Dan Snow's History Hit — "Nuremberg: The Trial of Göring" (Nov 17, 2025)
Episode Overview
This episode centers on the Nuremberg trial of Hermann Göring—the highest-ranking surviving Nazi leader after WWII—and the psychological exploration of his character by U.S. Army psychiatrist Douglas Kelley. Host Dan Snow and guest Jack L. High (author of The Nazi and the Psychiatrist) delve into how Göring approached his trial, the nature of his crimes, his relationship with Kelley, and the unsettling realization that those involved in the Holocaust were, in many ways, disturbingly normal.
Main Discussion Points & Insights
Hermann Göring’s Rise and Fall
- Born in 1893, Göring grew up steeped in privilege, with access to the upper echelons of German society and military tradition (06:31).
- Became a decorated fighter ace in WWI, eventually leading the Red Baron’s famed "Flying Circus" squadron.
- After joining the Nazi movement in 1922, Göring quickly rose through the ranks, becoming crucial in Hitler’s rise to power:
- His relationship with Hitler soured due to a string of high-profile military failures, notably the Luftwaffe’s defeat in the Battle of Britain and the disastrous airlift to Stalingrad (10:24).
Surrender and Captivity
- As Berlin fell, Göring sought to surrender to the Americans rather than the Soviets, believing he might negotiate lenient treatment (12:59).
- Famously arrived at the U.S. line with "a lot of luggage and hat boxes full of things to wear and quite a bit of jewelry, rings, things of that sort... thousands of tablets" of pericodine, his addiction (13:55, Jack L. High).
- Housed with other senior Nazis first in Luxembourg, then at Nuremberg's iconic Palace of Justice, chosen for both its facilities and symbolic value (16:32).
The Nuremberg Trials: Groundbreaking Justice
- Trials were a compromise among Allies (Churchill wanted summary executions; Roosevelt and Stalin pushed for trials) (14:48).
- Judges from the U.S., UK, France, and the USSR presided—the first international tribunal to try crimes against humanity on such a scale (17:41).
- The prosecution had only a few months to compile mountains of documentary and testimonial evidence (18:09).
Douglas Kelley: The Psychiatrist’s Quest
- Douglas Kelley’s role was to ensure that defendants were mentally fit to stand trial—an intentionally low bar (21:03).
- Kelley saw his unique position: "he was in the presence of this group of men considered the arch criminals of the 20th century" (21:38, Jack L. High).
- Undertook a broader investigation: was there a "Nazi virus"—a common pathology that explained such widespread evil?
- Employed Rorschach tests, story exercises, IQ tests, and many hours of interviews (25:05).
The Rapport and Unsettling Realizations
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Kelley and Göring, both highly intelligent and ego-driven, established a rapport: "They were both very intelligent men, strongly motivated by powerful egos who rarely thought themselves wrong..." (26:10, Jack L. High).
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Göring was physically unwell but psychologically sharp. Kelley weaned him off narcotics by appealing to his ego.
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Göring painted himself as a patriotic opportunist, not an ideological anti-Semite (28:21).
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Kelley’s chilling conclusion: "he did not find the Nazi virus that he was looking for, and instead came to the conclusion that all of these men fell within the normal range. And this was quite frightening..." (29:54, Jack L. High).
"The true horror of the Nazis is actually these people were reasonably normal and yet were able to preside over this empire of evil."
— Dan Snow (29:29)"It meant that if they were in the normal range, then there were many others like them also in the normal range in our society..."
— Jack L. High (29:54)
Göring’s Performance and Downfall at Trial
- Göring prepared meticulously for the stand, hoping to control the courtroom narrative and justify Nazi actions as patriotism (31:40).
- Initially outmaneuvered the chief prosecutor, but documentary evidence (orders he signed) ultimately destroyed his defense (33:27).
Göring’s Suicide and Legacy
- Sentenced to hang, Göring committed suicide the night before execution using smuggled cyanide (34:59).
- His suicide was a calculated act of defiance, denying the Allies the closure of carrying out his sentence (36:35).
- Kelley, though surprised, recognized the symbolic power: "he was showing his defiance to the Allied authorities and not allowing himself to be executed the way they wanted. He was going out his way." (36:44, Jack L. High).
- Eerie parallel: Kelley later took his own life with cyanide, 12 years later—a convergence that High does not believe was direct imitation, but suggestive of psychological resonance (38:58).
The Broader Lesson: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Crimes
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Kelly detected some common traits among the Nazi leaders: Type A personalities, ambition, lack of empathy, but not psychopathy (40:18).
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The most disturbing lesson: atrocities are enabled not by monsters, but by individuals who fall "within the normal range."
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Accepting this, Kelley argued, forces us to face collective responsibility and vigilance (41:00).
"Nuremberg was a warning as much as a reckoning. ...accountability matters, vigilance matters. Because history isn't shaped by villains hiding in the shadows, but by confident people who sound reasonable enough as they dismantle the world around them."
— Dan Snow (42:57)
Notable Quotes
- On Göring’s Surrender:
"He drove his automobile up to where the American line was, got out, told them who he was, and asked if they would unload his luggage."
— Jack L. High (12:59) - On Nazi Normalcy:
"He did not find the Nazi virus that he was looking for, and instead came to the conclusion that all of these men fell within the normal range...that was quite frightening to Kelly..."
— Jack L. High (29:54) - On the Implications:
"If you call them monsters or deviants, how responsible are they for their actions?...they made choices that are open to many of us to make..."
— Jack L. High (41:00) - On the Enduring Warning:
"The legacy of Nuremberg was never just about one man's punishment. It was about establishing a precedent...the capacity for extraordinary harm doesn’t sit at the fringes of humanity, but uncomfortably close to the center."
— Dan Snow (42:57)
Timestamps for Key Sections
- Göring's Biography & Rise — 06:31 to 10:24
- Collapse of Nazi Leadership & Göring's Surrender — 11:11 to 13:47
- Allied Debates: Trial or Summary Execution — 14:48 to 15:44
- Why Nuremberg? — 16:32
- Building the Prosecution Case — 18:09
- Douglas Kelley’s Background & Role — 19:08 to 21:03
- Kelley’s Psychological Investigation — 21:38 to 25:53
- Psychological Sparring: Kelley vs. Göring — 25:53 to 29:54
- The Normality of Nazi Criminals — 29:29 to 31:33
- Göring's Performance at Trial — 31:33 to 33:27
- The Execution and Suicide — 34:47 to 36:44
- Reflections on Suicide and Legacy — 36:44 to 39:57
- Final Lessons — The Danger of Normal People in Power — 39:57 to 42:53
Conclusion: Lasting Lessons from Nuremberg
Dan Snow and Jack L. High illuminate how both Göring's trial and Kelley’s psychiatric investigation shattered comforting narratives about evil. The Nuremberg trials set a precedent for international justice, but the psychological studies showed that bureaucracy and violence can be engineered by charismatic, "normal" men—opportunists, not monsters. Awareness, robust institutional structures, and continued vigilance are the bulwark against future atrocities.
Further Resources
- Jack L. High’s book: The Nazi and the Psychiatrist
- New film adaptation of High’s book (as recommended by the author) (42:21)
This summary encapsulates the major themes, memorable moments, and key takeaways from "Nuremberg: The Trial of Göring," providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a rich, engaging guide to one of history’s most consequential episodes.