How the Mongols Changed the World

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dan Snow's History Hit - "How the Mongols Changed the World"

Release Date: December 20, 2024

In the episode titled "How the Mongols Changed the World," historian Dan Snow delves into the expansive and enduring legacy of the Mongol Empire. Featuring an insightful interview with Marie Favreau, Associate Professor of History at Paris and Ontario University, the discussion sheds light on the often overlooked western segment of the Mongol Empire and its profound impact on Eurasian history.

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1. Introduction to the Mongol Empire

Dan Snow sets the stage by highlighting the unprecedented expanse of the Mongol Empire, which stretched from Korea to Poland and down into China and South Asia. He introduces Marie Favreau’s work, emphasizing her focus on how the Mongols administered their vast territories beyond their initial conquests.

Dan Snow [01:30]: "The Mongols built an empire that stretched from Korea to Poland down into China and South Asia. It is one of the most extraordinary imperial stories in our history."

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2. The Western Mongol Empire

Marie Favreau elaborates on the western portion of the Mongol Empire, encompassing regions of modern-day Russia, southern Siberia, southern Caucasus, and parts of Eastern Europe. She underscores the significance of this segment, which is less frequently discussed in mainstream historiography.

Marie Favreau [02:38]: "We are looking at the western part of the Mongol Empire, and it covers what is Russia today, including southern Siberia and also including southern Caucasus and part of Eastern Europe."

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3. The Mongols in European History

Favreau connects the Mongol Empire to European historical developments, challenging the Eurocentric view that often sidelines Asian influences. She emphasizes the integral role the Mongols played in facilitating trade and cultural exchanges between East and West.

Marie Favreau [03:10]: "The Mongol Empire is also connected to European history, and this is something we're not used to know. This was a key aspect of the trade connection of the Mongols with the outside world through Europe."

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4. Reevaluating Mongol Historiography

Addressing the traditional portrayal of the Mongols, Favreau argues that historiography has unfairly marginalized their contributions. She points out that the Mongol Empire’s administrative sophistication and longevity have often been underestimated.

Marie Favreau [03:52]: "The historiography wasn't fair to the Mongols. Their empire was seen as a short moment, like huge but short in time and not well developed in terms of administration."

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5. Mongol Conquests and Military Prowess

While acknowledging the Mongols' reputation as formidable warriors, Favreau highlights their strategic ingenuity in governance. They employed indirect control mechanisms, taxation, and administrative tools to manage their vast empire despite not being numerically superior to sedentary populations.

Marie Favreau [05:21]: "They would have a very indirect way of controlling access to the resources. They developed tools like taxation and administrative tools as well. So it's not only about war."

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6. Administration and Governance Post-Conquest

Favreau discusses the unique nature of Mongol governance, characterized by their nomadic lifestyle which facilitated mobility and flexibility in administration. The Mongols maintained control through strategies that emphasized indirect governance and the integration of local leaders.

Marie Favreau [06:20]: "This was nomadic power. The Mongols would never sedentarize. They remained nomads, which gave them a lot of mobility and the ability to cross huge rivers."

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7. Trade and the Pax Mongolica

Drawing parallels to the Pax Romana, Favreau introduces the concept of "Pax Mongolica," a period of relative peace that enabled extensive trade and cultural exchanges across Eurasia. She describes this era as a form of pre-modern globalization, with the Mongols establishing vast trade networks that extended even into Northern Europe.

Marie Favreau [07:52]: "I like the word actually Mongol exchange, which I use in my book. It's a big moment of globalization, pre-modern globalization, but it goes beyond the frontiers of the Mongol Empire and reaches Northern Europe as well."

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8. The Organization of Nomadic Camps

Contrary to the stereotypical image of chaotic hordes, Favreau portrays Mongol camps as highly organized "mobile cities." These camps were multifunctional, housing not just warriors but also families, administrators, craftsmen, and marketplaces, underscoring the sophisticated social structure of the Mongol Empire.

Marie Favreau [09:18]: "They were extremely organized. A lot of discipline can be seen in these camps. They are not only for armies but are more like mobile cities with women, children, administration, craftsmanship, and markets."

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9. Mobility and Communication: The Yam System

Favreau explains the dual nature of Mongol mobility—seasonal movements and the efficient Yam system, an intricate network of relay posts that facilitated rapid communication across the empire. This system enabled messengers and ambassadors to traverse vast distances swiftly, ensuring cohesive governance and information flow.

Marie Favreau [10:43]: "They organized what we call the yam system, a very complex posts and supply system that would allow horsemen to cross the whole empire quickly."

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10. Relations with Europe and the Western Frontier

The discussion shifts to the Mongols' interactions with European regions such as Poland and Lithuania. Favreau highlights the dual nature of these relationships, encompassing trade partnerships and occasional tensions, positioned around the Northwestern frontiers near the Black Sea steppe.

Marie Favreau [17:03]: "They have had a lot of deep relationship with the Mongols. They trade together and there were tensions sometimes too. The frontier was around what is Bulgaria today."

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11. Communication Across the Empire

Favreau provides insights into the logistics of communication within the empire, estimating that messages could traverse from Crimea to the lower Volga Valley in about one and a half to two months, and from Central Asia to China via land routes in approximately six months. She speculates that secret messengers might have achieved faster transit times.

Marie Favreau [18:27]: "It took around a month and a half, perhaps two months to send messages across the empire... They were among the faster horsemen at that time."

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12. Revisiting Historical Sources and Research Methodology

Favreau outlines her research approach, which combines traditional written sources with archaeological findings and firsthand exploration of Mongol territories. This holistic methodology has enabled her to uncover new perspectives on the Mongol Empire's administrative and geographical strategies.

Marie Favreau [20:04]: "I looked into written texts produced by the Mongols themselves. I also looked at coinage as objects, archaeology, and landscape. Visiting the Volga Valley and Crimea changed my view of their organization."

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13. Overcoming Eurocentric Narratives

Favreau critiques the Eurocentric narratives that have historically downplayed the Mongols' role in Eurasian history. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing the Mongols as sophisticated administrators and city builders who successfully integrated sedentary populations into their empire.

Marie Favreau [22:04]: "With the Mongols, I could demonstrate that they were also city builders. They were able, through their imperial organization, to accommodate sedentary communities."

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14. Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of the Mongols

The episode concludes with an appreciation of Favreau's contributions to recontextualizing the Mongol Empire. Her work challenges preconceived notions and highlights the Mongols' significant role in shaping the historical and cultural landscapes of Eurasia.

Dan Snow [22:53]: "Thank you very much for talking to us."

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Notable Quotes

• Dan Snow [01:30]: "The Mongols built an empire that stretched from Korea to Poland down into China and South Asia. It is one of the most extraordinary imperial stories in our history."

• Marie Favreau [03:52]: "The historiography wasn't fair to the Mongols. Their empire was seen as a short moment, like huge but short in time and not well developed in terms of administration."

• Marie Favreau [09:18]: "They were extremely organized. A lot of discipline can be seen in these camps. They are not only for armies but are more like mobile cities with women, children, administration, craftsmanship, and markets."

• Marie Favreau [20:04]: "I looked into written texts produced by the Mongols themselves. I also looked at coinage as objects, archaeology, and landscape. Visiting the Volga Valley and Crimea changed my view of their organization."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Dan Snow's History Hit offers a comprehensive reevaluation of the Mongol Empire, particularly its western territories. Marie Favreau's research illuminates the sophisticated administrative practices, extensive trade networks, and organized societal structures that enabled the Mongols to sustain one of history's largest empires. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how the Mongols not only conquered vast lands but also integrated diverse cultures, fostering a legacy that continues to influence the modern world.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here for I guess my hundredth Mint commercial.

[Marie Favreau]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Don't, don't, don't. No. I mean, honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming. Here, give it a [e-mail] switch whenever you're ready.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

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[Acast Representative]

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[Host]

Hello everyone.

[Dan Snow]

Welcome to Dance to Notes History. The greatest contiguous land empire ever carved out, the Mongols. The Mongols built an empire that stretched from Korea to Poland down into China and South Asia. It is one of the most extraordinary imperial stories in our history and Marie Favreau has written a beautiful, a wonderful book about it. She's associate professor of history at Paris and Ontario University. The Mongols are known for their conquest.

[Host]

What Mary Favreau was able to was.

[Dan Snow]

Talk to me all about how they ran a huge empire in the aftermath that initial wave of conquest. She talks about the cross border integration, trade messengers, the landscape.

[Host]

It is absolutely extraordinary.

[Dan Snow]

I'm massively excited about this podcast. Here is Marie Favreau talking about the mongol horde.

[Ryan Reynolds]

T minus 10 atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

[Marie Favreau]

God save the king. No black white unity till there is first some black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And liftoff. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Host]

Marie, thank you very much for coming on.

[Marie Favreau]

Hello. Thank you so much for your invitation. I'm delighted to be here.

[Host]

What part of the Mongol empire are we looking at?

[Marie Favreau]

So we are looking at the western part of the Mongol Empire, and it covers what is Russia today, including southern Siberia and also including southern Caucasus and part of Eastern Europe.

[Host]

It is a source of extraordinary fascination. How close? Obviously, I'm being very Eurocentric here, but the Mongols, you know, they get to within sight of Vienna. This is a very European story. It's not a story in distant East Asia.

[Marie Favreau]

Absolutely. And that also was a very important aspect of my research. So the people that the Mongol Empire is also connected to European history, and this is something we're not used to know. And I thought that it was really important to show that this was a key aspect of the trade connection of the Mongols with the outside world through Europe.

[Host]

Why is it that traditionally the Mongols didn't feature in traditional historiography? Is it seen that they kind of got lucky, conquered a big empire, and then were subsequently eclipsed by the great European empires? Perhaps the Mughal emperor in Southern Asia, and then the reassertion of Chinese rule in East Asia. Like, why do wonderful books like yours come along and just blow all our minds?

[Marie Favreau]

Yes, I do agree with you. I mean, the historiography wasn't fair to the Mongols. In fact, their empire was seen as a short moment, like huge, but short in time and not well developed in terms of administration. Well, in fact, actually, we know now that it lasted, at least in the Western part, until the end of the 15th century. So was three centuries of power and a very special power organization on the ground. So I think that one of the main reasons probably is that for the Russians, for the Chinese, but also for the Middle Eastern powers like the Iranians, it was good to see the end of the Mongol Empire very early on because it meant that their own national states would be seen as developing earlier than it actually was. So, I mean, let's say that the Mongols disturbed nationalist historiographies everywhere in Eurasia. That's why it was really important for me to sort of recommunicate to wider audience the real truth of that part of history, that big moment of history.

[Host]

Disturbing nationalist historiographies is my jam. I'm a big fan of that. Talk to me first about conquest. The bit that people might know, of course, is they were extraordinary warriors, covering vast distances, using mobility like almost no other force in history. Is that fair? Should we remember that initial military period of conquest? What was remarkable about them in that period?

[Marie Favreau]

Well, that's true that they were special warriors, but at the same time, they were not very numerous. And they had to develop other strategies sometimes also to impress people because they were not so numerous, if we compare with, you know, the sedentary communities, the sedentary subject in China, in Iran, in the Russian principalities. So they had to be clever in that sense. They would have a very indirect way of controlling access to the resources. So they will really map the territories they want to control and they will not be interested in having direct control, but really indirect control was more important for them. And they will develop tools like taxation tools, administrative tools as well. So it's not only about war.

[Host]

Well, let's talk more. So after this period of conquest, how did they govern, sustain this empire? What was the character of that? Was it very different to what had gone before?

[Marie Favreau]

Yes, it was a very different kind of power. I mean, this was nomadic power. The Mongols would never sedentarize. They will remain nomad and that gives them a lot of mobility, that give them an ability to cross huge rivers which were, you know, very important in the landscape, in the Eurasian landscape. I mean, they will also ask their subject, the chiefs, let's say, of their subject, to come and visit them at their nomadic court. So they would force a sedentary to come to them. Otherwise they will let them also, you know, build up their own trade and communities. So that's a very interesting relationship on the long term. Especially in the case of the western part of the Mongol Empire. We are thinking about the relationship between the Mongols and the Russians. Of course, they were different also because they were certainly more powerful than previous nomadic powers that were in the area before, like the Khazar, for instance, or the Seljuk. So they really developed a huge trade network. Their reach was enormous, like really beyond the traditional frontiers for previous nomadic states or nomadic powers.

[Host]

And you talk about trade. Is it true to say that by. I don't want to use a dodgy parallel, but you know, the Pax Romana, by establishing this trans Eurasian cultural and political space, it became easier to move across that, it became easier to trade through it.

[Marie Favreau]

It's absolutely true. So I like the word actually Mongol exchange, which I use in my book. I show how this is much more what we could call Pax Mongolica, like Pax Omana. It's a much bigger thing. It's like the Colombian exchange. So it's a big moment of globalization, pre modern globalization, but at the same time it goes beyond the frontiers of the Mongol Empire and it will reach Northern Europe as well, which is something I show in my book, the connection with even Germany and the Baltic area as well. They will also develop, you know, Use tools just like agreements with merchants, contract like written tools, which sound a little bit strange for people who don't know that nomads can use writing systems. The Mongol used writing systems. They also used coins, different kind of coinage. They used also weights. They have the complex weight system. They use glossaries to force people to communicate. And they were really, really new. It was really a clever way to attract more merchants on their roads and also even into their own nomadic camp, which became like trade crossroads, really trade centers.

[Host]

You paint an extraordinary picture of those nomadic camps. The expression might conjure up a certain image to people. But tell us what those nomadic camps were like.

[Marie Favreau]

Well, it's a very important part of my work. That's why I kept this title, this word of horde, because we have a vision sometimes that is very negative of a horde. Like, you know, a crazy bunch of people, excited people. In fact, they were extremely organized. A lot of discipline can be seen in these camps. And these camps were not only for armies. They are not military camp. I call them mobile cities. You would find women, children. You would also find administration. You would find craftsmanship. You would find a market as well, and the herds all around. So it's a huge camp. It's more than a camp. It's really a city. And it's something that doesn't exist anymore today. And that I really wanted my readership to get to imagine, to have the picture of it, because that really was the core of my work. That's why I kept this word horde. And I really hope that people will understand now that a horde is a fantastic nomadic regime and it's not a negative social construction.

[Host]

It's very interesting. When I was reading your book, I was thinking maybe it's not as different as we think. Because actually medieval kings in Western Europe were peripatetic. You know, it was Henry iv, I think of France, or Henry II of England, I'm not sure. Eh, Henry, I rule with my sword in my hand and my arse in my saddle. Right. So moving around your empire of your kingdom, this is not such a foreign concept, is it?

[Marie Favreau]

Absolutely. So you're right. The nomads mobility. There are two types of mobility. Let's say one is seasonal. So usually they follow the big river valleys. When it's winter, they go south. When it's summertime, they go north. And then in the midtime they stop to organize a camp and they walk. So there's kind of slow movement, seasonal movement that is kind of predictable too. At the same time, to communicate between all these nomadic camps between all these hordes. They organize what we call the yam system, a very complex posts and supply system that would allow horsemen to cross the whole empire, to jump from a horde to another, to jump from a river valley to another and communicate as quickly as possible when there are important information or I mean, not very quickly when it's just need to cross. For ambassadors or for foreign travelers who want to cross the empire, they would go their own way, their own tempo. So the nomads were really able to combine all these, these mobilities in fact in their empire and that is very specific to them and that is very different from what happened in Western Europe at the same time.

[Dan Snow]

You listen to Dan Snow's history, we're talking about the Mongols all coming up. This episode is sponsored by Rosetta Stone. Christmas gifts can be tricky. You want to get something for friends and loved ones that's meaningful and lasting. I understand. This Christmas, give the gift that truly keeps on giving. A lifetime membership to Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program that truly immerses you in the language you want to learn. I love how easy it is to use. It is on your mobile, it is on your desktop. They've worked out how to make sure that we retain this language long term. They set clear milestones to help you achieve your language goals. So if you need a gift idea or a last minute gift, give your family and friends the gift of language today. Dan Snow's history hit listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit www.rosettastone.com dansnow. That's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life with no shipping fees. Redeem your 50% off at www.rosettastone.com dansnow today for yourself or as a gift that keeps giving.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Marie Favreau]

Sold.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

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[Dan Snow]

I'm Matt Lewis.

[Matt Lewis]

And I'm Dr. Eleanor Yannaga. And in Gone Medieval, we get into the greatest mysteries the gobsmacking details and latest groundbreaking research from the greatest millennium in human history. We're talking Vikings, Normans, kings and Popes.

[Dan Snow]

Who were rarely the best of friends.

[Matt Lewis]

Murder, rebellions and crimes, Crusades. Find out who we really were by subscribing to Gone Medieval from History. Hit on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host]

Okay, I got too excited at the beginning of this interview. We should help our listeners just get some geographical boundaries here. You've got the Yuan dynasty in China, which is descended from the Mongol invaders. What we're talking about is distinct from that. And what stage would the boundary between your Horde and Yuan China begin?

[Marie Favreau]

So it's part of the same empire. We can call it empire, but it's like a big network of Mongol lineage. They are all coming from Genghis Khan, so they have all the same origin. So you have the Yuan rulers in what is China today. You have the Jagataid rulers in Central Asia, in Iran and Azerbaijan, you have the Irhanid rulers. So they are all connected. And in the northwest, you have the Jochid rulers, the rulers who were all coming from the eldest son of Genghis Khan, Jochi, and these were the heads of the Horde. So the main characters of my book, and it's important to understand that even if they have their own organization and forms of autonomies, locally, they still believe they are part of the same world. They still believe they are part of the, what I call the Mongol order. And they have common economic rules, common rules regarding trade, regarding all sorts of exchange. They use same scripts, same coins. So there's this interesting combination of political, local autonomy and belief in being part of the same powerful order, the Mongol order.

[Host]

And was there friction?

[Marie Favreau]

Yeah, there were friction. There were friction, especially in Central Asia. The Horde, in fact, was the descendant of the eldest son of Genghis Khan, were seen very early on as the most balanced, or the wise ones, let's say. And they were really able to sort of playing like diplomacy in between the Mongol families. They were leaders also in that sense. So they didn't try to conquer China, for instance. They really respect each other territories. But at the same time, the descendant of the eldest son had a special voice and the others listened to them, to the Jochids. That's also something, I think, that was new. And what I show in my book, that this leadership comes from the west, the Mongol Empire, and not from the east, in fact.

[Host]

And while we talk about the west, the Mongols won some extraordinary victories in what is now Poland. What is the western frontier or frontier zone of the Horde in the period that you're writing about.

[Marie Favreau]

Yeah, Poland was outside, but it's on the frontier. Poland and what we call Poland Lithuania have had a lot of deep relationship with the Mongols. We know they trade together. They were tension sometimes too. But the frontier really was around what is Bulgaria today? Kiev, Wales, inside, but just on the border. So you see, it's really Central Europe would be the frontier zone. But of course it's not like a frontier like today with nation states. I would say the northwestern frontiers where the steppe stops, in fact, because for the Mongols, the Mongols, they don't want to sit on try. They still want to live in the steppe area. So beyond the steppe area of the Black Sea, then they would stop and they would not go farther away. They were not interested in conquering Constantinople, for instance. They had, you know, good relationship with the Byzantines. They had trade agreements and they would have been able to, but they didn't care because they preferred to stay in the steppe and then communicate with the outside world through, as I said, trade or, you know, all sorts of cultural exchanges.

[Host]

Embassies, you mentioned the postal service. So we've got this imperial, this cultural space stretching from the East Asian coast to modern day Bulgaria, for example. How long might it take to travel or get a message across that zone?

[Marie Favreau]

We know that from if you think about what is. Yeah, Bulgaria or Crimea today, up to the lower Volga Valley, for instance, it took around a month and a half, perhaps two months. And beyond that, it could be much slower. There was a caravanserai route. Actually it's in Kazakhstan today. So in between the lower Volga and Urgench River Organch, which is in Turkmenistan today, this part could take, we think maybe one month or 15 days. And then to go from this area, so Central Asia to China through the land routes, it could be six months. So we have to understand that, although I say that, but we have no idea about the real duration of the trip for really secret postmen, secret messengers, had their own special roads. They would go their own way, they would change horses a lot. And because it was secret, we have no information. And we can imagine that it was even faster. But otherwise we have to imagine that it's a world with a different temple. It's a different way of seeing traveling and distance. Yet the Mongols were among the faster horsemen at that time.

[Host]

Your work is being so highly praised. It's kind of totally reevaluating the way we see these people. Is that because you found new sources? Are you just looking Again, are you just coming with a new eye to existing sources? What's your secret?

[Marie Favreau]

Well, I think it's a mix of all this. It's not that I have new sources, but the way I put all these sources together, I think is new. I looked into written text really produced by the Mongols themselves. So I'm really interested in hearing their voices. I'm also looking at coinage as objects, archaeology. I'm looking at landscape. So I mentioned the river valleys, but honestly, if I'd stayed in archives places and not traveled to see all those places, I would not have even guessed that the rivers were so important when I went there. I went to the Volga valley, I went to the Lower Ural Valley, I went to Crimea, and there's water always everywhere. And this changed my view of this organization and the way they managed to control the landscape by, you know, being so close to the lower river valleys. That's fascinating. And that's something I think was new that was not said before. The other thing is also, of course, there are books on the Mongol empires, very good books, but most of the time they focused on the Ilhanid in the south, so Persia, Azerbaijan or China. And we don't have so many books, especially in English language on the Horde on the north, they were seen as, you know, more primitive. And there were a lot of also Russian books that were not translated into European language. So I think that's where I probably really happy also to share my knowledge of this historiography with wider audience. I show that this part of the Mongol Empire was actually a leading part and that it was obscured because of the historiography, because of political reasons, because of traditional way of writing history. I'm so happy to share this new page of. I started writing, and I guess in.

[Host]

The 19th century in particular, it was just incredibly difficult for Europeans to accept that vast swathes of Europe had for centuries been under the power of Asiatic rulers.

[Marie Favreau]

Absolutely. And all the more that they were nomads. And nomads were like a very negative word which is so different today. And I think that today we are all ready to accept that nomadic way of life can be a very positive way of life because the relationship with nature is very different. We understand today mobility very much is something that rings a bell for many people. Nomads were seen before as, you know, against civilization, against cities. Well, with Mongols, I could demonstrate that they were also city builders. In fact, they were not against sedentary population. They were different. But they were also able, through their imperial organization, to accommodate sedentary communities. So I think it's in that sense, it's a very interesting lesson about how to accommodate different people, people within one single organization.

[Host]

Thank you very much for talking to us.

[Marie Favreau]

Thank you so much.

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