The Assassination of JFK

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dan Snow's History Hit

Episode: The Assassination of JFK
Date: November 27, 2025
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Jefferson Morley (author and veteran journalist)

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Overview of the Episode

This episode delves into the events of November 22, 1963, when President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. Dan Snow provides a detailed chronological account of that day and explores the broader historical, political, and social context with Jefferson Morley, one of the leading authorities on the JFK assassination. The conversation examines not only the incident itself but also the subsequent investigations, controversies, and persistent questions that have kept this moment at the center of American historical debate.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: America in 1963

• JFK's Presidency:
  • Kennedy as the first Catholic President, young and charismatic, symbolizing the 'New Generation' of post-war America.
  • The U.S. as a technological and global superpower, entering a new era of opportunity and tension.
  • Quote: "He seemed like a new president from a new generation for a new era of history." (Dan Snow, 01:36)
• Political Climate:
  • Preparing for re-election, traversing the country to test campaign messages on subjects like conservation and national security.
  • Heightened tensions—civil rights movement, Cold War fears, and political violence.

2. The Day of the Assassination (Timeline)

• Morning:
  • Lee Harvey Oswald arrives at work at the Texas Book Depository, carrying a long package (claimed to be curtain rods) (05:09).
  • Kennedy starts his day in Fort Worth, later flying to Dallas.
  • Infamous newspaper ad accusing JFK of treason catches his eye.
• Motorcade and Attack:
  • JFK, alongside his wife Jacqueline, Texas Governor John Connally, and his wife, joins the Dallas motorcade in an open-top limousine (06:45).
  • Oswald seen eating lunch on Book Depository’s first floor as the motorcade departs.
  • Crowds of 150,000 watch as the motorcade winds through Dallas (06:58).
• The Shooting (12:29-12:30 PM):
  • First shot: Misses; bystander James Torg wounded by debris (08:09).
  • Second shot: Hits JFK in the back; induces neurological trauma (08:31).
  • Third shot: Fatal head wound to JFK, injures Governor Connally as well (08:46).
  • Jackie climbs onto the back of the limousine in shock, later stating:
    • Quote: "They've killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand." (Dan Snow, 09:03)

3. Immediate Aftermath and Arrest of Oswald

• Race to Hospital:
  • Secret Service speeds to Parkland Hospital; JFK taken to Trauma Room 1, Connally to Trauma Room 2 (09:52).
  • Dr. Robert McClellan, among attending physicians, realizes instantly the wound is non-survivable (10:15).
  • Press coverage begins almost immediately; veteran reporter Merriman Smith breaks the story nationally (09:52).
  • JFK pronounced dead around 1:00 PM; announcement rocks the nation (10:34).
• Oswald’s Arrest:
  • Oswald apprehended in the Texas Theater within 90 minutes of the assassination (11:48).
  • He repeatedly denies guilt:
    • Quote: "I'm a patsy, I'm a patsy." (Jefferson Morley, 11:48)
• Oswald's Killing:
  • On live television, Jack Ruby shoots Oswald as he is transferred to another jail (12:20).
  • Morley summarizes the surreality:
    • Quote: "So you have the astonishing assassination of The President followed 36 hours later by the assassination on live television of the supposed assassin. So a completely surreal set of events." (Jefferson Morley, 12:45)

4. Official Response and the Warren Commission

• Establishing the Narrative:
  • Immediate determination by LBJ and J. Edgar Hoover to promote the idea that Oswald acted alone (13:08).
  • FBI investigation concludes ‘lone gunman’ theory before any real evidence is thoroughly reviewed.
• Formation and Findings of Warren Commission:
  • Led by Chief Justice Earl Warren, included former CIA director Allen Dulles.
  • Investigation takes up the ‘lone gunman’ narrative, dismisses wider conspiracy.
  • The CIA’s awareness of Oswald’s defection and ties was downplayed and hidden from the investigation (15:20).
  • Morley’s Critique:
    • Quote: "The Warren Commission came to the same conclusion that President Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover wanted. That this one man acted alone for no discernible reason. And this was the real problem with the Warren Commission Report and with the whole official story." (Jefferson Morley, 15:20)

5. Persistent Doubts & Alternative Theories

• Public Reaction:
  • Immediate skepticism from the American public:
    • "Already 2/3 of people who responded to two polls in November 1963 said more than one person was involved." (Jefferson Morley, 19:08)
  • The tangled events—Oswald's murder, lack of clear motive, CIA secrecy—fueled “conspiracy theories.”
• Why the Persistent Theories?
  • Morley attributes suspicion to the bizarre, rapid sequence and official handling, not “conspiracy theorists.” (19:08)

6. Kennedy’s Presidency and Enemies

• Charisma, Popularity, and Policies:
  • Kennedy as a modern, liberal but not left-wing president, with strong poll numbers (20:10).
  • Refused to support CIA’s efforts to oust Castro—caused enmity in the intelligence/military community.
• Cuba Crisis and Cold War:
  • Stressed Kennedy's careful, diplomatic approach during the Cuban Missile Crisis (21:50), pursuing de-escalation.
  • Attempted to wind down Cold War and sought partial nuclear test ban.
  • Period marked by extreme political violence (e.g., assassinations of civil rights leaders).
  • Notable Quote: "Kennedy is living in a dangerous time, a time of political violence and he's also made some enemies in the national security community." (Jefferson Morley, 25:14)
• Johnson’s Private Doubts:
  • "President Johnson himself appointed the Warren Commission, publicly endorsed its lone gunman finding. Privately, he never believed it." (Jefferson Morley, 25:46)

7. Unanswered Questions & Declassified Files

• Morley’s Investigations:
  • Sixteen-year legal battle with the CIA for records.
  • Release of thousands of documents after Oliver Stone’s "JFK" film prompted public pressure for transparency (26:14).
  • Revelations that the CIA had closely tracked Oswald for years—contradicts the ‘lone nut’ narrative.
• Operation Northwoods:
  • Pentagon/CIA plan to stage false flag attacks and blame Cuba—publicized in 1997. (27:10)
  • Morley suggests the JFK assassination followed similar patterns: immediate efforts to blame Cuba.
• Modern Releases:
  • Recent releases (2021-2025) confirm deep intelligence interest in Oswald but no “smoking gun.”
  • "What they do is give a bit of extra context and shed more light into the CIA's prior knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald. It confirms that they were surveilling him prior to the assassination, which perhaps in itself does raise even more questions." (Dan Snow, 30:21)

8. The Continuing Mystery

• Morley’s Conclusion:
  • "The official story that this guy came out of nowhere and shot the President. That's false. He didn't come out of nowhere. He was watched by the CIA for four years. They watched him right into Dallas. So what's the explanation for that? We still don't have a good explanation. That's where things stand today." (Jefferson Morley, 30:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Snow: "Anyone who was alive at the time seems to remember with great clarity where they were when they heard that John F. Kennedy...had been shot dead in Dallas. It's one of those extraordinary waypoints in US 20th century history." (01:36)
• Jefferson Morley: “He said, I didn't shoot anybody. He said it repeatedly and he said, I'm a patsy, I'm a patsy. Meaning he's the fall guy for somebody else.” (11:48)
• Jefferson Morley: “The country's in shock. That next day, Vice President Johnson is sworn in as President...And as Oswald is brought out, a man steps out of the crowd and shoots him and kills him.” (12:20)
• Jefferson Morley: “The Warren Commission came to the same conclusion that President Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover wanted. That this one man acted alone for no discernible reason. And this was the real problem with the Warren Commission Report and with the whole official story.” (15:20)
• Jefferson Morley: “The set of circumstances was surreal. And the fears of conspiracy were created by those circumstances. Not, I might add, by conspiracy theorists.” (19:08)
• Jefferson Morley: "[Kennedy] was also made some enemies in the national security community.” (25:14)
• Dan Snow: "It does seem as though these new documents...shed more light into the CIA's prior knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald. It confirms that they were surveilling him prior to the assassination, which perhaps in itself does raise even more questions." (30:21)
• Jefferson Morley: "The official story that this guy came out of nowhere and shot the President. That's false...” (30:35)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:36 – Dan Snow sets the context: Why JFK's assassination is a pivotal historical moment.
• 05:09 – Description of Oswald’s background and JFK’s morning in Dallas.
• 06:45-08:03 – Motorcade begins, Oswald’s movements, crowds gather.
• 08:09-08:54 – Shots fired in Dealey Plaza, real-time reactions.
• 09:03 – Reactions from Jacqueline Kennedy and Dallas officials.
• 09:44-11:48 – Jefferson Morley details the aftermath, Parkland Hospital, Oswald’s arrest.
• 12:20 – The killing of Oswald by Jack Ruby.
• 13:08-15:20 – The crafting of the “lone gunman” narrative and the Warren Commission.
• 19:08-20:05 – Morley discusses why conspiracy theories took root so quickly.
• 20:10-25:14 – Exploration of Kennedy’s policies, Cold War, and enemies created.
• 26:14 – Morley discusses his investigations, Operation Northwoods, and recent declassifications.
• 30:21 – Dan Snow summarizes what the new documents reveal—and what they don’t.
• 30:35 – Morley's concluding remarks about lingering unanswered questions.

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Tone & Style

The discussion combines Dan Snow’s accessible, vivid storytelling with Jefferson Morley’s investigative, skeptical insights. The narrative flows swiftly between the chronological recounting of events, personal anecdotes, and critical analysis, maintaining a sense of urgency and unresolved intrigue befitting the subject matter.

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Summary

This episode of Dan Snow’s History Hit provides both a detailed, step-by-step reconstruction of JFK’s assassination and a probing analysis of why so many questions still surround the event, even after decades of official investigations and document releases. Morley’s expertise offers a critical perspective on the “lone gunman” theory and highlights the ongoing relevance of newly declassified documents, ensuring the JFK story remains a living—and deeply unresolved—chapter in American history.

Transcript

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[Dan Snow]

Hi folks, this is an episode we released a few years back. I did have my braces on at the time, so I sound a bit different. I was having some important dental surgery at the time, but it is one of our favorite episodes, so bear with me. And this is the end of the JFK story that we've been exploring on the show this week. So if you're a longtime listener it is a refresher. You might have heard it before, but it's worth a re listen, so enjoy. Hi everybody. Welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Anyone who was alive at the time seems to remember with great clarity where they were when they heard that John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, had been shot dead in Dallas. It's one of those extraordinary waypoints in US 20th century history. He'd been elected in late 1916, a very close run election. He was young, he was charismatic. He was the first Catholic President of the United States. He seemed to embody the idealism of a new generation of Americans. Americans that had grown up following the First World War, had served often during the Second World War and had lived through one of the most extraordinary revolutions in household prosperity in the history of the world. America had launched itself into a position of global hegemony, extraordinary superpower status, backed up by revolutionary technology, not least the nuclear technology, but also things like ballistic rockets that would see humans reach the moon within a decade. Also the beginnings of a computing revolution. He seemed like a new president from a new generation for a new era of history. On 22 November 1963, he was shot dead. In this episode I'm taking you through a step by step account of the assassination. I'm also going to be interviewing Jefferson Morley. He's a Washington based author and veteran journalist. He's one of the most knowledgeable authorities on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. So it's a hybrid, it's a mixture of one of my explainers with an interview with a bit of a legend. Let's hear from Jefferson Morley and me as we take you through one of the most famous days in history.

[Narrator/Reporter]

T minus 10 atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima. God save the King. No black white unity till there is first some black unity. Never to go to war with one another again. And liftoff. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[Dan Snow]

It's the autumn of 1963. JFK, John Fitzgerald Kennedy and his advisors were preparing for the next presidential campaign. Although it hadn't been formally announced that he was going to seek renomination as the Democratic Party's presidential candidate, it was clear that JFK was going to run. At the end of September he traveled west. He'd spoke in nine different states in less than a week. And he used the trip to kind of rehearse talking points, talked about things like natural resources, conservation efforts, education, national security and world peace. On November 21, JFK and the First lady departed for the two day, five city tour of Texas. The first stop was San Antonio and JFK ended the day in Fort Worth.

[Narrator/Reporter]

And then of course, the big crowd outside the hotel this morning in Fort Worth where about 8,000 people were on hand to hear the President make a few remarks.

[Dan Snow]

The next day was 22nd November 1963. At 6:30 in the morning, a young man, 24 year old man, called Lee Harvey Oswald went to Work. He was an employee at the Texas Book Depository building in Dallas. He was alongside his colleague Buell Wesley Fraser. Oswald is carrying something long and tells Frazier they're curtain rods for his room. Oswald has a remarkable biography for someone so young. He'd been placed in juvenile detention at age 12. He was assessed as emotionally disturbed, having had a very disjointed family Life. He attended 22 schools in his youth and he joined the Marines at age 17. He was court martialed twice. He was jailed, he defected to the Soviet Union and he'd returned to the United States in 1962. 30 miles east of Lee Harvey Oswald's place of work, President John F. Kennedy is at the Texas Hotel in Fort Worth. It's 7am he's getting ready for his day. He's going to give two speeches and leave Fort Worth for Dallas and drive in a motorcade through the city. Kennedy has just picked up the Dallas Morning News. He sees a now infamous black border ad similar to a newspaper death notice which accuses him of treason. He makes his speeches and then he and Jackie head to Dallas in Air Force One. Air Force One lands at Love Field in Dallas. JFK and First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy are met by the press and crowds.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The President is up to the fence now shaking hands with people. The President and his wife. This is great for the people and makes the eggshells even thinner for the Secret Service whose job it is to guard the.

[Dan Snow]

11:45Am the motorcade. The Kennedys join Texas Governor John Connolly and his wife Nellie in an open air limousine. Vice President Lyndon Johnson and his wife ride in another limo nearby in Fort Worth. The President specified that he wanted to be accessible to the people. He wants the bubble top off as much as possible. Does not want Secret Service agents on the back of his limo. 11:50am Lee Harvey Oswald at the Book Depository. Multiple co workers see Oswald on the first floor of the Book Depository eating lunch simultaneously. The motorcade leaves Love Field and begins the drive through Dallas. Noon. The motorcade heads through downtown Dallas passing through crowds of around 150,000 people. 12:29pm Dealey Plaza. The President's limo turns onto Elm Street.

[Narrator/Reporter]

The President's car is now turning onto Elm street and it will be only a matter of minutes before he arrives at the trademark.

[Dan Snow]

The first shot is fired. It misses the President. A fragment from the bullet or debris from the street hits a man called James Torg who is watching the motorgate in Dealey Plaza. 12:30pm assassination.

[Narrator/Reporter]

It appears as though something has happened in the motorcade route. Something, I repeat, has happened in the motorcade route.

[Dan Snow]

A bullet strikes the President in the back while he waves, causing Kennedy to go into what doctors call Thornburn's position. It's a common neurological response to spinal damage.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Standby. Just a moment, please. Something has happened in the motorcade route.

[Dan Snow]

The third shot is fired. It hits the President on the back right side of his head, causing a portion of his skull behind his ear to blow out.

[Narrator/Reporter]

There has been a shooting. Parkland Hospital has been advised to stand by for a severe gunshot wound. I repeat, a shooting in the motorcade in the downtown area.

[Dan Snow]

The Governor of Texas is also badly wounded. Mrs. Kennedy immediately climbs onto the back of the limousine. She later says she has no recollection of doing so. When she returned to her seat, she said repeatedly, they've killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand. Right after the third shot is fired, Sheriff Bill Decker orders Dallas police officers to the railroad tracks behind the fence on the grassy knoll. You're listening to Dan Snow's history. We're talking about the fateful day when JFK was shot in Dallas. Jeff, thank you very much for coming on the show.

[Jefferson Morley]

Thanks for having me, Dan.

[Dan Snow]

So there's a scene of chaos. How quickly after that third shot is fired does the limousine race off to a hospital?

[Jefferson Morley]

Immediately, the limousine turns onto Elm Street. A series of shots ring out. Governor Connally struck in the back. President Kennedy struck in the back. President Kennedy struck in the head. A bystander is struck by a missed shot. The Secret Service driver immediately takes the car to the nearest hospital, Parkland Hospital. With the press car in hot pursuit, they pull up at Parkland. They've called ahead. The trauma team is ready. The orderlies take the President alive but badly wounded out, put him on a gurney and take him into Trauma Room 1 in Parkland Hospital. Governor Connolly, also wounded, is taken into Trauma Room 2. In Trauma Room 1, doctors converge and try and save Kennedy's life. He is still alive. He has a heartbeat, but he can't speak. And he suffered a massive wound in the back of his head. The press car follows, and Merriman Smith was in the press car. He was a veteran reporter for United Press International, followed the President wherever he went. He was a soldier. He recognized the sounds of the shots, and he was the first one to call in the story. He calls his editors in New York, says three shots were fired at the presidential motorcade in Dallas today. And by 12:31 o', clock, that news is already beginning to hit the Air, you know, radio announcers and TV announcers put that on the air. Shots were fired at the president's limousine. Dr. Robert McClellan was one of the doctors who examined and was trying to save Kennedy's life. One of the senior doctors on the scene, he stood at the head of the gurney and he observed Kennedy's head wound, which was so severe he knew that he was not going to survive. It was indeed a fatal shot. And within half an hour his vital signs had ceased and he was dead. And that announcement went off at about 1 o' clock Central Time on November 22, 1963. So about 90 minutes later, Dallas police arrested a man, Lee Oswald, in the Texas Theater. He had been seen sneaking into the theater and they rushed in and arrested him and he was charged with assassinating the president. Oswald, a 24 year old ex Marine, denied that, denied it vociferously. He said, I didn't shoot anybody. He said it repeatedly and he said, I'm a patsy, I'm a patsy. Meaning he's the fall guy for somebody else. Okay, so this is a shocking event. The President is de. The country's in shock. That next day, Vice President Johnson is sworn in as President. And on Sunday morning, Oswald is taken from the Dallas jail where he's being held and questioned by the FBI and Dallas police and taken to a more secure jail on national tv. And as this happens, as Oswald is brought out, a man steps out of the crowd and shoots him and kills him. And that man was Jack Ruby, the owner of a Dallas nightclub and a man with aspirations to join organized crime. So you have the astonishing assassination of The President followed 36 hours later by the assassination on live television of the supposed assassin. So a completely surreal set of events.

[Dan Snow]

I was gonna say. Also Surreal is Bob McNeill, the legendary news broadcaster who I grew up watching. Well, he was looking for a phone box to call in the news and Lee Harvey Oswald walked past him, apparently on his way out of the Book Depository. Crazy.

[Jefferson Morley]

Yes, yes. So, yeah, newsmen are calling in the story, what happened, and the President is killed on November 22, around lunchtime, 12:30. Oswald's arrested. Later that afternoon, he denies that he is involved in shooting the President. He's interrogated at length, although without a tape recording going. We only have the notes of that interrogation. And the next day, on Sunday, November 24, when he's taken out, he is shot dead himself. So the other important thing to understand about this chain of events is it was that afternoon, on the afternoon of November 24th that the new President, Lyndon Johnson and the Director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover communicated and they decided what they were going to do about what had happened. And they both said the same thing. We need to get out information that this man Oswald acted alone. We want to cut off all speculation about his motives and his foreign contacts. This man acted alone. The President of the United States and the chief law enforcement officer of the United States decided before the President had been buried and before the investigation had really begun what conclusion they wanted. They wanted to find that this one man alone did it. And so the FBI did that. They came back three weeks later and said, this guy Oswald shot the President. We don't know why. And then Ruby shot Oswald because he felt like it. So that wasn't a very satisfying conclusion to anybody much less to a country and a world grieving the loss of a potentially great leader. And so President Johnson appointed the Warren Commission headed by Chief Justice Earl Warren. And the idea, Johnson's idea was the Dallas police would not investigate this murder. The FBI would not investigate this murder. Congress would not investigate this murder. Only this commission would do it. And he stacked the commission with Washington establishment figures. Prominent among them, the former director of the CIA, Alan Dulles. And so the FBI ratifies the lone gunman theory and that's all it is, a theory among many other theories. And the Warren Commission starts to investigate. And what happens is the CIA pretends that they knew nothing about this guy, Lee Harvey Oswald, which was simply false. It was a cover story to hide the Agency's continuing interest in Oswald. From November 1959 when, as a young serviceman, he defected to the Soviet Union moved to the Soviet Union out of sympathy to Communism. And for the next four years, the CIA monitored Oswald quite closely. That was never shared with the JFK investigators. The Warren Commission came to the same conclusion that President Johnson and J. Edgar Hoover wanted. That this one man acted alone for no discernible reason. And this was the real problem with the Warren Commission Report and with the whole official story. I don't even say story anymore. It's the official theory. It's no more credible and a lot less credible than other theories of Kennedy's assassination. But the official theory is this guy killed the President for no reason and Jack Ruby came along and killed him because he felt like it and there was no politics involved. And that's what Johnson wanted. That put the thing to rest. At least it seemed to. The press came out and said, this Warren Commission, this is a wonderful finding. They've proven this beyond a reasonable Doubt, let's move on was the general message of the government.

[Dan Snow]

More on JFK after this.

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[Dan Snow]

Why do you think we get these? Well, you call them conspiracy theories. These alternative explanations for what happened that day.

[Jefferson Morley]

The set of circumstances was surreal. And the fears of conspiracy were created by those circumstances. Not, I might add, by conspiracy theorists. The first week after the assassination, there were no conspiracy theorists. There was only the official story that one man had shot the president for no reason. That was the story of the Dallas police. That was the story of the FBI. That was the story of the White House. That was the story of the CIA. But when pollsters went out and talked to the American people and they said, who do you think was responsible? Already 2/3 of people who responded to two polls in November 1963 said more than one person was involved. So the strange, baffling circumstances of the crime and the execution of the chief suspect created this fear of conspiracy, this suspicion of conspiracy. It was not conspiracy theorists. So that's the story that has come to us over the years and is still really unresolved, you know, 58 years later.

[Dan Snow]

Jeff, how would you characterize the Kennedy administration? What kind of president was he?

[Jefferson Morley]

Jeff, who was Kennedy? Want to understand why he was killed? Kennedy was a popular, liberal president. He was the youngest man ever elected U.S. president, the 35th president elected in 1960. He was a new style of politician, the modern era of featuring charismatic politicians, actors as politicians. Kennedy really inaugurated that era. He was a good looking man. He was handsome. His wife, Jacqueline Kennedy was very chic. He really had a star quality to him. So that was a striking thing about him politically. A liberal, but very cautious, not left wing by any means. His policies on Cuba and Vietnam, though, gave him serious enemies within the U.S. national Security Community. Kennedy had declined to overthrow the government of Cuba not once but twice. And that was a prime goal of the CIA and the Pentagon. In 1960, Fidel Castro had taken power in Cuba and led his company on a kind of leftist revolution completely intolerable to the United States, which was long used to dominating Cuba and Latin America. And so they wanted to assassinate Castro and overthrow him. That became the goal of the CIA. And so in 1960, early 1961, President Kennedy had only been president for a few months. The CIA launched a invasion of Cuba, hoping that this would spark a revolution that would overthrow Castro, who had only been in power for a year or two. The invasion failed, and Kennedy refused to support the invasion with air support, with US Planes. And the people who concocted this plan in the CIA and their allies among the Cubans opposed to Castro never forgave Kennedy for refusing to come to their aid. Kennedy, on the other hand, had been told this plan was going to work and he didn't need to do anything and the United States wouldn't need to intervene. Cuba was not a particularly important country to the United States, economically or strategically. So he refused to invade Cuba, and the Cuban exiles and CIA officers felt bitterly betrayed. That feeling of betrayal that surrounded Kennedy continued a year later in October 1962, with the events known as the Cuban missile crisis in 1962. The Soviet Union installed nuclear missiles in Cuba to keep the US from invading and overthrowing this government. It was a communist government. The Soviet Union supported it because part of the socialist brotherhood, and they wanted to deter the United States from overthrowing communism. So Cuba becomes this flashpoint in the Cold War. It's not an important country politically. It's an important country symbolically. Can the United States prevail or will communism prevail in Cuba? During the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy's general said unanimously, invade, overthrow, destroy him, and we'll solve the Cuba problem forever. Kennedy didn't want to do that. And Kennedy feared, quite correctly, that if he invaded Cuba, the result might be a nuclear war. After all, the Soviet Union had nuclear weapons on the island. So Kennedy proceeded very carefully, and he tries to negotiate the withdrawal of the missiles. He doesn't want to destroy them militarily. He wants to withdraw them. And after two terrifying weeks in which nuclear war seemed very close and probably was, Kennedy gets the Soviet Union to agree to withdraw the missiles. Well, that was very popular with the public. Kennedy shoots up in the polls right after the Cuban missile crisis of October 1962. For Kennedy, the experience of being close to nuclear war was educational. And in 1963, Kennedy really wants to wind down the Cold War. He does not want a nuclear war, fears nuclear war. And so he lays off Cuba. He doesn't do anything to overthrow Castro. He's trying to withdraw from Vietnam despite pressure from his generals to escalate there. He pursues a test ban treaty with the Soviet Union. Kind of more symbolic than real, but the first arms control agreement between the two superpowers, which are really at each other's throat and on a hair trigger. And Kennedy's trying to relax the Cold War throughout 1963. So he's a popular liberal president. Staying out of war in Cuba was very popular, and Kennedy was doing well in the polls in 1963. But it was also a time of political violence in America. And let's not Forget that in June 1963, Medgar Evers, the head of the NAACP, the National association for the Advancement of Colored People, was assassinated in Mississippi because he had been pressing for the end of Jim Crow, for the end of legal segregation. This was very controversial in the United States at the time. Legal segregation had been the law for a century. The civil rights movement, with the support of Kennedy and Johnson, was demanding these rights, and the federal government was finally coming around to ensuring civil rights. Well, Evers was assassinated in the fall of 1963. Someone planted a bomb in the church in Birmingham, Alabama and killed four little girls, African American girls. Kennedy's living in a dangerous time, a time of political violence and he's also made some enemies in the national security community. And in that context, that's when the assassination happens. The Kennedy has been killed supposedly by a communist. Then the communist is killed. I mean, it's no surprise that people quickly rejected the Warren Commission and began to develop other ideas. President Johnson himself appointed the Warren Commission, publicly endorsed its lone gunman finding. Privately he never believed it. He never believed it. On three different times he told people Oswald might have been involved, but other people were involved too. Johnson was quite sure of that.

[Dan Snow]

So you've been at the forefront of trying to find out more and you've been suing the CIA. You've been waiting for new documents to be released. Tell me, how's that struggle going?

[Jefferson Morley]

Well, you know, it's endless. I was in court with the CIA for, believe it or not, 16 years. I filed suit because I wanted to create a paper trail and hold them accountable for hiding records. And I managed to do that and I got some records. But this work requires infinite patience because they are an intelligence agency and they have quite strong powers of secrecy. To this day I think that we have learned a tremendous amount about the events of 1963 in the last 20 years. After Oliver Stone's movie, the US government was shamed into releasing most of its records about Kennedy's assassination. Those records had been secret for 30 years. And when Oliver Stone made a movie about the assassination and made a big deal about these secret records, they finally started to come into the public record. And we've learned a lot since then. And there's a couple things that we know now that we didn't know then. The first was what I mentioned before, the story that the CIA didn't know anything about this guy Lee Oswald. That was a bald faced lie. They knew a lot about him. They had been following him closely for four years. That's one thing. A second thing that came out in 1997 was a secret Pentagon plan to provoke a war with Cuba. This was a war that the generals approved in 1963. The generals who opposed Kennedy's war. More liberal foreign policy. And the plan was to stage a spectacular crime in the United States and arrange for the blame to fall on Cuba. It's a black operation in intelligence parlance. You take an action and you make sure that your enemy is blamed for it. And that's how you debilitate and destroy your enemy. And The CIA is very involved in this plan. The CIA's role is to produce the evidence, quote, unquote, that Castro was involved in some terrible crime. And these planners who were working for the Pentagon had very specific scenarios. One was hijacking a plane, faking a hijacking of a plane. Another was a terror attack in Washington or Miami. A third was to attack a boatload of Cuban refugees. And the United States would do this. And then they blame Castro for it and create the evidence to show that Castro was involved. And then the United States could say, look, this guy's a threat to international peace. He's acting beyond the bounds of civilized nations. We are justified in overthrowing him. That's how the Pentagon wanted to solve the Cuba problem in 1963. Nobody knew about this plan. No assassination investigators were ever told about this plan. And for obvious reasons, because there was a spectacular attack on an American target on November 22, and CIA assets immediately set out to lay the blame on Cuba. So Operation north woods, as this plan was known, serves as kind of a template for what happened in Dallas on November 22nd. So what we're looking for today, the rest of the Operation Northwoods documents, we have a bunch of them, but there are still portions of those that are classified. We want to see the records of CIA personnel who knew about Oswald before the assassination to explore the possibility that he was manipulated and that he was what he said he was, a patsy. Will we ever learn the story? I think we will, and I'm hoping that all the records will come out and we'll have a better explanation of why the President was killed.

[Dan Snow]

Now, we spoke to Jefferson in November 2021. So since then, in the March of this year, the US government, as a result of an executive order from Donald Trump, President Trump, they released thousands of previously classified CA and other agency records related to the JFK assassination. So now the vast majority of the government's JFK records, over 99%, we're told, are publicly available at the National Archives. If you want to trawl through them, they've only got some few minor redactions. And it seems as though to give a precis here, it's a huge job. But it does seem as though these new documents, they give an insight into intelligence operations and surveillance and CIA activities during the Cold War. But it doesn't seem to be the case that there is a smoking gun in these newly released files. They don't change the official conclusion of the assassination investigation. What they do is give a bit of extra context and shed more light into the CIA's prior knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald. It confirms that they were surveilling him prior to the assassination, which perhaps in itself does raise even more questions.

[Jefferson Morley]

The official story that this guy came out of nowhere and shot the President. That's false. He didn't come out of nowhere. He was watched by the CIA for four years. They watched him right into Dallas. So what's the explanation for that? We still don't have a good explanation. That's where things stand today.

[Dan Snow]

Jeff, thank you very much for bringing us up to speed. This is the story that never ends. It's fascinating, eh?

[Jefferson Morley]

Yes, it is.

[Dan Snow]

Thanks so much for listening folks. Who knows, who knows, maybe we'll be revisiting this story again in a few years time if those remaining 1% of the files released. Maybe the grassy doll shooter is in that 1%. Who knows? Now, don't forget to give us a review wherever you get your poems. It really helps others to find this show. And I'll see you next week. We're going to do a deep dive into the Battle of Little Bighorn in some mega episode. This one, you don't want to miss it.

[Jefferson Morley]

Bye bye.

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