Knossos

Summary

Dan Snow's History Hit: Knossos

Episode Date: August 24, 2025
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Dr. Steve Kershaw (University of Oxford)
Theme: Exploring the history and myth of Knossos, the legendary center of the Minoan civilization on Crete—where archaeology, myth, and memory intermingle.

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Episode Overview

Dan Snow journeys to Crete, introducing listeners to the evocative landscape and ancient atmosphere that surrounds Knossos. He is joined by Dr. Steve Kershaw, expert in ancient history, to unravel the mysteries of the Minoans, the legendary labyrinth, and the enigmatic archaeological remains. The episode balances storytelling about the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur with current historical and archaeological understanding, while examining the site's later rediscovery and controversial reconstruction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Crete’s Landscape and Timelessness

• Dan Snow paints an immersive picture (02:17–03:08) of Crete: rugged mountains, turquoise seas, and vibrant villages.

• “If paradise exists, folks, well, for me, it probably looks quite like the Georgian dockyard in Portsmouth... But for most people I can imagine, paradise must look and feel something like this. Like Crete.” – Dan Snow (03:08)

• The island’s deep past is palpable: Byzantine chapels, Venetian fortresses, ancient customs.

2. The Myth: Theseus and the Minotaur

• Dan vividly recounts the legend (05:21–10:30), detailing the Athenian tribute, Ariadne, the labyrinth, and Theseus’ victory over the Minotaur.
  • “He stepped out from the crowd of onlookers and offered himself. ‘Send me,’ he told his father. ‘Either I end this, or I end with it.’” – Dan Snow (06:41)
  • Ariadne’s role and the famous ball of thread feature prominently.
  • The sorrowful ending, with King Aegeus mistaking black sails as a sign of failure, gives the Aegean Sea its name.

3. Separating Myth from History—Knossos as the Minoan Center

• Popularity and Structure of the Myth

  • The Minotaur story was everywhere in ancient Greek culture—literature, vase painting, coins (11:30–12:05).
    • “It's one of the fundamental stories of ancient Greece, really.” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (11:30)
  • Unusual that Crete, not a classical ‘great power’, dominates Ancient Greek myth as the 'boss' over Athens.

• Historical Reflections of Power and Empire

  • Myths may contain memories of Crete’s real dominance in the Bronze Age (12:20–14:22).
  • The Minoans possibly exercised the first sea-based empire, connecting Crete to Greece, Egypt, Anatolia, the Near East.
    • “It is possible, I think, it seems that this civilization that's based on Crete was very well connected with all sorts of other cultures...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (14:22)

• Timeline & Context

  • Minoan civilization: c. 1900–1450 BCE, flourishing long before Classical Greece and even the Trojan War (13:06–13:56).
  • Referred to as possibly the “first European civilization” (16:12–17:51).

4. What Made the Minoans Special? – Archaeology and Culture

• Palatial Culture

  • Monumental palaces, advanced civic amenities, drainage, sophisticated water systems, remarkable artwork and ceramics (16:49–17:51).
    • “You have wondrous artworks. You have fabulous ceramic production as well. So... that's architecturally sophisticated, it seems to be politically sophisticated, with great artistic sensibilities as well...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (17:06)
  • Influence extended beyond Crete: widespread cultural expansion into Aegean islands (18:09–19:03).

• Connectivity and Exotic Influence

  • Evidence of connections to Egypt and the Near East: monkeys depicted in frescoes, exotic plants (19:03–19:39).
  • Bronze as a technological enabler—the Minoans did not introduce it but exploited it fully (19:39–20:20).

• Sophisticated Society

  • Centralized palaces likely served political, economic, religious, and social functions (20:28–21:10).
  • Writing: Linear A script, remains undeciphered; Minoans loved "bureaucracy" and lists, but their language and even self-designation remain a mystery (21:10–22:13).
    • “Just about the only word that we can decipher is two syllables that say ‘total’, because you can do the maths on some of these tablets where it's written...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (21:44)

5. Knossos, Bulls, and the Labyrinth

• Bulls in Minoan Culture

  • Bulls were powerful and sacred, closely tied to art, ritual, and probably social hierarchy (25:17–26:18).
    • “In Cretan culture, you find [the bull] again on frescoes. You find it on sculptures as well... almost like some kind of ritual of bull leaping...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (25:43)

• The Palace-Complex at Knossos

  • Complex administrative, religious, and storage structures. Not a classic ‘palace’ with an obvious throne room or king (26:26–28:06).
    • “Knossos... has a great central courtyard, and around it is built a number of storage facilities... There seems to be a combination of administration and religion and perhaps rule...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (26:50)

• Labyrinth Reality?

  • No literal labyrinth found, but the site's multi-storied and complex structure was likely the inspiration (28:06–28:58).
    • “It's quite a complicated structure, and it's built on many layers. It has underground levels... you think, oh, yes, it's gotta be. This is a confused and confusing and labyrinthine kind of structure that perhaps could feed its way into the mythological stories...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (28:10)

6. The Fall of Knossos and the Minoans

• Cultural Shift and Collapse

  • Around 1450 BCE, burial practices, language, and dress change: evidence for Mycenaean infiltration or takeover (29:06–31:21).
    • “So what you see is a culture, cultural change that's quite profound...The administrative language of the island becomes Greek... Something fundamentally changes and the culture shifts from our Minoan one to one that is deeply embedded and linked with the culture of the mainland of Greece.” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (29:06–29:59)

• Thera/Santorini Eruption

  • The volcanic eruption (c. 1625 BCE) was huge but likely not the sole cause of Minoan collapse. Its timing and effects on trade are still debated (33:09–35:01).
    • “...the Santorini eruption would obviously have created major cultural realignments in the region... but as a sort of single smoking gun for the eradication of the Minoans, that's probably too crude a yardstick...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (34:15)

• Mycenaean Use of Knossos

  • After the Minoans, Mycenaeans adapted palace sites like Knossos, which continued for generations before its eventual decline (36:04–36:59).

• Knossos ‘Lost’ and Remembered

  • Knossos lingered in Greek memory and myth but ‘disappeared’ archaeologically for centuries, with sporadic habitation and coins referencing the labyrinth even in later antiquity (37:05–38:18).

7. Rediscovery and Arthur Evans

• Evans and the Excavation

  • Arthur Evans (Ashmolean Museum, Oxford) was drawn by stories of ancient writing and began excavation in 1900, following local discoveries by Minos Kalokairinos (38:18–40:17).
    • Evans' methods were advanced for their time, though later controversial for their extensive use of reconstruction and concrete.
    • His prodigious publishing makes it possible to re-examine his finds (40:27–41:40).
    • “His methods for the time were as good as they could be... He published, and he published scrupulously and on a huge scale.” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (40:27)

• Reconstruction Debate

  • Evans' reconstructions were both imaginative and practical (needed for preservation) but are now seen as partially speculative (41:40–42:39).
    • “There's much of it that's speculative and controversial and unpopular... On the other hand, though, he created a remarkable image of these people that is still very persistent...” – Dr. Steve Kershaw (41:51)

• Ongoing Discoveries

  • Archaeology at Knossos and in Cretan countryside continues, gradually revealing more about Minoan life (42:50–43:19).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the myth-history blur:
  “It is a place where the line between history and myth is blurred. It's difficult to know where one begins and the other ends.”
  — Dan Snow (03:49)

• On the Minoans as Europe’s first civilization:
  “One of the things that's so often been said about the Cretan culture is exactly that, that it is the first European civilization, in a sense.”
  — Dr. Steve Kershaw (16:12)

• Regarding the undeciphered script:
  “Just about the only word that we can decipher is two syllables that say ‘total’...”
  — Dr. Steve Kershaw (21:44)

• About Evans' impact:
  “He created a remarkable image of these people that is still very persistent and is still drawing like a couple of million people to that site every year.”
  — Dr. Steve Kershaw (42:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:17 – Arrival in Crete: setting the scene
• 05:21 – The Theseus and the Minotaur myth narrative
• 11:30 – Dr. Steve Kershaw joins: myth in ancient Greek culture
• 16:12 – Cretan civilization as the “first European civilization”
• 19:49 – The role of bronze in Minoan society
• 21:10 – Linear A script and the mystery of the Minoan language
• 25:34 – The bull’s significance and bull-leaping culture
• 26:26 – Functions and mysteries of Knossos palace
• 29:01 – The end of Knossos & Minoan culture: Mycenaean influence
• 33:09 – The Thera/Santorini eruption and its impact
• 36:04 – Continuity, Mycenaean adaptation, and eventual disappearance
• 38:18 – Arthur Evans: rediscovery and legacy
• 41:51 – Reconstruction controversies at Knossos
• 42:50 – The future of Minoan archaeology

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Tone and Style

The episode is atmospheric and inquisitive, mixing Dan Snow’s evocative travel narrative and engaging storytelling with Dr. Steve Kershaw’s accessible, scholarly insights. The legendary is balanced by the archaeological, myth tested against stone and artifact, always underpinned by a sense of ongoing mystery.

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Final Thoughts

For listeners, this episode is an ideal mix of adventure, myth, and scholarship. It traces how ancient stories shape our perceptions, why Knossos remains a place of fascination, and how the quest to understand the Minoans is very much alive. If Crete wasn't on your bucket list, it may well be now.

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End of episode summary. For further exploration, Dan’s next journey heads to London’s Tower of London—another palace with deep historical resonance.

Transcript

[Dan Snow]

Hello folks. Dan Snow here. I am throwing a party to celebrate.

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10 years of Dan Snow's history.

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I'd love for you to be there. Join me for a very special live recording of the podcast in London in England on 12th September to celebrate the 10 years. You can find out more about it, get tickets with the link in the show notes.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Look forward to seeing you there.

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[Dan Snow]

Is nowhere quite like the island of.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Crete at the height of summer.

[Dan Snow]

As you drive along the long, thin.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Island from its ancient capital, Heraklion, you.

[Dan Snow]

Get rugged mountains rising to the south.

[Co-host or Narrator]

And the shimmering blue Aegean Sea to the north. Its coastline is a shifting ribbon of jagged cliffs and secret coves.

[Dan Snow]

When you roll down the window, you.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Get that warm, dry air, the smell of thyme and sea salt. You see village gardens spilling over with.

[Dan Snow]

Summer colors, pink oleander, bougainvillea everywhere, fruit.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Trees laden with figs. Olive groves spread for miles along the roads. Vineyards, fishing boats bob lazily in inlets and harbours.

[Dan Snow]

If paradise exists, folks.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Well, for me, it probably looks quite like the Georgian dockyard in Portsmouth in England.

[Dan Snow]

But for most people I can imagine.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Paradise must look and feel something like this. Like Crete.

[Dan Snow]

And on that remarkable island, history isn't tucked away in museums. It is everywhere you look. There are Byzantine chapels nestled down cobbled streets. There are Venetian fortresses with their gaze always on the horizon. There are ancient customs and ways of.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Life just being kept alive in villages and hearths and homes. And on the island of Crete lies one of the greatest archaeological sites on earth, which is also one of the most mysterious.

[Dan Snow]

It is a place where the line.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Between history and myth is blurred. It's difficult to know where one begins and the other ends.

[Dan Snow]

I'm talking about Knossos. Once we think the ceremonial and political center of what we call the Minoan.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Civilization for flourished over 3,000 years ago.

[Dan Snow]

Long before what we recognize as classical.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Greece, the Greece of Athens and Sparta.

[Dan Snow]

This was supposedly the home of the.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Minotaur, half man, half bull, a monster said to stalk the corridors of the labyrinth deep below the site, imprisoned by King Minos.

[Dan Snow]

If you're looking to get to the bottom of that myth, well, I've got bad news for you. Because a visit to Knossos can leave.

[Co-host or Narrator]

You with more questions than answers.

[Dan Snow]

Most of what you isn't actually the original palace, but a controversial Reconstruction by the 20th century archaeologist Arthur Evans. So if you have been and you've got those questions or wonder what the real history behind this site might be, then look no further than this episode or listen no further than this episode. Because I'm joined by the University of Oxford's Dr. Steve Kershaw. He is our guide to sort the myth out from the facts as we trace the rise and fall the Minoan civilization, the history of Knossos and its.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Discovery in the late 19th and early 20th century. This is my guide to Knossos.

[Dan Snow]

Enjoy.

[Co-host or Narrator]

The Athenians wore black.

[Dan Snow]

Every ninth year it happened. The gates opened and out marched seven.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Young men and seven young women bound for Crete. The problem was long before Prince Androgeus had died in Athens.

[Dan Snow]

He was the son of King Minos of Crete, the most powerful man in the Greek world. And as retribution for his death, his.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Father demanded these Athenian young as human sacrifices.

[Dan Snow]

They would be fed into a maze buried deep in the bowels of his palace at Knossos.

[Co-host or Narrator]

And they would never return. That is because at the heart of that labyrinth lived the Minotaur, a terrible monster with a man's body And a bull's head. The labyrinth, I should note, was built by Daedalus.

[Dan Snow]

And it was said to be so cunning, anyone who entered it would immediately.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Lose their way and never see sunlight again.

[Dan Snow]

But on one of these occasions, when.

[Co-host or Narrator]

The Athenian handover was taking place, a young man called Theseus decided that enough was enough. He stepped out from the crowd of onlookers and offered himself.

[Dan Snow]

Send me, he told his father. Either I end this or I end with it. A black sailed ship took him across.

[Co-host or Narrator]

The ocean until the outline of Knossos could be seen on the horizon. A palace of bright red pillars and bright frescoes, many of which feature bulls.

[Dan Snow]

It was there when he landed that Ariadne saw him. He had something about him. He looked like he was trying to.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Solve a problem, measuring doors and shadows. He was not marching meekly off to his death. Ariadne was the daughter of King Minos, and she knew what her father was like. He was strict and unbending, brutal. But that night, she pressed a sword in Theseus hand and she gave him a ball of thread.

[Dan Snow]

She told him to tie the string.

[Co-host or Narrator]

At the start of the maze, unfurl it, then defeat the beast with the sword and use the thread to trace the root back to the start. At dawn, Theseus and the others entered the labyrinth. He obviously didn't receive a pat down from the guards because he managed to take his sword with him. Stone closed behind him like a mouth. He stood and listened.

[Dan Snow]

Then he undid the ball of thread.

[Co-host or Narrator]

And tied the loose end to a stalagmite.

[Dan Snow]

The string made a trail.

[Co-host or Narrator]

He turned this way and that, utterly losing himself, but confident that he could find his way home.

[Dan Snow]

As he neared the center of the.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Labyrinth, he smelt the Minotaur. Before he heard was a copper scent of old blood. Then it came at him. The Minotaur charged, horns against his blade. The Minotaur sprang out of the darkness. Again and again Theseus sword attempted to find the soft place between the monster's jaw. Eventually he struck and felt the blade slide home. The Minotaur stumbled and slumped back, defeated, dying. When Theseus hands stopped trembling, he felt.

[Dan Snow]

Around on the floor of the cavern.

[Co-host or Narrator]

For the ball of string. He.

[Dan Snow]

He found it and followed it back to the fresh air, where the doorway.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Opened and the world poured in.

[Dan Snow]

Theseus took Ariadne and the other terrified Athenians, ran to the harbour and boarded their black sailed ship. Lines were cast off, oars churned the.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Water and Crete shrank behind them. For the first time, a tribute ship was returning to Athens. With a full cargo.

[Dan Snow]

They landed. They stopped on Naxos to take on.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Water and draw their breath there. The story takes several different turns, depending on which version you read.

[Dan Snow]

Some say it was there that Theseus.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Abandoned Ariadne, either intentionally or due to circumstances out of his control.

[Dan Snow]

Others say she was taken as a wife by the God Dionysus.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Whatever the case, Theseus returned to Athens without her.

[Dan Snow]

But before he left on his sacrificial.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Voyage, he'd promised the man who seems to have been his father, the King.

[Dan Snow]

Aegeus, that if he was to survive and return home, he would change the ship's sails from black to white so his father, waiting on the shore, would know his son had made it without.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Having to wait for the ship to dock. But in the chaos of victory, Theseus forgot the black sail. Ship approached.

[Dan Snow]

The father stood on the cliff top.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Waiting at the sight of those black sails.

[Dan Snow]

He believed what any father would. Stricken by grief, he raised his arms.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Stepped forward, and fell into the sea. Forever after, people who sailed those waters called it by his name, so his sorrow would never be forgotten. The Aegean.

[Dan Snow]

Steve, great to see you. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Delighted to be on the podcast, Dan. It's good to see you again, too.

[Dan Snow]

It's good to see you again. It's not like last time. We were chatting with each other under the shade of the olive trees of Greece. You were quoting from memory great chunks of the Odyssey, and we were sipping a bit of wine. That was living.

[Co-host or Narrator]

I'll tell you what.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It was living. There's a high standard of living on Crete, be it now or be it back in the Bronze Age with those Minoans.

[Dan Snow]

Speaking of the Bronze Age in Crete, what people will know probably stems from the myth initially, that myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. Was that a popular story? Is that something we've made up? I mean, it was a popular story in ancient Greece. What was it about, do you think?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It was a hugely popular story in ancient Greece. You find it all over the literature, so it's in the poetry and in the prose, and you find it on vases. It's a really popular subject on vase painting and wall painting, and you find the labyrinth as a design on coins from Crete. So it's. This is everywhere. It's one of the fundamental stories of ancient Greece, really.

[Dan Snow]

I was always struck by that myth because Crete doesn't feature very prominently in the sort of great power dynamics of classical Greece. You know, people think about the Persian War, the Peloponnesian War, Crete doesn't feel like a big player, but here we've got a myth where Crete's bossing it and King Minos is telling the mightier Athenians what to do and send hostages and stuff. Does that reflect a reality of that earlier period of the history of the Greek world?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

I think there's always a possibility that myth represents history in some kind of way. If you like myth as damaged. History is quite a popular idea. And certainly you get the feeling that the civilization on Crete that is connected with Minos was powerful. He's credited in the Greek tradition with being the first to have a sea based empire for a start. And in the myth he's being able to exact tribute from the Athenians to feed the Minotaur. So there seems to be some kind of reflection, I think of power within Crete way back in that Bronze Age.

[Dan Snow]

So let's get the period right. So what is roughly speaking, when are we talking, do you think? When did the Greeks think this happened and when do you think it happened?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Well, the Greeks simply located in their mythical past, which it's a bit like once upon a time in a galaxy long, long away and far, far away. The Bronz, the civilization on Crete is coming to prominence around sort of 1900 BC or thereabouts. And it's lasting till in the region of 1450. So you've got a big chunk of that second millennium BC there.

[Dan Snow]

But this is a thousand years before.

[Co-host or Narrator]

The battle of Thermopylae.

[Dan Snow]

So that's pretty long back for the.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Greeks it is a long way back. As I say, it's in their deepest, darkest mythical past. They locate it there. I mean, they think of the Trojan War for instance, as happening around 1200 BC by our calculations. And Minos and the Cretans are older than that.

[Dan Snow]

Wow. Do you think there could be any truth? Is it realistic that in that period we could see the sort of first of these many, many maritime empires that start to dominate the Greek speaking world? A world of little statelets and cities and towns and islands that spread wealth from eventually all the way to Italy and beyond. But at this period, what from what is now Greece up through into almost the Black Sea? Is that a kind of realistic idea, this sort of empire could have formed in this period?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It is possible, I think it seems that this civilization that's based on Crete was very well connected with all sorts of other cultures both to the north of it into the Greek islands and Greece to the east. They have communications with the cultures in the near east and also with Egypt as Well, so there could be little borders, bits of truth here with like sort of mythical remembrances of true activities, which of course get distorted in the telling and thumbs and sometimes can be kind of, if you like, a shorthand for history. But I don't think you could rule that out as ways of interpreting these.

[Dan Snow]

Tales, because Crete, if you look on a map, Crete makes a lot of sense as. As a crucible of. Of an imperial culture, palatial culture, people talk about, don't they? Because as you say, it's got the near east, it's got egyp period. We're looking at the beginning of the New Kingdom in Egypt, when this Minos might have lived. It's possibly even before Tutankhamun. Crete is able to take advantage. It's really on the crossroads of the eastern Mediterranean, isn't is.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It's very well located. It's sort of the southernmost island of, if you like, of the Greek islands. So it's connected northwards into the Greek islands. It's really not that far from the coast of modern Turkey as well. So it has good access into Anatolia and then down those coasts further to the east to Syria and beyond. And then suddenly it's really not that far to Egypt from Crete. So it's located on a. If you like, a perfect cultural crossroads.

[Dan Snow]

So we see this civilization that you've talked about, people say, is it the first European culture, sort of imperial culture, big monumental building, big palaces, quite hierarchical? Is that the first time we spot this in Europe?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

One of the things that's so often been said about the Cretan culture is exactly that, that it is the first European civilization, in a sense. I mean, these days that word civilization is not the coolest one to use, because you're implying that anyone who isn't civilized is uncivilized and that's disrespectful to them. But nevertheless, this is something special and it's something new. This is a formidable and highly advanced civilization that appears at this time and it seems to, in a way, outstrip things that have been going before it in the immediate vicinity.

[Dan Snow]

How is that reflected in the archaeology? How do we know that? How is it sort of different and.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Outstripping other competitors in this space?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yes, it was Arthur Evans, I think, who described Crete as the first European civilization, because what he'd found there on the island was what he thought of as a palatial culture. So you have extraordinary architecture of the highest quality, wonderful civic amenities in many ways. So you have drainage systems and water systems and that kind of thing that can sustain these communities. You have wondrous artworks. You have fabulous ceramic production as well. So you have a culture that's architecturally sophisticated, it seems to be politically sophisticated, with great artistic sensibilities as well, that becomes extremely prosperous and has relationships with the major civilizations around the periphery of it as well at the time.

[Dan Snow]

And then do we see colonies of that civil. We talk about Crete, but you and I have been sacrotiri on the island of Santorini. Thera. Gosh, I'll never forget those artworks showing that maritime sort of homecoming or festival, or is that a Minoan satellite? Is it a colony or there just some cultural harmonization?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It's very much plugged into that Minoan world. I think it's probably wrong to think of the Minoan civilization as being exclusive to Crete because it manifests itself on a wider basis, as you say, to the island of Santorini, where you can see in graphic form on those fantastic frescoes these people seafaring and farming and living and worshiping. And further beyond as well. There are certainly island communities that reflect this kind of civilization throughout the Greek islands, in fact. So this. This Minoan world is. Is one that's very interconnected. I think we should always think about these cultures as being not perhaps specific to one tiny place, to one island of, say, Crete. But the filaments of this civilization are extending throughout the island world of what is now Greece.

[Dan Snow]

And am I right in thinking that means some of those artworks there is suggestion, wasn't there, of palm trees and images of Egypt and the Nile potentially as well? So you're seeing that in the art?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Absolutely. These people are so well connected. There are these images on those frescoes of places that are exotic and flora and fauna that are not native to the region. One of the things that you find on these frescoes is monkeys, for instance, probably vervet monkeys, which are not indigenous to the Aegean. So those are showing you just, I think, how widely connected these people are, that they have access to cultures far, far away from them.

[Dan Snow]

And bronze is important. We talk about the Bronze Age civilization. Is this. Do these people represent the coming of bronze to the Greek world? Do they arrive, or does the metal arrive and is taken up by the locals?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Certainly they exploit it to the maximum, that's for sure. Whether they are the originators of this, I don't know on Crete. But certainly this metal is at the heart of their civilization because it gives them technical facilities to create weaponry, but also farming implements and cooking vessels and what have you. So it. It allows them to live a life that is far more sophisticated than it had been back in, say, the Neolithic age, where you're just using stone.

[Dan Snow]

And you've mentioned a little bit about the sanitation. I mean, it's sophisticated in terms of the way that people are living as well.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Very much so. So residential places are extremely sophisticated. So on Crete, there are these communities or complexes of buildings that are commonly known as palaces, that are really multifunctional spaces. So they're probably for administration and ruling, but also for production and storage of natural resources, and also residential and perhaps for distributing things into the countryside and to the people and collecting them together. Also, though, you have outlying proper city settlements and country houses and farms, all of which have been manifested in the archaeology in the last 150 years or so.

[Dan Snow]

Talking about the Alphabet, there was writing, account keeping, invoices, spreadsheets.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

They loved it. There's nothing the Minoans loved more than a bit of bureaucracy, and they loved making lists. Except that we have a problem that we don't know what their language was, and we haven't been able to decipher it. They wrote principally in a script that's known as linear A, which we can work out is using syllables and pictograms, usually to record lists of things, because there are numbers that we can decipher using a decimal counting system. But what that language is and how we should translate the specific text that we've got is very, very difficult. Just about the only word that we can decipher is two syllables that say total, because you can do the maths on some of these tablets where it's written, and you can add up the various things and it comes to a total. And there's two symbols that say total, but that's about it. So we don't know what language these.

[Dan Snow]

People were talking, and we don't know if there was a king called Minos. Do we know of any individuals or any names?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

We don't have specific names of individuals on any of these documents. What we do have, perhaps, is a clue to their name. We don't know what they called themselves. We call them Minoans, but we don't know what they called themselves. But it looks like other languages that are referring to them. You get keftiu in Egypt, you get kaftor in Hebrew, you get kaptaru in Akkadian, the Babylonian language. So it's likely that these keftiu are known to other cultures, and that's what they call them, but what they call themselves, that we don't Know.

[Dan Snow]

More on Knossos after the break.

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[Anthony Delaney]

Summer is finally here. But for those of you just like me who are counting down the days until the leaves turn golden, the nights start drawing in and it's final acceptable to spend a whole weekend binge watching True crime in your PJs. After dark myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal can transport you there right now, twice.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

A week, every week.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tudor Murder, Ancient Ghosts, Victorian Mysteries. Our podcast has you covered. I'm Maddie Pelling.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I'm Anthony Delaney and we are friends and historians who love to find out about the darker side of history.

[Maddy Pelling]

Join us on the scaffold for Anne Boleyn's final moments. Step inside Tutankhamun's tomb, which is apparently cursed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Watch a jury deliberate the fate of the last three women to be hanged for witchcraft in England.

[Maddy Pelling]

Find us every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. And now on YouTube after Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal is created by the award winning network history hit.

[Dan Snow]

So we've given them a random name. Subsequent generations gave them a mythological king. The only thing that is interesting, isn't it, when we walked around Knossos is there's a lot of bulls. I mean that is a sort of link with some of the iconography of the Minotaur. Was it a culture that seemed to venerate bulls, celebrate that animal very much?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

The bull is a really important animal and it's very prominent in all sorts of different artworks. I mean the bull is a powerful creature and it's associated Very often with fertility and strength and power. But it really seems that there is a great veneration and respect for the bull. In Cretan culture, you find it again on frescoes. You find it on sculptures as well, particularly a number of them where there's a. Almost like some kind of ritual of bull leaping, which is some kind of spectacular sport, which seems to maybe as a way of dominating the animal and bringing it under control. But the bul. Great focal point of much of the imagery that we find on Crete.

[Dan Snow]

Tell me, what do you make of Knossos? What do you make of that extraordinary site that's we identify as loosely as a palace? What do you think might be happening there?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

I think there's probably more to it than palace. It's hard to define what it is, really. There's a space that Arthur Evans thought was perhaps a throne room, but people have now sought to interpret that in different ways as perhaps it's a kind of initiation room or something like that. But Knosset's has a great central courtyard, and around it is built a number of storage facilities, massive storage facilities for grain and wine and olive oil. There are religious aspects of the site. There are lots of things that they call lustral basins that are perhaps used for religious ceremonies. There's a great staircase which seems to have residential accommodation at the bottom of it. So there seems to be a combination of administration and religion and perhaps rule and the collection and distribution of food and other resources as the center of a very active and very thriving community.

[Dan Snow]

Interesting, but not necessarily evidence for a king, a court, a really, really strong hierarchical form of government.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

There doesn't appear to be, at that point, which is slightly odd. You would perhaps expect there to be that. There's nothing there that you can pinpoint that looks like a palatial structure in its own right. Nothing like you would find in Egypt, or perhaps you would find in mainland Greece at a later time. So it seems to have a special flavor of something that's perhaps more communal rather than explicitly hierarchical.

[Dan Snow]

Any labyrinths beneath the ground there?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Oh, there's. The big question, really, is that the whole thing appears quite labyrinthine. It's quite a complicated structure, and it's built on many layers. It has underground levels. So it's one of those things where you see it and you think, oh, yes, it's gotta be. This is a confused and confusing and labyrinthine kind of structure that perhaps could feed its way into the mythological stories of the Minotaur and so on. That's certainly how it was interpreted. Originally, particularly because people wanted so desperately to plug the myth into the architecture that they'd found. I think these days people think of it as being a bit more coherent than that, but it does nevertheless give you these sort of exquisite teasers of labyrinth ness in the way that it's put together.

[Dan Snow]

When does this all come to an end? What do we know about the end.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Of not just Knossos, but of Minoan civilization?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Again, this is one of those million dollar questions, really. But what we see on the island is a change in the culture that happens. Let's say the dates are always argued about, but we see this change in the culture on crete, maybe around 1450 BC, where a number of new things start to happen. So the burial practices change. So you have what they call these warrior graves now, so grave that are filled with weaponry and these sort of boar's tusk helmets and bronze goods in a way that the people have not been burying their dead in the past before. You also get a new language which is utterly crucial. So those Linear A tablets that we can't decipher really are superseded by a script that's known as Linear B, which we now know to be Greek. So the administrative language of the island becomes Greek. So there's a new culture coming in. And we also see actually far afield, that the distinctive dress of the Minoan people on frescoes in Egypt gets painted over with the dress of people from mainland Greece, reflecting kind of changes in the island and the way that people perhaps were dressing. So what you see is a culture, cultural change that's quite profound. What triggers this is argued about. So it could be the arrival of Mycenaeans from mainland Greece in a takeover. On the other hand, it could be, if you like, more of a cultural takeover with the people adopting these customs of the mainland, perhaps at an elite level. But whatever we see is that something fundamentally changes and the culture shifts from our Minoan one to one that is deeply embedded and linked with the culture of the mainland of Greece. So it may be Mycenaeans coming in. And what it certainly is, is Mycenaean culture coming into the island.

[Dan Snow]

More on Knossos after the break.

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[Anthony Delaney]

Summer is finally here. But for those of you just like me who are counting down the days until the leaves turn golden, the nights start drawing in, and it's finally acceptable to spend a whole weekend binge watching true crime in your PJs. After dark myths, Misdeeds and the paranormal can transport you there right now, twice.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

A week, every week.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tudor Murder, Ancient Ghosts, Victorian Mysteries. Our podcast has you covered. I'm Maddy Pelling.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I'm Anthony Delaney. And we are friends and historians who love to find out about the darker side of history.

[Maddy Pelling]

Join us on the scaffold for Anne Boleyn's Final moments. Step inside Tutankhamun's tomb, which is apparently cursed.

[Anthony Delaney]

Watch a jury deliberate the fate of the last three women to be hanged for witchcraft in England.

[Maddy Pelling]

Find us every Monday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. And now on YouTube after Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal is created by the award winning network History Hit.

[Dan Snow]

Previously. People like to look for dramatic causes of sudden downfall, didn't they? And there was the eruption of Thera Santorinia. The middle was blown out of the island, there would have been tsunamis and that was real. But you're just saying that might not have been the absolute existential event for this way of organizing themselves.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

The Santorini eruption must have had a profound effect on life on Crete. The problem that we have with this is that there probably hasn't been a bigger volcanic eruption since that one, and it was immensely powerful. Our problem with this is putting the dates to it. So it seems at this point that the date of the eruption is perhaps at the end of the 17th century BC. So roughly say 1625. So you have quite a big time lapse before the arrival of that Mycenaean culture on the island. So whether the eruption has, if you like, triggered a chain of events that takes a long time to play out is conceivable. On the other hand, it could be that the island recovered. It wasn't perhaps affected in the dramatic and negative way that one might imagine. In a sense, the ashfall on the island was not particularly heavy. For instance, tsunamis certainly did hit the coast, but much of the island culture is on the opposite side of the island. So in a sense the jury is still out on that is that the Santorini eruption would obviously have created major cultural realignments in the region and perhaps realignments of trade routes. But as a sort of single smoking gun for the eradication of the Minoans. That's probably too crude a yardstick, if you like.

[Dan Snow]

Not a great time for Minoan culture, if we can call it that, On Santorini itself, on Thera itself, one of the largest volcanic events in human history, arguably noted as far away as China. So the Akrotiri, certainly. Certainly a bad time to be a citizen there, actually.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Catastrophic time to be a citizen there. Yeah, because there is a fantastic archaeological site that we visited together, which has been buried under meters and meters and meters of volcanic material, preserving the buildings and the frescoes in an absolutely remarkable way. But certainly that community, which would have been, I think, a very thriving trading hub, was completely eradicated. It had links to Crete, it had to the islands, to Anatolia, as far to Syria, to Egypt. All of a sudden, that is immediately taken out of the scene. So there would have to be a major realignment of trading routes and that kind of thing, and the exchange of goods and ideas throughout the region as a result of that eruption, for sure.

[Dan Snow]

So at some stage, the Mycene culture, perhaps Mycene people, are taking over Crete. Do they use Knossos? Do they adapt it at all? Do we see a Mycenaean Knossos? Does it fall into disuse and disappear?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yes, and yes, initially we have this, if you like, Mycenaean or Mycenaeanizing takeover, and Knossos remains in use, and you get a slightly kind of hybrid Minoan Mycenaean culture in the last phases of the palace, which lasts for, again, the archaeologists argue about this maybe a generation, maybe a couple of hundred years, years, until you see the sort of fizzling out of the Mycenaean culture itself as the Bronze Age comes to an end and the Iron Age comes to a start. So certainly the palace at Knossos continues in use after it's taken over by the new culture on the island.

[Dan Snow]

But it does disappear from the sort of historical record, doesn't it, for a while? It's so called, quote, unquote, lost.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yes, it is lost. Knossos itself. It stays there in the consciousness of the Greeks in the literature. So Odysseus talks about it in the Odyssey when he says that out in the wine dark sea there lies a land called Crete, a rich and lovely land, washed by the waves on every side. And there there were 90 cities, including Knossos, where King Minos ruled. So there's a consciousness of it. And in the classical period, there is still a settlement at Knossos that's putting out coins which have little labyrinth motifs on them as well. And there is a Roman takeover of the island, if you like. There's a degree of continuity, but there's kind of a bit of a gap in what is conventionally called the Dark Age of Greece. Don't ever use that term with an archaeologist who's interested in that period.

[Dan Snow]

Thanks for the warning.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

But there is a. If you like, there's a kind of hiatus there and where the use of writing drops out as well, because they don't need the administration anymore. So you lose the writing for a while, but you still have the myth, if you like.

[Dan Snow]

Tell us about Arthur Evans. Who was he and what drew him.

[Co-host or Narrator]

To this part of the world?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yeah. Arthur Evans was the keeper of the Ashbolian Museum in Oxford at the back end of the 19th century and into the early 20th. And he was interested in all sorts of things, but he was particularly interested in ancient writing scripts. And he was kind of pulled into an interest in Crete and Knossos by a Cretan guy whose name was Minos. Actually, his name was Minos Kalachyrenos, who had been excavating and poking about in the region for quite some time. And in, I think it was 1878, he found some very large storage jars on the site that is now Knossos, which nobody was really connecting with the ancient tales up till that point. But he found these and he told various people about them and Evans was particularly interested in them. And there was a kind of a bit of a. A race, a bit of an international race now to try to find the palace at Knossos. And Evans ultimately was the winner in that race. So he'd gone, perhaps seeking a writing system to develop his interest in ancient scripts. But what he found was what he called the first European civilization at Knossos. It was remarkable.

[Dan Snow]

And why did he start digging where he did? There must have been bit of local knowledge around.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

It was exactly that, local knowledge. It was this. Minos Calacarinos had found these storage jars on the site of what is Knossos. And so there was this possibility that they could delve into the culture and find something new. So Evans went and really went all in and it didn't really take him very long, once he'd started excavating, to unearth most of what he called the palace of Minos.

[Dan Snow]

So he begins in 1900. Is it a well organized modern excavation or is it just a massive sort of tomb robbing exercise? Are his records useful to you guys now?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Yeah, I mean, Evans takes a bit of stick, but his methods for the time were as good as they could be. I think he did it with as much credibility as he possibly could. And even though a lot of what he did is controversial, particularly the. What he called the reconstitutions of the buildings where he restored and repaired and perhaps reimagined quite a lot of it, that's controversial and remains so. On the other hand, he published, and he published scrupulously and on a huge scale. He produced a work called the palace of Minos in four mighty volumes, cataloguing his excavations and the finds and so on. So there's a sense in which you can take his work and go back and almost like re excavate it, using his own diaries and records of the site. So, on the one hand, he was at the cutting edge for his day, which now seems very crude, but I think ultimately his heart was in the right place. Although certainly he had his own agendas and he had things that he wanted to achieve in his own right, I think, and his own interpretations and own spin that he wanted to put on what he found.

[Dan Snow]

Well, the interpretations and spin is interesting because he does reconstruct or re erect parts of Knossos. And do modern scholars think those are now pretty accurate or are they figments of his imagination?

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

A bit of both, I think. You know, I mean, he was using other evidence, he was using the remains that he actually found, but also there are illustrations of buildings and little models of buildings that you find throughout the site, so there's evidence that you can use to create an image. And he also had to make sure that the. The whole place wasn't destroyed as well. So they used a lot of concrete, partly try to preserve what they were finding. So there's much of it that's speculative and controversial and unpopular, I think, with modern archaeologists as well. On the other hand, though, he created a remarkable image of these people that is still very persistent and is still drawing like a couple of million people to that site every year.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Extraordinary thing.

[Dan Snow]

And who knows, in the future, further excavations elsewhere, further analysis of language, we may learn a lot more about these people that we call the Minoans.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Absolutely. So, I mean, it's a dynamic area of archeology. They're still excavating in. In remarkable ways. The major sites have largely been done, although they do revisit those. And also there's work being done on now in the countryside to find perhaps the smaller communities, little country houses and farms and what have you, and shrines that are out in the country to give us further information about all those people and the way that they lived and how they interacted with their own environment.

[Dan Snow]

Well, thank you very much coming on the podcast. Steve, that was great. It was fun talking to you. It reminds me of our happy old days together.

[Dr. Steve Kershaw]

Fantastic. Dan. No, it's been a big pleasure. So thank you very much and see you soon. Absolutely.

[Dan Snow]

Well, thanks for listening, folks. If that doesn't make you want to book a trip to Crete, I can give up. I give up. I don't know what Will and our travels together are not over. Join me for the next episode of the podcast as we head to London.

[Co-host or Narrator]

The place of my birth, my hometown.

[Dan Snow]

Where I'll take you behind the scenes. Another palace, one that was built by the conqueror, William the Conqueror. It was only ever breached once by a revolt of peasants. It was also home to a polar bear and the site of the marriage and execution of Anne Boleyn. It is, as you will have guessed.

[Co-host or Narrator]

Already already, the Tower of London.

[Dan Snow]

Don't forget to hit Follow in your podcast player so you don't miss it.

[Co-host or Narrator]

See you next time.

[Maddy Pelling]

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