Mark Haydn (5:45)

And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

Dan Snow (5:51)

Mark, thanks for coming on the show.

Mark Haydn (5:53)

Hey, thanks so much for having me. Really excited.

Dan Snow (5:55)

Don't you think it's strange, given what we think we know about the Roman world and this sort of hereditary imperial office, that actually the imperial crown very rarely passed from father to son. It's so strange, isn't Is?

Mark Haydn (6:09)

You see all these forms of government in the past, and currently where it's a hereditary monarchy, essentially, and Rome was never designed originally, say, for the monarchical period. The empire wasn't designed to be a hereditary monarchy. And the very first person, a biological son to succeed his father was Titus. There were prior opportunity. Britannicus was the son of Claudius, but he was passed over in favor for Nero, and I think we all know how that turned out.

Dan Snow (6:38)

Yeah, poor Britannicus. I mean, apart from anything else, us Brits aside, we didn't get a Roman emperor with our name on it, but also he had a particularly unpleasant fate at the hands of his stepbrother. Tell us about Vespasian. I mean, not only is it strange that they're the first to transmit that imperial crown from father to son, but very unlikely wearer of the crown in the first place. Let's just quickly go back to Vespasian, just explain who he was and how he started this new dynasty.

Mark Haydn (7:03)

Well, Vespasian came from this Flavian family that kind of sprouted out of obscurity a few generations earlier. And in fact, one of his ancestors might have been a lowly farmhand in northern Italy. And it didn't take long, a few generations, for the family to become the preeminent dynasty in the Roman Empire. But even Vespasian's rise was a bit muddled when he was working his way up the Cursus honorum, which is the path of honors, where you hold a series of offices, political offices and militaries, you work your way up. It was a checkered experience for him. Caligula was upset with how he was cleaning the streets, so he had him pelted with mud. And then another time, when Vespasian was governor in Africa, what was probably a food riot, the people pelted him with turnips. So this poor guy that was destined to be emperor, and perhaps one of the greatest emperors in Rome's history, had a history of having detritus tossed at him and ruining his clothes, which I find fascinating.

Dan Snow (8:02)

I suspect that might keep us all a bit more real. Perhaps the two are related. Is it Vespasian or is it a, as you say, a generation? Is it that he's a particularly effective soldier, administration official, like, what is it about Vespasian? And then, of course, timing. But we'll come on to that. What is it about Vespasian that really marks him out as successful?

Mark Haydn (8:18)

You know, I mean, that's a bit of a tough question. I mean, some of it's opportunity. He was in the right place at the right time and that he was also easy to look over. So he was a good military man, but he wasn't particularly inspiring. And that is probably the reason, in part, why Nero assigned him to take over the legions and subdue Judea, which was in revolt starting in 66 AD. So this is someone he couldn't, wouldn't have expected to be able to challenge him for popularity, challenge him for succeeding to the throne or anything along those lines. But then the year the four emperors happen, there are these civil wars, this uprising. Nero ends up killing himself with the help of one of his friends. And then here's Vespasian sitting there with tens of thousands of troops at his disposal and a very capable son who has been making diplomatic connections. And very quickly, much of the empire says, hey, this Vespasian guy might work out as emperor. So then they decide, decided to stake their claim and they were successful in the end.

Dan Snow (9:19)

Yeah, just quick shout out, Vespasian. He actually conquered the part of Britain that I'm sitting in now, and I'm looking out of the Isle of Wight, which he conquered, it was called Vectus back then. So we've got a local connection with Vespasian, so he's a successful soldier. Nero effectively takes his own life and four emperors, one after the other. In that fateful year 69 AD, Vespasian emerges. This was the beginning of the Flavian dynasty. He's the first emperor not to have the blood of the original, you know, Julius Caesar Augustus in his veins. I mean, was, was his hold on power pretty tenuous at the start. And by the way, what role was his son Titus already playing at this point?

Mark Haydn (9:53)

Well, his son played a role as kind of a. He was very skilled in diplomacy, so he helped bridge the gap between Vespasian and Mucianus, who was governor in Syria, who also had truth at his disposal. And he was a very able politician as well. And in fact, it was Mucianus that they use as the administrator in Rome before Vespasian arrived, and his grasp on power was probably still pretty tenuous. There were no other serious claimants by late 69, because Galba had died, Otho had died, Vitellius had died. So that kind of left Vespasian as the last man standing. And he was thrilled. And he was in Africa at the time, in Egypt, and he had Mucianus go to Rome and. And start working through things, make sure their rule was safe and secure. But also, I think that there, and I'm not the first person to have said this, Vespasian probably delayed his arrival in Rome because Mucianus needed to kill some enemies to make sure that their ascent was perfectly fine and safe. And then they had Domitian acting as the Flavian mouthpiece. He was a figurehead, had zero power, but he was there in Rome along with Mucianus.

Dan Snow (11:02)

And we should say Domitian, by the way, is Vespasian's other son.

Mark Haydn (11:06)

That's correct. So after they reinstituted control or instituted control and probably killed enough political enemies, finally, Vespasian, probably in mid to late, sometime in the autumn of 70 AD, decided to head to Rome, put on his laurel leaves and start acting as emperor.

Dan Snow (11:23)

And he had a lot of work to do. The famous fire under Nero. But there was also a fire in Rome during the fighting of 69 AD, so Rome was itself badly damaged. The empire's suffered its. Well, first. First big civil war, we can say, perhaps, and there would be many more in the coming decades and centuries. Did Vespasian save the Empire at this point?

Mark Haydn (11:46)

You know, I don't know if he saved it. So there's what's happening inside of the city of Rome and then what's happening out in the provinces. The province is probably. They didn't notice too much of a difference, I would imagine, except for where the fighting actually was. They continued paying their taxes and they farmed and did their thing. If Vespasian wouldn't have risen to the occasion, I suspect someone else would have. However, he turned out to be a pretty good administrator, and we saw an extension of the Pax Romana, the Roman peace, when he was there. So could someone else have done it? Probably, but maybe not as well.

Dan Snow (12:20)

We've mentioned both of his sons. We've got Titus and Domitian. They're obviously involved. Titus has sort of grown up, I presume, as his father's enjoyed ever greater honors and status. He's had the upbringing of a more aristocratic young Roman. He was Titus more at home with people of senatorial class.

Mark Haydn (12:37)

Yeah, so he was born around 39 AD and he also entered the Cursus Honorum. And what really helped him and Vespasians rise is Nero murdered his mother, Agrippina was not a fan of the Flavians. And in fact, when Nero killed or had Britannicus killed, Titus was sitting right next to him and drank some of the poison too, which nearly killed Titus. And he had a long term ailment because of this. But with Britannicus out of the way, Nero secured his grip on power. Then he killed Agrippina, which allowed the Flavians to rise. And Titus went through a similar process as Vespasian as he went through the Cursus Honorum, became a senator. And when Nero assigned Vespasian to subdue the revolt in Judea, Vespasian assigned his son to lead the 15th Legion. So together they fought in Judea and Galilee and the surroundings as they tried to subdue the insurgents there. Now, when Vespasian became Emperor, he allowed his son to finish off the war. And by this point there was primarily Jerusalem was where the thick of the fighting was left to be done and it would be an extended siege. And then there were some other fortresses like Herodium Machaes as well as Masada. And Titus got to oversee the Jerusalem siege, which turned out to be incredibly bloody.

Dan Snow (13:56)

It's savage, savage fighting in Judea. What is the upshot, what is the thing for which Titus is sort of primarily remembered in Judea?

Mark Haydn (14:04)

I mean, I think it's the extended siege of Jerusalem. Titus, you know, he was looked as this consummate commander that did the unthinkable and perhaps unconquerable in Judea. But really he also had a bit of a checkered history. He was a bit of a headstrong, immature commander, unlike his father. And really there's issues of ambushes, losing siege engines, siege ramps and all these things that happened. But despite that, he had, gosh, maybe 65 to 80,000 men at his disposal to lay siege to Jerusalem. And after several months he was successful. But at the end, according to Josephus, over a million Jews died, most from famine. And some of the stories that came out of there are just appalling. Josephus recorded one terrible instance of a mother eating her own child. Things that make us cringe to this day and really pull at our heartstrings.

Dan Snow (14:55)

So Titus was effective. There is a debate, isn't there, whether Titus, perhaps as a young man, would have been in Britain during Boudicca's revolt. Where do you stand on that?

Mark Haydn (15:04)

Well, I think he would have been there after she died. So there's the Boudicca revolt, where she raises hundreds of thousands of people to fight against the Romans and enjoy some success originally. But Paulinus Suetonius ends up winning the day and after Boudicca dies, is killed. However, she passes. Nero transferred some troops from Germania to. To Britannia. And it's kind of been assumed throughout history that Titus, because he was in Germania probably around that time, and it's assumed that that's when he was transferred to Britannia. So he could have played a role as a tribune in subduing the remnants of the revolt, or he could have just been on guard duty. It's really impossible to know what he did because no one recorded anything about his time in the modern UK other than to say he did a good job.

Dan Snow (15:53)

So let's get back to Judea now. He's been given command by his dad, who's the emperor. He's besieging Jerusalem. He's built walls right round the city. There's cannibalism going on inside the city. It's just shocking. He's bringing down bombardment on the Jewish defenses. The climax of that siege, of that battle, is so important. Well, it's so shocking, but important for subsequent history as well, isn't it? Because, take me through it, Titus, legionaries, they stormed the city and they stormed Temple Mount.

Mark Haydn (16:18)

Right, so Jerusalem back in this era had three walls. They weren't concentric, they just kind of kept add to make sure that they could hold, protect the people that were there. And one by one, using siege ramps, siege towers and battering rams, Titus plows through, slowly but surely, these massive walls. And then what's really left at the end, where the biggest holdout is, is the Temple Mount. The Temple complex is where a lot of them are holding out. It's built exceptionally well and really, Titus and the Romans just have a terrible time breaking in. There's these skirmishes and Mark.

Dan Snow (16:53)

Sorry to interrupt there, Mark, we should say people will be familiar with the name Temple Moun. It's actually got the mosque on it now, it's Al Aqsa Mosque, but it was called the Temple Mount because it had the Jewish Temple on it. The great and famous Jewish temple.

Mark Haydn (17:03)

That's correct. So they finally, they have these skirmishes going back and forth. They're burning colonnades, they're burning these resplendent gates that are coated in silver. And finally the Romans get in and one by one, these legionaries start throwing firebrands into the Holy Temple. Now, it depends if you want to listen to Josephus or some of the other ancient writers. According to Josephus, which I don't believe this to be fully accurate, Titus convened his lieutenants and just try to figure out what to do with the temple. And he decides, let's give orders to save it. It's beautiful, it's a work of art, and it's never offended Titus. This is what we're told in Josephus. So they disseminate the orders and then the troops completely ignore him and they go and they try to burn it down. They loot it. They plunder the surroundings. And Titus even goes in person, tried to save it. He goes into the temple, like, okay, it's not lost yet. So he has lancers try to guard it and push back his own troops. Something, I just don't know if actually happened. But it was for naught. One soldier torched the hinges on the door, and then the temple was irreparably lost. And it's never been rebuilt since, which is a terrible reminder to the people, the Jewish faith, even to this day, of the tragedy that unfolded.

Dan Snow (18:18)

And over the following years, there would be a Roman temple, there would be a mosque, there would be a after First Crusade Christian site of worship there, that HQ of the Knights Templar, which is where they get that name. And then. And then obviously now is a mosque again, mosque complex. And that all takes back to this astonishing moment. What about the wider settlement? Did the Romans, Titus, achieve his aims here in Judea? Was Judea brought back to the fold? And what else did he do?

Mark Haydn (18:43)

So the fighting actually wasn't over when the temple fell, because a lot of the insurgents, the revolutionaries, they snuck out and then they hid in different parts of Jerusalem that hadn't been completely subdued, like Herod's palace. And some even went down into the sewers thinking that they could wait it out. And that was a deadly, deadly decision for them to do. And sewers are disgusting as is. And the Romans, they were not going to leave until they got all of them. So the fighting continued for some time, but the battle was largely over. And Titus again, according to Josephus, who's a Flavian propagandist, he wanted to make the Flavians look as merciful and as kind as possible, also showing that they killed so many people. He said that Titus, like, offered multiple times the insurgents the opportunity to leave Jerusalem, fight elsewhere, and he would save the city, he would secure the temple as well. And they rip off Tim every single time. So what happened is the fighting continued and he let his soldiers, as we already talked about, destroy the temple, but also the rest of Jerusalem leaving, I think only three towers standing. And those three towers were left standing as a testament to Titus supposed strength. So then all these temple contents that again, if Titus wanted to save the temple, he probably wouldn't have stolen all the contents of the temple, he probably would have left that to the Jews. But he steals all of the stuff and decides to take it back for his triumph. And like I mentioned, Josephus said over a million people died of the siege. Tacitus placed the number to no more than 600,000. Modern historians probably say more like a hundred thousand. Whatever the case, he also enslaved supposedly over a hundred thousand Jews where they were sent to mines, they were probably sent to arenas to die. It a brutal existence. And many of them, those poor people, they were sent to also walk through Titus and Vespasian's triumph through Rome, where they were probably had produce hurled at them and all sorts of insults. And then most of them were cast off to work in the mines where they died probably not long after.

Dan Snow (20:38)

Wow, so it's a Roman style piece.

Mark Haydn (20:41)

It is from Titus, the Romans, Vespasian's point of view at that point, Judea, Galilee, Perea, Idumea, that whole area was subdued, it was brought back into the fold. But I mean, it was utter devastation. Of course There were the three fortresses that they subdued in the following years. By 73 or 74 the war was over with from the Roman perspective. But some Sicari did escape and they went to Alexandria where they tried to foment another rebellion. Now the local Jewish population, they weren't having it and they ensured that there was no rebellion, a widespread one. But despite this, Titus and Vespasian show that they weren't as merciful and peaceful as you might think, or at least inclined to the Jews, because there was a Jewish temple in the Onias district and this stood as a kind of a minor rival to the Jerusalem Temple, where they could conduct sacrifices there. And after this supposed attempted uprising, they had that toppled. So again, if Titus wanted to save the temple in Jerusalem, would he also knock down another temple? I don't know. I mean, he just wanted to, to destroy stuff. And I think that he may have seen the Jerusalem Temple as the symbolic heart of the rebellion and destroying it was one of his priorities.

Dan Snow (21:54)

Probably the Jews that were left in Jerusalem on the round the city was destroyed, but the Jews were left out to pay a hated tax so the Romans could build a temple of Jupiter in the place of their temple, extraordinarily paid for by them. But then Titus, does he return to Rome? Well, I've seen the Arch of Titus in Rome, so presumably he and his dad think they've got lots to celebrate.

Mark Haydn (22:14)

Well, he doesn't go immediately and there's a theory about why. So it's September 70th AD when he's essentially finished in Jerusalem, but he doesn't sail back to Siena. And there's a theory why. So to the east of Rome is the Parthian Empire, and that's kind of their main rival. And in fact, the Parthians had kicked the Romans butts in the past when Crassus tried to invade. There's a theory that perhaps the Flavians were worried about the Parthians because they may have believed that the Romans were going to turn on them next. You already have upwards of 80,000 troops at your disposal and you're right at the back doorstep. Why not invade? So supposedly Titus hung around a little bit longer so that he could assuage their concerns. But while he was hanging out there and probably pretty bored in near east, he goes on this tour of all these cities where he kills just probably thousands of Jewish captives, throws them in arenas and lets them fight it out with animals or against each other to the death. And it's great fun for the Romans, but it's again a terrible and lamentable outcome for some of these people. But after he has enough of this, he eventually sails back to Rome with his captives, with all the booty they stole from the temple and then they march through Rome where they're received as conquering heroes. And Titus is this beloved figure, in the end he actually becomes essentially a demigod. I mean he's worshiped as a deity after he passes, but for the time, I mean he's this conquering hero who's beloved by the masses.

Dan Snow (23:46)

Listen to Dan Snow's history. We're talking about Titus. More coming up.

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Dan Snow (24:28)

Hi folks. I want to tell you about my latest series on Dan Snow's history. Now, I expect, like me, you have grown up reading or watching movies about pirates, swashbuckling rogues, having adventures on the high seas, disregarding authority, not taking it from the man, not taking any nonsense. What would you say if I told you that basically everything you think about pirates isn't true? Treasure maps, pirates, buried treasure. So what is true? Well, my latest series that is running all through this July with new episodes every Monday, answers that question. We'll be telling the real stories of the pirates, you know, Blackbeard, Captain Kidd and Anne Bonny. And I'll also be telling you astonishing tales of the pirates that you don't know, like Zheng Yi Sao, the Queen of the South China Seas. Definitely the most formidable pirate in history. So make sure you check out and follow Dan Snows history hit to get new episodes on pirates every Monday this month. Is his dad threatened by that or is this good for the regime? His dad's busy building the amphitheater, the so called Coliseum in Rome. He's trying to boost his credentials. Is this victory for the family seen as a good thing by the dad?

Mark Haydn (25:50)

Absolutely. This is fantastic news for the Flavian family as he's setting up a dynasty. It's very clear from the beginning that Vespasian intended for Titus to succeed him eventually. As soon as Vespasian becomes emperor, Titus becomes Caesar, so he's marked as the heir apparent already. And then they share a consulship, although it's in absentia since Titus is busy and waging war at the time. Then Vespasian endows with all these other powers, Tribunician, Potestas, essentially he has veto power. He can also convene the Senate, produce legislation, and he probably enjoys a degree of imperium even when he returns to Rome. So he has power over the provincial armies. He is clearly the heir apparent. He is Vespasian's right hand and in fact the triumph. They were offered two triumphs for this victory, but Vespasian says one's enough. Me and my son will do it together. So they march through as one. And I don't think that there's any real fear from Vespasian about Titus, although there's some hints of that in the ancient writings. I just don't really believe it. But despite this being a power sharing agreement between Vespasian and Titus, it's very clear that Vespasian is the one in control, because there's one instance in which Vespasian raises taxes and he needs to find creative ways to do it. So he has a urine tax that is instituted. It sounds weird to modern listeners and I understand that, but they used urine, human urine, for ammonia, so they would collect it and then they levied a tax on it. And this disgusted Titus, and to be honest, it is pretty disgusting when you think about it. So when the first tax collections come in, Vespasian holds the coins out to his son and he says, well, smell this. Does it have any odor? And Titus says, well, no. And Vespasian's response is, yet it comes from piss.

Dan Snow (27:39)

That's good. So he hasn't lost his rough and ready manners.

Mark Haydn (27:43)

No, he stays like that until the end. He's a very witty person. And I should also mention the remarks from some that maybe Vespasian was a little bit worried about Titus. I think we should cast that to the side, because Vespasian even made his son one of the praetorian prefects, so that made him head of the imperial guard over thousands of troops with one goal, and that is protecting the Emperor. So he wouldn't have made his son, given his son like the sword to protect him if he was really worried about Titus intentions.

Dan Snow (28:15)

Well, and he's a very sensible man, because the Praetorian prefect, they've got a record of, they're supposed to protect the emperor, but they often do exactly the opposite. So when Vespasian dies, you get that actually very rare thing in Roman imperial history, and certainly to this point unknown, which is a son inherits pretty much peacefully from the father. How did it go? How was the transition?

Mark Haydn (28:36)

It was immediate. Vespasian decided to go to the countryside after a long illness. At first, no one was concerned about it seemed pretty mild. But it got worse and it became clear that he was going to pass his positions. Was telling him to chill out, just relax, don't be doing all of your imperial work. And of course, Vespasian didn't do that. The famous thing that he says is, as he's slowly dying, is that woe is me, me thinks I'm becoming a God. Because a lot of emperors were deified upon their death. So this was like his wittiness toward the very end, and then about of diarrhea hits the guy and he says an emperor ought to die standing. And as he stands, he passes away. Whether Titus was with him or in Rome at the time is really unclear. But they had filled the senatorial ranks with pro Flavian allies. And then there was also the fact that Titus was the heir apparent. And this was presumably also in Vespasian's will that he wanted his son to replace him. And when you also factor in that Titus held many of the same powers as the emperor, had control of the Praetorian Guard, there was really no way they could appoint anyone else. So it was a seamless process. He was inaugurated, but it must have been a rather sad time because he also had to organize a funeral for his father and then inter his remains. They placed him in the Moslem of Augustus and eventually they created a temple of Espasian and Titus.

Dan Snow (30:04)

What do we make of Titus as an emperor? He might not be an emperor that many people will have heard of, also placed in the top 10, but he was pretty effective, wasn't he?

Mark Haydn (30:12)

Titus wasn't emperor for long and that was not his fault. But this is a person who, despite having some issues, showing some immaturity as a commander in Judea, as well as showing some kind of murderous and tyrannical tendencies as he protected his father, he became this emperor. He had this transformation. And this is kind of the, the enigma of Titus, you know, he was the antithesis of the so called paradox of power. While serving as Vespasian's right hand, Titus proved to be tyrannical, brutal and an unforgiving enforcer. But as an emperor, he transformed into this loving and merciful father like figure. He finished The Coliseum, held 100 days of games, which was something that, when you read the accounts, it's rather amazing everything that happened to the thousands of animals that died. That part's rather sad situation as we don't know how many slaves or gladiators died in this, which is lamentable as well. He built the, or at least finished the Baths of Titus, which was this bath complex given to the Roman people so that they could use. It was either subsidized or free to use, we're not really sure. And he had a good monetary policy which kept the economy fairly balanced. It was a rather peaceful time. And even when people tried to assassinate him, he proved incredibly merciful. There's this one instance of two patricians, these aristocrats, that had planned to kill Titus and somehow he found out about it and he brought them to the palace and he's like, hey guys, I. I know you're trying to kill me. And he also found out that one of their mothers knew about it and was worried that he was going to kill him. So he sent a note to the mother. He's like, don't worry, he's fine, I'm not going to assassinate this person. And he tells him he's Like, I'll give you anything you want. I just can't give you the imperial power that came to me by fate. But anything else, I'll give it to you. And to prove that he was fine with them and very forgiving, he invited them to a banquet. Now, they probably thought that they were going to be poisoned, but they weren't. And he goes a step further. He invites them to sit in the imperial box at the Coliseum, where ritually, people that are working there, they would hand the gladiatorial swords to the emperor, and he would check to see if they were sharp enough. He handed the swords to these conspirators, and just to let them know, you guys actually have the swords. I have nothing. I trust you, and I'm not going to hurt you. You. So this kind of shows what kind of peaceful and merciful person he became once he became emperor. Now, was it real? Who knows? He may have been using a little bit of relying on counselors to try to present himself as this really merciful person, because we know that his successor, Domitian, turned out to be a murderous tyrant. So there might have been a murderous tyrant hiding within Titus, but he just had really good advisors. We don't know.

Dan Snow (32:56)

And so he maintains pretty good relations with the senatorial class. You don't get these dramatic fallings out that you get with Nero, for example. What about the empire as a whole? Security? Was this a time of peace and stability?

Mark Haydn (33:09)

In most places, yes. But Agricola was busy in the uk, subduing regions and trying to push deep and according to some accounts, well into Scotland. So that was going on, and that actually started under Vespasian. But instead of sending his son Titus to do it, he relied on the local governor, who proved to be a. A very good commander. But other than this, it's a rather peaceful time. There is an instance of a pseudo Nero appearing. Someone who played the lyre, sang like Nero, looked like Nero in the East. And I don't really know what this guy wanted. Like, there was already an emperor. Did he think that they were going to go, oh, you're still alive. We're going to give you imperial power. We're very sorry about this, but he was a fraud. And I think that the Romans probably would have very quickly dispatched him, but he fled to the Parthian Empire, and the king decides to hold him in his custody, probably to try to undermine the Flavian position at some point. But it became clear even to the Parthians, that this guy was a fraud. I think they probably killed him after they were being frustrated with him for so long.

Dan Snow (34:13)

So the army, strong, as you say, Agricola, looking at conquest in Britain, maybe even Ireland, but elsewhere, not a time of expansion.

Mark Haydn (34:21)

No, this is really a very peaceful time for the Romans, say, for what's going on in the modern uk, and really they needed this. When Vespasian came to power, the Roman Empire was broken financially. There was the extended war in Judea, there were civil wars that had been siphoning away whatever money they had socked away. There was a great fire of Rome that took a lot of money to rebuild Rome, and there was heavy taxation in the provinces to try to cover this. So it was broken financially. Vespasian was able to get it on good financial footing. Titus continued that good fiscal responsibility as well. And part of that might have been, we don't want to go to war. Rome's expansion really slowed to this point. In Claudius's era, there was the expansion into England, but really, Nero, nothing happened. Vespasian, it was more about subduing what they already had. And really, I think they just needed to be content with what was going on currently, what they primarily had, and there was only so much that they could push forward. They wanted to go east, they had to fight the Parthians, they wanted to go north and east, they had to fight the Germanic tribes. And the Romans proved that they weren't terribly interested in that land couldn't grow great wine, so, you know, why go there?

Dan Snow (35:35)

So there's a time of retrenchment, time rebuilding and. Sounds pretty successful.

Mark Haydn (35:40)

Yeah, absolutely. And it was a good respite for them, and that continued for some time. And it's really probably a benefit to the Romans that there was a time of peace. I mean, war tended to bring in booty and plunder and wealth and new land that they could tax. But the peace allowed them to save money and prepare for what was coming. And under Titus's successor, Domitian, there were plenty of wars with different barbarian tribes, and this cost plenty of money. And Vespasian and Titus, their monetary policy was pretty solid. They didn't go through large debasements of their elite coin, which is known as a denarius, it was made of silver. And later, Roman emperors devalued it so much that it caused inflation, all sorts of problems. But Vespasian, Titus, they had a pretty consistent plan. Then Domitian, he increased the silver content, which is probably good in the long run, but he had to devalue it again once all these wars started happening and they Ran into the same problems. But Titus, he was a good financial administrator. This comes despite some of the terrible things that happened in his very short reign. There's a plague, there's another fire of Rome, and then there's Mount Vesuvius. That just bulldozed cities, covering them up, which only until the modern era have we uncovered some events, seen just the terrible destruction that erod.

Dan Snow (36:56)

Yeah. Well, let's talk about Vesuvius. The year he comes to the throne in 79. Vesuvius erupts. It destroys, you know, Herculaneum. Well, it covers Herculaneum and Pompeii and other settlements. What is the role of the emperor? What's the role of Roman state in trying to provide help? Or is it pretty hands off, pretty laissez faire?

Mark Haydn (37:13)

There's only so much about the emergency response. So the Roman welfare state. There is a bit of a welfare state. There's something known as the grain dole, where about 250,000 Romans within the city of Rome got free or subsidized grain on a regular basis. And this was the number two expenditure within the empire after the army. So they spent tons of money feeding people that were below the poverty line because there was a means test to make sure that rich people weren't taking free grain. So there was a role for Rome as a welfare state to some degree. And Nero even did this during the Great Fire of Rome. He built temporary housing for people. So there was a role in emergencies for the Romans. So Mount Vesuvius blows its top, and it is a terrible tragedy. As you mentioned, it covers Pompeii, Herculaneum, Aplontis, and probably some other smaller settlements as well. And it leaves this moonscape afterward. These people are frozen in time, but they're buried under all this pumice and all this ash and rock. What Titus does at this point, I'm quite sure that he uses some of his own purse to help a lot of these people that have been displaced. But he also gets a little creative because he sends some bureaucrats down there to try to provide assistance. And what they find is there's a lot of dead people, and dead people don't own land anymore. So they have this vacant land that they're able to either give to the people that have been displaced, or they can sell that land and use it to help rebuild some of these lives. So he does actively engage in trying to help his people in creative ways, too, Although I think some of it probably still came from the imperial purse. I don't Know how many people wanted to buy land that had just been destroyed by a volcano?

Dan Snow (38:52)

More on the Emperor Titus after this.

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Dan Snow (39:34)

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Mark Haydn (40:51)

Well, this is where it gets kind of fun for historians like me. So Titus has ruled for a couple years. He's incredibly popular, the masses love him. He's taking care of them. As you know a father like Emperor would be expected to be. And then he decides he wants to go vacation in the countryside in the Sabine country. So he goes out with some of his attendants and at the first watering hole, all of a sudden something is amiss. Titus is struck by a fever. And this is an incredibly high fever. And it's so fast acting and terrible that that Titus, he knows he's dying and he opens up his litter curtains and looks at the sky bemoaning his fate and complains to the gods. He's like But I've only made one mistake. And we could talk about what that might have been because he never discloses it, of course. And then they hurry him to the same farmhouse where his father died, and then Titus dies not long after. So the questions, you know, what did he die of? And what was his solitary sin that he was worried about? Well, let's start with how he died or what might have caused it. So the ancient authors, they love to trash talk Domitian, not a great emperor, and the senatorial class didn't like him. And the senatorial class is the one that tends to record history. So they said, well, clearly Domitian poisoned him. And they even say that he used a sea hare as the poison. Sea hares might kill dogs. I haven't heard of humans dying from it. It's. Perhaps there's a way. I'm not a pharmacologist or anything along those lines. There's that theory. They also said that Domitian ordered Titus to be put in ice as a cure. And that might make sense. If he had a high fever, he might put him in spice to try to bring that down. But they said that Domitian did that actually to hasten his demise. Why would Domitian want to kill Titus? I mean, there's. The ancients probably believe that Domitian wanted imperial power, and he might have. There's also the theory that Titus one regret is that he slept with Domitian's wife. Although there's absolutely no evidence based on this. Even the ancient writers thought that was a silly argument. They're like this lady, if she had slept with him, she would have bragged about it, and she never did that, so they don't think there's anything about that. They also thought perhaps his one regret is that he didn't kill Domitian for plotting against him. Again, this is like a post mortem character assassination. Titus and Domitian were probably pretty close. There's even coinage showing them holding hands, which is kind of weird now, but back then it was supposed to show that they were ruling together, at least on good terms with each other. What really seems to be the case is that in ancient Rome, in that part of the world, in September, that time frame, and when you factor in Titus's symptoms, malignant malaria seems to be most likely. So malaria was rampant anyway, malignant malaria, obviously much worse, causes a really bad fever, probably organ failure, and you die relatively quickly. And that seems to be more consistent with what happened with Titus as opposed to some of these other theories. So he probably died naturally. But what about his one regret? I think that there's several much more plausible last regrets than some of these other things. He might have regretted all of the death and destruction that he wrought on the Jewish people. That's something he definitely should have regretted. He could have regretted sending his paramour away, Berenice, who was a Jewish queen that he carried on a long relationship with, but he kicked her out of Rome on more than one occasion. You might have regretted that. He might have also regretted executing two of his friends when he was Praetorian Prefect for supposedly plotting against his father. So this is a man that he should have had plenty of regrets. He only had one and there's plenty of plausible ones that could have been it.

Dan Snow (44:35)

I don't think you can climb the greasy pole, become Roman emperor, fight on several campaigns and not have one or two little regrets. Mark, about some of the things you've seen and done. Did he reign long enough to have a legacy? Is he important in the great scheme of Roman emperors?

Mark Haydn (44:50)

All Roman emperors that reign more than a handful of days, because there's some of those later the Roman era that were there too short of a time to have any sort of impact. And even before, you know, Otho had no real impact on long term Rome. Yeah, he's very important. I mean, we see some of his works to this day. I mean, the Arch of Titus, which may have been constructed in his lifespan, is still there. Coliseum is still there. There's actually even a second Arch of Titus that there's only some rubble left over, but it's near the Circus Maximus. You can see some of the terrible handiwork in the Holy Land as well. There is unrest in the Holy Land to this day, and some of that you can trace back to Tyus. So whether it's a good legacy or a bad legacy, he has a legacy. He has importance. And really to the ancient Romans and Greeks, Titus was an exemplary Roman and a quintessential emperor who largely behaved with honor and integrity, save for some very notable episodes. But his sterling legacy, it has not survived intact to the modern era. And for good reason. Many of his acts are really more consistent with villains than they are with heroes.

Dan Snow (46:00)

That's interesting. So for subsequent Romans, he was a poster child. He was a good example of how emperors should comport themselves.

Mark Haydn (46:07)

He was excellent from their perspective. He did everything that you would want an emperor to do. He cared for his people, he ensured the grain shipments were on time. He provided 100 days of games, funded all sorts of stuff out of his own pocket when Rome caught on fire from his own purse, he helped rebuild it. When there was a plague. He conducted sacrifices, even looked at different medical treatments. He did everything that the Romans could have expected and brought peace or maintained peace in the empire, say, for whatever Agricola was up to. So this was a Roman, a pagan Roman, who was, like you said, the poster child for later Romans to emulate.

Dan Snow (46:45)

And before we say goodbye to Titus, Domitian, his brother, was not held in that regard. And indeed, that was the end. There was no more hereditary succession after that. We got another discontinuity coming up in the line of emperors.

Mark Haydn (46:59)

Yeah. For all of Vespasian and Titus work and hope to have a long succession, a dynasty, it ends up being pretty short. And to go back to what you're talking about, about whether Titus was an emperor with a legacy that we should care about today, you know, I believe Titus, the life of Titus is one of the greatest stories rarely told. It's a tale of an unlikely ascent to power, a veritable holy war in Israel, the Coliseum's rise, Pompey's fall, and his own tragic and untimely death. And much of this history has really been buried beneath centuries of silence, unfortunately. And while the ancient Romans loved and even worshiped Titus, considering him a model, modern historians, modern scholars have really overlooked the Roman and cast him aside, which has left unmistakable gaps in the modern record. And I'm hoping that my work will end some of his long term neglect.

Dan Snow (47:50)

Well, I'm sure you will, Mark. And you've done a good job of that right here on the podcast. Thank you for coming on. Tell us what your book's called.

Mark Haydn (47:56)

The book is called Emperor Titus, the Right Hand of Vespasian. And you should be able to buy it just about anywhere that they sell books.

Dan Snow (48:03)

Thanks, Mark. Thank you for coming on.

Mark Haydn (48:04)

Thank you.

Dan Snow (48:08)

Thanks very much for listening, everyone. Before you go, I have to tell you that ever at the cutting edge, the bleeding edge of what's new and exciting, after 10 years of the podcast, you can finally watch it on YouTube. We are moving fast and breaking things here, folks. Our Friday episodes each week will be available to watch on YouTube. And you can see me. You can see what we're talking about. I'd love it if you could subscribe to that channel over there. Just click the link in the show notes below and you can watch it on your phone, your tablet, or even a tv, or even a giant cinema movie screen, if you have one in your underground lair. See you next time, folks.

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