, a close friend of Hyde's, initially called Harry Martin, who's a sort of notorious free thinking drunk. And says what? One man is not wise enough to govern the kingdom, but everyone writes him off as a maniac. Everyone else is just talking about how we get the King and Parliament to work together.

[Dan Snow]

Well, you took us to the summer of 1642. I'm just going to drag you slightly back now because after the Grand Remonstrance, you know, huge debate, we do have the King dashing into Parliament itself to arrest people, which is usually seen as one of the great milestones. What happens there?

[Minu Dinshaw]

That's quite right. And it's fascinating because the King had just taken the step of making Hyde's a close friend, the extremely moderate and reluctant royalist Falkland and another ally of theirs, Culpepper. He'd made them ministers underneath him, and yet at the same time he embraced this course that they considered disastrous and detestable of attempting to arrest five members of the Commons and also one member of the Lords. A totally cack handed operation. If it had gone well, it would have still been outrageous, but it might have strengthened his position. In fact, he had the worst of all worlds. He failed to get what he called his birds. They were allowed to escape partly by the cunning contrivance of the Speaker Lent hall, who I think is a fascinating figure who arguably continues to assist people he likes on both sides. I think he might have slightly winked at Hyde's escape from Parliament later. I see him as a, a brave human and undoctrinaire figure. But the birds were allowed to fly. The King played his hand. He played it badly. Why did he play that hand? Rumors are extremely contorted. There are many Possible culprits involved. One is an extraordinary character in many ways, the Boris Johnson of the age, called Lord Digby. Another is the Queen and the circle around her. Another is the King's drunken Scottish childhood friend, friend Will Murray. We don't quite know how the story leaked and the arrest was frustrated, but there are a dozen explanations.

[Dan Snow]

So the King gallops into Parliament. Is it right? No sovereign has ever stepped foot in the House of Commons since that moment?

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes, I believe it is.

[Dan Snow]

So he dashes in, he says, I see the birds have flown. He fails to arrest them. But for those who argue that the King is behaving autocratically, like a sort of someone getting a bit high on their own supply of divine rights, ideology then does play into their hands. I mean, he does look like he looks pretty autocratic, dashing in at the head of soldiers to arrest members of Parliament.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Well, of course, Oliver Cromwell would do it many times in the future, but crucially, successfully. Isn't the problem less that he appears autocratic, but that he actually fails to be autocratic?

[Dan Snow]

Yes, that's always the killer.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dan Snow]

It's the worst of both worlds to be an ineffective autocrat. I mean, that's terrible. Okay, so even after that summer of 1642, so this is the point at which both sides are sort of trying to govern, I suppose they're both issuing, I can't say legislation, whatever. They're both issuing ordinances.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Yes. And there's a lot of propaganda war going on in which Hyde and Whitlock from their, by now opposing camps are both intimately involved. And again, it's a propaganda war that the King arguably is successful in very much not preaching divine right, but instead preaching mixed monarchy tradition, the way things have always been done. And he manages, despite an innate disadvantage in men and ammunition and money, to gain enough of a party to keep a stalemate victory, civil war in action.

[Dan Snow]

But what's interesting, the summer of 1642, events on the ground seem to start accelerating. For example, just near me in Portsmouth, the garrison famously declare for the King, I mean, is the political centre starting to sort of lose control of events in the kingdom?

[Minu Dinshaw]

I certainly think this strange situation of commissions of array and the militia ordinance and the deputy lieutenants appointed by Parliament does cause abundant events of local interest, shall we say? The one which gets most attention in my book, perhaps, is Bulstrode Whitlock's role as a deputy lieutenant. He's a slightly unlikely soldier as a rather delicate lawyer, but quite an enthusiastic one. And as deputy left lieutenant, he Arrests a royalist notable, the Earl of Berkshire, in the act of trying to have a commission of array read out, raise some Royalist troops in Watlington and so.

[Dan Snow]

Sorry, deputy lieutenant, this is a sort of a shadow chain of administrators all over the country, separate, separate from royal government. Basically.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Deputy lieutenants are the military men for Parliament at this point, and they are.

[Dan Snow]

Mostly MPs, right, and they are seeking to wield executive power in areas of the country.

[Minu Dinshaw]

They are raising troops to deal with the kings, in their view, illegally raised troops via the Commissions of Array. And their job is also to stop these commissions of array, to nip them in the bud, to stop them being read out. The Earl of Buckshire wasn't the only royalist noble or notable who was simply essentially kidnapped before he could read out his scroll and call out a group of stalwart county Adonises. He was, you know, hoisted onto a horse and taken off.

[Dan Snow]

Are your two protagonists, do they have an official break? Do they say farewell to each other?

[Minu Dinshaw]

That is such an interesting question. I think they have several, in a way, but also their relationship is unbroken, even when they're on opposite sides. There is a letter, a rather rueful and in a way, almost dryly amusing and deeply ambiguous letter, that Hyde writes to Whitlock at the point where he is in the midst of a rather deceptive scheme for deserting to the King and also getting the Great Seal, for which normal government requires the Great Seal as a object to function. Hyde gets that removed from Parliament in a heist while running off to the King, all while claiming to have a medical note to recuperate in the country. But he, at the same time, he's up to all these tricks. He writes Whitlock a friendly valedictory letter in a rather understated way. They continue to meet, but increasingly they meet in the context of diplomats negotiating on opposite sides, both in public and in private. And it does seem eventually that their correspondence tails off, if we believe Whitlock as well.

[Dan Snow]

So it's a strange summer of both sides trying to demonstrate their control, that they are in fact in charge. It's a proper old fashioned battle for running the country, I suppose, and dispersing patronage. When does Charles raise his standard?

[Minu Dinshaw]

He raises it at Nottingham in August, I believe. Charles has a sort of array of not quite capitals, all of them rather depressing. There's York, which is filled with controversy because the Court of the north has just been abolished by Charles's now friend Hyde. And a lot of the local notables are pissed off about this and furious to Find Hyde at the king's side, having just abolished their court. That's a strange paradox. And then later on, Nottingham, the raising of the standard is a uniquely depressing affair. The banner sort of flops in the wind. The motto is extremely uninspiring, Give unto Caesar his due. Later on, there's Shrewsbury, which they manage to sort of bustle into with the help of a friendly Anglican cleric that Hyde gets onside. But it's not exactly a grand entrance. There are a lot of makeshift capitals with Oxford, of course, laying in the future.

[Dan Snow]

And we should say the reason there are all these slightly depressing and satellite capitals is we should have said, charles flees London. He worries for the safety of himself and his family and then can't get back into the capital. And the capital is a big, powerful, rich place and hugely important port. It is center of the money. It's a great loss to Charles.

[Minu Dinshaw]

The navy is essentially on Parliament's side. Most of the commerce, as you say. I found one interesting aspect the the cellars and larders. It seems that the royalists, once they'd got hold of Oxford, at least the more elite among them, could lead a fairly pleasant life, though expensive, with game, fish and college cellars while they lasted. But also the Parliament would emphasize that they could still import expensive wines from abroad. Their diplomats would throw wonderful feasts and invite all the Royalist courtiers to sort of see what they were missing, in a way. But yes, the King loses London permanently. He will return to it only as a man under prosecution.

[Dan Snow]

And the navy is so important, I don't need to tell listeners to this podcast my love of maritime history. But the fact that the Parliament controls navy will prove arguably ultimately decisive. But our two gentlemen have chosen opposing sides. The King has raised his banner, as you say, with his unbelievably tinned motto. I love that. Render onto Caesar. England is at war in the second half of 1642. It's amazing how us humans adapt to things. I mean, do either of your two gentlemen express incredulity, amazement, or do we just move on? Do we accept new realities and suddenly these two men find themselves as part of opposing war machines?

[Minu Dinshaw]

I think Whitlock is, by common consent, author of the most articulate expression of amazement about the process you described. He makes a little speech that he obviously rightly thought was so great that he repeated it in a letter to his wife, word for word, who has.

[Dan Snow]

Not been so pleased themselves that when they got home, quoted themselves at length to their partner.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Exactly. Here it is. It is strange to note how we have insensibly slid into this beginning of a civil war by one unexpected accident after another, as waves of the sea which have brought us thus far, and we scarce know how. But from paper combats, by declarations, remonstrances, protestations, votes, messages, answers and replies, we are now come to the question of raising forces and naming a general and officers of an army.

[Dan Snow]

Amazing. It's such an extraordinary story. So our two protagonists have decided where their loyalties lie. England is at war. There are years of violence ahead. And you will join us in the next episode of this podcast. Tell us how that war goes indeed, and we'll find out about not only the fate of England and the fate of the kingdoms, but also the fate of our protagonists as well. But in the meantime, people need to go and buy your book so they can spoil it for themselves. Tell us what your book is called.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Ah, yes, Chris, cool. My book is Friends in Choosing Sides in the English Civil War.

[Dan Snow]

So people can get that and do a bit of background reading for the next episode. Minou. See you next time. Thank you very much.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Thank you.

[Dan Snow]

Well, folks, that brings to the end of this episode. We are in a state of war. The king has raised his banner. Render unto Caesar. What a rallying call. It's the autumn. It's the fall of 1642. War has been to declared and we're getting ready for some fighting. Episode two is coming out Wednesday. We'll be hearing about how the fighting went, what happened to our two protagonists, and how that first civil war eventually came to an end. So make sure you tune back in. Remember to like and subscribe wherever you get your pots. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Knox or Jamie]

Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from wtf. I've been talking to all kinds of famous people in my garage since 2009, including a sitting president. You know, I don't imagine you were flying in here on the chopper thinking like, you know, I am nervous about Mark. No, I wasn't. Okay, well, that's good. That would be a problem. It would be a problem if the president was feeling stressed about coming to my garage. Coming to your garage. And now there's even more wtf. When you subscribe to the full Marin to get weekly bonus content and all WTF episodes ad free. Listen to WTF wherever you get podcasts and subscribe to the full [e-mail] WTF.

[Minu Dinshaw]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com sa.