Anne Boleyn: Myths vs Reality

Summary

Dan Snow’s History Hit

Episode: Anne Boleyn: Myths vs Reality
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Estelle Paranque, Associate Professor of History at Northeastern University London

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Main Theme

This episode explores the life of Anne Boleyn, separating myth from reality. Dan Snow and historian Estelle Paranque delve deeply into Anne’s early life, her climb to power, her influence on English history, relationships at court, and the swirling legends surrounding her downfall and execution. Paranque particularly emphasizes the European context of Anne’s life, her education, and her agency, challenging popular misconceptions about Anne’s ambition, reforms, and morality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Anne Boleyn’s Origins and Early Life ([05:27]–[13:18])

• Birth Date and Place:

  • Debate exists over whether Anne was born in 1501 or 1507; Paranque favors 1501, arguing it aligns better with her age during time spent at foreign courts ([05:35]).
  • Traditionally thought of as born at Hever Castle, Kent, Paranque notes evidence for a Norfolk origin.

    "People say Hever Castle in Kent. Or it could be. No. Okay."
    "Norfolk, right. And that's important because she is part of that super dynasty of the Tudor period, which is the Norfolks." (Dan & Estelle, [06:31]–[06:44])

• Family Background:

  • Anne was not a 'nobody'; her lineage included the powerful Howard family of Norfolk and Irish nobility, giving her standing at court ([06:44]–[07:11]).
  • Family ambitions played a major role in her upbringing and education.

    “Everyone wants to believe that Anne Boleyn is a kind of a nobody. ... she's not royal blood, but she's still someone with a big lineage herself.” (Estelle, [06:44])

• Childhood at Hever Castle:

  • Anne spent her formative years playing with siblings and learning social graces in an environment that fostered her curiosity ([07:28]–[08:21]).
  • Paranque notes exhibitions at Hever Castle help visualize young Anne's upbringing.

• Education & Ambitions:

  • Debate over whether Anne or her sister Mary was oldest; Paranque believes Anne was the elder, reflecting her father’s focus on Anne’s education ([08:29]–[09:29]).

2. European Influence & Diplomatic Experience ([11:29]–[19:46])

• Early Continental Education:

  • Sent to Margaret of Austria’s court in Mechelen, Anne was exposed to powerful queens and international politics from an early age ([11:29]–[13:14]).
  • Surviving letters home detail Anne’s acquisition of French and her training in court etiquette.

• Move to French Court:

  • After Margaret, Anne became lady-in-waiting to Queen Claude of France, staying in France for seven years.
  • Her time included travel across France and exposure to female power, courtly culture, and Renaissance values ([19:46]).

    “She witnessed women being powerful, influential, loved, praised. I mean, and she's, you know, 15 years old and she's like, oh, my God.” (Estelle, [20:02])

• Role as Informal Diplomat:

  • Anne relayed information to her father, possibly gave diplomatic support as an interpreter, and gathered experience that differentiated her back in England ([21:20]–[23:29]).

  • “I think Anne played a role because I think she was able to understand everything they were saying…. When you become bilingual, you're faster, you understand better, you understand the jokes. She becomes culturally French.” (Estelle, [22:45]–[23:29])

3. Entry to English Court & Rise to Power ([29:01]–[36:39])

• Arrival at Court:

  • On returning, Anne was made a lady-in-waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon, respected and not yet an object of rivalry ([29:01]–[32:03]).

  • “It starts with a big respect, a big allegiance from Anne...the Boleyns really respected Catherine of Aragon at that time... No problem, right, between Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon at all.” (Estelle, [26:02])

• Not a ‘Homewrecker’:

  • Anne did not pursue Henry VIII; she wanted to marry Henry Percy (Earl of Northumberland), but their engagement was blocked as Henry VIII began to notice Anne ([33:03]–[34:21]).
  • Anne refused Henry's offer to be his mistress, seeking marriage, not a typical court liaison.

    “She didn't care about Henry VIII. She wanted to marry Henry Percy.... Anne Boleyn is not the home wrecker that everyone thinks she is now.” (Estelle, [33:03])

• Rumors & Myths:

  • Paranque finds no evidence Anne was Henry’s sister Mary's rival or that she had a reckless sexual reputation; these rumors come from much later sources and political enemies ([36:47]–[38:11]).

4. Marriage, Ambition, and Religious Change ([38:16]–[46:02])

• Relationship with Henry VIII:

  • Anne’s refusal to become a mistress heightened Henry’s infatuation.

    "...he’s talking about her breast and stuff...It is massively lust. Okay. But he’s pursuing her, and I think...she rejects the gifts." (Estelle, [38:19])

• Ambition and Agency:

  • Anne demanded to be queen, not a mistress — a remarkable stance for the time.

    “You want me, you divorce your wife. I want the whole thing. I want to become queen.” (Estelle, [36:46])

• Religion and Reformation:

  • Anne was not initially a secret Protestant; both Anne and Henry were devout Catholics.

    “Ambulance is extremely Catholic. Her family is extremely Catholic. There’s no other way.” (Estelle, [30:13])

  • Anne's support for reform grew as she was exposed to new ideas, but she still sought papal legitimization of her marriage ([43:00]–[46:02]).

• International and Papal Politics:

  • The annulment crisis was deeply entangled with European politics—Charles V (Catherine’s nephew) holding the Pope hostage meant no annulment.
  • French King Francis I was supportive of Anne’s ambitions, but ultimately politics did not allow France to publicly recognize her as queen.

5. Downfall and Execution ([55:22]–[65:57])

• Collapse of Henry & Anne’s Marriage:

  • After the birth of Elizabeth (future Elizabeth I), Anne experienced several miscarriages and public arguments with Henry and Thomas Cromwell ([53:13]–[55:24]).
  • With Catherine of Aragon’s death, Anne lost her main protection at court.

• Enmity with Thomas Cromwell:

  • Anne’s outspokenness and opposition to the dissolution of monasteries alienated Cromwell, leading to her being targeted as a threat ([55:34]–[56:52]).

    “If you threaten him, you're done. ... She threatened him in March. By April she was gone.” (Estelle, [56:52])

• Arrest, Charges, and Offer of Mercy:

  • Anne was arrested with shocking speed, accused of high treason, adultery, and incest, charges widely regarded as without basis ([59:13]–[61:55]).
  • At her trial, surrounded by men she once promoted, Anne prioritized advocating for the accused men’s innocence, not her own.

    “She said... ‘he wants me dead. Fine. But please save the lives of these innocent men who did nothing’....She didn't think about saving herself. She wanted to save the men...” (Estelle, [61:33])

• Execution and Legacy:

  • A French swordsman was requested well in advance, reflecting the king’s intent to remove Anne quickly and quietly ([62:34]–[65:54]).
  • After her death, Cromwell destroyed Anne’s personal belongings and correspondence, trying to erase her memory, but her legacy survived thanks to the women of her household ([65:54]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Anne’s Formidable Character:

  “She wasn’t a great noble. She wasn’t a foreign princess. She was just a very, very clever and ambitious woman who very improbably became Queen of England and the first queen of England to be legally executed.”
  (Dan Snow, [02:07])

• On Anne’s Exposure to Female Power:

  “Anne witnessed that, witnessed women being powerful, influential, loved, praised... What an opportunity.”
  (Estelle, [19:49])

• On Reformation and Religious Change:

  “Anne actually never wanted the break with Rome.”
  (Estelle, [44:40])

• On Her Execution:

  “But what doesn’t it tell you? It tells you that he doesn't want the news to spread. ... but isn’t it good now that we’re still talking about her right now in your podcast? In defiance of Henry VIII.”
  (Estelle, [65:43])

• On Anne’s Legacy:

  “Her world flipped upside down... Anne Boleyn at the end of April... ‘he wants me dead. Fine. But please save the lives of these innocent men who did nothing’....She didn't think about saving herself. She wanted to save the men that were accused with her. Doesn’t it tell you everything you need to know about Anne?”
  (Estelle, [59:11]–[61:55])

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:07]: Dramatic context for Anne’s execution and her impact on Henry VIII’s reign
• [05:27]: Beginning of Anne Boleyn biography and discussion of her birth
• [11:29]: Anne’s continental education and time with Margaret of Austria
• [19:46]: Anne’s years in France and exposure to powerful women
• [24:42]: The Field of Cloth of Gold, Anne’s first meeting with Henry VIII
• [29:01]: Anne’s arrival at Catherine of Aragon’s court
• [33:03]: The Percy romance and debunking Anne’s “homewrecker” myth
• [36:39]: Anne’s refusal of Henry as a mistress; her ambitions clarified
• [42:23]: International politics entwined with Anne’s fate and marriage
• [53:13]: Birth of Elizabeth I, Anne’s relationship with Henry
• [55:24]: Cromwell’s enmity and the lead-up to Anne’s arrest
• [59:13]: Anne’s trial, false charges, and her selfless defense of others
• [65:54]: Destruction of Anne’s belongings and preservation of her legacy

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Final Reflections

Dan Snow and Estelle Paranque’s conversation powerfully recasts Anne Boleyn as an intelligent, sophisticated, multi-lingual woman whose European experience, moral complexity, and personal ambition changed the course of English—and European—history. They dispel persistent myths, highlight her humanity in her final days, and emphasize the continuing potency of her legacy.

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Recommended For

Listeners interested in Tudor history, women’s history, political intrigue, and the shaping of early modern Europe. Essential listening for those seeking to understand Anne Boleyn not just as Henry VIII’s second wife but as a dynamic, influential figure who lived at the heart of Renaissance diplomacy and power.

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For further exploration:

• [08:21]: Visit to Hever Castle and Anne’s childhood
• [24:42]: “Field of Cloth of Gold” event and Anne’s European connections
• [33:03]: Debunking Anne’s pursuit of Henry VIII
• [44:40]: Anne’s views on the Reformation and break with Rome
• [59:11]: The trial and her selfless final pleas

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Summary prepared in line with the speakers' language and tone. Timing references are approximate for navigation.

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

The executioner was foreign. He was a Frenchman. The English used axes, the tools of butchers and woodsmen. There were too, too many examples of incompetent executioners taking multiple swings at the nape of a traitor's neck. But this was a queen. The first queen to be executed since, well, the very, very distant and obscure past of Britain. She was Anne of England. Anne Boleyn, the woman who had driven Henry VIII to distraction. The woman for whom Henry had upended his kingdom, broken with Rome and shattered Christendom to end Anne's life. The Frenchman was recruited a swordsman. Deft, lethal, precise. It would be quick, at least. A final blessing, a last privilege of her brief status as the foremost woman in the realm of. There was no head on the smashed, scarred block for this style of execution. Instead, she knelt bolt upright, hair tucked under a cap, eyes blindfolded, with the great men of the kingdom bearing witness. When the blow came, it was swift and true. The Frenchman earned his fee. As Anne's head hit the floorboards. Henry VIII was free. You're listening to Dan Snow's history Hit. And this is a podcast about Anne. She has captivated people for centuries. She's been portrayed on the big and little screen. Time after time. Whenever we put one of our not just the Tudors podcasts up about Anne Boleyn, it smashes all the audience records. We remain obsessed with Anne. She wasn't a great noble. She wasn't a foreign princess. She was just a very, very clever and ambitious woman who very improbably became Queen of England and the first queen of England to be legally executed. But how exactly did this minor courtier's daughter rise to such dizzying heights? In this episode, we're going to go all the way back to the beginning. We're going to talk about Anne's formative years in various European courtly settings where she mastered the art of politics and diplomacy and cult and love alongside Europe's elites. These experiences turned her in to the formidable, ambitious, intelligent, politically savvy woman who changed the course of English history to help us tell that story. I'm very pleased to say we've got the one and only, the phenomenon that is Estelle Parank, associate professor of history at Northeastern University, London, and author of Thorne's Lust and the Betrayal of Anne Boleyn. Enjoy. T minus 10 atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima.

[B]

God save the king.

[A]

No black white unity till there is.

[B]

First some black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[A]

Estelle, good to have you on the show.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me, Dan.

[A]

Amberlynn can be quite obscure. Her beginnings. Do we know when and where she was born?

[B]

Oh, that's. That's such a terrific question. So many people disagree, you know, like 1501, 1507. But for me, it's 1501. Okay, it's 1501, because it makes sense for her time in France, like, when we know she's in France, So she's about 14, 15, and that would make sense for her to be a lady in waiting at that age if she was 7 or 8.

[A]

Too young.

[B]

I do think so. I do not see Thomas Boleyn sending his 7, 8 year old to France or even to Mequelan before. So 1501.

[A]

The idea of my 8 year old daughter by herself in France is just astonishing. But anyway, I digress.

[B]

Like 14, 15, it's already like you're considered more of an adultery, a young adult. But it is totally possible. Right. Seven or eight, I don't see it. I'm not saying it never happened, but I just think that it's highly unlikely.

[A]

And so she. We think so we're going 1501.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Born in. People say Hever Castle in Kent. Or it could be. No. Okay.

[B]

Norfolk.

[A]

Norfolk, right. And that's important because she is part of that super dynasty of the Tudor period, which is the Norfolks.

[B]

Exactly. And also like obviously from her mother's side, Elizabeth Boleyn is the Norfolk. Right. But from her father's side, Thomas Bullen, it's all these Irish lords as well. So very a big legacy. She's not, you know, everyone wants to believe that Anne Boleyn is a kind of a nobody. Obviously she's not Catherine of Vargan, she's not royal blood, but she's still very someone with a big lineage herself. And I think we tend to forget that about her.

[A]

Right. So she's got posh ancestors on her dad's side, but the Howard family of the Dukes of Norfolk on her mum's side, who are. Yeah, they're the power behind the throne right through this period. What do we know about her childhood? So before she goes on her travels, how would a young girl like that have been raised in this period?

[B]

Well, that's a very interesting question because actually Ahiva Castle, we know that she went when she was young there and she spent her childhood there.

[A]

And people can still go visit that.

[B]

In castle and they can visit it. And they were pretty. At some point they had the Ballen apartments and it was an amazing exhibition by Kate McCaffrey and Dr. Winemaken and Dr. Alison Palmer. And they did this amazing thing where they tried to make you feel like what it would have been like for Anne Boleyn to play with her brother and her sister George and Mary. And they had like reproduced like toys, like wooden toys and all these type of things and playing in the gardens. Because the Hever Castle, obviously that's the castle, but that's the garden. So it's quite amazing as well. So there's all of this. And you can really picture Anne Boleyn playing there with, you know, wooden toys and all this type of stuff and where she would have learned a lot of skills.

[A]

And her uncle was the Duke of Norfolk, as we discussed. She's very well connected. When did she get an education there?

[B]

She did. Well, they started the education there, but actually, you know, it's. Her father at some point was like, you need to get a proper education. You know, there's also this big discussion, like, was Anne Boleyn the eldest daughter? You know, again, another very controversial question, but a lot of historians will tell you no, Mary Boleyn was the eldest, but because we don't know. For me, it's very hard to believe that Thomas Boleyn would have promoted Anne's education over his eldest daughter, Mary. So for me, I believe that Anna was actually the eldest. It doesn't make. No, it makes no sense to give her that. And it's because she would have. You would have favored her and he would have loved her more. But again, I think, first of all, it must be harsh. I mean, if you have more than one kid, you should know that it's very hard to choose one.

[A]

Very difficult.

[B]

So, like, I don't see. I don't see how you would prefer, you know, this daughter over the other one. It makes no sense to me.

[A]

So we think she's the oldest. So she's.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

A lot of attention being paid to education.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And why is that? Because he was very progressive or just because noble women ought to be. Ought to know what's going on, be able to speak languages, read.

[B]

I think there's a bit of this. I think he, you know, he wanted to advance the Bullen family. The name. His name. Right. So obviously he married Elizabeth Boleyn Norfolk. So he really wanted to also push himself into actual rise. But when you really think about it as well, I mean, that's my opinion. And I'm going to say something that's going to sound a bit. Also controversial. I'm sorry, Dan, it's just a controversial episode. But I think that Thomas Boleyn also wanted Amber to have an education, but because it could serve him. Because when you think about, he's going to send her. He's going to use his own network with Cardinal Wolsey, his patron, his own network to offer his daughter to Margaret of Austria in Macalan, right here in 1513. 1512. 1513. So Amberlynn would have been very young to be sent there. But why does he do this. He does it because obviously he wants Amberlynn to learn French, a very important language.

[A]

Then, of course, bien sur.

[B]

But also he does this because for him, it's a way to promote Herbert to have his ears and eyes in another country and to forge himself his personal relation. Well, isn't really personal. It's always a bit political, isn't it? Political relationship with Margaret of Austria. And when everything's going to change, you know, when the alliance between England and Spain is going to be more complicated, he's going to switch, and that's where he's going to send or ask to send Anne to France. So we see a father that obviously, I think he. I think he believed in Anne's abilities, but we also have a father who was extremely ambitious, not in a bad way. I don't think he was using Anne as a pawn only, but with the aim of advancing the whole family.

[A]

Interesting. So his choices about education, where he'd send his children are also shadowing England's foreign policy at the time and imperial and relationships. Okay, so talk about Mechelne, Anne Vos. Who is she? Why does she want some English kid to be a patron of.

[B]

That is a very interesting question. Because actually, it doesn't make a lot of sense that she would agree for Thomas Boleyn to send his daughter. But that's because Thomas Boleyn was sent as a special envoy. And I think he. She liked him. And when he said, would you mind having. I would like my daughter to learn from you. And Margaret of Austria is obviously from this big Outburg family. She's the aunt of Charles V. She is like. So she's the governor of the Spanish Netherlands, a very, very strong woman. And why am I insisting on this? Because I want people to understand that Anne Bo met a very strong and powerful woman at only 12 or 13.

[A]

Years old, and she's wielding power in her own right, as you said.

[B]

Absolutely. She's of Charles V, one of the.

[A]

Most powerful men in European history.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, if you say that your French person is very hard, but. Yes.

[A]

Difficult for you to hear. I'm sorry, I'm not going to mention King Francis and his embarrassment at the hands of Charles V. I'm not even going to mention. Not even mention it. So I haven't even mentioned it. But. So she's running what is now Holland and bits of Belgium.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

For this empire.

[B]

For this empire.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And she's a very powerful woman. So when Thomas. I think she was, like, amused by the idea of, like. And I Think she liked the fact that he was bold to ask. So she said yes. So he sent Ann there, and Anne spent time with her. Now, what do we know actually about her time there? We don't know that much, but we have a surviving letter of Anne Boleyn during that time that she wrote in Mechelin to her father.

[A]

And Mequelin is where.

[B]

Sorry, it's in. Well, now Belgium.

[A]

Okay, fine. Yeah.

[B]

So she wrote to her father and she's saying, like, how much she's learned French and how much she's learned, you know, the, the court rules. And. And that was very interesting because obviously here we. We see what Thomas Boleyn wanted and was trying to do. He was trying to make from a very young age, Anne Boleyn politically astute, politically aware of how power worked. And that's quite incredible. But obviously, because of what's happening in Europe, things are going to become very complicated. Margaret of Australia is going to get very annoyed with English because someone is looking for a wife. Louis XII of France, because Anne of Brittany died, the Queen of France died. And Henry VIII thinks, if I give my sister Mary Tudor. But the Spanish are furious. He had promised Mary Tudor to one of. Of them and. And he's like, are you going to break that treaty? Are you going to break that agreement? And we know Henry viii, of course he will break anything he wants to break. He's a breaker.

[A]

So there's two big Western Europe. There's the French, then there's the empire.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay, so Anne Boleyn's been sent to the imperial side at the moment.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

But now Henry's turned it all on its head.

[B]

Well, Henry viii, like, for him, Anne Boleyn right now means nothing. Oh, sure, of course. But he's like, looking at the. I mean, when I say Henry V, you know, we know it's also Cardinal Woolsey who's really behind, you know, the power here, especially at that time. So here that they're shifting kind of an alliance. They see an alliance possible with France. It would put an end to the war. It, you know, there are the Italian wars. It's been bloody. And also it gives them an edge. It gives them like, it gives a more importance to England on the European political scene. And Thomas Boleyn is like, oh, okay, Mary Tudor is going to be set. So Mary Tudor not, you know, the sister of Henry viii is going to be sent to France. And Thomas Balencia, I want Anne to go with Mary Tutor, but Anne is with Margaret of Austria, who's already quite Annoyed with all of this. So he wrote to Margaret of Austria. Margaret of Austria obviously had to agree. I mean, she can't, you know, keep Anne Boleyn, but she's also very annoyed.

[A]

So she likes Amberlynn.

[B]

She does. She said that she. She thought she was very intelligent. We have also a letter of her saying to Thomas that Angelyn is very intelligent. She loves spending time with her. She learns quickly. You know, it's something that actually, Anne Boleyn hasn't come in with Elizabeth I. When you really look at their education, they learn so fast. They're smart. Very, very smart. And so Margaret of Austria is going to agree, but Anne Boleyn can't get in time back to England to go to France. So here Dan is get very interesting here. Thomas Boulevard managed to secure the place of Anne Boleyn in Mary Tudor's, you know, court, like, you know, when she sent to France by sending Mary Bolin, the second daughter.

[A]

Oh, a substitute.

[B]

Exactly. A substitute, exactly. And what I love is that in the manuscripts, we have Mademoiselle Boleyn, right? And so because they don't know if it's Anne or Mary, who's gonna go first and who's gonna arrive there. And at first, it's Mary. Anne is gonna arrive after the coronation actually, of Mary. So. But she arrives there, and then something else happened. You know, like fate always strikes when you don't expect it to strike. Louis XII is gonna die and Mary Tudor is a widow, and she has to go back. You know, like all this saga. She's gonna marry in secret Charles Brandon, and it's gonna be.

[A]

That's right. So she's briefly the queen of France.

[B]

Briefly the Queen of France.

[A]

Henry VIII sends his mates out to go and get her, and then they get married. Unbelievable, Charles.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

So sneaky.

[B]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that's a good term. I would have said something else, but that's a good term then. And then they go back to England, and here's something happens. Mary Boland comes back to England with Mary. But here we have a little Boleyn who stayed, and what we don't know. We don't have it in the archives. I haven't found it. If someone else found it. Bless you. I want you to find it. There are more stuff to find. But here she doesn't come back. She stayed. So someone has asked for her to be a lady in waiting of the new queen Claude of France, the wife of Francis the First. And they accepted. They accepted to have this English woman and I think, again, it's Thomas Boleyn. Why? Because Thomas Boleyn has also been sent as a special envoy. And I think he's a very charming person. I think he's very likable. And I think everywhere he goes, he knows how to flatter people in power. He creates a very strong bond, and then he asks for special favors. And it worked.

[A]

Extraordinary. And Anne can play the part because she's super smart.

[B]

She's super smart. She's already learned French, so it's not a problem. And she's the same age, more or less, as Claude of France. So I think there's this bond as well with, like, young, you know, when I say young girls, young women together. And we know that they did get on because we have sources after that said that Anne Boleyn got on with Claude of France and Rene of France. Catherine de Medici tried to convince Elizabeth to have a special friendship because she said, your mother was a friend of Claude and Rene of France. Rene is the sister of Claude of France. And she said, so we should be friends too.

[A]

So that's fas. So we think of Anne Boleyn as just arriving at Henry VIII's court and being attractive and Henry turning Henry's head and making him fall in love with her. But she's had this really interesting, important and unusual journey through European high politics.

[B]

Dan, do you know that actually Anne is more travel, well traveled than Henry VIII or even Catherine of Aragon? Isn't it crazy? Because we think of Anne, you know, when you think of France, you think you think of Paris. Right? News flash, France is not Paris. She went to the Mediterranean.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there was part of the queen's entourage.

[B]

Exactly. So in October 1550, Francis the First had been in battles, you know, in Italy and had his first victory in Marignano. And he comes back, you know, he's into Louise of Savoy, his amazing and wonderful mother, France. The first mother decided to take the court to the south to celebrate him and to welcome him back. So here you have Claude of France, Louise of Savoy, Marguerite of Angouleme, Francis of her sister and their ladies in waiting. The court that is going to go through, like the Chateau de la Loire and go down Lyon, Toulon, Tarascon and Orange and obviously Marseille. Now, we never talk about this. It never appears anywhere in the books on Anne Boleyn. And I wonder why. Because don't we understand, like, the impact. I want you to understand that each time these women stopped in a city, the, you know, the tapestries, the pageants were about women. It was about celebrating Louise of Savoy and Claude of France. And Anne witnessed that, witnessed women being powerful, influential, loved, praised. I mean, and she's, you know, 50 years old and she's like, oh, my God. And then she sees the Mediterranean for the first time, the only time of her life. What an opportunity.

[A]

Is there an opportunity here for the English cause in France? Is she. Is. She's learning, she's developing, she's growing. But is she able to represent English interests or is she able. Is she playing a role yet on the stage?

[B]

That is so interesting because, like, she's a lady in waiting to coat au France. So technically, no, she. She's not. She's not an ambassador. She's not. She. But. But we don't have the letters. But somehow Thomas Boleyn seems to know what's going on with Claude of France to the point where Francis first himself. So, for example, there was one night where Claude a France was pregnant. She's always pregnant, but she was pregnant and she was really in lots of pain. And Thomas Boleyn knew about this. Who else would have told him? Who else would have spent time with Claude of France being, you know, in lots of pain while pregnant? Anne. So we know there is a big correspondence between them too. There's another thing, you know, I've been asked a lot about is like, do you think that, you know, Ann could have been an interpreter, you know, with the Field of Cloth of Gold or other kind of meetings with ambassadors? Yes, I do. And people are like, but Catherine of Aragon and Henry VIII did speak French. Yes, but can we see the difference between speaking French and being fluent?

[A]

Yes, I'm familiar with that difference.

[B]

It is a big difference. When you are completely absorbed in a country, you can understand when five, six people are speaking at the same time the language. When you just speak the language. Even if Henri Viev was absolutely amazing with French, I'm sure he was. Or Catherine of Aragon was absolutely amazing at Catherine of Aragon, such a powerhouse as well. But I'm sorry, I think Anne was needed. I think Anne played a role because I think she was able to understand everything that they were saying. I think you're not the same when you become bilingual. You're faster, you understand better, you understand the jokes. She becomes culturally French. She spent seven years with them, with the French, poor her. No, I'm kidding. It's great, you see?

[A]

And so that. And it's good for Thomas Berlin because it. If he's getting this brilliant intel from the heart of the French state, it Boosts his standing in England and his relationship. Yeah, right.

[B]

So he's like. So Francis really like the fact that Thomas shows concerns and he knows and they see them as friends. That's why when, you know, when they call back Anne Boleyn to England, we know that it's going to be. There's going to be a war as obviously starting between France and England. But France is like very hurt. It's like, why are you calling her back? She's been with, with us for seven years. And it's when he knew like something was, you know, obviously going wrong here. But I love the fact that we have Anne Boleyn, this nobody who's actually witnessing grandeur and, you know, magnificent things from France. Because Paris court is, I mean, I have to say, like, it's the best court.

[A]

I know it's difficult for us to admit, but yeah, the English are always a bit of a pale shadow and I think so.

[B]

I'm sorry, Dan.

[A]

And let's talk. Speaking of grandeur, you mentioned field of the cloth of Gold. Just remind us what happens there. Henry VIII meets King Francis. Whereabouts and why is it called Field of Cloth of Gold?

[B]

So the field of Cloth of Gold happens just outside of Calais because we.

[A]

Know, unfortunately, Calais, the mighty English empire in France. Still little town of Calais. Ok.

[B]

Done killing me. But yes. So it is a very important event because Francis the First and Henry VII are basically showing that they are very good and strong friends here. It's about the alliance. It's about showcasing the alliance, that it's unshakable. And also it's very rare. Right. We know that it is unheard of to have two kings like meeting and having this magnificent time together. So there's going to be tournaments, celebrations, festivities, obviously beer and probably wine.

[A]

Bit of wrestling.

[B]

A bit of wrestling, A bit of. You want to talk about this? I mean, it's not good for the English.

[A]

He lost.

[B]

He lost.

[A]

Henry VIII wrestles Francis and loses. Fine. Okay.

[B]

No, exactly.

[A]

And there's wine fountains.

[B]

It's magnificent. It's such a big. A very expensive time for, I think for both courts, actually. It ruins them both.

[A]

Anne is part of this.

[B]

Anne is there, you're saying?

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

And Elizabeth Boleyn are there. And Anne is there. She's on the French side.

[A]

Extraordinary.

[B]

She's with Claude, but it's the first time she's gonna meet Henry VIII and Catherine of Oregon. I would like it here just to remember, you know, because people like always think that it's starts with a big rivalry between the two queens, Catherine and Anne. No, it starts with a big respect, a big allegiance from Anne. I mean, let's not forget that the Boleyns were like really respected Catherine of Aragon at that time. Like 15, 20, 15. There's no problem, right, between Anne Boleyn and Catherine of Aragon at all. So it starts like on something very good, very promising. And obviously it's going to go downhill, but. Yeah, but here we have Anne that is going to witness as well these two kings. And I wonder sometimes, you know, I don't know if you do that when you, when you do work on your own research, but sometimes I wonder, do you think like she was like. I can see their similarities because there are so similar in the type of men. They were like very, you know, warrior kings. Renaissance king was very narcissist, like charismatic.

[A]

But narcissistic as well.

[B]

Both. Both of them, both Francis and Henry. And I wonder if she realized that, witnessed that. I guess we will never know because we can't interview her. But that's something I've always wondered. When I was working on her, the.

[A]

Phil, the cloth, got the diplomacy. There's lots of fancy words, but not much lasting legacy because England, France will end up going to war.

[B]

Well, I mean, we always do, don't we? The French and English, we love each other and we love to hate each other. So it's full in and out of love constantly. And I think that's exactly what happened. But at first they know that. They really tried, you know that actually Amelia and Francis, the first relationship is so remarkable because there's lots of, you know, of breakups. But they always come back together, don't they? It is interesting when you just look at. Because yeah, there's going to be like a fallout again, but then they're going to be friends again, full out again. So I don't know, it never, it never lasts.

[A]

But after this. But when, during one of their periods of falling out.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And Anne is summoned back from France.

[B]

She's. She has to leave France. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So she then.

[A]

Because England and France are about to go to war.

[B]

Yeah. And Thomas Boleyn asked her to come back before obviously, like there's this fallout. So that's when Francis the first is like, oh, my God, what's going on? Why are you asking your daughter to come back?

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Because. And so that was the first warning for the French. Something, something up is, is about to happen. Right. And so like Anne comes back and we have this idea that Anne's come back and she, you Know, she's still, you know, hello, this heart as soon as she comes back. That's not really true, is it? She comes out 1521. She's still very much a nobody, but they're trying to put her as a lady in waiting, too. Catherine of Aragon. So she's placed into Catherine of Aragon household. Right.

[A]

Because she's now an accomplished.

[B]

Oh, she's done it with Margaret of Austria, with Claude of France. She. She's so. I mean, she's the perfect lady in waiting. Apart from the fire. Like, what happens next.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Until that point, just to finish off thing in France. Scurrilous, misogynistic rumors about her sort of sexual adventures in France. Do we have any evidence for any of that? Nothing.

[B]

Never happened.

[A]

All right, okay, fine.

[B]

No, we forget something about Anne. We have this image. It comes from, like, her detractors way after. Anne is a very pious and religious woman. She is a very Catholic in France. She also meets Margaret of Angouleme, Francis, the first sister, and we also. Margaret of Angouleme. Everyone is thinking, oh, my God, you know, obviously this big reformist. Yes, she loved reformed ideas, but especially in the 15, late 1530s and 1540s. Anne is dead by then. In the 1520s, you know, and late 1510s. Margaret. Yes, she. She reads some books, but she's not a full reformed person.

[A]

She's not what we might. A beginning of a Protestant.

[B]

No, she's not.

[A]

She's not on that journey.

[B]

And I think we have a big problem with that, Dan, and I'm going to have a go on your podcast. I'm sorry, but I think, think people don't just change their religion. Like, ah, you know, oh, yes, today I'm going to be a Protestant. It takes such a long time for you to read books. It's not because you read a book like, oh, my God, yes, I'm going to become a Protestant. It takes a long time for you to change your mind about something so important as religion. We're talking, they all believed in God. It's not. It's not, you know, it's part of their daily life. Ambulance is extremely Catholic. Her family is extremely Catholic. There's no other way. Now, is she interested in the conversation? Did she hear some stuff that were interesting? Probably. Anne loved reading Margaret of Angouleme, loved the idea of women being well educated. So I think Anne benefited from this, but I don't think she changed her mind about religion and then came back to France and tried to change everyone's, you know, Everyone else's mind. I don't think that happened at all.

[A]

Eastern dance knows history. We're talking about Anne Boleyn. More coming up.

[B]

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[A]

Land a Viking longship on island shores. Scramble over the dunes of ancient Egypt and avoid the poisoner's cup in Renaissance from Florence. Each week on Echoes of History, we uncover the epic stories that inspire Assassin's Creed. We're stepping into feudal Japan in our special series Chasing Shadows, where samurai warlords and shinobi spies teach us the tactics and skills needed not only to survive, but to conquer. Whether you're preparing for Assassin's Creed Shadows or fascinated by history and great stories, listen to Essence Echoes of History, a Ubisoft podcast brought to you by History hits. There are new episodes every week. Okay, so she's arrived at English court. She is. She's not burning with some secret Protestant zeal that she's picked up on the continent. So she's. And she's now a lady in waiting to Queen Catherine of Aragon.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How does that go?

[B]

Well, I mean, the evidence probably. It went well. It went well until. It didn't go well until. Yeah. And again. Again, another thing that's going to be very controversial, but I want to debunk the mess that Anne Boleyn pursued. Henry V. Anne Boleyn is not the home wrecker that everyone thinks she is now. But like, we have to stop with this. She didn't care about Henry viii. She wanted to marry Henry Percy. So the Earl of Northumberland, very important family. Obviously they were not sure about, you know, him marrying a Boleyn. You know, it was a bit below their status, but that, that's beyond the point. There's also Cardinal Wolsey that stopped that marriage because Henry VIII was starting to be interested in Anne Boleyn.

[A]

Oh, I see. Okay. So you've got a Percy. It's one of the great families of England. They, they have got a burgeoning romance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're falling in love at court. And Henry VIII actually orders that To.

[B]

Well, there is kind of like evidence that Cardinal Woolsey is not. Is trying to do everything he can to make sure that it stopped. Maybe he's the one who suggested that the Boleyns were not as high standards as the Percy's. So maybe it should not happen. Whatever we know what happened for sure is that that marriage never happened. And then Anne Boleyn was kind of offered. Well, would you like to be my mistress?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and she's like, no.

[A]

And this was normal in this period that kings would take mistresses.

[B]

Yes, well, he had mistresses before Beth Blond, who had children. Henry Fitzroy, like, and they would be.

[A]

Like Anne, from sort of aristocratic backgrounds, gentry and noble families.

[B]

Well, it really depends, depending on the kings and depending on. But actually, I don't think Bethel was from a very nice background and he gave her a lot of lands and wealth. Actually, it's very interesting with Henry viii. If you compare him to Francis I, who, you know, he was shocking any woman he could. Well, Henry viii, I think, is someone who's more. I mean, I hate the book with the guy. Yeah. He picks one at a time, right? So, like, he's like you and then you and then. But then I'll kill you. Right. Like, you know, I don't know which one is best.

[A]

He's a romantic on one level, isn't he? He sort of falls in love.

[B]

It's what people say. Okay, yeah, yeah. But I think that there might be a bit of truth in that. But he's still like, for me, a massive monster, but that's okay.

[A]

Well, we can all agree on that. But. Yes, but it'd be not like Francis. He's not. He's not just having sex with people and then just getting rid of them straight away. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's not. He's. He's not. Oh. Or at least we don't have the evidence that he's doing that. Right? We don't have that evidence. So he's gonna pursue Anne Boleyn. He's like very interested in her. I think it's the fact that she's. She's well traveled, she's well educated, she's different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm like, okay, what are you offering me here to be the second woman? You know, I've always felt like Angolan was so modern for her time before. Honestly, if you have a friend and she tells you, Dan, you know, I met someone who is married and I told him, no, you. You leave your wife and then you marry me, you'd be like, you go, girl. Good for you. You don't want. Right? But, like, because here, you know, it's a queen, and you're like, oh, do the right thing. What a bastard. You're not nice. You're stealing them. She's not telling anyone. She's like, you want me, you divorce your wife. I want the whole thing. I want to become queen. And then. Yes. I mean, you know what? I don't know if she promised that she would have a son, but obviously that was, you know, like, saying, you don't have any right with Catherine, that, you know, we might have one.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

So should we just.

[A]

Also, you've mentioned how her sister. You think younger sister Mary, at this point, has Henry VIII also had an affair with her.

[B]

Oh, Dan, you're gonna hate me. More controversy for you. I don't buy it.

[A]

You don't buy that?

[B]

And I want to tell you why. Because of the evidence. The evidence we have, the real one that we can really rely on is Henry VIII himself. When he wants to get rid of Anne. He said, well, actually, we can't really be married, you know, when, you know, 1535, 1536. Like, it's like, ah, because I had an affair with. With Mary. So he's doing what he did to Catherine of Aragon, you know, when he was like, you actually slept with my brother? And that's why we don't have a son. He's doing that again. Do I really believe him that after so many years now he's saying that, yes, you know, he had an affair with Mary. I'm not saying it's impossible. I just say that. I just find it so convenient. And also, we know that the other sources we have, so Nicholas Sanders and stuff, it's in 1570s, so under Elizabeth I reign. And I think it's to discredit Elizabeth as to kind of really tarnish her legitimacy, saying, you know what? Yeah, Mary Boleyn, Anne Boleyn, your family. So I don't. I mean, again, I'm not saying that it's not entirely that it's not possible. Maybe it is. A lot of historians actually believe that Mary Boleyn was a mistress, and maybe she was. But I found it very convenient that it was used against Anne Boleyn and it was used against Elizabeth I. So I'm just. I'm just a bit cautious about it.

[A]

Okay, interesting. So. But either way, Henry wants to make her his mistress. She is saying no.

[B]

She's saying no.

[A]

That's quite remarkable, isn't it?

[B]

It is remarkable. It is so remarkable. And she lives also to Hever Castle. And he's gonna write. I mean, people call it love letters. Can we stop with that? They're lust letters, right? It's like. I mean, he's talking about her breast and stuff. I'm so. Send me a letter. Will you talk about my breast? It's not love letters here. I mean, you see what I mean? Like, so it is massively lost. Okay. But he's pursuing her, and I think the fact that, you know, he sent her gifts, she rejects the gifts.

[A]

Wow. Does she want to be queen at this point? It's a bit. It's sort of unimaginable. I mean, it's quite a stretch, isn't it, that. That a anointed king would marry somebody, would fall in lust with someone and marry them to get rid of his wife and marry them.

[B]

Just feel it's unheard of.

[A]

Yeah, it's unheard of.

[B]

It's unheard of. It is. It is quite something.

[A]

So what do you think she's going for at the moment? What's her plan?

[B]

I think. I think. I thought she's just saying no. And. And I think that her game is like. Or is to be able to find a suitor for her later on. And I think she's just not interested in playing that game with him. But because he keeps pursuing her, I think at some point she did fall in love with him. And then I think that then she's like, yeah, okay, well, I want it all. I want the whole package. So, you know, we have a very. The. The Breakwear Throne really starts in 1527. Right. It's all. When the. All this discussion about the annulment with Catherine, you know, when she's humiliated at court, all. It start in 15:27 when we start the idea that maybe Henry should not just rely on the Pope and what he's saying. And during that time, 1527 to 1532, when they actually get married, 1533, with Anne Boleyn's coronation, and then the birth of Elizabeth, it's quite a long time, five, six years together where. And it's. It's like they. They become very close. He's like. He's completely devoted to her. Isn't it like he. It almost seems like he loves her. I don't believe he can love anyone, but. And she does, I think, really love him. And they kind of this power couple together. And it's where, like, the reformed ideas that she read, it's like it. That's starting to Grow on her, like, to be like, okay, well, there's too much grammar. That's playing a role. That's talking about, you know, maybe we don't have really. To conform to the Church. You know, in Rome, they call him no longer the Pope, but the Bishop of Rome, you know, so that's.

[A]

So Anne is going through her own, on her own personal journey with this man she loves, and she's thinking, I'd like to become queen. And as it happens, there is this intellectual format for men in Europe at the moment around changing church practice, reform. We call Protestantism. So both. It's sort of working on a bit of a twin track. She's like, hang on a second. This might. The idea of reforming religion and reforming my personal life and prospects sort of linked together here.

[B]

But it's also for Henry. Right. Henry V is like, why am I listening to someone.

[A]

Yeah, this guy in Rome.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Who's saying, I can't get divorced.

[B]

Yeah. Just because Charles V obviously sacked Rome and is in control. The nephew of Catherine of Aragon.

[A]

Yes. Let's go through this bit. So Charles V is super emperor we talked about, who I promised not to mention.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

He has captured Rome. He's got the Pope hostage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Unfortunately, he is the nephew of Catherine.

[B]

Of Aragon, and there's no way he's going to let the Pope agree on an annulment.

[A]

Which is weird because traditionally, popes allowed kings to get annulled. Quite. It wasn't the end of the world.

[B]

Well, I mean. I mean. I mean. Yeah. I honestly think if it wasn't for Charles V, it would have gone through.

[A]

So the Pope would be like, fine, get divorced. I don't care. Annul and then marry someone else. Which is not that unusual. Okay. So. But because of the family politics, the popes can't do it. And then Henry's like, well, who's the Pope anyway?

[B]

Well, it's more. Okay, that's where it gets interesting, and that's where I think it gets. And let's talk about the French side here, because the French have a huge involvement in that. Francis the first is like. He's interested in Anne Boleyn. I know Anne. Anne was in France. Oh, that would be interesting to have, you know, a queen.

[A]

Very useful.

[B]

Yeah. That could be like, we. She's a Francophile. She loves the French. She's gonna favor. She's already starting to favor the French anyway. He's like, oh, I love Anne. He hates the Spanish, obviously. And so he's like, that's great. And so he gets involved. So he's like, okay, wait. Because he's very Catholic. Fr. Francis. Yeah, Henry Thief, who's also very Catholic. Anyway, and they talk and Francis, like, let me see if my theologians in Paris can agree that you can, you know, that you can. So there's lots of things that happens actually in France, and they all agree that he can get an annulment, that it should be. It should be possible.

[A]

Yeah. So King Francis is like, hey, Henry, I think you can get annulled.

[B]

I mean, but he doesn't just do that, Danny. He sends special envoys to Rome to convince the Pope. Did you know, actually that I found it crazy. They try until they really fail, until there was no way they could work. That makes me think that Anne Boleyn really, really, really, really wanted the Pope to recognize her, which shows that despite the fact that she might have been interested in reformed ideas, she's still extremely Catholic, even in 1527, 28, 29, 30. And she still wants to be recognized as, you know, as a Catholic Queen of England. To a point where in 1534, I call it like the Impossible Mission, where Jean Du Belay, a French ambassador, also he's a bishop, is going to be sent by Francis the first to Rome. He love Jean Du Belay, loves Anne Boleyn. Not in a weird way, he just adore her. And he's sent there and he's going to try all he can to make the Pope agree. An annulment. You know who. Stop it. Who betrayed him? Henry viii.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah, Henry VIII sent. Didn't send the special envoy he had to send to. Back. To back up Jean Du Belay. And Jean Du Belay got betrayed by the Spanish there, the Spanish bishop, the Italian bishop. And he was waiting for Henry to send him the. The backup he needed. And Henry, you have letters of Henry VIII telling him, yeah, yeah, I'll do it. I'll send them now. He never does. And that tells me that's Henry's break with Rome.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Anne actually never wanted the break with Rome.

[A]

So Henry's decided, I'm through with the Pope.

[B]

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, we talk also about excommunication. You know, the fear of it doesn't happen right away, does it? It takes a long time for him to be excommunicated. It's like, bring it on.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So it is a very complex time politically. But what I found for me when I was doing the research, it was heartbreaking to see how the French tried so hard to make her the legitimate Queen of England. And when, when they failed at that time, that was a lot. You know, that was the last thing they could try. Then obviously, like, you're on your own.

[A]

If Francis of France had managed to stop the Reformation happening in England, Anne Boleyn had been crowned Catholic Queen of England. What a world we'd be living in now.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Extraordinary.

[B]

It didn't happen because of Henry viii. It's definitely his Reformation. But not a religious one or not. Right. Or he doesn't become Protestant. He's a Catholic until his death.

[A]

He's Catholic, but who's fighting with the Pope?

[B]

Rejecting the Pope, but yeah, for his own authority. Head of the Church, which people have.

[A]

Been doing for Henry ii did that. I mean, everyone's fighting Philip of France. I mean, that guy, he fighted the Pope the whole time. Okay, so it's not yet a kind of deep rooted transformation of British English religious society.

[B]

Not yet. Not yet. It comes later.

[A]

That'll come later. Okay, so we got. We're in the 1530s now. Henry decides that's it. I don't need the Pope's permission. I'm annulling my marriage.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So. But no, so that's where it's interesting. 1532, so there's the meeting in Boulogne and Calais between Francis the First, Henry VII and Anne Boleyn. There's, you know, celebrations as well, festivities. And Henry there still. Amberlyn, you do not come to that. She disobeyed him, went, and we know for a fact she had a discussion at that time with Francis the first. What we don't know is what they said each other, but what we know is that once the left Boulogne and Calais and went back to England, Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn got married. And obviously we're going to have a baby, you know, like later, nine months later, there's Elizabeth, then Angelyn is crowned Queen of England 1st 6.15.33. And all I'm talking about is after the French didn't stop, they still tried, you know, France. I could not believe what happened. He was like. And that's why I don't really know what, like, what he told her for her to feel like, okay, we're going to do it. Because he must have said, I will back you, I will support you. And I think she misunderstood him. Like, support, like, I'm on your side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he can't go against the Pope, Francis the First, because he's trying to get his second son to marry the Pope's niece, Catherine of Medici. So he's like, please don't up. So, you know, but you have to understand that everyone has their own agendas. And I think Franz, I really liked Anne Boleyn as a person. He was like, don't mess with my plans. And everything I told you about Jean du Belair going to rome is in 1534. So it's a year after Anne Boleyn being crowned in England and everything. She's still looking forward to be, like, recognized by everyone she wants to. And so that's crazy because we don't talk about this. We assume that, boom, 1533, you have the brick with room. That's not true. It goes on for longer.

[A]

More Amberlynn after this.

[B]

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[A]

She's still trying to be recognized. It's actually Henry who's thinking, I don't even want.

[B]

Yeah. He's like. At that point, he's like, I don't.

[A]

Care how popular or otherwise. Is their marriage in England?

[B]

Well, it depends. Obviously, there are lots of supporters of Catherine of Aragon. Obviously Catherine of Aragon, the way she was humiliated, like, cast away, like. I mean, let's face it, it's been horrendous for her from 1527 until her death. Absolutely. But there are people that do like Anne. You know, when people are like, oh, you know, our coronation, everyone was like, no one cared. And that's not true. People loved having a party anyway. And she had. Obviously, you know, we don't talk enough about Anne and what she did for the people. But did you know then that she supported the poor, that she had charities set up? Did you know as well that Anne Boleyn, when she died, had lots, lots of debts? Do you know why? Because she was a very good. Well, a very nice landlady. Not good financially because if one of her tenants were like, oh, I can't be pay this month, she was like, no, it doesn't matter. You'll pay. You'll pay next time, babe. No, but do you imagine Anne Boleyn being like this? No. We never talk about the fact that she was. Yeah, yeah, she. She had a bad temper. She could be annoying. She was. She didn't treat well. Princess Mary Catherine of ar. Of course, they wanted the same man. Right. They loved the same man. But she was so loyal. So when you wear her friend and on her side, she, you know, she was 100% loyal to you. And she was so good with her people, with charities, the poor. She was really trying. A good lady as well, like, she always, oh, we're having a hard time. Well, you'll pay me later. And that's why she ended up with a lot of debts, unfortunately. But, I mean, she was dead, so who cares?

[A]

Exactly. Who cares?

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

Die with debts. That's my. That's my policy. She has a child, but it's very disappointingly a girl.

[B]

Yeah, well, the best queen of the world.

[A]

Who turns out to be the best queen in the history of England. Exactly. Fine. Best monarch, not just best queen.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Although, hang on a second, we have done an episode with our Irish colleagues who would beg to differ on that one, but.

[B]

No, I know, and they're right.

[A]

They're right as well. But certainly someone who's often thought to be the best monarch in English history. Elizabeth. But at the time, she's second daughter, they wanted a son. She's a. She's a footnote.

[B]

It is. It is tough.

[A]

Does that. When does their relationship start to go sour?

[B]

It's warm. People will tell you it's when Elizabeth I was born. That's not true. I mean, at that time. So the 7th of September, 1533, we have Elizabeth. And obviously it's a big disappointment, right? But Anne Boleyn truly loved her daughter, cared for her, showered her with gifts. But even Henry VIII at the time, he really loved and he thought, all right, okay. He thought, she's healthy. It's our first baby. She's healthy. Because the problem with Catherine of Aragon, and I think people don't really discuss that, is the fact that most of her children, some of them died unfortunately in infancy, right? But a boy like Henry died. He was one or two years old. So all a baby apart from Princess Mary were kind of sick or ill. And he was like, okay, first kid, first healthy kid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he was like, okay, wait. So at that point, there's no easy disappointed must be like a slap in the face. But at the center is like, okay, we can make it work. They keep trying, but they keep having fights because obviously you start. Anne Boleyn is. She has an opinion about everything. Love her, but she's starting to ash. Did you know that she voiced her concerns about the dissolution of monasteries? So she didn't like what he was doing. And she told him and Thomas Cromwell, she confronted both of them saying, like, you're doing that for money. And they hated that. They hated that. What she. She was, you know, fighting for the distortion of monastery. She was sending money to the monks that were losing their homes and stuff. They hated that she was doing all of this. So they had lots of fights. And the fights were public. We have fight, massively public between Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn. So imagine in private, I don't even want to imagine, but they always seem to make up. And so you. There's no, you know, it doesn't fall. It's up and down, up and down, up and down. And she gets pregnant again, but a miscarriage. Okay, and again, another miscarriage. And again she's pregnant again. And this time it's 15. January 1536. But this time, the 7th of January 1536, captain of Aragon died ambulance 5 months. 4. 5 months pregnant. 20 weeks. You know, I mean, we can't really know for sure. You see what I mean? Like, quite showing, but not too much either. Miscarriage. And here we see the fittest was a. Was a boy. And at that time, it's not, I think January 1536 to what's going to happen April and May 1536. Or her downfall. That happened so quickly. You have Henry, this, like, what. What's. You know, I've had enough. And people pushing Jane Seymour in his arms. And Anne is starting to get jealous because I call her a substitute French princess in my book, but she's not French. She doesn't bring, you know, dynastic alliance.

[A]

Interesting. Okay.

[B]

Her relationship with Henry is the reason why she's Queen of England, why she's so important. So losing that. That, like, losing his affection is losing everything. Yeah.

[A]

She can't fall back on being an important foreigner.

[B]

No, it's not. She can't be. And Catherine of Aragon is now dead. So before. It's why it's so for people to understand that as long as Catherine was alive, she was safe. Because for the Catholic, he was already married to Catherine. For the reformed or people who believe that there was more than Catholicism, he was married to Anne. Right. But if she died, people were like, the Catholics were like, well, he can remarry. They don't believe in Anne Boleyn's marriage. Like, he can remarry. And everyone is telling him, get rid of her. And it's. How do you get rid of her? And the problem with her is that with Anne is that she's going to be. She's going to make a very big enemy out of Cromwell. She actually is going to threaten him in an indirectly.

[A]

And now Thomas Cromwell, people will know from the books and the wonderful TV shows, is Henry's chief minister at this point, his fixer.

[B]

He's. Yeah. And he's the most powerful man in England. He's gonna, you know, he's so powerful. He controls everything. And Cromwell has had enough of Anne. At first, he obviously supported her. I mean, at first he. He's behind her, but then he's like, he doesn't like the fact that she has an opinion on everything. He doesn't like that she voiced her concerns about the dissolution of monasteries. She voiced her concerns about what he was doing, you know, basically.

[A]

And presumably you can also see Henry falling slightly out of love with her.

[B]

Yeah. Also like thinking, I need to make my king happy. Right. To make my king happy, I need him to have a son. But Cromwell is starting to also. He blames Anne for what happened to Wolsey. You know, he thinks that she played a role in his downfall. And Wolsey was his master and patron. So there's like, kind of like he's starting to get annoyed with her and Anne is going to indirectly threaten him. And you don't threaten Cromwell. Unless you do it, you get rid of him or if you threaten him, you're done. Because then he was. She threatened him in March. By April she was gone. You know, like she was arrested. So you can see here that he was like okay. What's awful though, Dan, it's obviously what's going to happen to her and how they're going to think about of a downfall. Henry VIII wanted the downfall. He's the one who's going to tell Cromwell, get rid of her. I've had enough. And Cromwell how? Find a way. And you know, I, I. Not many people realize that story, but Anne Boleyn at the end of April. So Eustace Chaplis, who is the imperial ambassador, the man of Charles V, you know, the big guy, the emperor, even him didn't understand what was going on at the end of April he's like the king and the queen. So. Well he doesn't. The concubine Angolaine are supposed to go to Rochester, but here I see the privy council meeting and no one is telling me what's going on. You know, he's always hearing and he's everywhere and he has no clue what's going on. And Anne is the date where she's supposed to go to Rochester with Henry VIII gets delayed and she waits and she waits and one they finally come to get her. It's not to get her. So you send her to the Tower. You've been arrested for high treason. What? I thought I was going to Rochester. Do you see what like how your world flipped upside down with what they, what they did to her. And then she's to the tower of London second May 1536 and she discovered.

[A]

Quite the rap sheet against her.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Adultery, incest. Incest.

[B]

High treason.

[A]

High treason. Bit of witchcraft in there.

[B]

Well, it's what Henry VIII said like but still. Yeah, pretty.

[A]

And conspiring to high treason. So conspiring to kill the King. That was any, any truth into any of those allegations?

[B]

Absolutely not. Nothing. They have absolutely nothing. And incest with her brother. You know, when you look at the source about like the trial of Anne Boleyn where all the accusations are made against her. You have to imagine, first of all you have to imagine Anne in front of all these men. Her uncle, Duke of Norfolk is there. Most of the men that are have a seat. She put them there, you know, they were part of the bull in faction. There's Cromwell that you know with whom they've obviously worked together for a long time. And here she's listening to what they say. So, like that. And it's how it's written. She violated the mouth of a brother. Oh, in Wait, no, worse than that. Honestly, you read. So you have the dates and the places where she would have had. You know, there's so many men. There's Marriage, Smith and the. The musician. There's the old music instructor. There's a Henry Norris. There's so many, you know, all the men that are going to die. And they said to her that two weeks, it's. It's not funny. But 21-9-1533, it said in the trial, you went Hampton Court, shagging Henry Norris in the garden of Hampton Court. She gave her the. 7-9-1533, Greenwich. You are impure. You're not allowed to go anywhere after giving birth for six weeks. So they're saying she went on a boat, went to Hampton Court, of all the places, went to see Henry Norris. Ah, I just want sex right now. And went in a garden, in of all places. Right. Oh, take me here. I mean, insane. You know, I'm going to paraphrase what? Angela. So I'm going to listen to all that. That. And then she said, you know what, I get it. You want me dead. Oh, no, she said, he wants me dead. Fine. But please save the lives of these innocent men who did nothing at a time where it was her trial. She knew that, you know, it was an end game. It was a forgotten conclusion. She didn't think about saving herself. She wanted to save the men that were accused with her. Doesn't it tell you everything you need to know about Anne? Honestly, I think we do not talk about this enough.

[A]

Well, I'm glad we're talking about it now.

[B]

I know.

[A]

So she was found guilty. The men in question were killed. Her efforts were not successful.

[B]

Absolutely not.

[A]

Yeah. Including her brother. Now, she was killed at the Tower of London. Did Henry get married the same day? I can't remember.

[B]

No, he's hunting he with Jin Simon the same day. And he married her 10 days later.

[A]

He married her 10 days later.

[B]

Can you imagine for Jane as well, like, you know, we love beating all these wives against one another, but, like, can you imagine? Oh, great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Next. That's lovely.

[A]

And they sent the final bit of the French Connection. They sent a someone to get a French executioner to do the job on Earth.

[B]

But what's very interesting is, obviously we know that it doesn't take, you know, it's not a two hour, you know, kind of travel time. Right. But her trial is on the 15th of May. She's executed on the 19th of May. So for the guy to arrive, he was already asked to come way earlier than that. You know, they didn't. You know, you could call someone, say, okay, she's guilty, please come. And, you know, when you think about it, like the arrest 2nd of May, and then the execution 19th of May, do you realize how quick it is? But what doesn't it tell you? It tells you that he doesn't want the news to spread. He doesn't want France to know the French, you know, so the, the. I mean, the French ambassador was not a huge. At the time, was not a huge fan of Anne Boleyn, but his secretary, Lancelot de Carl, who's going to write the Life and Death of Andelyn and is going to record he's a witness of her death. He wants everyone to know in France what Henry VIII did. Henry VIII is going to try to censor that book. And it. Francis the first is going to say, okay, I will not let it get published. But he doesn't stop the book to be circulated in the French court because it shows Henry the cruelty. It shook Europe, for instance. The first half of that is like, I'm not sure I want you to marry, you know, someone from France, you know, like my daughter. No, it's not going to happen. My sister. No, not going to happen. You know, no one's going to happen. Because it's like when Marie de Guise, you know, he wants to marry Marie de Guise after James Seymour died and Marie de Guise said, my neck is too small. You know, I don't. Yeah, no one wants to marry Henry. He's a murderer. There's no other explanation. But what's so interesting about Anne is that obviously she's executed at the Tower of London. But can I tell you a little story? When she was in prison, she thought about two people. You know, Kingston, the one in charge of the Tower, met her a few times, and twice she was crying. She was crying for Elizabeth, her daughter, leaving her behind. So she's going to ask her chaplain, Matthew Parker, to. He promised to her, I will look after her. And he did. Well, as much as he could. But the second time she was still crying. And Kingston is like, why are you crying? And I'm thinking about my mother. She's gonna. Gonna lose two of her children. And you know what? It's not the worst thing that happened, actually, then for me, the worst thing is that you have to imagine the Boleyn. So Thomas and Elizabeth are back at Hever Castle. Do you know who arrived at Hever Castle? Cromwell and his men. And they destroyed everything that Anne possessed. That's why we don't have our letters. That's why everything has been destroyed. And it's so hard to get to her words. That's why also the work of Kate McCaffrey is so important, you know, with a book of hours, because Anne gave that to her ladies in waiting and they pass it on. Women, you know, the women protected Anne's legacy. Otherwise everything else has been destroyed because Henry VIII ordered Cromwell to destroy everything. Probably he didn't want to, you know, the letters or stuff that could be remembered. And isn't it good now that we're still talking about her right now in your podcast?

[A]

In defiance of Henry viii.

[B]

Exactly. A tyrant.

[A]

Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and doing that.

[B]

Thanks. Thank you, dad.

[A]

Thanks so much for listening, folks. We really hope that this has helped you better understand what's going on, given you a bit of context. And if you think you're from friends, family, colleagues would enjoy that, then please, please do share with them. Whatever your podcast player, whatever you're listening on, it will let you share this as a link or even a WhatsApp message that sharing is the lifeblood of this podcast and what keeps us going. So thank you for listening and thanks for sharing. Join us next time for another episode of Dan Snow's history Hit.

[B]

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