How to Survive a Medieval Crusade

Summary

Episode Summary: "How to Survive a Medieval Crusade"

Dan Snow's History Hit episode titled "How to Survive a Medieval Crusade," released on January 7, 2025, delves into the harrowing realities of the Crusades, exploring the myriad challenges faced by those who embarked on these perilous journeys. Hosted by historian Dan Snow and featuring guest historian Matt Lewis from the podcast Gone Medieval, the episode provides a comprehensive examination of the logistics, dangers, and personal experiences that defined the Crusades.

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1. The Call to Crusade: Pope Urban II’s Sermon

The episode begins with Dan Snow recounting the pivotal moment on November 27, 1095, when Pope Urban II delivered a fervent sermon in Clermont. Addressing a crowd of French nobles and clergymen, Urban II lamented the rampant violence in European society and introduced the concept of the "peace of God." He then shifted the focus to aiding the Greeks in the East against the dominant Muslim powers, framing the Crusades as an "armed pilgrimage" to the Holy Land. As Dan states, "God wills it" (00:55), a rallying cry that ignited the fervor leading to the Crusades.

2. The Perils of the Crusades: A Grim Reality

Dan emphasizes that Crusades were "absurdly dangerous," with survival rates dismally low. He cites the legendary Frederick Barbarossa, who met his demise in a Turkish river, and other noble figures like Raymond of Poitiers and Conrad of Montferrat, who were brutally killed or assassinated (00:55). The dangers extended beyond the battlefield:

• Travel Hazards: The journey to the Holy Land was fraught with peril, including treacherous terrain, extreme weather, and hostile territories.
• Disease and Starvation: Medieval armies were vulnerable to epidemics and struggled with securing consistent food and water supplies.
• Battlefield Dangers: Even powerful leaders were not spared, as exemplified by Roger of Salerno and King Richard I, who faced shipwrecks and imprisonment (00:55, 24:20).

3. The People's Crusade vs. the Prince's Crusade

Matt Lewis provides historical context by distinguishing between the People's Crusade and the more organized Prince's Crusade:

• People's Crusade: Led by Peter the Hermit, this spontaneous movement saw tens of thousands embark without proper organization or resources. They faced immediate hardships, such as starvation and hostile encounters in Hungary, leading to massive casualties before even reaching the Holy Land (09:07, 09:53).
• Prince's Crusade: In contrast, the Prince's Crusade was better funded and led by nobility, though it still suffered high attrition rates. Matt explains that "getting out of Europe is problematic and potentially deadly," highlighting the logistical nightmare of moving large armies through unfamiliar territories (09:53, 15:22).

4. Logistics and Survival Strategies

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the logistical challenges of sustaining a medieval army:

• Food and Supply Lines: Matt details the immense amount of food required, noting that "14 articulated wagons full of bread and grain" were consumed daily (09:07). This reliance on local sourcing often led to inflation and scarcity, forcing Crusaders to continuously seek new supplies.
• Transportation Methods: Early Crusades predominantly used land routes, which posed greater risks. Over time, sea routes became more common, though they introduced their own dangers, such as shipwrecks and piracy (14:56, 15:22).
• Impact on Host Regions: The massive influx of Crusaders strained local resources, leading to tension and sometimes violent confrontations with neighboring communities (07:26).

5. Attrition Rates and Survival Odds

Dan and Matt discuss the staggering loss rates among Crusaders:

• Survival Statistics: Of the estimated 50,000 to 60,000 who set out for the First Crusade, only about 12,000 made it to Jerusalem, translating to an 80% attrition rate (23:17, 24:14).
• Reasons for Death: The primary causes of death included disease, starvation, battles, and harsh environmental conditions. Matt summarizes, "once they actually get to Jerusalem and lay siege to it, the reports tell us that of the 50 to 60,000 people that left Europe, there were about 12,000 people left" (23:17, 24:14).

6. Social Status and Survival

The episode highlights how social status influenced survival rates:

• Wealth and Privilege: Wealthier Crusaders had better access to food and medical care, increasing their chances of survival. In contrast, foot soldiers and ordinary participants faced higher mortality rates due to their inability to afford adequate provisions (26:26, 27:27).
• Medical Provisions: While medieval medicine had its limitations, wealthier individuals could afford physicians and better sanitary conditions, slightly mitigating disease spread. However, the lack of understanding of germ theory meant that camps were often breeding grounds for epidemics (27:39).

7. Captivity and Treatment of Prisoners

The fate of captured Crusaders varied based on their status and the circumstances of their capture:

• Noble Prisoners: Often ransomed, treated with a degree of respect, or held for leverage.
• Soldiers and Templars: Frequently executed or brutally treated, as seen in the aftermath of the Battle of Hattin where Templars were slain by Saladin's forces (36:17, 26:03).
• Reciprocal Cruelties: Both Christian and Muslim captors exhibited severe treatment towards prisoners, reflecting the broader brutality of the era's warfare (36:17).

8. Case Study: The Second Crusade and Royal Strife

The Second Crusade serves as a poignant example of the internal and external turmoil faced by Crusaders:

• Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine: Their expedition was marred by leadership conflicts and personal strife. Matt recounts how accusations of infidelity and military blunders led to both military failures and the eventual dissolution of their marriage (34:38).
• Leadership Challenges: The lack of unified command and strategic disagreements often undermined the Crusaders' efforts, contributing to their high failure rates (34:38).

9. Conclusion: The Grim Realities Behind the Glory

Dan Snow and Matt Lewis conclude by juxtaposing the romanticized vision of the Crusades with the stark, often brutal reality. The Crusades were not only battles between civilizations but also ordeals of logistics, survival, and personal resilience. With only about 20% of Crusaders surviving to reach their goal, the Crusades epitomize one of history's most daunting military endeavors.

10. Additional Insights: Reconstructing Richard III’s Voice

While primarily focused on the Crusades, Matt Lewis shares his involvement in a fascinating historical and technological project: reconstructing the voice of Richard III. Utilizing skeletal analysis and linguistic studies, experts achieved a 90-95% accurate vocal reconstruction, merging history with modern technology to bring a 15th-century monarch back to auditory life (39:03, 41:24).

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Notable Quotes:

• Dan Snow: "The peace of God, he called it." (00:55)
• Matt Lewis: "What the people in the regions are really good at is hiding their food out of the way." (23:22)
• Dan Snow: "Astonishing optimism of young males that they think, well, most of us will die, but it won't be me. Let's get on with it, let's go." (39:00)
• Matt Lewis: "If one in five is coming back, you better believe I'M gonna be that one." (39:03)

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This episode paints a vivid picture of the Crusades' immense challenges, emphasizing that survival required more than just bravery; it demanded logistical acumen, resource management, and an acute understanding of the perilous landscape both physically and politically. For listeners seeking to grasp the true cost and complexity of these historical campaigns, "How to Survive a Medieval Crusade" offers invaluable insights.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

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[Dan Snow]

On November 27, 1095, Pope Urban II delivered a particularly impassioned sermon. Watching him, hanging on his every word, was a large group of French nobles and clergymen in Clermont. In the sermon, he talked about the terrible violence in European society, the necessity of maintaining peace. The peace of God, he called it. And then, perhaps in order to achieve that, he subtly changed tack. He talked about helping the Greeks in the east, that is, the rulers of Constantinople, from the Muslim superpower that dominated what we now call the Middle East. He pointed out those Greeks had been asking for assistance. He pointed out that in the Middle east terrible crimes have been committed against Christians. And then he laid out his solution to all of those ills. A neat solution. A new kind of war. Armed pilgrimage. His nobles and the audience should cease fighting, quarreling amongst themselves, and instead unite and head east to take on the infidel, the Muslim lords of the Near East. He promised anyone who would die that they would die a pilgrim. Their sins would be remitted. They would be rewarded in heaven. The crowd roared back, deus vault. God wills it. And that really was the start of the Crusades, a series of campaigns in which large groups of warriors left Europe, marched or sailed east and tried to re Christianize the Holy Land. Now, some of these Crusades were well funded. Some of them were led by dukes, counts and kings. Others were organized on a wing and a prayer. But all of them really had one thing in common. They were absurdly dangerous. Your chance of getting home were not great. It was dangerous getting there. Even the superhuman, the legendary Frederick Barbarossa, he drowned or somehow died in a river in Turkey on the way to the Holy Land. And he was by no means alone. The terrain, the heat, disease, shortage of food cost the lives of thousands of crusaders before they ever even set eyes on the holy sites. It was dangerous being in the Holy Land. It was dangerous being a foot soldier, because it always is. But it was even dangerous being powerful. In 1119, at the Battle of the Field of Blood, Roger of Salerno had three and a half thousand men around him, killed, hacked down, stamped beneath the feet of the Muslims. And he was among the dead. One of the great lords of the Holy Land, Raymond of Poitiers, he was killed in battle, his head presented to the legendary Muslim commander Saladin. It was dangerous even being away from the front lines. Conrad of Montferrat was killed by assassins just after he'd been elected King of Jerusalem on his way back from the baths. It was also dangerous coming home. English King Richard I, Richard the Lionheart was shipwrecked. And folks, those are the rich people. Some of the accounts of the normal people that we know about are harrowing. In the very early 1200s, a 12 year old Stephen of Cloy, he managed to attract large gangs of youths. He convinced them he's a miracle worker. He convinced them he was touched by the divine. They ended up leading thousands of young people to Marseille, telling them he'd take them to the Holy Land. They survived by begging for food along the route. When they arrived in Marseille, two merchants offered them to take them to the Holy Land and promptly sailed them off to Tunisia and, and sold them into slavery at the same time. Oddly, it must have been a fashion. Another spontaneous kind of bottom up crusade was organized by a shepherd in Germany who led thousands of men across the Alps. Two thirds of them died on that crossing of the Alps. They arrived in Italy where he'd promised that God was going to part the waves and allow him to walk to the Holy Land. God did not part the waves. Nicholas died crossing the Alps on his way home. The big question is, how on earth do you survive a crusade? It's a question I think many of them would like to have known. It's sad for their sake. They kind of listen to this podcast because we're going to answer that question. I've got Matt Lewis on the podcast. He is the host of our sibling podcast Gone Medieval. He is the presenter of our recent program on Richard iii in which experts recreated the voice of Richard using his skeleton, using what we know about linguistics in medieval England to come up with what they think is a pretty accurate version of the voice of Richard iii. It's an amazing documentary. Please go and check it out on history Hit tv. Please go and subscribe to that. But in the Meantime, folks, here is Matt Lewis telling us how to survive a crusade. Useful stuff. T minus 10. Atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima. God save the King.

[Matt Lewis]

No black white unity till there is first some black unity.

[Dan Snow]

Never to go to war with one another again.

[Matt Lewis]

Eight and lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Dan Snow]

Matt, thanks for coming on the podcast, buddy.

[Matt Lewis]

Thank you very much for having me, Dan.

[Dan Snow]

I suppose, you know, we all think of the Crusades and the battles and the politics, but let's just talk initially. I mean, it's a big old journey at the time, I mean, was that something remarks upon was just. Was just the adventure, the journey of just getting to the Holy Land part of the challenge?

[Matt Lewis]

It's definitely part of the big logistical challenge. So going on pilgrimage to the Holy Land has always been something that's important. And, you know, you're talking thousands of miles of travel. So small groups of pilgrims trying to do this have always had their challenges to face to even get to the Holy Land. You know, it's a lot of travel through lands that aren't always entirely friendly. We get to kind of the first Crusade happening, and you're now talking about armed forces of thousands and thousands moving like locusts across Europe, making for the. The Holy Land. It takes on a whole new dimension, I think, just even trying to get to the Holy Land. The logistics of moving those kinds of numbers of people that kind of distance.

[Dan Snow]

Well, okay, let's pick up on the locust thing. Is there a sense that some of the European places in the Way were not particularly grateful for these great swarms of people transiting across their territory, or did they behave themselves and pay for all their food?

[Matt Lewis]

For the most part in Europe, they are keen to pay for their food. They're traveling across Christian lands, so they don't really have an interest in upsetting all of these neighbours at this point. But the logistics do become a massive issue. The best estimates that we have say something like 50 to 60,000 people are traveling, and that's around about 7,000 nights. And then all of their squires, servants, all of those kinds of things. You can add on to that that each knight will have three horses. He'll have the palfrey that he's riding, the comfortable horse to ride. He'll have the war horse that he wants to ride into battle on, and he'll have a pack horse that's carrying all of his stuff. So if there's 7,000 knights, there's 21,000 horses, probably, and all of those have to be fed and watered. There would be A train of carts behind them. Each of those carts has two oxen pulling it. So each of those two oxen is then going to be fed and watered as well. So you have to imagine that these huge forces would be arriving, hoovering up any spare food and access to water in a local area. There must have been kind of inflationary bubbles following them around as they just landed somewhere, bought up any spare food that was going on. It must have driven prices up through the roof. And then they move on to the next kind of town, the next stopping point, and they do the same thing again. They can't really take food with them that won't perish for more than a fortnight. So they can fill up all of their supplies, but they're going to have to keep buying more and more stuff along the way as they go.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah, and that's a key point. Right. Today we are used to logistics. Canned food, frozen food, dried food, you can transport it around the world. You can bring your own food with you somewhere. What we're talking about here really, is local sourcing of supplies. Are we realistically.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we tried to do a bit of maths on this a little while ago. And if each person wants about a kilogram of food, and if each horse wants about nine kilograms worth of food, and then you gotta add in some oxen and things like that, you're talking about 14 articulated wagons worth of food following this army around all of the time that's being consumed every day. So you've gotta refill that volume of food every day. So if you can, you know, 14 articulated wagons full of bread and grain and all of that kind of thing, it must have caused absolute chaos in the places that they visited.

[Dan Snow]

Some Crusades famously, were better funded, I suppose, better organized, you could say, than others. There's a few that are sort of terrifying. The Children's Crusade, which we might come onto. But tell me, what was the People's Crusade like?

[Matt Lewis]

The People's Crusade was utter chaos. So this was. The Pope has preached the First Crusade in kind of 1095. It's taken a little while for the noblemen to gather what they need. There's an issue for the nobility in terms of funding it, but also who's looking after all of your lands while you go, you know, if you've got someone trustworthy who can take care of all that stuff while you're not going to be there for a long while. So we see people like Robert, the Duke of Normandy, the oldest son of William the Conqueror, will mortgage Normandy to his brother, William II of England for 10,000 marks to raise money for the Crusades. So there is a long process for these men to organise themselves and their forces. And in the crusading fervor that's been whipped up by the Pope, you get a lot of ordinary people who think, well, we don't have those issues. We could just all go to the Holy Land right now and get the job done. Isn't this brilliant? We don't have to wait. So you get this guy called Peter the Hermit, who nominates himself as leader of this huge group of people to tens of thousands of people who then decide to plow off across Europe. They make it a fair distance, but then they get to Hungary and they realize they don't actually have any food left. They begin pillaging, they begin trying to steal food and all of that kind of stuff. They fall out with the. The Hungarians, who clearly don't like this there, ends up in a massive battle. And most of the people of the People's Crusade are killed by soldiers in Hungary. So they don't even make it out of Europe in their effort to get to the Holy Land. And they are torn to shreds. And then this causes another problem for what's called the Prince's Crusade that follows them, the noblemen that are behind them, because when they get to Hungary, all of a sudden the Hungarians are like, woo, woo, woo, woo. We've seen this before. You are not welcome. And it takes them weeks to negotiate entry, even into Hungary. So just getting out of Europe is problematic and potentially deadly. You know, people die inside the bounds of Europe trying to go on crusade.

[Dan Snow]

We should finish off the poor old people's Crusade, because then some of them amazing. Managed to get out of Hungary, having committed various atrocities and got in trouble with everyone and pogroms against Jewish people and communities. They did get to Constantinople and then the ruler of Constantinople knew a dodgy thing when he saw it and could have transported them immediately, got them into Asia Minor. Well, some of them made it quite a long way, really, but they didn't last long there.

[Matt Lewis]

No, that's it. You know, I think you can see in Constantinople, the Emperor is kind of, you know, seeing what you've done in Hungary. Just carry on through, carry on through, Carry on through gets them into Asia Minor. And for ordinary people, you know, they're now in a completely foreign climate, unfamiliar landscapes and surroundings, don't really have a clue what they're doing. Lost a lot of their numbers, really struggling for leadership at this point, and anyone that made it that far probably doesn't make it too much further.

[Dan Snow]

The thought that only a couple of thousand people ever made it back to Europe. So, Matt, let's talk about the better funded Crusades now. Even getting across Europe, very challenging. Would they have marched all the way on foot or would they have used the Mediterranean and tried to go by ship?

[Matt Lewis]

So there are lots of potential ways to solve the issue of all of these people moving through the land of Europe. There were different routes that could be taken, so you could split the army up to minimize the impact that they're having on hoovering up all of that food everywhere that they visit. The two main options that you have are the sea route or the land route. So on the first Crusade, lots of people prefer the land route. So they do march across Europe. They can diverge and take slightly different routes to make sure that there's reasonable access to food and things like that. You do get a few who make their way. So Robert, Duke of Normandy, will make his way down through Italy and we'll board a ship there and sail across the Mediterranean.

[Dan Snow]

Poor Robert misses out on the crown of England. When his brother William II dies, I think he's making this journey and in that case, going back from Crusade, it's not just the dangers of the journey, but the opportunities you might be missing out on back home. Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And that's all the issues that the nobles have with what, who's taking care of your lands while you're not there? You know, can you trust someone or are you gonna leave a massive dispute and come back? So Robert had made an arrangement with his brother William II that if either of them died without heirs, they would succeed. So if William II died without an heir, Robert should be King of England. When William is mysteriously shot in a hunting accident in the New Forest, Robert is still on his way back from the Crusades, and it's their little brother Henry who's standing there going, well, this looks like an opportunity. And so if Robert had been on the spot, he would most likely have been King Robert I of England. But the fact that he's gone on Crusade has cost him the crown of England. And, you know, and he will end up fighting his little brother Henry and eventually spend the rest of his life in prison. You know, he'll spend decades as his brother's prisoner. So going on Crusade has cost him an awful lot back at home.

[Dan Snow]

And the journey would cost many even more. It cost them their lives. So we got Robert going by boat from Italy, and that was quite a common route, was it?

[Matt Lewis]

Not so much in the First Crusade. So they preferred the land route in the First Crusade, but as the Crusade crusading goes on. So by the second, third, Fourth Crusades, people are using the sea route an awful lot more. So Richard I of England on the Third Crusade will take ship and go through the Mediterranean. And it becomes a more preferred method of travel as the Crusades go on. But in the First Crusade, it was predominantly travel by land.

[Dan Snow]

And is there a big attrition rate? I mean, do you see, is it like that wonderful map of Napoleon's army entering Russia in 1812? Do you see a huge number of people starting off and quite a small number of people arriving? As people drop by the wayside, it's.

[Matt Lewis]

Not too bad for the Prince's Crusade in Europe. So they get to Constantinople, you know, they converge on Constantinople and there you've got the. The Emperor Alexios, who is the man who has asked for the help. So he's the cause of the Pope preaching the Crusade. Alexios has said, we're struggling, we're about to be overrun, we need some help. So this army arrives and Alexios has imagined that he's going to have control of a bunch of mercenaries who are there to do his bidding. What he actually gets is, is an incredibly motivated army with its own leadership and its own agenda and its own aims, who just kind of want to march through Constantinople and get on with the job at hand. So part of what the army was expecting was lots of support from the Byzantine Empire, from Emperor Alexios, but because he's not quite got what he expected, he's less willing than he might have been to help them out. So they're losing a kind of local ally who they were relying on to back them up with lots of knowledge and lots of extra men and all of that kind of thing. So again, you know, they're marching into different climates, different territories, things that they're not used to. People have been on pilgrimage to the Holy Land, but that's very, very different to going there for a war. Does Western European armour work in a desert hot environment? Can you fight in those kinds of things? Do Western European military cavalry tactics work in the mountains of the Near East? You're going up against a foe at that point. Once you cross the Bosphorus and you get out of Europe, you are fighting a foe who know that landscape, who know how to operate in it, and you very definitely don't. So you see lots of ambushes in the mountains and things like that. So even the journey to try to get anywhere near Jerusalem becomes incredibly dangerous, and people are lost along the way. Again, lots of people don't make it to Jerusalem.

[Dan Snow]

Well, you've mentioned the warfare there. Let's get to the battlefield. If we survive the journey, somehow you've managed to get to the Holy Land. We have this sort of vision of the Crusades, don't we, as being a particularly brutal clash of civilizations. I mean, you've come on the podcast and done a wonderful series with me about the wars of the Roses. Do you think that's true? Was there something particular about the violence? Was no quarter given? Was it a very dangerous theater of war?

[Matt Lewis]

I think it was because it has that religious element to it. You know, you are fighting people who, from the previous year, when the Pope has preached the Crusade, Muslims, have been othered. And from the Muslim point of view, you've suddenly got this Christian army invading what you understand to be your lands, your territory. So you do have a kind of really vicious edge to this. There is no need to give quarter. The Pope has told you that if you go and kill Muslims, you will go to heaven. All of your sins will be forgiven, and you'll go to heaven. So there is a real motivation for the Christian army to seek out and kill as many Muslims as they possibly can. They've been told that they're doing God's work. The counter to that, I guess, is that during this period, pitched battles are still not really a thing. So in Western European Christian military training, they will teach you to avoid battles wherever you can, because they're way too unpredictable. And if you're moving into territory that you don't know very well, that's kind of doubled. So warfare in Europe in this period will rely an awful lot on sieges, siege warfare, and that's what the Western Christians will take to the Holy Land with them. So the First Crusade in particular, is an awful lot about sieges of cities along the way that they will try to capture, and even that, you know, that brings with it its own difficulties and challenges. The biggest problem for an army of this size on campaign in the medieval period is disease. So if you sit outside the walls of a city for weeks and weeks and weeks with a small camp that you need to be able to defend with all of the toilets inside it and all of the sweaty men and everything else that's going on inside the camp, it's kind of a breeding ground for disease. So while you're sitting outside this town trying to starve them to death and deprive them of water and cause them to surrender. You're actually facing all of your own problems as well. And we see a big attrition rate for disease in the camps during the period. So the spiritual leader of the first crusade will die when there's an outbreak of plague in one of the crusader camps during a crusade. Obviously, when they dig a hole to bury him, they find a piece of the true cross in the hole that they dig. As you do. You know you have to find things like that on crusade, don't you?

[Dan Snow]

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[Dan Snow]

So your guess is that you might die of disease than go down fighting in battle against Muslim forces?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, and once they're in foreign territory, in hostile territory as well, the army were then relying on being able to pillage food and things like that, but they find that those supplies are really, really scarce. So what the people in the regions are really good at is hiding their food out of the way. So they simply can't get access to as much food as they thought they would. Water becomes incredibly scarce. You know, they're trying to lay siege to cities without very good reliable water supplies of their own. So while they're trying to starve those inside the city, they're finding themselves hitting real, real problems. And I guess ultimately the measure of the attrition rate comes in the fact that when they actually get to Jerusalem and lay siege to it, the reports tell us that of the 50 to 60,000 people that left Europe, there were about 12,000 people left. So kind of 80% of the army doesn't make it to Jerusalem.

[Dan Snow]

Wow. I suppose some of those would have been left behind to garrison castles that they'd captured. But that is a pretty big attrition rate, isn't it?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, some will have gone home, some have been left behind. So there are noblemen who are Edessa and Tripoli and places like that are being taken and people are trying to claim those they will become the Crusader states. They're trying to build their own little landed areas there, so they're staying behind with garrisons. Some may have been invalided home and things like that. But the bottom line is that 80% of those who left Europe don't get to Jerusalem to lay siege to it.

[Dan Snow]

Crikey. And then that siege was a bloody affair. There were some battles, weren't there? Like Hattin. I've often thought if you offer a time machine, I would specifically not go to the battlefield of Hattin in 1187. An astonishing defeat in horrific conditions for the Crusader army and enormous casualties.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. And somewhere like Hattin, you know, it lays bare the kind of, the arrogance of the. The Christian Crusaders in the Holy Land, I guess, you know, they. Saladin is well aware that he can lure them away, he can mock them and whatever else, lure them away from their water supplies and stuff like that. They traipse out into the middle of the hot desert and it takes away all of their advantage. You know, there's a lot of Templars involved in Hattin. They're considered the, the elite fighting force of the Christian armies at that point. But they're not enough to save the Christians at Hattin. And what Saladin has done is exploit the weaknesses that he can see in the Christians. He. He takes them away from their water sources, away from anything they're familiar with, and then just crushes them completely and utterly. But, yeah, I think it probably exposes a little bit of arrogance on the part of the Christians who think, well, you know, we're here now, we know what we're doing, and they clearly really don't.

[Dan Snow]

And all the Templars, I learned from your podcast, Matt, all the Templars at the end of that battle, all of them captured, lined up and executed by the Islamic commander, Saladin. Yeah.

[Matt Lewis]

And that's kind of as a mark of respect for them almost, because they are viewed as the elite fighting force of the Christian army and the ones that Saladin won't allow to go back and take up arms against him again.

[Dan Snow]

But a lot of the time, as you say, microbes do the job for the Muslims. But is it the seventh Crusade, Louis IX in Egypt? They land in Egypt on the Nile, and they just sit there and are decimated by disease. Terrifying.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. So this is a constant problem for armies in Europe. You know, we see plenty of Western Christian leaders dying of disease in Europe. Henry V will die of dysentery that he contracts on campaign. So disease is kind of a never ending problem for them. And the Ninth Crusade will suffer. They go with the aim of conquering and crushing Egypt and essentially just sit there and wither away.

[Dan Snow]

Does your social status matter? I'm guessing it helps to be richer.

[Matt Lewis]

It does in that you probably have first access to the food and the water and all of that kind of thing. I would say, much like being rich in Europe, being at home, the wealthier will be the first to be better looked after. So if food becomes incredibly expensive because it's scarce, the wealthier you are, the more food you can still afford to buy. And it's those further down the scale, the foot soldiers, the ordinary people, the hangers on around the camp, who are going to suffer first and suffer most.

[Dan Snow]

And is there, I mean, medical provision? I mean, if you did doctors do more harm than good, or do you think there was a bit of wisdom around that would have helped some people take on these diseases and avoid them if they could afford it?

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah, medical provision was pretty good. Again, if you're rich enough to be able to afford to have a doctor and a physician around. So I think medicine was probably in better shape in the medieval period than we often give them credit for. They didn't understand germ theory, which is why you get so many issues with illnesses in camps, but they're not sometimes a million miles away. They understand that having so many men crowded together in dirty conditions isn't great. They're aware that bad smells can lead to illnesses, which isn't a million miles away from understanding germ theory. But you always have to balance that against the practical reality of if you're in a hostile territory, you need to keep your camp as compact as you possibly can, but allow enough room for disease not to spread. It's always a difficult balance and they very often get that balance wrong.

[Dan Snow]

We've talked about fighting there, trying to exist in the Holy Land, but there's all sorts of accounts in the Crusade of the journey back, whether retreating with the tail between the legs or even just getting back. I mean, it's a just as dangerous it is.

[Matt Lewis]

So, I mean, after, particularly the First Crusade, they take Jerusalem. It's pretty horrendous blood running through the streets of Jerusalem. And then for a lot of people on the Christian side of it, they consider then that their pilgrimage is done. They're viewing this as a pilgrimage. They've been sent by the Pope to recapture Jerusalem and then all of their sins will be forgiven and they're guaranteed entry into heaven. So having taken Jerusalem, your job is done and you can now go home. Some people remain in the Holy Land, but we're probably talking hundreds of knights out of those 7,000 that left Europe, if they think they can get a nice piece of land. So there'll be the Count of Edessa, there'll be the Prince of Antioch, who in himself is a really interesting guy. The first Prince of Antioch, Bohemond of Taranto. Then everyone else decides that they want to go home. And you've then got the same problems that you had in getting there in reverse, except that you're now exhausted after a couple of years of fighting and trying to survive and exist in the Holy Land to try and get home. And I mean, the most famous example of problems getting home is Richard the Lionheart of England, who is captured on his way back home and imprisoned and charged kind of two years worth of income for the English crown as a ransom to release himself. So there are potential issues for everybody just to get home again as well. At the end of it, you listen.

[Dan Snow]

To Dan Snow's history. Don't go anywhere. There's more to come.

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[Dan Snow]

We should probably nod to the fact the most famous celebrity couple who went on crusade and the crusade was the breaking of them. You know what they say, travel, it makes or breaks you. It certainly was the breaking of them, partly because of the reasons that talk to me about the King and Queen of France when they went on crusade together.

[Matt Lewis]

So this would be the second crusade. We have Louis VII of France and his wife Eleanor of Aquitaine, which is a name we probably don't need to say any more about. But Louis is quite a funny one in that there's a doubt whether he ever really wanted to go on crusade so much as he just wanted to go on pilgrimage to the Holy Land. He's an incredibly pious and devout man, not much of a soldier. He then thought, well, you know, I'll be the first king to lead a crusade. But then the King of Germany hops on alongside him. So then I think, I think Louis is a little bit like, oh, I wanted to be the only king. So then you've got problems of leadership going on around it and all of that kind of thing. They travel there together. We will get later stories that Eleanor rode with all of her women, bare breasted all of the way to the Holy Land, which is just bizarre and weird and definitely never happened. I'd imagine the wind burn would have been pretty atrocious if you tried anything like that. And then when they get to the Holy Land, we have this famous incident where Eleanor is accused of having an affair with her uncle Raymond, who is Prince of Antioch, one of the the Crusader states there. And this seems to be the result of Louis arriving there, Raymond of Antioch giving him some military advice about good targets, ways to approach this so that they can secure Jerusalem, and Louis ignoring him. And it seems like Eleanor was saying, well, hang on, we've got a guy here on the ground who knows what he's talking about. We should hear him out and listen to his advice. And Louis utterly refuses to pay any attention to Raymond. And then it seems like because Eleanor took the side of her uncle over a husband, the only possible explanation that medieval chroniclers can come up with for this was that they were having an affair together. So we get this random story that Elena was sleeping with her uncle during the Second Crusade. But then they will go on towards Jerusalem. There is an incident when they're crossing over a mountain, they call it Mount Cadmus. And the army gets a bit too strung out and they're attacked by Seljuk Turks who try and ambush them. Louis is almost killed. A couple of his bodyguards are killed during the fighting. And this is blamed on Elena because one of her vassals is the man at the front of the army who's apparently been moving too far forward, strung the army out too much. So it's Eleanor's fault that Louis almost gets killed on the Crusade as well. Just to highlight as well the difference between the higher and the lower fortunes during this. After this incident, Louis decides to take ship and sail down the coast with some of his men and sends the rest of the army to march on. And they end up getting ambushed all the way south. They lose vast numbers just on that march south. And then kind of Louis and Eleanor get off ship and go, oh, that was a lovely journey. How's everybody else? And everybody else is not really very well. And Louis will essentially end up, he gets into Jerusalem, but only as a pilgrimage. So they will spend Easter in Jerusalem, but there's no kind of military victory to this. After Easter they will turn around and go home. Their marriage is looking pretty shaky by this point. There's Talk of them splitting up. The Pope gives them a bed to sleep in and blesses it and tells them if they spend the night in that bed, they'll have a child. And nine months later, they do have a child, but it's a daughter. It's not the son that Louis wants. And that journey seems to have been the real catalyst towards the end of Louis VII and Eleanor of Aquitaine's marriage, which will break up kind of a year or so after they get back to France. So, as you say, you know, travel can put a weight on the relationship as well.

[Dan Snow]

But happily, Eleanor then chooses the much better husband. She marries Henry II of England. And that is the period when we see this vast Plantagenet empire stretching from Ireland all the way down to the Pyrenees.

[Matt Lewis]

And Henry has an interesting crusader connection in that his family, so his granddad has gone off to be king of Jerusalem. And when Jerusalem is beginning to face lots and lots of problems again later on in Henry's life. So towards the third quarter of the 12th century, the patriarch of Jerusalem comes to England to ask Henry. They bring the keys to the city of Jerusalem and ask Henry to go and be the king. It's the time of Baldwin the leper, who's, you know, looking like he's not going to last too long. And essentially, this family connection of Henry to the crown and the fact that he is so devastatingly effective in Europe and such a powerful figure leads the patriarch of Jerusalem to literally go and offer him the crown of Jerusalem. And Henry just kind of says, no, thank you. But then we do see his son and eventual heir, you know, his second son, who will eventually succeed him. Richard kind of really gripped by that crusading fervor that his dad simply didn't seem to have.

[Dan Snow]

Well, unfortunately, they may have. He may have had a bit of fervor, but Richard and his useless brother John went and threw away that wonderful Plantagenet patrimony, that wonderful empire. Anyway, we're digressing a little bit here, I should say. By the way, we mentioned Richard, Henry II's son. He was captured on the way home and he was ransomed. Speaking of captives, if the Muslims captured Crusaders, would they ransom them? If they were wealthy enough, or enslave them, kill them? What was the fate of those who survived disease, survived battle, but then fell into the enemy's hands?

[Matt Lewis]

It varied and slightly depended on who you were. So, as we've seen the Battle of Hattin, the Templars are killed after the battle because they're simply too much of a threat to be allowed to continue. So otherwise noble prisoners might be treated with a bit more respect. They might be ransomed. There's a fair chance that you might well end up executing. And that was reciprocated. So the Christians were diabolical for slaughtering Muslims. You know, Richard I is considered successful on the third Crusade. You know, he arrives at the siege of Acre which has been going on for a couple of years and the city falls within kind of weeks of his arrival. And, and he's viewed as, as driving the victory at Acre and he then marches south. Has all of these military victories appears almost unstoppable. But you, he will end up slaughtering thousands of Muslim prisoners because cities refuse to bow to him. And there's issues around feeding and taking care of that kind of many prisoners. But he will end up, you know, slaughtering prisoners of war on a vast scale outside city walls in acts of cruelty, evil. You know, this is diabolical cruelty to people who consider to be othered from yourself. So I think prisoners on both sides could probably not expect too much mercy if they were captured.

[Dan Snow]

It does make you wonder whether people would have regretted their religious enthusiasm when they set out. I mean, is it possible to just make any estimates about the chance of surviving a crusade? I mean I know every crusade is different and people might want to stay and garrison a fortress, but if something like 20 or 15% of the original number that set out the First Crusade actually arrive at Jerusalem and that was a successful crusade, then can we speculate about some of the others?

[Matt Lewis]

I mean from that point onwards the Second Crusade is a disaster. The third Crusade is kind of a score draw. The Christians don't win, but they reach an arrangement with Saladin and withdraw from the Holy Land. And then the Crusades just start to go more and more wrong after that. So if only 20% of those who left Europe made it to Jerusalem, even if we allow for the fact that some may have been garrisoning towns along the way. So even if we stretch that to say maybe 30 odd percent of the people didn't die by the time the crusade got to Jerusalem and that was a positive successful victory and your odds after that go down, I mean what we can say, you've got a one in five chance if you leave Europe of ever coming back, that says something.

[Dan Snow]

About the astonishing optimism of young males that they think, well, most of us will die, but it won't be me. Let's get on with it, let's go.

[Matt Lewis]

I say if one in five is coming back, you better believe I'M gonna be that one.

[Dan Snow]

Yeah. Astonishing. So more dangerous going on crusade than going over the top at the Battle of the Somme.

[Matt Lewis]

It might well have been. I mean, it's a scary thought, isn't it?

[Dan Snow]

Amazing. Thank you so much, Matt, for coming on the podcast and talking all about it. People can go and listen to more Matt, alongside his brilliant co host, Elena Jarnegger, on the Gone Medieval podcast, where you do a lot of this kind of thing, don't you, Matt?

[Matt Lewis]

We do. So we like to give overviews of medieval topics where we can, but we also like to get really deep into the weeds of it all too. So there is day to day stuff. There is the big battles and the big personalities. There are also the daily life factors of the medieval world. Archaeological finds, new discoveries. We try to cover as much as we can of the greatest millennium in human history.

[Dan Snow]

Oh, well, hang on a second. And also, your recent show was so great on history here, reconstructing Richard III's voice. That got a lot of publicity.

[Matt Lewis]

Yeah. So this was the result. I mean, obviously anyone who listens to Gone Medieval will know that I'm obsessed with Richard iii, but he's almost the kind of side benefit for me of this project. This was a 10 year long project to look at if we've got someone's physical human remains and we've got some material that they wrote during their lifetime, and we've got experts like Professor David Crystal, who can talk about the original pronunciation, the way that words were said in the 15th century. Can we bring all of that together and get as close as we possibly can to hearing the tone, the pitch, the pronunciation of someone who would have spoken more than 500 years ago. And the project believe that they've got sort of 90 to 95% accuracy. You know, when we die, the muscles on our face leave marks on our bones and our skull that will tell you about the strength of facial muscles at the time at which you've died. And they can measure from the jaw and things like that, the space that's inside the mouth, the soft palate and the effect that that would have had on the tone and pitch of your voice. So this has brought together kind of history and science and technology and manuscripts and art. There is a digital facial reconstruction with facial movements and the voice layered over the top of it. It's been an absolutely incredible thing to be involved in and to see all of those different disciplines coming together to give someone back their voice after centuries of silence.

[Dan Snow]

Well done you, Matt. It's such a great project. Thank you for Go and check it out, everyone. It's on the History Hit TV channel. Go and subscribe. It's the world's greatest history channel. You get one documentaries like that every single week of the year. Thanks so much for coming on the show, buddy.

[Matt Lewis]

Thank you very much.

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