Dan Snow's History Hit

Episode: King Herod
Date: December 22, 2025
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Seth Schwartz (Professor of Classical Jewish Civilization, Columbia University)

Episode Overview

In this in-depth episode, Dan Snow is joined by historian Seth Schwartz to probe the turbulent life and complex legacy of King Herod, ruler of Judea at a time of great upheaval in the ancient Mediterranean world. The discussion ranges from the political machinations that brought Herod to power under Roman auspices, to his notorious and blood-soaked reign, his celebrated building projects, problems of legitimacy, and his infamous representation in Christian and Jewish tradition. Along the way, they confront the myths—most notably the biblical tale of the "Massacre of the Innocents"—and the realities of Herod’s rule.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Turbulence in the Levant (02:09–04:19)

• Dan Snow introduces King Herod against the backdrop of first-century BCE struggles between Greek Hellenistic kingdoms, Rome, and the Parthians.
• Judea, formerly managed by the Hasmoneans, is thrust into the center of these empire games.
• Herod emerges from the ranks of Hasmonean retainers and successfully gains Roman backing after Parthian conquest.

2. Herod’s Path to Power & Roman Improvisation (04:36–10:38)

• The Romans, facing instability, appoint Herod as king in 40 BCE, though they do not immediately control the territory he is to rule.
• Seth Schwartz: "They were giving him a task. They were saying, go home to the central southern Levant, conquer what you can and it's yours." (05:43)
• Rome’s approach in the east was “improvisatory”—opting for local strongmen or client kings rather than direct provincial control.

3. Herod’s Family Background and Legitimacy Issues (08:15–11:06)

• Herod is of Idumean (Edomite) descent—a people absorbed into Judaism under Hasmonean rule.
• This ancestry makes him simultaneously an insider and an outsider in Jewish society, affecting his legitimacy.

4. The Roman Empire’s Shifting Control (11:06–13:00)

• The supposed solidification of Roman power after Pompey is actually unstable, especially in the east.
• Herod’s family is originally one among several clients to the ruling Hasmonean dynasty.

5. Herod’s Reconquest of Judea (13:00–16:29)

• With one Roman legion and local troops, Herod retakes substantial parts of Palestine from the Parthian-backed Hasmoneans.
• Notable Moment: The brutal measures taken during the fall of Jerusalem, including measures to restrain his own troops from massacre.
  • "Herod's troops had to be restrained...from committing a great massacre in the city. Now, remember that Herod's troops are Jews, but they're Jews from Galilee and from Idumea." (19:02)

6. Relationship with Rome and Political Balancing (16:29–19:02)

• Herod is deeply dependent on Roman patronage, oscillating between pleasing Mark Antony (and Cleopatra) and later Augustus.
• His rule is marked by constant anxiety over Roman interests and internal dissension.

7. Monumental Ambition: Herod’s Building Projects (24:14–29:00)

• Herod’s most enduring legacy is architectural, especially the expansion of the Temple Mount.
• He builds for multiple constituents: Jewish religious authorities (the Temple), Greeks, Romans, and nomadic groups (temples and public works).
• Dan Snow: "At the same time he's building a huge Jewish temple...he's also building this giant pagan temple there as well. That's extraordinary." (26:42)
• Seth Schwartz: "It looks like it was an attempt to please all constituents. Now we could ask...whether it wasn't a zero sum game." (27:35)

8. Dynastic Marriages and Killing for Power (29:00–32:01)

• Herod takes many wives, sometimes for diplomacy, sometimes for beauty. Most notable is his Hasmonean wife, Mariame, whose family is systematically destroyed.
• Herod’s execution of Mariame, their sons, and other relatives highlights his paranoia and brutality.

9. The "Massacre of the Innocents" and Herod’s Reputation (31:47–33:07)

• The New Testament story of Herod ordering infants murdered is likely legendary.
• Seth Schwartz: "The story has a legendary feeling to it, for sure, but you can see where it came from... It reflects the sense that...he had gone off the rails and that it was increasingly unsafe to be around him." (32:01)

10. After Herod: Romanization and Fragmentation (34:29–38:16)

• Upon Herod’s death, Rome quickly divides his kingdom among his less significant sons.
• A combination of family plots and Roman intervention leads to the direct administration of Judea by Roman prefects—setting the stage for later tensions and rebellion.

11. Herod’s Complex Legacy in Later Tradition (38:16–46:18)

• Herod’s reputation is negative in both Christian and later Jewish traditions. Besides the Massacre of the Innocents, Rabbinic lore includes macabre tales, such as preserving Mariame’s body and necrophilia.
  • Seth Schwartz: "Herod had her corpse preserved in honey, and he used to visit her and sleep with her and engage in necrophilia while she was preserved in honey." (38:33)
• Despite his notoriety, the scope and grandeur of Herod’s temple remain idealized.
• The lasting view of Herod as the last quasi-autonomous Jewish ruler emerges only in the 20th century, not in ancient sources.
  • Seth Schwartz: "Herod did things that no previous Jewish ruler would have ever had the temerity to do...he kind of got away with it." (42:48)

Notable Quotes

• Seth Schwartz on Roman strategy:
  "Things were very improvisatory... They're just doing it on the fly. They're figuring out new arrangements." (06:33)

• Seth Schwartz on Herod's legitimacy:
  "He has an immense problem with legitimacy..." (19:14)

• Dan Snow on the irony of Herod’s memory:
  "It’s sort of a curiosity how Herod is remembered today in the Christian tradition, which is for this... moment that probably didn’t happen when he ordered the death of all the children hoping to kill Jesus..." (38:16)

• Seth Schwartz on Herod’s building projects:
  "He built a massive, very ornate structure... It's not clear whether we can really always attribute strategic thought to Herod. Was Herod doing this in order to please the Jews? Well, I don't know. He might have been doing it to please himself." (24:19)

• Seth Schwartz on Herod’s later reputation:
  "Herod had very bad press...it was deserved. The fact that he was a great institution builder was something that people who lived under his thumb might not necessarily have always thought about too much." (39:13)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Historical Context: 02:09–04:19
• Herod’s Rise with Roman Support: 04:36–10:38
• Family Origins & Legitimacy: 08:15–11:06
• Herod’s Conquest & Army: 13:00–15:39
• Relations with Rome: 16:29–19:02
• Temple Mount and Construction Projects: 24:14–29:00
• Political Marriages and Executions: 29:00–32:01
• Massacre of the Innocents – Myth and Reality: 31:47–33:07
• After Herod – The End of Client Kingship: 34:29–38:16
• Herod’s Place in Tradition and Modern Perception: 38:16–46:18

Memorable Moments

• The tale of Herod’s troops, themselves Jews from Galilee and Idumea, nearly massacring Jerusalem’s inhabitants out of lingering resentment (19:14).
• The recurring, macabre stories of Herod’s relationship with Mariame’s corpse (necrophilia, preserved in honey) illustrating his horrific reputation (38:33).
• The contrast between Herod’s reputation as a villain and his lasting influence through architecture—notably the idealized Herodian Temple in later Jewish memory (39:13–40:51).

Final Thoughts

Dan and Seth’s conversation paints Herod as a cunning yet deeply troubled ruler, often brutal and mistrusted, but extraordinarily ambitious in his bid to satisfy both his Roman patrons and a fractured, skeptical population. The dialogue unpacks the man behind the Christian myth—the product of both legend and hard politics—and provides rich context for understanding his enduring, if infamous, legacy in world history.

Guest’s Book Recommendation:

• The Ancient Jews from Alexander to Muhammad by Seth Schwartz