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Dan Snow's History Hit
Folk Christmas: Yule, Solstice & Ancient English Traditions
00:30:11
Dan explores the folk origins of some of our festive traditions
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- [00:01]
Dan Snow
Hi, I'm Dan Snow and if you would like Dan Snow's History Hit ad free, get early access and bonus episodes. Sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:27]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about, you insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch $45 upfront.
- [00:52]
Richard Reeves
Payment equivalent to $15 per month.
- [00:54]
Dan Snow
New customers on first three month plan.
- [00:55]
Vicki Bramshaw
Only Taxes and fees Extra Speed slower above 40GB.
- [00:57]
Ryan Reynolds
Details Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi Jenna.
- [01:08]
Vicki Bramshaw
Hi Dani.
- [01:08]
Ryan Reynolds
We are back for season six of a very merry iconic podcast here in 2024. It's good to be here. I'm so excited. We're gonna be covering holiday classics. We are diving back into the Halloweentown franchise for our annual Halloween episode. We're gonna be covering part two, Calabar's Revenge. Calabar's Revenge. We're also gonna be talking about miracle on 34th Street. I also have a Hallmark Chr Christmas movie coming out this year. Deck the Walls the Day After Thanksgiving. Maybe we'll cover that.
- [01:34]
Dan Snow
Yes.
- [01:34]
Ryan Reynolds
As well as diving into some of these other seasonal films that we love so much and others that sometimes we don't love so much.
- [01:41]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yeah, and we'll talk about it and hash it out.
- [01:42]
Ryan Reynolds
So what do we always say? Pour yourself some eggnog and enjoy a very merry iconic podcast. And a podcast coming holiday season 2024. Maybe even out now. So check your podcast feeds. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. AC hey prime members, you can listen to this show ad free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today.
- [02:13]
Dan Snow
Hello everyone and a very festive welcome to Dan Snow's history hit. This is the sound of the New Forest. In winter, the New Forest can be less of a forest and more of a bogus. And as ever, Mariana Deforges, the producer has refused to wear welly boots. She's wearing shoes and is soaking alongside me as I record these words long time. Listen to the podcast will know that this is an enduring feature of our relationship. Anyway, one day I will win the sensible footwear battle. I'm in the New Forest because a long time listeners, this podcast will also know this is where I live. This is my home. I'm just out here in a patch of forest which my kids love coming to. In the spring, we love just watching everything just bursting out of all the plants, the new shoots, the attention of the deer and the donkeys that roam around this landscape. In the summer, we come and search butterflies. We take part in butterfly counts and we swim in these streams. We love doing that. And we explore down the streams. In the autumn, we stalk the big pigs. Local people are allowed to turn loose on the forest, eat all the acorns that drop from the trees. And the winter, this time of year, well, it's a perfect time to look out for holly with its lovely ruby red berries. And also quite good because all the undergrowth dies back. You can spot all sorts of archaeological features, many of which date from the second World War. Buildings, airfields, even bunkers that are slowly being returned to nature, but which you can still make out. As I'm walking through the forest now, I'm looking at these trees, very, very bad. There's been some big storms last few weeks, so all the last remaining leaves that were clinging on have been blown off those branches. There's some hardy evergreen, some pines that hold onto their needles. I've spotted one or two little robins, which always seem more visible in winter, as ever. When you walk through the forest this time of year and you feel your toes getting colder and colder, your fingertips, you think what it must have been like living here in the past, dealing with this brutal time of year when food was scarce and you needed fuel to warm your house up, keep your family alive. And that's what I find fascinating about Christmas and these midwinter festivals is the obsession with warmth and light. Today it's grey in the forest. It's going to get dark in a couple of hours. So the depths of winter, bringing light, bringing joy, laughter, happiness and a full belly, has been so important to people and cultures all around the world. And that's why those winter solstice celebrations and traditions adapted, changed, augmented over the centuries, have finally given us Christmas in December. By the time you listen to this podcast, the solstice will have just passed a couple of days ago on the 21st of December. So this is a really fitting time, I think, to explore the history of solstice and particularly how rural people in this place part of England survived the winter and the customs that inform the celebrations that we have today. From decorating with greenery to storytelling by the fire. First up, I'm walking now to meet the very brilliant Richard Reeves, local historian. He has been on this podcast before. He's an absolute legend. He's going to teach me more about the New Forest, particularly this time of year over the ages, from when it was William the Conqueror's hunting grounds to traditional foresters, Christmas, and the Victorian and Edwardian obsession with bountiful hollyberries. Then, like all the best midwinter activities, it's going to end in the pub. I'm heading indoors, going to dive into the Yule traditions, things like burning logs and winter legends of Odin, the Holly King, the Oak King and Green Father Christmas. If you can, folks, I'd recommend listening to this episode while on a brisk winter walk of your own. Richard, we're back in the forest.
- [06:16]
Richard Reeves
Always good to be back in the forest.
- [06:18]
Dan Snow
Oh, it's just the weight lifts off your shoulders. For people that don't know about the New Forest, it's not all one big forest, isn't it? In fact, we're in a bit of an open bit now, but there's a plantation of trees to our left hook. Describe why you get these different types of land in the forest.
- [06:31]
Richard Reeves
Well, we are in one big forest, but not in the modern sense. We're talking about the medieval sense, which is a hunting ground, a royal hunting ground. And therefore you don't really need masses and masses of woodland. You need large areas of open ground which you can hunt over freely and such like. So it's a mix of ground, a mix of habitats. In fact, forests in the medieval period have included villages.
- [06:54]
Dan Snow
It was set up by William the Conqueror. William the Conqueror, Okay. And as a big hunting reserve for him.
- [07:00]
Richard Reeves
Absolutely. And the fact that it was likely his first hunting ground once he'd taken over England, he called it the New Forest because to him, it was a new forest in his new kingdom of England.
- [07:14]
Dan Snow
And what makes the forest area different to a normal area? Could only the king hunt deer in here? Is that the idea?
- [07:19]
Richard Reeves
So, basically, a forest in the loose sense of the. Of the term is an area of land which exists under forest law. So there's actually a specific set of laws that are enacted upon it. The Anglo Saxons had hunting areas, the Anglo Saxon kings, in fact, the New Forest was one of their areas which they hunted over, but they didn't have forest laws.
- [07:39]
Dan Snow
So it's midwinter at the moment. Everything's looking a bit dead. The leaves are on the ground, everything's waterlogged. What's going on in the natural world? What's going on in the. In the forest, generally?
- [07:49]
Richard Reeves
Well, during the winter, when things are tougher, things shut down, obviously. The leaves on the trees drop, and that's true of everything. The animals tend to hibernate or at least go into a period of much longer rest than they would otherwise. So everything's taking a back seat, really. Some of the actual birds actually become very territorial and they actually start their breeding very early on. Things like ravens and goshawks. Towards the end of winter, they're really already sorting their lives out. I mean, ravens in particular. I mean, come January, they'll be out there doing their territory, become very vocal. But basically it's a time of rest and conserving your energy for times of plenty.
- [08:29]
Dan Snow
But there are other trees and plants that have interesting fruit and flowers this time of year, aren't there?
- [08:34]
Richard Reeves
So, yeah, I mean, one of the other sort of winter spectacles, I guess, of pretty much most woodlands in the UK is the Hollywood. And the New Forest actually became really central to that trade, because if you went to London, you might find a bit of trouble getting your holly. So if you went Back to the 1930s, in December, the forest was full of people cutting holly for the decoration trade. In fact, there are still licensed holly cutters in the forest today. However, back in, say, the 1930s, the trade was at its peak, so much so that there was actually special holly trains which were just cartload after cartload of holly that would be taken up to London to supply the London demand for holly berries and basically holly to be turned into Reeves.
- [09:23]
Dan Snow
So what do you think about William the Conqueror? How would he have used the sun to, particularly during mid winter? Would this have been. Was deer hunting something they liked doing this time of year, for example?
- [09:31]
Richard Reeves
Probably for the King. He would have probably exploited it much more at the beginning of the hunting season. However, the locals, they're going to think of it slightly more differently. Winter is difficult for them. You know, you're going to be running low on food, so poaching is definitely going to be an issue. The foresters are going to have to be much vigilant during the winter season because people are much more desperate now in the forest. Yeah, people had common rights and those common rights did buffer you somewhat. You know, you turned your pigs out in the autumn, before the winter, and they'd fed on the acorns and when you bought them in, you may well have, you know, slaughtered them when they were nice and fat and you have a big store of bacon in your house, so you wouldn't necessarily be as starving as people that didn't have common rights. But still, you know, there's always a temptation if there's a bit of venison wandering past your back door.
- [10:21]
Dan Snow
So in mid winter, people are hungry. There's deer here, there's venison. Are there any other food sources in the forest this time of year?
- [10:29]
Richard Reeves
Most of the time in the New Forest, the weather's not too bad. You know, it's pretty mild down here, we're near the coast and so it doesn't get too bad, but when it does, it can have a real big impact. So one of the worst years from a winter point of view was 1787. And in that year the snow laid on the ground for so long it sort of hardened off. And people would go out hunting hares. They'd walk along the crisp top surface of the snow, they'd find holes where they could see steam rising. They'd go in and shoot through the holes. And every time they bring out a hare, they could just hunt hares by seeing the breathing holes through the snow where the hares were running around underneath.
- [11:11]
Dan Snow
And people living in the forest around the edges of it, are they using wood and branches for fuel?
- [11:16]
Richard Reeves
So if you were in a larger house, if you were a more established building, particularly a farmhouse or such like, you probably had the right vest overs and estovers is an interesting right because it's the origin of the word. By hook or by crook, you could actually take the amount of firewood you needed to supply your home. But you weren't allowed to just take any, any wood you wanted. You couldn't go out and just cut down an oak tree and take the whole tree. If you could put a, put a hook up into the tree and pull off a dead branch and it would come out, that'd be fine. You know, you're allowed to take dead wood. You weren't allowed to take any living or green wood, though of course the temptation was to always do that. As time went by, the actual lack of deadwood became a problem because there was a greater demand for wood than what was actually out there.
- [12:03]
Dan Snow
All right, so Richard, we've been strolling through the forest. I think it's time, like all true born Britons, we are going to retreat to the pub after putting up with some pretty damp and chilly conditions out here. Talk, talk to about food, Talk to them at this time of year, what else would people have been eating?
- [12:19]
Richard Reeves
The most important, if you like, of Winter Fair was skuggy pie.
- [12:24]
Dan Snow
Skuggy pie.
- [12:25]
Richard Reeves
Skuggy Pie, yeah. Made of squirrel. And this was the red squirrel, not the grey squirrel you see today, but the red squirrel. And, you know, it was considered a pest in the timber production department. So back before the Second World War, they'd have hunting parties and those hunting parties would go out on Boxing Day, spend all morning out hunting for squirrels. The squirrels would all be collected and they'd be taken back to the local pubs. So my family's from Brockenhurst, and they would get involved in the squirrel hunts up near Rhymefield. And then they'd all return to the Foresters Arms in Brockenhurst, where Mrs. Masters, who was then the wife of the landlord, would prepare scuggy pie and they'd all go home for the afternoon and then in the evening return to the pub and have a big feast. And that was actually common in a number of the pubs throughout the New Forest.
- [13:16]
Dan Snow
Well, all that talk of pies and festive celebrations has got me even keener to head to the pub now. So I'm dragging the team across the forest to a very, very cozy pub that I know about. We're going to retreat in there, we're going to get some food, we're going to get some drink and we're going to warm up. And staying warm next to a big old hearth in a. In a home or a pub, it's a winter staple for centuries in these northern climes, because, friends, it does get cold and damp and around those fires is where people would talk, they'd hang out, they'd tell stories, they'd pass those long winter nights. I remember when I was a child, my Welsh grandmother, my Welsh nine, would tell stories, just as she used to do with her nine, and I expect an unbroken chain stretching back for centuries. So in that vein, sitting beside that warm fire now waiting for us is Vicki Bramshaw. She is a local historian who specializes in not only the history but also the folklore of the New Forest. And she's going to tell us all about the festive traditions associated with rural life in Britain, from the good old pagan winter solstice to tales of Woden and the Wild Hunt. After this. This episode is sponsored by Rosetta Stone. Christmas gifts can be tricky. You want to get something for friends and loved ones that's meaningful and lasting. I understand. This Christmas, give the gift that truly keeps on giving. A lifetime membership to Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program that truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. I love how easy it is to use. It is on your mobile. It is on your desktop. They've worked out how to make sure that we retain this langu. They set clear milestones to help you achieve your language goals. So if you need a gift idea or a last minute gift, give your family and friends the gift of language today. Dan Snow's history hit listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit www.rosettastone.com dansnow. That's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life with no shipping Fees. Redeem your 50% off at www.rosettastone.com Dan Snow today for yourself or as a gift that keeps giving.
- [15:36]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [15:58]
Richard Reeves
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Dan Snow
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Richard Reeves
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Vicki Bramshaw
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Richard Reeves
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- [16:07]
Vicki Bramshaw
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Dan Snow
Be a gladiator facing a roaring crowd.
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Vicki Bramshaw
And potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History hit Twice a week, leading experts and academics delve into our distant past.
- [16:22]
Dan Snow
And discover secrets thought lost to the sands of time.
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- [16:29]
Dan Snow
Exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans.
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Vicki Bramshaw
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- [16:47]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [17:01]
Dan Snow
Well Vicki, this is nice, isn't it? We are in a pub. We're right next to the fireplace. There's a back plate there saying 1672 behind the fire. And we've both got a delicious festive drink in front of us.
- [17:12]
Vicki Bramshaw
We have lovely cider.
- [17:14]
Dan Snow
Looking at that fire, it makes me think people throw around the expression the Yule log. What? Does it exist? What is the Yule log?
- [17:20]
Vicki Bramshaw
So I think the first thing that we really need to consider is how different Christmas or the Yule time would have been for our ancestors. It would have been very different than it is for us today. It was a period of darkness, uncertainty, you know, winter as it draws in.
- [17:38]
Dan Snow
Sounds quite similar to today.
- [17:39]
Vicki Bramshaw
It is similar. When you look out of the window, it's just pretty cold and horrible, miserable. But, you know, we've got a lot of things to support us today. We've got our heating, we've got our lighting and things obviously very, very different for our ancestors. And this period of time, you know, those dark months between, you know, the time when the nights start drawing in and we start approaching Christmas and New Year, this would have been a real time where people would have had to think about what was important to them and preserving and getting everything ready for the winter time and all of those sorts of things that do kind of surround Christmas anyway.
- [18:15]
Dan Snow
So you'll just. On a basic level, we're talking about lovely, big bit of firewood to burn, are we? Yeah.
- [18:20]
Vicki Bramshaw
A specific piece of wood would have been chosen. So it would have been wood that somebody had identified as a decent piece of wood that would get them through the Christmas nights. It was either a larger piece that was held back for that particular day and it was cut from perhaps a significant tree as well that was felled earlier in the year. It would have been a large piece and it would have meant that people didn't have to go back to the fire to keep putting wood on. It would have taken them through that period of festivities.
- [18:46]
Dan Snow
So we're talking about a big old piece of wood?
- [18:49]
Vicki Bramshaw
Well, as big as would fit in your hearth. The idea is, you know, it is supposed to be a downtime during Christmas. You know, it's supposed to be a time where we can sit back and we can rest. And that was something that was really relevant to our ancestors and their servants and the tradesmen and the worksmen, you know, to be able to have that downtime away from the fireplace and just let it tick over and let it burn. So that was the practical side of it, really.
- [19:14]
Dan Snow
It is interesting how that sort of vibe around Christmas has endured. It's a time now where you're not really supposed to send work emails around Christmas.
- [19:20]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yeah. It's a time to kind of sit back and kind of ponder the year that's gone and the year that's coming. You know, the kindling from last year's Yule log was quite often used on this year's fire, kind of linking those two Yule logs. Together, if you like, linking one end of the year to the next as it's approaching. And there are loads of pieces of folklore and traditions and superstitions that surround the Yule log as well. So the fireplace itself was considered as an entry to spirits, and those spirits could be positive or negative spirits. The Yule log, therefore, was also this way of protecting the home and protecting the hearth from spirits that were coming down through the chimney. This was a real belief and this has come through into our modern conception of what happens that magical side of Christmas, and particularly Christmas Eve.
- [20:14]
Dan Snow
I spent a lot of time, I charm as a child, Christmas midwinter, with my grandma, my Welsh nine, telling me stories around the fire. So this feels like very familiar.
- [20:21]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yeah. And that would have been a really important part of our ancestors lives through the winter. They would have had songs, folk tales, poems and those sorts of things just to kind of lighten the mood and just make the nights not feel so long, really. And we've got lots of records of those tales.
- [20:40]
Dan Snow
Give me a couple of examples.
- [20:41]
Vicki Bramshaw
So one significant story that we have that started off, in fact, in northern Europe, in the Germanic countries, that of Woden, the God Woden, otherwise known as Odin. And he was brought to Britain, and particularly the south of England, by the Anglo Saxons, and they were here as late as the 9th century, which is interesting because Christianity was kind of already established here by that time. And really the tale of Woden, who was a God or a deity of the Germanic peoples, became kind of interwoven into our folk tales and stories. And he was believed to fly across the skies of the New Forest on his horse. Who was? Sleipnir. His horse was called sleipnir over the 12 days of Christmas. And it was an omen to see him. It could be a good omen, it could be a bad omen. And there's been lots of poems and stories that have been written about this, but there's one poem that I like written by Lavrans. Karl Riemer. The coming of the light in this darkest, coldest night Gather in with kith and kin Light the need Fire burning bright Kindle by the flame within Hear the mighty hoof beats thunder as the wild hunt rules the night Fear not the sound of Sleipnir's passing Hail the coming of the light Celebrate the great wheels turning in this darkest, coldest night with the Yule log burning brightly Sing and praise the coming light Gather round the hearty table we have laid a harvest feast Fortified against the darkness Light is rising from the east raise the horn in merry toasting feast and greet the coming light. Sing wassail with kith and kindred Praise the passing of the night. Hail, wassail to friend and family, Frith and troth, on this dark night we are all one with kith and kinsmen. Hail the coming of the light. So really, what this poem is telling us is that Woden signified the darkness. He represented winter. And this idea of him flying across the skies of the forest at night, he's taking that darkness with him. He's picking up the souls that maybe have been lost over winter, which would have been a serious consideration for people in the past. And with his passing comes the new life and the rebirth at the solstice or at Christmas time.
- [23:14]
Dan Snow
Tell me the importance of the solstice and how that fits into people's plans for the year.
- [23:21]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yule, the word itself comes from the Norse jol, which means to shine. So we're looking at a time of the year when we are waiting for the sun's renewal. And that's just one point in an entire agricultural year and solar year. And if we think about how our ancestors were so connected to the earth, to the land beneath their feet, pretty much everybody was connected to the earth in some way. They were working with their hands. It was physical work, it was practical work. These seasons that they were marking with festivals were really important. You know, there was no separation between the festivities and the everyday life. The 24 7, if you like, the 9 till 5. So this time of year, it's kind of. It's a tipping point. It's a transition onto that next festival, the turn on the wheel, if you like.
- [24:14]
Dan Snow
And we did a podcast on Samhain, Halloween, that sort of late autumnal festival. In the gap between that and Christmas, what are people up to? What are they doing?
- [24:22]
Vicki Bramshaw
We see people starting to recognise that they're going to need to get the larder stocked up. So we see the first harvest, which is the harvest of the grain. We then see at the autumn equinox, which is harvest of fruits. It's called the second harvest. So it's then that people are starting to store things in jars. They're pickling, you know, they're sorting meats and all of those sorts of things. And also a few days, kind of running up to Christmas Day. They would have had a fast, depending on what time we're looking at. In the past, our ancestors would have fasted for a period of time. So Christmas Day with the pork on the table would have Been a real time of release, if you like. You know, having those joints that have been smoked over the fire in the traditional New Forest way.
- [25:06]
Dan Snow
This feels sort of medievally, or is it spread much wider than that quite often?
- [25:11]
Vicki Bramshaw
We're talking about huge spans of time. We're talking about time perhaps that goes right back to the Neolithic times when people were starting to build some of those monuments to the winter solstice, right the way up to perhaps even the modern day, because people are still practicing some of these festivals today. The medieval period was not a time when you would have seen winter solstice being celebrated, but what you would have seen is lots of bits of pieces and mishmash, let's say, of family traditions, Christian traditions, of Christmas proper, but also those folk memories and those traditional things that families did that would have been passed down from generation to generation. So those are memories, or remainders, if you like, of those older folk beliefs, and people held onto that despite Christianity. So the Christmas that we see today is a combination of all of these things from a huge span of time.
- [26:10]
Dan Snow
Speaking about Christmas, what are some of the fun folk traditions that you've identified? Looking at Christmas and Midwinter, although the.
- [26:17]
Vicki Bramshaw
Christmas of our ancient ancestors in the British Isles seems really kind of like worlds apart from something like Saturnalia at times in history, they did actually have a lot in common. You know, we find these, the themes of disorder to boundaries, social rules being suspended, parties, gambling, feasting, banquets, all of these sorts of things. A misrule was something that we see through the Saturnalia. And in that we find these kind of darker characters which we find running through that period of time from Samhain into Christmas. And some of them are kind of quite unusual. You would think that was quite unusual, kind of an antithesis of what Christmas is all about, such as the Krampus, who also is of Germanic origin. He's quite a scary, dark heretic of Christmas passed, who was kind of like the polar opposite to our Father Christmas. So whereas Father Christmas would bring presents to all of the good boys and girls, the Krampus would be a terrifying monster with long claws who would come in and would terrify your children if they had been naughty. So it was a strange time. It was a period of kind of like otherworldly creatures visiting our world, and particularly between Christmas Day and the Twelfth Night, this is a very strange period. It's called the In Between Nights Between Christmas and the Twelfth Night, with the Twelfth Night being kind of like the peak point when very strange things would happen and Some of those were these creatures actually visiting your home. And we see that in Mumming, which is kind of simple masked plays. And they all seem to have this menacing kind of like dark humour about them.
- [28:01]
Dan Snow
Yeah, I've heard the mummeries that. That was a particular time of year, this. They would peak over the winter. Would they?
- [28:07]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yeah, quite often you would just have one or two key players and they would be dressed in sort of sheets or dark robes and they would have normally an animal skull, so they would have a horse skull or sometimes a bull skull, and they would act out these plays. And we find this idea of them turning up at your door and demanding things, a bit like in Halloween, where you have trick or treating, they used to call it gooding and mumping. They would turn up at the door and you would be demanded for food and drink and those sorts of things. And if you didn't, one of those players would kind of run like rush after you through the house and terrify you. One of them is the Hooden horse, which is common across the British Isles by kind of different names. And the Wiltshire Woozer, which was also local to here, who was a bull skull or sometimes a horse skull with antlers. And he was either character, a dressed man who had an outfit on, or he was a skull that was mounted on a pole with snapping jaws. So quite scary, really, you know, if you see one of those coming to your door and demanding, you know, hot cider or something like that, and sometimes they would be the ones that would offer you a hot cider, but you would have to cross their palm with silver in return. And if you didn't, there would be implications for that. And we see lots of short lyrics or spells, if you like, curses that would be placed upon a home if you didn't give them some money. And so here we see the trickery part of trick or treating.
- [29:36]
Dan Snow
So that's quite terrifying. Are there any things that you've identified that are quite peculiar in particular this area?
- [29:42]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yeah, one of the things which was common around here was the burning of candles down to give an omen of death. So this was another one of those probably quite dark kind of pastimes that people would carry out over those long nights. And if you wanted to know who would die first between the two of you, you'd both light a candle at the same time and then whoever's candle burnt out first was the person to die first. So that's a really cheerful thing to do over Christmas Eve, isn't it? But there is this idea of fortune telling. We do see that over the period, and probably because, much like Halloween, it was a time where the spirits were seen to be close to their families and perhaps will be able to give you messages. So there's one also that was quite popular in this area, which was doing divination or fortune telling by roast chestnuts. So the first is, if you had a group of fair maidens, you would all place one chestnut in the fire, and whose ever chestnut burst first, you would be the first to be married. The second is possibly not. One I would do myself is if you're already in a couple, both of you would take a chestnut and you would place that in the fire. If the chestnuts jumped towards each other, then it was a happy union, and if they jumped apart, then the relationship was doomed.
- [31:03]
Dan Snow
That's a lot of responsibility on the chestnut.
- [31:05]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yeah, absolutely. There are many other types of divination that were popular in this area and elsewhere, actually.
- [31:13]
Dan Snow
Right, Vicki, thank you so much. This has been so fun. If people want to learn more about the folk history this time of year, but particularly perhaps in the New Forest, you've got a book out?
- [31:20]
Vicki Bramshaw
Yes, I do. It's called New Forest Folklore, Traditions and Charms.
- [31:23]
Dan Snow
Well, Vicky, that brings us to the end, really. Why don't you play us out, give us one last midwinter folk story while I finish this last little bit of beer here.
- [31:32]
Vicki Bramshaw
So we're all familiar with Father Christmas, who brings presents to children over the Christmas period. Originally, he was a bit of a leader of games to our ancestors. He didn't actually start passing out presents to children until he was crossed with the Saint Nicholas, the patron of children later in history. So despite being linked with St Nicholas, he's also connected all those older folk characters and older narratives, such as all of those spirits of the green that were found in the forest at that time of year and were known to roam the British Isles. So Father Christmas originally was green. He wore green and he wore furs, and he was associated with some of those trees that were recognisable at this time of the year in the forest. So one of those stories is of the Holly King and the Oak King. And the Holly King represents the darker period of time, the dark six months before the year. And the Oak King represents the light side of the year. And so this story is all about a battle between those two kings at this time of the year at the winter solstice. This is a story that I actually wrote for my son, and it's just a short poem about the winter Solstice. Twas four nights before Christmas, and all through the house nothing was stirring, not even and that mouse. Yet out in the forest by moonlit glade, Two trees gently swaying, a bargain being made. The first is the holly, our evergreen friend. On his wintergreen we can always depend. He reigns through the winter Whilst all around people make merry and snow covers the ground. His red berries shine against white snowy down. Of all the trees in the wood, the Hollywood wears the crown. The people, they love him but forget you see that our Santa was once the spirit of a tree. But wait, who is this that enters the scene? A broadleaf oak, all rugged and lean. Mistletoe adorns his glistening beard, Another memory of festive cheer. He raises his staff and says with a roar, holly king, brother, prepare to do war. A battle ensues. Two staves well matched, a sound of the ages. Like antlers they crash. Which king shall avail? Only time would tell. But as fate would have it, twas the holly that fell.
- [33:59]
Dan Snow
And with that, everyone, I am thoroughly in the Christmas mood. This whole series has put me in it. I'm ready to enjoy myself over the next few days. Thank you for listening to everyone. For our final episode of our Origins of Christmas series, come and enjoy a very Dickensian Christmas. I walk the streets of Victorian London, following the footsteps of Scrooge and the ghosts of Christmas past. And until then, you can just imagine me unmoving, sitting by this fire, enjoying a delicious pint and the peace of a crisp winter's day outside here in the beautiful new forest. See you next time.
- [34:57]
Vicki Bramshaw
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- [35:28]
Ryan Reynolds
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