Ryan Reynolds (3:29)

T minus 10 atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Kate Lister (3:33)

God save the King.

Stephen Dorrell (3:34)

No black white unity till there is first some black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And lift off and the shuttle has cleared the tower.

Dan Snow (3:47)

Stephen, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

Stephen Dorrell (3:50)

Nice to be here.

Dan Snow (3:51)

Tell me about his. The political culture that he sprang from as a child in his family. What was the politics he grew up with?

Stephen Dorrell (3:59)

Well, he was part of a landed gentry. I don't think you could class them as being aristocrats. They were much more countrified than that. They weren't people that took part in the city or the town. They were very much in the countryside, in farming community. However, his father was a rake, basically a womanizer, unreliable. And I think he took from him the idea of a man of action. His mother was the most important part in Mosley's life. He very, very close to his mother and she treated him almost well, Freudian terms, really godlike, that he was allowed to get away with almost anything. And it produced a very kind of narcissistic personality, very charming, very polite. The politics were kind of very traditional, beginning of the last century, Tory scholarship, paternalistic. He doesn't really write very much about the servants and all the people that are helping him. They were wealthy, although on the surface it doesn't appear so, but eventually would be left by his grandfather, something. Well, it'd be probably worth about 20 million in today's terms. But I think the most important part of his early life is kind of hunting, fishing, having a good time, really not caring a great deal about the world and politics. Didn't play a big part. There was a degree of antisemitism around, which was fairly traditional in those circles. But there's no real evidence that Mosley himself was anti Semitic in his kind of young life. But I think he just picked up some of those values of being in the countryside. His grandfather was well known locally and even nationally for Bread Campaign, but they were never political figures.

Dan Snow (6:17)

Was this a man who was radicalized by the First World War? I mean, we talk so much, don't we, about veterans on the continent emerging from the First World War? People like Mussolini and Hitler who were radicalized, traumatized and radicalized. Is that how we need to think about Mosley? He served all the way through the war. What happened to him? Do we think that's important?

Stephen Dorrell (6:38)

Yes, the war years are absolutely important. He's very much part of that front generation that became fascists. Who were their ideas, their ideology, views, the world were shaped by the events of the First World War. He was kind of a tradition army person, went to Sandhurst, lots of japes. I don't think he took it very seriously. Joined the Guards, but then wanted action. And he joined the Royal Flying Corps, went to France. Now, he makes a great deal of his time in France in the RAFC, but he was only there, I think, 75 days. But even so, it did have a traumatic effect on him. He saw people killed. He saw pilots killed. There were crashes. And in one instance, when he was training to become a flyer himself, he damaged his leg and nearly lost it. And that had a big effect on him. He had a permanent limp from then on. He was part of that kind of Tory, if you like, fencing, boxing, physical kind of things. And I think he's probably thought, when he went to France, that this was part of all of that. But he left the RFC because of the injury, and he went into the infantry, and he was in the trenches, and he did see some of the big battles, and he saw the destruction of some of the French towns and cities. And it's very clear, and I think we have to take it, that it was true, that this had a big effect on him, and it left him with the idea that you should stop war in all instances, that this is so traumatic that you cannot allow it to happen. And so he came out of the war with a belief that he wanted to see things done, and it was part of that lamb fit for heroes. And, of course, it all became disillusionment because it never happened. And that was what really shaped his politics.

Dan Snow (8:48)

Yes, Stephen, I'd love to dwell on that for a second because I think there's hints of that today in some of the right wing critiques of liberal democracy and mainstream politics. Is that Landfit fear. They come back going, right, we've seen such terrible things that we now have to put aside silly. The silly everyday concerns of these sort of dithering politicians, committees and sort of proper parliamentary screening. We need to do bold things, having sacrificed so much, having cradle our dying friends arms, you know, absolutely, totally legitimate in experience they've been through, in responses to those things, that they sort of start to regard the necessities of humdrum civilians or political, the machinery of that as sort of almost as treacherous as betraying the memory of the enormity of the sacrifice that their generation had been through.

Stephen Dorrell (9:41)

I think that's partly true, but I think that comes later when they themselves become disillusioned. I think they come back with a hope that things can be done. And I think in the case of Moseley, he'd worked in the Ministry of Munitions at the end of the war and he saw that actually you could do things because this was about planning, it was about state intervention, that the state, on a massive scale, they had to, for the war, had intervened in politics, in industry, et cetera. And I think that was also an important influence on him, that he expected post war that you could, for instance, build houses on a kind of industrial scale, that you could resurrect the economy and do that. And initially he was optimistic and there were a group of young tourists, conservatives, and he was very young because he was 21 when he became an MP, who had that faith that it could be done, especially in Lloyd George, who they regarded as some kind of hero because of what he had done with the Ministry of Munitions and with government towards the end of the war, gradually realized that the Tory Party just wasn't going to do that. It wasn't capable of doing that. And he became radicalized and he saw in much like Mussolini, socialism and nationalism, ideas from Joseph Chamberlain of social imperialism, that you could resurrect Britain post war. And that's the kind of way he went.

Dan Snow (11:22)

You might think he'd draw the lesson that many British people drew after World War II from that same kind of state intervention, doing things, building things on vast scale, which is you become a believer, the labor movement, the socialism. But he's sort of culturally such a Tory, in fact, he marries, doesn't he, one of the daughters of one of the great Tories, Lord Curzon Simmy.

Stephen Dorrell (11:44)

Curzon, yes. He joins that kind of aristocratic branch and he takes part fully in that. And he's notorious womanizer. You know, he had that, the stare. He would go into parties and social events and he knew the leading lady, people who ran these parties and you kind of stare at a woman and apparently they fell at his feet. He was a very impressive character, but I think we have to accept there's something genuine in his desire to do something. And of course, he joins the Labour Party because he thinks that's the party, that he's going to achieve something. It's not only the Labour Party joins the ilp, the Independent Labour Party, and he's taken up by the most radical section, which is those around Glasgow and Scotland who are pushing a very radical agenda. And they like him. Perhaps not on a personal level, but they like his ideas. He's interested in ideas and he pursues those. And of course, he takes up Keynes and he is the first real national politician to take up the ideas of intervention in the economy, which puts him at odds with people like Snowden in the Labour Party, who are not going to intervene on the kind of massive scale that Mosley and the ILP want.

Dan Snow (13:16)

So he's married to the daughter of one of the most famous sort of Tory earls in the world. The King and Queen went to his wedding. He's living an aristocratic lifestyle. However, his fellow travelers politically are the more radical, extreme wing of the Labour Party. Believes in intervention, the economy, building homes and things like that. He's also, at this point, well, pacifist, passionately. Anti war is anti war.

Stephen Dorrell (13:46)

He's not a pacifist because he would. He would build up the army, etc, but he would kind of not take part in anything in Europe. So, like today, I don't know what he'd do about Ukraine. Probably he would not be wanting to get involved because he would think it would lead to war. But on top of all this is also that during the period when he was in hospital, during the First World War, when he damaged his leg, he became a great reader and he was into Carlisle, the great men theory of history, that individual men can intervene into history and create events. And he was one of them. I mean, that's not unusual because I think Tony Blair also was into that kind of idea, a number of politicians. So all through this, he does think that he is the one that can achieve greatness and bring in planning, change the economy and do things. And I think that's partly grown out of his upbringing and the way that he was Brought up. It's helped kind of put this idea into his head.

Dan Snow (15:06)

Yeah. Never underestimate the ability of the British public school system to churn out kids who feel they're great men of history.

Stephen Dorrell (15:13)

Absolutely. Although he did rebel against that. I mean, he was into japes and he rebelled and he could have been thrown out a number of times. I mean, he was somebody really without constraints. He kind of felt, I think, that he was entitled to do this, he could get away with it. But he was a complex person, that he did have great charm. Everybody who met him said he was very polite and he listened. But at the same time, I think he was expecting them to kind of, at some stage, kind of a hero worship of himself.

Dan Snow (15:50)

Well, Stephen, I think that sounds perfectly consistent. You know, classic British gentleman listen, very politely, fastidious manners and then absolutely crush you if you have the temerity to disagree or take a different course. So he ends up. He becomes. He goes from the Tory Party, he becomes independent, he becomes a Labour mp. He sits for Smethek whilst he's Labour mp. He says some very rude things about fascism.

Stephen Dorrell (16:17)

He does. Because I think he comes from a very British background, you know, foreigners. These foreign ideas are not something that he's into. And of course, in this period, Mussolini is regarded very highly, like Churchill, you think he is a great man. And Mosley is more into British figures like Joseph Chamberlain, and he's interested in those ideas. And he doesn't really take up many ideas that come from Germany or from Italy. It's very English, his kind of fascism that develops. And it's an interesting mixture. Unlike a lot of British fascists and even on the continent, he does have ideas, he does have theories and he does read and he is interested in ideas. But they are, as you said, they're a melange. They are a strange mixture, which I think he realizes when he gets towards creating British fascism that they don't all fit together and it's problematic.

Dan Snow (17:27)

I think it's really interesting, this debate, like, why does Britain not fall to fascism in the mid 20th century? But I think the British context, really important, right, is that Britain's got the biggest empire in the world. So there are places on the British political spectrum that already exist which are enormously celebrative. Some of the things that fascists in Europe, like national rebirth, national strength and power, well, Britain's got the biggest empire in the world. So there is a domestic British context for Mosley holding the views that he does.

Stephen Dorrell (17:59)

There is. And of course, when he gets to the late 1920s. He realizes that the great hope of the Labour Party for him, that this was the movement that would change things, isn't going to happen, that the Labour Party is kind of on the right of socialism on the left and people like Snowden are too close to treasury orthodoxy and they're not going to make the great changes. So he's becoming disillusioned. There are arguments. I mean, he's not a cabinet minister, he's a junior minister, but he's making all these waves and he's expecting to be heard and he's not, and there's no reason why they should really. But he's becoming round to the idea that you probably need a movement rather than a party, that he's not somebody really for a party discipline. Although he has huge support inside the Labour Party amongst younger members. And there is this idea that maybe he is the future and that possibly he will become in the future, in a decade or whatever, the leader of the Labour Party, but he's not willing to wait around for that. It's all about action now. So he leaves. The Labour Party takes with him some of the socialists on the left and he's moving in many different circles, like Harold Macmillan is interested and there are people on the right and he produces the new movement, the new party, which has elements of fascism, but it's not fully developed.

Dan Snow (19:49)

And is that this new party? Presumably this is coming now from the shattering of the political system as a result of the Great Depression. There are new ideas, there are people questioning allegiances and orthodoxies all over Europe and that's happening in Britain too.

Stephen Dorrell (20:04)

That's true. And there are people in the beginning of the new party who go to Europe and they start to see what's happening in Italy and other places. Initially it is very Italian orientated and they take in the propaganda that Mussolini is putting out about draining the marshes, creating industry and all these kind of things, and they are really enamored with that and they bring that back and they tie that in with various ideas that Moseley has been developing, has. And they develop in some ways one of the first kind of modern parties in that it uses the media and it uses radio and it uses film. And one of the backers is Wed Allen from Northern Ireland, who owns a big poster company and around the country that there's massive posters for the new party and so it's developing a kind of modern movement.

Dan Snow (21:08)

What's the policy platform? Why has he left and feels he has to pursue this new party?

Stephen Dorrell (21:13)

Well, social imperialism as you said, it's developing the empire. There is this massive resource there that Moseley thinks can be exploited even more. Nationalism and elements of Keynes state intervention at this stage, there is no element really of antisemitism. And in fact, there are quite a few Jewish members. Mosley is seen as this young, thrusting, action orientated person who wants to do something and he kind of drags people along with him and they are enthused by him. And you see these big meetings where he can really rouse the crowd. And he is. He's clearly one of the great speakers, you know, he's one of the great half dozen speakers of the 20th century in British politics and he can rouse a crowd. Towards the end of that period, when you get towards 1932, there is a counter reaction against it. Some people are starting to see in it incipient fascism. And you're starting to see some violence at meetings, particularly in Birmingham and other places. And Mosley kind of enjoys it. He kind of throws himself into the crowd and takes part. And I think there's a kind of thrill about all of this. But it all ends in disaster, really, that it's just too late in that the national government is coming in. And in many ways the national government as elements of fascism itself. It's right wing, very nationalistic, and it takes away some of the things from the new party. So when it comes to the election, it doesn't do very well. So they have a retrenchment and they start to talk about what do we do? And out of the discussions in the summer of 1932, when they do send emissaries to Nazi Germany and to Italy, they come back and they have these internal discussions. A small group of acolytes, and they decide on a British fascism. And one element of that which they do discuss is about antisemitism, whether they should take that as a policy. They do. And the reason being is for the most cynical of reasons. Mosely isn't, I don't think personally is antisemitic. He sees antisemitism and he takes the examples he's seen in France of the problem with fascism. It has all these contradictory ideas. On the one hand, it is very modern, but it also is archaic. On the one hand, it is urban, but it's about the countryside. And within this group there are lots of different views. There are very pro Nazi ones. The Nazis are seen as the modern movement and there are others who are Italian supporters who see Mussolini as the way forward and they can't combine them together in a coherent kind of ideology. But Mosi decides that antisemitism is the way that you do. There is an occasion where he meets with some of his backers in the New Party. And there's a. A disputed evening where Sief and other leading Jews are there. And they ask Mosley about what he's doing. And he says to Sif, you know, don't worry, Marcus. It's. It's not about Jews like you, your good Jews. It's about those bad Jews that are creating unemployment and exploiting the British. Those are the only ones we're after, you're okay kind of thing. So it's a kind of very different antisemitism to the Nazis, which is biological. This is a more cynical approach. And there are good and bad Jews. And out of this, in October 1932, the British Union of Fascists formed.

Dan Snow (25:43)

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Dan Snow (29:10)

We should say you mentioned the general election in passing, but 1931 general election, the new party lose all their MPs, including Mosley's seat. And so that's what provokes this sort of back to the drawing board look when you say this cynical. So the antisemitism it's a matter of seeing what they think will stick. What will gain them votes. Is it let's turn up the dial of antisemitism. And in what other ways do they kind of embrace European fascism? Like what other things does he reach for?

Stephen Dorrell (29:37)

Well, I think it's more about antisemitism is the glue that sticks all the different ideas together which everybody within the movement can combine and move forward. But it is very cynical to the extent that they know that this is the plan but they're not going to launch it immediately. There is going to be a buildup to when they do actually launch antisemitism as the policy they want to set in. They Want to create a movement, set up branches, et cetera, build it up, gain the support of some industrialists and backers. And then at the moment, they release it. And they partly know this because of people who've been to Nazi Germany and the Nazis are, and this only becomes apparent perhaps later, three years down the line, are totally obsessed by antisemitism. The support from the Nazis will not come unless it is an antisemitic party. Not only is it an antisemitic party, but it has to be one that is involved in actions against Jews. You have to be dirty down on the street fighting, as it were, for Hitler. Mussolini is not concerned really about antisemitism. And they kind of pass that by when they see Mussolini, they go and see Mussolini, they talk about the industrial policy, they talk about a European fascism, that there will be a network of European fascist parties that Mussolini will kind of put together with Congresses, etc. And this is going to be a movement across Europe because Mussolini is not enamored with Hitler. He wants to be the leading fascist. So initially they go with the Italians and Italy is providing finance, and they send out couriers to Rome who stay there and are financed by Mussolini. And gradually, money starts to come into Mosley, who controls it through various secret banks accounts, at which point MI5 start to get interested. They pick up rumors about this and they start to monitor events, although they know nothing about the links to Nazi Germany. So it starts off and they immediately get support from some financial backers. They have money from Mussolini. And then, of course, Rothermere and his newspapers start to back this new movement of youth. One of the ideas is across Europe that the young are disillusioned, they want action. And fascism is the new young movement.

Dan Snow (32:36)

As well as the antisemitism. Is there a strongman? Is there a protector? Is there? We need to get things done, which we've been hearing a lot, astonishingly, in the last few years as well, in our world, which is this idea that these problems are intractable unless we have someone with the kind of personal energy and charisma to blast things through. Is that something he's developing in the uk?

Stephen Dorrell (33:02)

I think that is a very strong element of why this is fascist, that there is the leader and Mosley is the leader. He is the one and everything centers around him. It's set up as a kind of military organization based on ideas from the First World War, really, when they were in the military and the people around him were all people from the First World. They were all the military or The Royal Flying Corps. And they see it as kind of military operation. And this is the thing that they really take from Hitler and from Mussolini, that it is about the one person. They are very. The people around him are very loyal. Hero worship. And there is a kind of strange spiritual element to all of this. There is talk of, you know, where does fascism go in the end? What's the point? Where is it going to? And they talk in very spiritual terms of, you know, kind of the white light, that there is a kind of paradise at the end of this cult, like in some ways, I think, and they believe in it totally. And there is this core group and he does present an elite within it, as did Mussolini and Hitler. And they are ultra loyal and they are willing to commit acts of violence. And I think they, some of them think this is going to be necessary to break through the logjam, break through the old parties. It's a movement of youth which Rothermere takes up and exploits and pushes in his newspapers.

Dan Snow (34:58)

Where do we get the so called black shirts? Where do we get these paramilitaries that begin to look and feel very much like the units that we see in Italy and particularly Germany in this period?

Stephen Dorrell (35:10)

Well, there is a twin track approach by Moseley. There is the kind of more overt Italian fascism side which the authorities know about. And that is, if you could have such a thing, a kind of respectable fascism. And then underneath this is the more secret side where some people have gone to Germany and they are negotiating with the Germans about support, but it's secret. And this is where the black shirt uniform comes from. That after about 35, the Italian support subsides. Mussolini thinks that Mosley isn't going anywhere, that it's not going to happen, partly I think, because of the success of the national government. And so they lean more towards the Nazis and they seek money from the Nazis. And instead the Nazis will only give money if they have evidence that there is an anti Semitic campaign. And so there is an agenda to start an antisemitic campaign. And Hitler gets more and more interested, although he probably personally doesn't like Moseley that much. But part of that is taken on board more Nazi ideas of being on the street, being engaged in battles, etc. And they take up the uniform and becomes much, much more militarized. By 1936, this is done through his second marriage, Simi has died and as we said, mostly remains a womanizer. And he takes up with Diana Mitford of the Mitford sisters and she is besotted with Mosley and supports him 100% in his politics and what he's doing. And of course, her sister is Unity Mitford, who goes to Germany. And Diana and Unity see Hitler more than any other foreign visitor. Unity, I think, saw him something like 90 times and Diana saw him something like 60 times. And I spoke to Diana, I saw her in Paris and I went to interview her and I said, you know, what was it like being with Hitler like that? And she said, they very rarely talk politics. A lot of gossip about the British aristocracy, what was going on, everyday events. And she liked him a lot. She would often see him by himself. Unity was there sometimes and they built up this relationship. She was also very close to Goebbels. And I had some of the Goebbels diaries translated, because most of the Goebbels diaries have not been translated. They are really fascinating because you see this person on one level is into art, opera, culture at a deep level. And, you know, you see him a couple of hours later in his office talking about how we get rid of the Jews. And she's seen him. And I asked about that and about the funding. She denied it initially, but then I happened to have the documents from Germany and showed. And she just said, so it must be true then. And it was. They were giving substantial amounts to Mosley by end of 1935, 1936. And of course, Diana and Mosley get married on the day after the Battle of Cable street, and Hitler turns up with the rest of the Nazi hierarchy. He gives them their blessing and from then on, it's really a kind of more Nazi British fascist movement than the Italian woman had been.

Dan Snow (39:29)

Yeah, I can't believe Hitler went to his wedding in 1986. But you've mentioned the Battle of Cable street there, which many people will be familiar with the name of it. Anyway, tell me about October 1936. Why did it happen?

Stephen Dorrell (39:41)

There was pressure from the Nazis. If you're going to get funding from us, then show us that you're doing something. Something, because you're not doing anything. In kind of election terms, the support is, you know, they had something like 50,000 supporters. 934 on the back of the Rosemir campaign. In the newspapers, it seemed to be taking off, then it starts to tail down. So Mosley is under pressure to do something and Cable street is part of that. They've been campaigning in that area. Very high concentration of Jewish refugees and they're starting up an anti Semitic campaign. But when it comes to it, it's a case of really that Mosley runs his men up to the top of the hill and then stops. Because, I mean, Cable street is a myth in a way, because there was no battle between the British Union of Fascists and the defenders of Cable Street. The battle was between those defenders and the police. One of the police commanders went to Mosley as he had his troops lined up ready to go in for this battle and said, well, if you do go in, we can't guarantee that we'll be able to protect you, because there are a lot of people there ready for a fight. So Mosley backed down, as he always did, because he was very much law and order and he would not go over a certain line if the police said, he would always say, I'm backing the police on this, the forces. But it's also, I think he was worried. He didn't want to get arrested because next day he was going to Berlin for his marriage and meeting with Hitler. So there is a part of Mosley that does want to jump in. He likes the fight. He's fencer, boxer, all this kind of stuff. But there's also a limit that he is part of a British tradition that is not like the Continentals, that you are going to engage in serious kind of street fighting, which I think Hitler knew was one of the reasons why he never totally backed him. There is an element in Mosley that is fake, that isn't fully committed. It's a bit like the speeches. You know, you can read accounts of people who went to the Earl's Court meetings and things, and they were swept up by the emotion that he could generate, but they came out and they kind of thought, what do we do now? Rhetoric has a certain attraction, but then it kind of dissipates very quickly. And what is the left?

Dan Snow (42:38)

It's so interesting that the Brits in the early 9th century always used to call Napoleon an adventurer, didn't they? That was like a sort of the insult. He's an adventurer. And Hitler certainly was, Mussolini certainly was. But perhaps deep down, you're right, Mosley wasn't. He was actually kind of an establishment figure. Whereas for Hitler, failure meant absolute penury, embarrassment, shame, sort of just nothingness. So he had to keep going. He had to rip everything down. Whereas deep down, perhaps Mosley didn't want to destroy everything.

Stephen Dorrell (43:05)

I think that's true. I think that there is that element of it. I mean, the people around him were. There were the aristocrats, middle class, etc. But there were a lot of kind of ordinary working class people totally committed And I don't think he was willing to kind of sacrifice all he got. Again, you know, Hitler saw that he wanted him to get into the streets. I mean, there are, there are some. There is some correspondence about you really got to get into the streets and it's street fighting and all that kind of thing that is going to move you forward. And that's just not in the British tradition.

Dan Snow (43:51)

And you say there was fighting between the policemen and the people who lived in the neighborhood because initially the policemen tried to protect the rights of Mosley's men to do their march. The right, the freedom of assembly and all that kind of stuff.

Stephen Dorrell (44:02)

Yes, I think, I mean, if it actually had happened and certainly his I corps of the British Union fascists were ready for it and they were going to do it and it would have been very violent. Now, of course, one of the myths of Cable street, which has been around for a long time, but it's very apparent in recent years when people love this, they're starting to recognize that things weren't as we've been told or it seemed. The usual story is that this broke the back of the British Union and fascists, but it's not true because in fact it increased support for the buf. Their support post Cable street went up and people were more attracted to the buf. They got more members, partly, I think, maybe because they didn't engage in the fighting. They thought they were responsible fascists, as it were. And so they'd started then to campaign more in the East End. And that's when some of the worst violence happened and there was the smashing of shop windows and attacks on people. And it became very unsafe to go through the East End if you were Jewish.

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Dan Snow (46:36)

What happens when war is declared? 1939. What's Moseley saying?

Stephen Dorrell (46:42)

Well, from about 1938, that the movement is in decline and they reorganize with the idea that they would come back and they start a much more like local campaigning, creating local branches, ready for maybe an election. And Mosley has made some alliances. I mean, he. He knows the Duke of Windsor and threatened to use his stormtroopers, as it were, during the abdication crisis. And Churchill was involved with that and he made alliances with some of the extreme rights, which involved leading aristocrats and a few MPs who were appeasers. And Moses strategy was to keep Britain out of the war, out of a European war. He was campaigning for that. And of course that had very strong support, poor amongst the British population. The British population did not want to go to war. And, you know, if there had been an election, they would have probably thrown out the parties. So he saw an opportunity, when war came, he saw this as an opportunity that he would be the front person to kind of stop the war. They did put up candidates, they didn't do terribly well, but the campaign was building. There were people like Beaverbrook who was against the war, was prepared to negotiate peace, and there were others within the aristocracy, even within the Royal family, were willing to do this. So there was seen as being some kind of potential. And Mosley also set up a secret part of the buf in case there was war and in case they were interned, there would be a secret organization that would keep the movement going. There were attempts to make links to Germany and Italy to see about if there could be some kind of alliance, because essentially he would allow Germany to do whatever he wanted in Europe as long as Britain was allowed to keep the empire. Which was not unusual because that was actually what Hitler was suggesting to some of the appeasers and some of what was regarded as the Peace Party. Gradually, this was seen as a threat. And of course, In May of 1940, when the British army is losing in Europe and Churchill is in, there is this huge tension within government. And there is this weekend where the records go very thin. They've obviously been weeded. And there is evidence that Churchill has a wobble that maybe we do have to negotiate. And at the same time, Churchill is using the threat of Mosley with Roosevelt over aid from America. And it is in the Record. He says, look, if you don't help us, I could be overthrown and Mosley will be in power and then the Germans will win. And he's used as a threat. So he still has a role. He doesn't have a big movement or whatever, but potentially, because of the German successes, he is suddenly becoming back to the forefront. And so action is taken, which is the interment of the BUF 700, of Mosley himself and Diana, which is a decision that they find difficult because Mosley had been an MP and they really don't like the idea of interning a British mp. And also, Moseley uses the law a lot because they tried to, in turn, half a dozen BUF members in September when war is declared. And he immediately went to court and got them freed. And they think he will do the same and will embarrass the government and they can't. He hasn't really broken any law and they don't have much evidence that he is in contact with Nazi Germany. MI5 have been monitoring the movement and they know about the funding from Italy, they know about some contacts with the Europeans, but they have no evidence at all about any funding from Germany.

Dan Snow (51:35)

But they do take the decision. And he and his wife spend much of the Second World War in Brixton Prison.

Stephen Dorrell (51:42)

They do. They seem to cope quite well. I mean, there was lots of kind of smear stories about him being in luxury and champagne going in and all these kind of things. But in fact, Mosley didn't drink, so it was always wider than mark. And he took the opportunity to read, think. He was already thinking about kind of post period. I mean, Hitler kept Mosley in his back pocket. The possibility of an invasion of Britain was still on the cards into 41, 42. The idea would have been that Moseley would have played a key role. They probably looked to Lloyd George as the person who would be kind of Prime Minister, but Mosley would be an important figure. And they had contact with some of the BUF people who'd gone to Germany at the beginning of the war. At the end of the war, he came out and it was kind of thought that British fascism was over, that was it. Initially, he was a denier of kind of the atrocities, etc. They really couldn't believe in that and he thought that they were made up, etc. I think gradually they came to recognize that it was true. But they had made plans for the revival. I mean, antisemitism during the war was still there and in some ways was even Stronger than it had been pre war. But he wasn't intending to build an organization around antisemitism. He had this idea of Europe, a nation that European countries would come together against Russia, against the United States and they would be made up of sovereign nations in some ways a bit like extreme right Meloni in Italy now. But it was a much more of a crusade. And part of that was you needed a movement to back you, to have some standing in Europe. So he created the Union movement which was really a relatively minor neo fascist grouping of former supporters who again were utterly devoted to him. There were a couple occasions where they kind of may have grown, posed something of a threat, particularly when there was the Jewish terrorism over Palestine and British soldiers were killed. There were riots in Liverpool which they tried to exploit, but it was never any kind of major political force. And his time had gone then and I think he realized that and he created this European crusade. And he would go on fairly well open and secretive meetings to Europe where he would meet neo fascists from Italy, Spain, you know, Otis Skorzeny FORMER SS people and they were creating these international and European wide neo Nazi networks. Quite what that is about, it's hard to ascertain. I mean, I spoke to some of the Mosleyites and they are split between. There were a group of Moseyites, most of them are dead now, but who were willing to talk to me because they wanted to get Mosley's name out, his ideas, etc. And by any means possible. And then there were others, much more secretive. If you were against Mosley, they would not talk to you. They were the keeper of the records. But some of them said that, you know, Mosley would come back and they would have meetings, etc. And then he would disappear off and they had no idea what he was doing. He would never tell them what he was doing. It was all very secretive. And that carried on throughout the 1950s. And he moved initially first to Ireland where he was under surveillance, but much less surveillance than he would be here. He had money which was invested in Switzerland he used for his campaigns, he was wealthy. And then he moved to France where he used to dine with Duke of Windsor. And they would reminisce about the 1930s and Windsor would say he had supported him in the 30s and wished he'd done more to support him. But I think it was, it was a bit of a facade really. I'm not sure that Mosi was up to much. And then of course there is the Nottingill Riots of 1958, which he saw as the opportunity this was. The great man would come back, would step in that immigration was the big problem. And he campaigned hard in Nottingill, but his election result was disastrous. And that was really the end of Mosley as any kind of political figure.

Dan Snow (57:19)

So he campaigned on the platform of reversing Commonwealth immigration into Britain, sending migrants home.

Stephen Dorrell (57:27)

Yes, again, I think it's probably incredibly cynical. He saw that as an election opportunity. I think deep down he just didn't believe in those kind of things. But he would use it to attempt to gain power.

Dan Snow (57:44)

Well, I think cynically using immigration as a way of gaining political powers. Thank goodness that's been consigned to the past.

Stephen Dorrell (57:51)

Yeah.

Dan Snow (57:52)

He was also a Holocaust denier. I mean, we should say he started. I mean, all of the sections since the Second World War. I've just been listening to. Sitting here listening to you, thinking. I'm just very, very glad that in that era people didn't have access to social media, because this all sounds like very fertile, conspiratorial, sort of international networking territory for people to reach out and build networks of unsavory people and ideas.

Stephen Dorrell (58:17)

Yes, I think you're right. And for Mosley, I mean, the problem with British politics in one way is that no third party has ever succeeded because of the electoral system. The New Party attempted to break that through the use of modern media. It was the first political party really, to do that, but even so. And it used it, spent a lot of money on it. It didn't work. He couldn't do it. Of course, in the 1950s, he didn't have that kind of money to. To do. And unless you have huge resources against the two main parties, you're just going to get nowhere. But social media would have undoubtedly helped. So he was spurned, ignored by the major press, etc. And I do know that because I spoke to an MI5 officer who. Whose responsibility was to cover the union movement in the mid-50s. And he went to the meetings and he sat there with Special Branch, we took notes, etc. We listened to him and he said he was still impressive, but he said it didn't add up to much, it wasn't a threat, there was nothing there. He said he went back and he wrote up the reports, put them in the file and they went on the shelf. And that was the last of it, you know, from the mid-50s, he was never regarded as being any kind of threat. There is the strange episode in 1968 of the. Of the Mountbatten alleged coup against the Labour government. And Cecil King is recording his diaries that he's in touch with Mosley and perhaps it's time for the great man to come back. I mean, it's still there, hanging around. But that really wasn't going to happen now. His ideas also didn't really resonate very much. You know, the British fascists that came up, the British National Party, the 60s, the National Front of the 70s, tried to get away from Mosley. They regarded him as being the old man and old ideas. So he didn't resonate there. And in Europe, fascism had new kind of people to take on Nietzsche and Evola and others, and Mosley wasn't. His ideas were thought to be a bit old fashioned. They were much more psychological and spiritual in a way. The ideas that had been taken up in Europe and his were much more practical planning, economic kind of ideas. I mean, it's interesting now to look at them and they were never really taken up, except some were taken up by the Labour Party in 1945. The idea of planning and state intervention, but not quite on the scale that he thought of. And you know, fascism now on the extreme right have a lack of ideas. They don't really have any kind of ideology or any idea about what to do about the situation other than news, immigration and apathy and disgust with the system and things. So his ideas have really kind of disappeared.

Dan Snow (61:52)

Interesting. Thank you so much indeed for coming on the podcast. Talk all about it. So much food for thought in there. Do tell us what your book is called.

Stephen Dorrell (62:02)

Black Shirt, Oswald Mosley and British Fascism.

Dan Snow (62:06)

Well, thank you very much indeed for coming on the podcast to talk about it.

Stephen Dorrell (62:10)

Okay, thanks.

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