Ad/Promo Voice (1:45)

Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With Acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.

Jeffrey Roberts (1:52)

Yep, I recorded a quick ad targeted

Dan Snow (1:54)

listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using Acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.

Ad/Promo Voice (2:04)

Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?

Dan Snow (2:08)

Shopping sustainably. And my sales, of course.

Ad/Promo Voice (2:10)

Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started.

Dan Snow (2:26)

Moscow, June 1945. 40,000 Soviet soldiers parade Through Red Square. Despite the rain, their heads are held high. Their chests are puffed out. Their uniforms are clean and crisp, their boots polished. The metal on the barrel of their rifles is buffed to a high sheen. They bask in the glow of victory. It is a moment to reflect upon their historic achievement in the face of almost overwhelming suffering inflicted on the Soviet Union during the Second World War. They have put behind them the bloody humiliation and chaos of 1941 and 1942. They have come through costly victories involving the sacrifice of millions. But the Soviet Union is victorious, and now one of the most powerful states in the world. At the head of this mighty display of military power rides a man on a white charger. The horse is testy, skittish, difficult to handle. But its rider deftly controls his excitable steed. His demeanor is confident. It's bullish. He sits upright in his saddle as he trots along the mass ranks of Soviet troops. As the parade passes Lenin's mausoleum, the bands strike up and there's the deafening sound of thousands of men unleashing a mighty hoorah. Swept along on this flood of warriors are the banners, the flags of their fascist foes. The official story is that these are thrown into a great pile at the foot of Lenin's mausoleum. An offering, a symbol of victory. But according to an eyewitness, they're actually thrown at the feet of the man on the white charger. Recognition of his key role as the architect of Soviet triumph. This is his moment, basking in the esteem of his men. On top of Lenin's mausoleum, dignitaries are gathered to watch the parade. Generals and diplomats from around the world, high ranking Politburo members. At their center stands Joseph Stalin. He's the unquestioned leader of a victorious nation, arguably the mightiest military power on the planet. Something seems to be distracting him. He's no longer watching the massed ranks of his men streaming past. Instead, his eyes are locked onto the man riding the white horse. He sees the self assured control of its rider, the reverence with which the men view him. And a cloud of poisonous suspicion begins to fill his thoughts. The man riding the white charger is Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, Marshal of the Soviet Union. Stalin's favorite general until now. The savior of Moscow in 1941, architect of the transformation in around Stalingrad in 42 and 43. The man who led Soviet armies from defeat to victory in campaigns that would crush Hitler's forces and ultimately capture the very capital of the Third Reich, Berlin. In 1945. Zhukov was the archetypal Soviet warrior. From humble origins, he'd risen through the ranks to become one of the mightiest warlords of the Second World War. With millions of men at his command, he's considered by some to be one of the greatest military leaders of all time. And perhaps it was just that his popularity, his reputation, his success that would lead to his downfall. As insecure Soviet leaders felt the threat he posed to their control. You're listening to Dan Snow's history. This is episode 5 in our Commanders series. We're digging into the lives and decisions of five legendary World War II commanders. Going to cut through the myth. We're going to examine what shaped them, what shaped their styles of command. In this episode, we're going to be joined by historian Jeffrey Roberts, emeritus professor of history at University College, Cork. He is an expert on Russian Soviet foreign and military policy and on Stalin in the Second World War. So we've come to the right place. He's even written a biography of today's subject called Stalin's the Life of Georgy Zhukov. He is the perfect person to help us determine whether Marshal Zhukov truly deserves his reputation as one of the great commanders of the Second World War. In December 1896, around 60 miles east of Moscow, in the town of Strelkovka, Zhukov was born. His origins were humble indeed. His family were peasants. His father was a cobbler, his mother a laborer.

Jeffrey Roberts (7:30)

Zhukov came from a peasant background. At the age of 12, he was apprenticed to Zafariya. He was very fortunate that when he was a child, this was a time when primary education was being introduced into the Russian countryside. Yeah. So he had an elementary education, so he had an educational foundation for his later successes. And of course, he received more education as part of his service in the armed forces. By the time the. The outbreak of the First World war in. In 1914, he's finished his apprenticeship and he has a couple of apprentices of his own now. Interesting point here is that when war breaks out, Zhukov is not among those who volunteers for military service. He waits until he's conscripted. So he's conscripted into the tsarist army in 1915. And because he is a skilled worker and because he also has a certain level of education, he gets posted to a cavalry regiment. Yeah. So he's part of the elite of the Tsarist army. During the First World War, Zhukov may

Dan Snow (8:29)

have joined a fashionable unit where the officers were aristocrats, princes of the blood sort who moved in and around royal circles. But the Troopers, the guys who did the grunt work. You'll be surprised to learn people like Zhukov were cut from a different cloth. They were still very much peasants, but it meant that people like him got a glimpse into another world entirely. With war, some comes opportunity, and Zhukov began to show his qualities as a soldier and a leader. But unlike many of the commanders in this series, the First World War was only an initial stepping stone for Zhukov. Instead, it was what followed. It was the Russian Civil War that really forged Zhukov into the commander that we recognize today.

Jeffrey Roberts (9:13)

He gets promoted, he's an uncommissioned officer, and he has quite a good service record. He sees quite a lot of action. He's wounded a couple of times, he's decorated for bravery. But then what happens is that come the 1917 revolution in Russia, the Tsarist army disintegrates, in large part including Zhukov's unit at that time. So then basically Zhukov returns home, returns to his home village. But then what happens next is that Zhukov is conscripted again, is conscripted by the Bolsheviks into the newly created Workers and Peasants army, which comes to be known as, as the Red Arm. And he's conscripted because he has this military experience. He's an nco. He's just the kind of person they want to get back into the armed forces. But again, he's conscripted, right? But when he's conscripted into the newly created Red army, that's when his political education becomes. Before that, he wasn't very political at all. But when he becomes part of the Red army, then he gets very political and indeed himself becomes a communist, right? It's actually when he becomes a Red army soldier, that's when he develops the self control and discipline for which he later becomes famous and determination. But of course, I can remember, like, he's growing up, this is his early adulthood. And yeah, sure, he matures, but again, in the Red army, he has a successful career. He becomes what's effectively an officer. He's decorated for bravery. Again, he sees quite a lot of military action. But post Revolution, when the Russian Civil War comes to an end in 1921, 1922, Zhukov opts to remain within the Red Army. So it's his choice to continue the life of a soldier. And what he says about that, he says that what he liked about being a soldier was that every day was different. There's always something new happening, something going on. So for him, soldiering was always interesting.

Dan Snow (11:06)

The Russian Civil War really shaped the military Education that someone like Zhukov received. To put it simply, this wasn't a war of trenches and static lines across the Western Front like the First World War. It was chaotic, it was sprawling, it was forced across vast territories. There were enormous advances and retreats from 1917 to 1923. Mobility was everything. Huge cavalry armies galloped across immense distances, often with little logistical support. Keeping men supplied with food, ammunition, winter clothing was as challenging as defeating the enemy. It was the kind of warfare that demanded quick thinking, improvisation, constant movement, decisiveness, and the ability to identify and then strike at weak points across a shifting front. For an officer, speed, endurance, initiative were more important than, for example, marshaling overpowering firepower.

Jeffrey Roberts (12:06)

It is very much a very mobile war. It's a war of maneuver, constantly changing front lines. Very, very complex struggle. Because, okay, so it's a civil war between the Bolsheviks on the one hand and the so called white Armies on the other hand. But there's several different white armed formations that the Bolsheviks are fighting on several different fronts. And Zhukov actually serves on several different fronts. So that's a very complex, fluid struggle. And of course, it is a civil war. Right. So there's a struggle, a very brutal struggle going on behind the lines as well as on the front line as well. And in fact, Zhukov's part of that. His last milit action during the Civil War period, at the end of the Civil War period, was being part of a unit that was suppressing very brutally suppressing a peasant revolt against Bolshevik rule. For all of the Red Army's like, top commanders later on in the Second World War, the Civil War, more so than the First World War, is a hugely kind of like formative experience in their military education.

Dan Snow (13:01)

Yeah. Mobility, being very confident with astonishing uncertainty. I can imagine. Not sure where the enemy even are, what, where you're going to be advancing next season. And then also, you know, pivot strike, pivot strike in different directions, different. You know, I can imagine that it's a heck of a training.

Jeffrey Roberts (13:15)

Yeah, sure. But Zhukov is also trying to reduce the uncertainty. Yes, right. To understand the situation, to grasp the situation. Right. To actually control it. I think that's one of his qualities as he matures as a top level military commander, is that ability to envisage what's going on in a very complex battlefield or a complex campaign or a series of operations and attempt to actually impose order and discipline, because that's the way you're going to win.

Dan Snow (13:41)

The mobility of the Civil War suited Zhukov. He was a covering man, after all. Never Happier than in the saddle, covering vast distances, taking an enemy in the flank by surprise. The war had taught him about managing complex and confusing combat situations. The importance of maneuver warfare. By 1923, following the victory of the Red army in the Civil War, he was in command of a cavalry regiment. He would go on to graduate from the higher school of Cavalry in 1925 and progressed to the elite Frunze Military Academy. By 1933, he commanded an entire cavalry division. But as Zhukov advanced through the ranks, a new threat emerged. But that wasn't an attack by an enemy nation. It was the enemies at home he needed to worry about. During the 1930s, Stalin had become paranoid about potential opposition groups derailing the Soviet project, or more accurately, his project. He orchestrated a massive series of purges. These peaked in around 1986-1938, during what became known as the Great Purge. Hundreds of thousands of so called enemies of the people were arrested. They were tortured, they were executed, imprisoned. Stalin's secret police were busy. These purges were accompanied by show trials. Though accusations of treason and sabotage, much of the old Bolshevik elite were destroyed, Stalin's personal dictatorship was cemented in. Every strata of society was affected. Party officials, intellectuals, ordinary citizens, the Soviet military high command were far from immune. Between 1937 and 38, thousands of officers from Marshall downwards were removed, in some cases tried and executed. When so many officers face ruin, imprisonment and death, how did Zhukov survive?

Jeffrey Roberts (15:35)

Well, it didn't just survive, he thrives. Zhukov personally benefits from the purges. So in the 1920s, Zhukov is a Red army commander. He becomes a regimental commander. That's where he remains for 1920s, seven years, he's a regimental commander. It's only in the 1930s that his promotion to the very top ranks of the Red army begin. Okay. And that for two reasons. First is because there's a massive expansion of the Soviet armed forces during the 1930s and rearmament, you know, to actually meet various external threats which Stalin and the other Soviet leaders see. Right. But the second thing that's going on is from the mid-1930s on was are these like massive purges of the armed forces? Right. And it's actually the purging of various people that creates vacancies for Zhukov to fill. So that's what's happened when he's getting promoted. He's actually stepping into the positions that previously been held by officers who have now been purged. Why is Zhukov himself not put. It's because he's loyal and also because, okay, Zhukov becomes A Communist adopts a Communist identity. He's committed to the Communist cause. But Zhukov is not very political. Right. So he doesn't get involved in political intrigues. Yeah. So he's kind of like, relatively apoliticalness, I think, helps him survive, but basically he remains lawyer. He doesn't cause any trouble. He's not to seem to be a political challenge in any way. But there's no doubt at all that personally, in terms of his career progress, Zhukov benefits from Stalin's purges. When Zhukov comes decades later to write his memoirs, he tries to put a different spin on that. He says he was lucky to escape the purges, and he tells stories about how he came under threat. Now, you know, I'm one of Zhukov's biographers. I kind of like to believe these stories, but I don't see any evidence for them. I'm a bit skeptical about that. Yeah. Zhukov survives because he was a loyal Soviet soldier and Communist. And also he gets promoted because he's a very able soldier, a very able commander. Okay. He's no military genius. He's actually not one of the rising stars of the Red army in the 1930s. Right. But he's very, very, very solid. He's very, very, very liable, very, very competent. And whatever position he's given, he gets the job done.

Dan Snow (17:50)

Zhukov's rise had so far been steady. He was clearly a competent officer, and perhaps more importantly, at that point, he was a reliable, loyal Communist and party member. But in May 1939, Zhukov received the posting that would put him on the map as a battlefield commander. Between 1938 and 1939, there had been a series of bloody clashes, now largely forgotten but super important at the time, between Soviet and Japanese troops along the Khalkhin Gol river on the Mongolian Manchurian border. Zhukov was initially sent to investigate the reasons for unsatisfactory Soviet performance in the area. But as Jeffrey explained, this was an act of fate that would push Zhukov to the fore with a victory that would have an outsized strategic effect.

Jeffrey Roberts (18:44)

Zhukov is also very lucky in his career in many ways. And this is one of these lucky turning points in his life because basically, he's sent to Mongolia, to the Mongolian Manchurian border in May 1939 on an inspection tour. He's sent there to have a look at the Red army formation there, which is, like, locked in a. Not actually in combat with the Japanese, but in a confrontation with the Japanese, because Japan had invaded Manchuria in 1931, and that had Created a border between Japanese occupied Manchuria and Mongolia. And there are border clashes, There are border conflicts and tensions. It's not actually quite clear. So Zhukov sent to a place called river to actually inspect, see what's going on, to assess the performance of the local military command. But what, what happens when he's there is that there are some actual clashes with the Japanese. Clashes in which the Soviets don't perform too well actually. Right. So that creates an opening for Zhukov because his masters in Moscow decide as he's on the spot and he's got a good reputation, they decide to appoint him the commander of the local forces at Halken Gol. So that's how he comes to this senior command on the Mongolian Manchurian border and how he comes to fight this battle with the Japanese in August 1939, the hawking gold battle. Okay. And what he does is that he, during his battle, he executes a classic kind of encirclement maneuver against the Japanese army. You know, he advances in the center, pins the Japanese down and then outflanks them and he encircles Japanese force and he fix a huge defeat on Japanese forces. The Japanese defeat at Huckinball reinforces the difficulties they'll have in relation to their campaign in China, which isn't going very well. So it reinforces the advocates of the so called southern strategies that Japan should actually expand into Southeast Asia in the Pacific, of course, which actually precipitates the clash with the United States. And that makes his reputation as a military. Come on. Of course, this is his first large scale combat operation. Yeah, okay. He had combat experience from the First World War and Civil War, but it's not until 1939 that he actually conducts an actual military operation. Yeah. So leads to him later being promoted to the rank of full general. Zuko is also lucky in another respect. So he has this luck being the man on the spot in time for this battle with the Japanese, which is very successful. But after the hulking Gol battle, Zhukov remains in Mongolia to negotiate with the Japanese the terms of the armistice and negotiate a settlement of the conflict there. So he's out in Mongolia for several months after August 1939, which of course coincides with the Red Army's attack on Finland in the winter of 1939-40. Right. And of course that, okay, ultimately the Red army subdues the Finns, forces the Finns to sign a peace treaty which concedes the territory that Stalin wanted to capture from Finland. But the campaign's a very costly One, and there's lots of mistakes made earlier. But Zhukov, because he's in the Far east, has nothing to do with the campaign, so his reputation remains unblemished.

Dan Snow (22:07)

Following his success in Mongolia, Zhukov was awarded the Soviet Union's highest military honor, Hero of the Soviet Union, the first of four occasions on which he'd received the award. He was also promoted to General and given command of the Kiev Special Military District, a vitally important role in defense of the Soviet Union's western borders.

Jeffrey Roberts (22:27)

After the Finnish War, the Winter War, Stalin appoints Marshal Timoshenko as the new Defence Minister. And Marshal Timoshenko and Zhukov are quite personally close, having served together in the 1930s. So Zhukov's appointment to that major position is part, at least in part, to do with his personal connections to Timoshenko. I don't think Zhukov was thinking about defending the Soviet Union. No, no, no. What he's thinking about is like all the Red army leaders are thinking about, they're thinking about how they're going to attack Germany. I'm not saying what offensive operations they're going to conduct. Because the basic strategic orientation of the Red army high command, Zhukov included, was that when the Germans attacked, they weren't just going to sit back and defend, they were going to deal with that attack by launching a series of counteroffensives. And that's one of the reasons why Zhukov is posted to this frontline military district based around Kiev, because of his offensive success at Hulking Gol and because he's seen as someone who will be able to conduct the large scale offensive operations which the Soviets plan to initiate when the Germans attack them. And it's also that kind of offensive minded orientation of Zhukov's which leads to his next promotion. So he's head of the Kiev Military District, 1940, early 1941. Then in February 1941, he's appointed chief of the General Staff. Okay. And that appointment follows a series of war games that the Soviets had conducted in January 1941. And these are war games about fighting a war with Germany. And Zhukov had taken part in those war games and had basically won. Won these war games. So again, that reinforces his reputation as someone who has the ability to actually conduct counter offensive operations against the Germans when the war comes. So it makes sense to actually appoint Zhukov Chief of the General Staff because that's the basic strategic concepts that the Soviets have when war begins. They're going to fight an offensive war against Germany. That doesn't mean or necessarily mean they're going to launch a preemptive strike. Or the idea is when the Germans attack, the Soviets are going to counterattack. And Zhukov is seen as being the right person to be Chief of the General Staff in relation to that strategy. But here's the thing. Zhukov wasn't really a staff officer. He never had been. I don't think Zhukov ever really wanted to be Chief of the General Staff. You know, Zhukov was a frontline officer. That was where his talent lay, actually, not as a Chief of the general staff.

Dan Snow (25:09)

In June 1941, Nazi Germany and its allies launched Operation Barbarossa. It was the largest invasion in human history. Millions of enemy troops poured across the border from German occupied Poland into the Soviet Union. Zhukov's plans would finally be put to the test. They would be found severely lacking.

Jeffrey Roberts (25:33)

A crucial point here about the initial success of Operation Barbarossa. Right. A lot of it was very much to do with the flawed nature of the Soviet preparations for this offensive war with Germany. Because what happens, okay, when the Germans launch Operation Barbarossa, the Soviets attempt to implement these plans for counteroffensive operations. And Zhukov is very much part of that. He's an active part of it. The Germans attack on June 22. Within a day or two, Zhukov has returned to the Kyiv military district to actually take part in the counteroffensive that's going to be launched from that direction. But these counteroffensives turn out to be disastrous. They fail, and they actually expose hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops to encirclement. Right. Those massive encirclement operations also reveal another problem with Soviet preparation for the war, is that they don't have any doctrine or plans or training to deal with encirclement, because that wasn't what they anticipated happening. They didn't anticipate being encircled. They anticipated encircling the German attackers. Zhukovas chief of the General Staff does bear a lot of responsibility for the disaster that befalls the Red army as a result of Operation Barbarossa. It's not just him, it's obviously the whole of the high command and obviously Stalin. Stalin is the supreme commander. Ultimately, it's Stalin's responsibility, not Zhukov's. But what you can say in Zhukov's favor is that in response to this huge disaster which unfolds as a result of Operation Barb Russell, where the Germans are very, very quickly reach the outskirts of Leningrad, Moscow, they capture Kyiv, they're penetrating very deep into Ukraine and southern Russia. It's at no time during this process, does he lose his cool? He keeps his composure, and that's generally true of the Red Army. But one thing that does happen as a result of Barbarossa, what's going on, and it's not to do with failure, is that Zhukov leaves the position of Chief of the Soviet General Staff, is placed in charge of a reserve front. Right. What's called a reserve front, actually. Quite a big front, about 50 divisions. Right. It is sometimes seen as a demotion, but I don't think it was. Zhukov was stepping aside as being Chief of the General Staff because he had a lot more to contribute as being actually a frontline commander of this reserve front. And it's this reserve front, actually, that's actually launched a partially successful counter offensive against the Germans as they're advancing towards Moscow along the Smolensk, Moscow axis. Yeah. But the other thing to say about this disaster of June 22, right, is that at the time, it wasn't so shocking because, of course, this is the German army that conquered France in just a few weeks, overrun Western Europe. It wasn't shocking that the Germans had this huge military successes initially with Operation. So that said, blame wasn't being attached. Right. What was actually shocking or came to be shocking was the Soviets, the Red Army, Zhukov, Stalin, the Soviet Hakov, they were able to survive this huge defeat. Huge defeat. By the end of 1941, the Soviets have suffered 4 million casualties. Just think about that.

Dan Snow (28:53)

Barbarossa had been a catastrophe. Millions of men had been lost, thousands of kilometers of territory lost, untold destruction done. German forces advanced deep into the Soviet Union. Following his removal as Chief of staff in July 1941, Zhukov was sent to take control of several critical frontline commands. He redeemed himself. He proved his mettle as a frontline commander. He played a key role in stabilising collapsing sectors, such as during the defence of Leningrad. By the autumn, the fall of 1941, both sides had been battered and bloodied. But the German High Command was determined to make one last push to finish off the Soviet Union. That year. They would strike at the capital, Moscow. They would decapitate the Soviet state. Zhukov was placed in charge of its defense.

Jeffrey Roberts (29:46)

Of course, there is this famous photo of advanced German units being within the sight of the Kremlin. Yes. And they're there. And there's a. In the distance, there's the. The crim. That's what nowadays we would call, like, fake news. Yes, it's a fake photo, obviously. It's a propaganda photo. Okay, so. But why is it that the Germans are approaching Moscow when initially during the autumn, where you have the famous resputitza, the time of bad roads, because of the rain and stuff like that, mud and things like that, and then following that, because of, like, the wintry conditions which develop in October, November. Why is it that they're approaching that point? Well, they're approaching that part because they're advanced on. Moscow has been held up for about two months in the Smolensk area. Huge battles going on in the Smolensk area which delay the German approach to Moscow, to the outskirts of Moscow. And it's really those Smolensk battles that are actually crucial battles in saving Moscow from German capture. And, of course, one of those Smolensk battles is the battle that Zhukov waged as command of a disreserve front, Battle of Yelnaya. And it's a battle in the Smolensk area where Zhukov is able to push the Germans back, actually recapture occupied territory. Now, okay, the Germans recapture that territory not long after, but it's part of the massive delay the Germans suffer on the road to Moscow. But The Germans, by October 1941, are very much within striking distance of Moscow. Zhukov is recalled to Moscow by Stalin to take control of the defense of Moscow. He's recalled, by the way, from Leningrad. Yeah. And he'd been sent to Leningrad by Stalin in order to help save Leningrad from German capture. Okay. But then Moscow becomes more of a priority. So Stalin brings him to Moscow, puts him in command of an army formation called the Western Front. So the Soviet. The Western Front of the Soviet army. And its task is to defend the Soviet capital from the German, German advance. And that's what it does. But also what's happening at the same time is that the. The Soviets are accumulating reserves east of Moscow, number of divisions east of Moscow, with a view to actually launching a counteroffensive which will push the Germans away and safeguard Moscow. And Zhukov is very much part of the planning and preparation for that counteroffensive. Of course, he's in charge of it. He's the commander of the front that conducts that. It's actually Zhukov's defense of Moscow and his counteroffensive, Moscow, that really makes his reputation as a Soviet general. That's when it happens. Right. So Zhukov very much seen as being the savior of Moscow. Of course, the other person who's seen as being the savior of Moscow at the time and also in retrospect is Stalin, because Stalin doesn't evacuate the Soviet capital. There is quite a large scale evacuation of various Soviet ministries and diplomats and so on to Kubashev out of harm's way. But Stalin himself remains in Moscow. And of course, there's this famous parade through red square on November 7, 1941, where Stalin reviews. Reviews the troops. Troops which are parading through resc. Were very shortly afterwards being sent to the front. So there's a huge kind of, like, psychological aspect to the Moscow battle, and Zhukov's very much part of that psychology that we can survive and we can win, but also Stalin as well. So it's Stalin and Zhukov who saved Moscow, the two of them together. And that is actually what the Moscow counteroffensive signified was the Operation Barbarossa had failed as a strategic operation. It was a failure. And now what the Germans were faced with, they were faced with fighting a war of attrition on the Eastern Front, and that was a war that they were going to lose. And of course, who was it who commanded the Soviet forces that launched the Moscow counter offensive? It was Zhukov.

Dan Snow (33:50)

You listen to Dan Snow's history. Hit the the best is yet to come. Stick with us.

Hayden (34:01)

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan. Fellas, I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

Stephen (34:09)

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

Hayden (34:13)

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

Stephen (34:22)

That's right.

Dan Snow (34:22)

Hei, hei.

Stephen (34:23)

So each week, you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

Hayden (34:27)

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

Stephen (34:34)

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

Jeffrey Roberts (34:42)

Okay, caller one wins courtside seats to tonight's game.

Hayden (34:47)

What?

Jeffrey Roberts (34:47)

I won floor seats.

Ad/Promo Voice (34:48)

You did?

Hayden (34:49)

I've been calling for 13 months. Wait.

Jeffrey Roberts (34:51)

Chris.

Hayden (34:52)

Yes. I finally did it.

Jeffrey Roberts (34:54)

What are you gonna wear?

Hayden (34:54)

Men's Wearhouse. They've got today's looks for any occasion, and I need to look like a celebrity. Don't want to stick out. Exactly. They've got Chill Flex by Kenneth Cole, Joseph Abood, and a tailor at every

Dan Snow (35:04)

store for the perfect fit. Congrats. You can stop calling now. Not a chance.

Ad/Promo Voice (35:08)

Hit any look for Every occasion at Men's Wearhouse. Love the way you look.

Dan Snow (35:13)

Are you looking for the perfect podcast to hunker down with during the longer, colder, darker nights?

Jeffrey Roberts (35:20)

Well, look no further than the award winning After Dark Myths, misdeeds and the paranormal with me, Maddy Pelling and me, Anthony Delaney.

Dan Snow (35:28)

We are historians and love all things

Jeffrey Roberts (35:30)

gloomy and macabre, from Tudor executioners and ancient Egyptian death rituals to witch trials and folklore. Feel transported back in time on After Dark, out every Monday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Dan Snow (35:43)

And guess what? We're also now on YouTube. After Dark, a podcast from history hit. Zhukov hadn't just halted the Nazi juggernaut outside Moscow, but for the first time in this war, he'd inflicted a stinging defeat upon it. This helped to convince Stalin that. That he'd finally found the right man for one of the toughest jobs in military history. Jeffrey explains Stalin had met Zhukov.

Jeffrey Roberts (36:19)

He knew Zhukov. He knew about, of course, you know about Halkin Goll. Right. He'd work very closely with Zhukov when Zhukov was Chief of the General Staff. Zhukov has scores of meetings with Stalin in the period leading up to the German invasion in June 1940. Yeah. So Stein absolutely knows him. Right. That's why he placed him in charge of this reserve fronts. Right. I think Zhukov's request. I think Zhukov requested to be relieved of the petition of Chief of the General Staff because he thought he could do more good in charge of this reserve. Now, there's a. An important biographical point to make here, which is in his memoirs, Zhukov claims that he was dismissed as being Chief of the General Staff because he'd opposed Stalin's policy in relation to Kiev. Right. So there was a big battle of Kiev in the summer of 1941. Right. And basically Zhukov claims that he wanted to withdraw Soviet forces from the Kiev era to save them from encirclement by the Germans. Whereas Stalin opposed that. Stalin didn't want to give up the defense of Kiev. So Zhukov says, well, we disagree. So Stalin removed me of my position and then I went to command this reserve. I'm not saying I don't think that happened. I'm not saying there wasn't a disagreement. I think there was a disagreement between Zhukov and Stalin over what to do at Kiev, but I don't think that was the reason he left the chief of General star position and went to reservoir. I went to Roseville because he was seen as the person that could actually do a job there in terms of mounting some Kind of actual successful counter offensive against the Germans. And he did that. He succeeded. And then he goes to Leningrad, and he does quite a good job in Leningrad. So Zhukov is the obvious man for Stalin to call to Moscow to defend Moscow. And Moscow is very much seen as under frere. You know, just not a. Not theory or notion. Right. Stalin. The Soviets fear greatly that Moscow is going to be captured by the Germans. So it's quite natural that Stalin will bring his best general back to Moscow to conduct the defense of the Soviet capital. And here's the thing. Why does Stalin see Zhukov as his best general? Okay, it's obviously to do with Zhukov's performance as a commander, but it's also to do with Stalin's absolute conviction about Zhukov's loyalty and discipline and that he will do what is necessary, whatever it takes, and he'll also follow orders. He'll carry out his instructions to let. So Stalin has this huge, huge kind of trust in Zhukov as his top general.

Dan Snow (38:59)

Moscow may have been saved, but victory was far from assured. The Wehrmacht and its allies may have received a bloody nose in the snows outside the Soviet capital, but its strength was certainly not spent yet. During the summer of 1942, Nazi Germany launched a monumental new offensive, this time in southern Russia. The aim was to seize the Soviet oil fields of the Caucasus, something vital to both sides. Germany needed them to fuel its war machine, and their loss would cripple the Soviet capacity to fight. German forces surging across southern Russia also struck towards the Volga around the city of Stalingrad in a bid to disrupt Soviet traffic on that great river, as well as seize the important industrial city. Zhukov would once again be called on by Stalin as the Soviet Union faced another crisis.

Jeffrey Roberts (39:54)

The failure of Operation Barbarossa and the success of the Moscow counteroffensive. Okay, there are a series of winter battles, but basically there's kind of retrenchment by both sides as they prepare for the next round of spring and summer campaigning that's launched in June 1942. And like Barbarossa, initially, that campaign is a huge success. Although the casualties suffered by the Soviet side in summer 1942 are considerably less than they were in 1941. The Soviets had learned some lessons about defense and about needing to retreat now. Okay, so the Germans have launched a summer campaign, but actually Stalin and Zhukov remain convinced that the main battle is going to take place in front of Moscow. Their view is that Moscow is still the Germans main target, because if the Germans could capture Moscow, they can win the War, effectively, they don't really appreciate what's going on in the south. It takes them a while to get up to speed. Right. But once Stalin does get up to speed and sees what's happening in the south, sees the breakthroughs that the Germans are making in the southern theater, right? And sees the. The threat to stalingrad, like by August 42, the Germans are on the outskirts of Stalingrad. That's the moment in which he gives Zhukov another job. Right. He transfers him from being the chief of the Western Front command, and he makes Zhukov his deputy supreme commander. Right. And Zhukov's job as deputy supreme commander is basically his Stalin's personal representative, has all the power and authority that entails, but his most fundamental task is to coordinate the activities of the different Soviet fronts, because there are a number of different fronts and they're fighting alongside each other. Designate to coordinate their action, to supervise their action. Right. So that's Zhukov's job as Stavka coordinator. Okay. And the first place he sent to do this job of coordination is sent to Stalingrad, to the Stalingrad area to actually coordinate the defense of Stalingrad city itself, but also on the flanks of the city and also the fighting that's going on elsewhere in the south. So Zhukov is very much at the center of the unfolding action at Stalingrad. But the question is, okay, so the Soviets are defending. They're trying to stop the Germans from capturing the whole of Stalingrad. Of course, the Germans, as you know, actually did capture up to 90% of Stalingrad, but it. The 10% that didn't capture was crucial to maintaining supply lines across the Volga. But the question is, what are you going to do apart from defending Stone? Okay, and what you're going to do is another version of what the Soviets had done in relation to the Moscow battle. You're going to build up your forces in the rear and on the flanks, and you're going to launch a counteroffensive. A counteroffensive which has two goals. Firstly, to encircle the Germans within the city of Stalingrad, but actually, more importantly, actually to cut off the Germans southern campaign, to trap the German forces heading towards Baku in the south. And that concept is not just about Stalingrad. It's not just about defeating the German sovereign campaign or rolling it back. It's actually seen as a bit of war winning, grand strategy. Yeah. Soviet speak. If they can pull this off, they cannot just win in the south. They can win across the whole of the front. It's Zhukov and not Just Zhukov. It's Zhukov and Vasilevsky. Vasilevsky, who is the new chief of the Soviet General Staff. And Zhukov and Vasilevsky were very closely together in the war. It's Zhukov and Vasilevsky's plan for this massive counter effect. It's their idea. They're the two who actually supervise the development, the operationalization of this plan. And that's what happened. Of course, we know there is this famous Soviet counteroffensive in November 1942 which very successfully entrapped the Germans in Stargrad. Paulus's General Palace's 6th Army. Yeah. Actually the Soviets are rather surprised at how many Germans they trap. They'd anticipate trapping about 100,000, but as it turns out, there's about 300,000 German troops. They trump. So that's very successful. And then we all know about the subsequent siege of the German forces in Stalingrad and their eventual surrender at the end of January 1943. The other Soviet operational goal is not achieved. They don't succeed in trapping the Germans in the south. The Germans are able to withdraw their forces. And the fact that the German are able to withdraw their forces from the thrust towards Baku, that's of huge significance because what that means is that for the next two years they're able to wage a fighting step by step defensive campaign in southern Russia and very, very importantly in Ukraine. So that failure of the. Actually the bigger goal of the operation is quite a cyclical. But what stands out, it's a huge success.

Dan Snow (45:09)

Despite the vast bloodshed at Stalingrad, Zhukov had once again achieved a stunning victory. And it is argued that it was here that the tide of the war was irrevocably turned. But how had he done it? And would there be any way back for Nazi Germany?

Jeffrey Roberts (45:26)

It's meticulous preparation, preparation of overwhelming force to actually deliver the offensive blows and achieve the operational effect. Attention to detail. Zhukov is obsessed with preparation accessed within inspections. Right. Training. Yeah. Assembling all the technical means necessary to actually conduct the operations. Right. It's his imagination which leads to this concept of a massive counter offensive operation at Stalingrad. But in practical terms, he's involved in the coordination of the fronts, the various fronts involved in the operation, and also making sure that the fronts are actually prepared and able to carry out their operational tasks. I suppose the over hallmark of Zhukov is he places a great emphasis on Maskirovka. Masking, yes. Covering up Soviet intentions. And that is a big feature of the preparations for the Stalingrad counteroffensive is the degree to which the Soviets are able to cover up their intentions and to actually spring quite a big surprise on the Germans. And not just on the Germans, of course, because the big success of the Stalingrad operation wasn't just entrapping the Germans. It was breaking through the flanks of the Axis armies. That campaign broke the Italian, Romanian, and Hungarian armies, didn't it? And it's actually their defeat at Stalingrad that leads to the disintegration, the political disintegration of Hitler's Axis alliance. And the way I look at the Stalingrad battle is that the Stalingrad battle is the point of no return for the Germans. There's no way back from the strategic defeat at Stalingrad. Oh, Stalingrad. There's no doubt about the outcome of the war. The question is, how long is it going to take? How costly is it going to be? Right. So for me, Stalingrad is the great turning point of the Soviet German war. War. Right.

Dan Snow (47:25)

Zhukov may have achieved remarkable victories and broken the back of the Axis armies, but it had all come at a terrible price. Soviet casualties would continue to be terrible throughout the remainder of the war. A common criticism of Zhukov is that he was careless with the lives of his men. But is that really the case? Jeffrey doesn't think so.

Jeffrey Roberts (47:45)

Nothing annoyed Zhukov more than these accusations that he was indifferent to the casualties on his own side.

Dan Snow (47:52)

Right.

Jeffrey Roberts (47:53)

Nothing in Naikov more than armchair generals lecturing him or anyone else on how they could have won all these battles at far less cost, more efficiently. Right. Look, Zhukov's casualties were no worse than any other Soviet generals. If you actually compare the stats, they're more or less the same. So the casualties are a function of the situation and the nature of the war. If you think about the casualties that are incurred on the Western Front during the First World War, it's kind of comparable levels we're talking about here in the Eastern Front context. But the other thing to remember is that Zhukov, Stalin in particular as well, were very sensitive about the issue of casualties, because, of course, Soviet manpower resources are not unlimited. At various point in the war, they find themselves running out of personnel. So they very concede to conserve their personnel as far as possible. But having said that, yeah, I mean, Zhukov, Stalin hold the Soviet command. They were prepared to sacrifice what soldiers were necessary to achieve their goals. I don't think they were, like, callous or cruel in relation to their troops, but they were certainly ruthless and determined and were prepared to incur high casualties, very high casualties. In order to win the war. Okay, you can certainly make an argument they could have won the war with fewer casualties, but who knows? You can say that their disciplinary regime was too harsh. I mean, during the war, the Soviets executed more than 150,000 their own troops for whatever various offensives. Right. But anyhow, you have to ask the question, was that the only way that they could win the war? And are you prepared to risk losing the war by maybe having a more benign approach to military discipline?

Dan Snow (49:41)

You listen to Dan Snow's history. There's more coming up.

Hayden (49:53)

Howdy, howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fan Girls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

Stephen (50:01)

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

Hayden (50:05)

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

Stephen (50:14)

That's right.

Dan Snow (50:14)

Hei, hei.

Stephen (50:15)

So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

Hayden (50:19)

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

Stephen (50:26)

Newsflash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fanfellas wherever you get your podcasts.

Ad/Promo Voice (50:33)

Lets be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? The fact is, a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never really wanted in the first place. But we stick it out and we give reasons, like what if the next move is worse? And I've put years into this place, and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you get from where you are to where you want to be, either at your existing job or by helping you find a new one. Your coach helps clarify your goals, creates a plan, and keeps you accountable along the way. Go to Strawberry Me Career and get 50% off your first coaching session. That's Strawberry Me slash Career.

Dan Snow (51:36)

Following the Soviet victory at Stalingrad, Soviet forces advanced rapidly. They'd retaken swathes of land and cities, including places like Kursk. The Germans had eventually halted the Soviet advance with a series of Desperate counterattacks and the front had stabilized. By March 1943, however, a large bulge was left projecting into the German line. Both sides knew that a clash here was inevitable. Hitler hoped to pinch off the bulge and destroy the Soviet forces within it, which then would forestall a Soviet summer offensive. On the other hand, Stalin believed the enemy was on the back foot and wanted to switch back to the offensive. Zhukov urged caution. He argued that they should let the Germans attack, be drawn into a trap with potentially devastating consequences.

Jeffrey Roberts (52:28)

The Kursk battle was the Germans last major offensive battle of the Soviet German war. And the Soviets, Zhukov, they saw it coming in a way. It was kind of obvious that the Germans would launch a big attack in the Kursk area. So the basic plan was to actually. To defend to Attrit. Yeah, to wage a war of attrition in the Kursk area against the Germans. And how he worn down the Germans to launch a series of counteroffensives campaigns. Right. And that's exactly what happened. The German attack and the Kursadian failed. They suffered huge casualties. And the Soviets were able to launch a series of offensive operations. One of the most important of which was, and this is the one that Zhukov was centrally involved in as coordinator of the fronts, was an offensive into Ukraine. So following the Kursk battle, there's a year long battle which the Soviets fight to expel the Germans from Ukraine. And Zhukov's very much involved in that battle, essentially involved in recapturing Kyiv in November 1943. So there's this huge battle for Ukraine in 1943, 1944, and it's one of the main focuses of Zhukov's activities in

Dan Snow (53:40)

that period after Kursk. It's clear that the Allies are going to win the second war. It's clear that the Soviets are going to liberate their own country and indeed push into much of Eastern and central Europe. What's his thinking now in terms of strategy, in terms of the operational plan? Is it just keep up the tempo operations, keep punching the Germans, keep them off balance or hay And Stalin hoping to gobble up as much of Europe as possible. What do you think's going through his head now? From late 43 onwards, he very much

Jeffrey Roberts (54:10)

focused on defeating the Germans on reaching Berlin. That's his focus. So, okay, so you have the curse battle in the summer of 1943. The next big color operation campaign starts in summer of 1944, June 1944. Famous Operation Bagration, which is an operation against Army Group Center. And the aim of that operation is to Liberate Belorussia from German occupation and to defeat. Destroy Army Group Center. Right. One of the main directions of that Operation Bagration was towards Warsaw, into Poland and into Warsaw. And that's a hugely successful operation. So by the end of July, the Red army is on the outskirts of Warsaw. But here's the thing. For Zhukov, Warsaw was a secondary objective. Right. Zhukov argued in favor of focusing on entry into German territory in East Prussia. His focus is very much on the invasion of German territory. He thinks that Warsaw and Poland, that can wait. It's getting into Germany is what he wants to do. But he's overruled. The Soviet leadership thinks that actually it'll be easier to advance through Poland to Germany rather than to do it through East Brussels. So that's the question. Zhukov is focused on getting to Germany, invading Germany, capturing Berlin. That's Zhukov's focus.

Dan Snow (55:37)

Zhukov had led campaigns that had utterly shattered the Wehrmacht and Germany's allies. By the spring of 1945, Soviet armies were now deep into the Third Reich and were marching inexorably towards Berlin. Zhukov would finally get his chance to strike at the very heart of the fascist beast.

Jeffrey Roberts (55:58)

So actually, the last great Soviet military operation of the Second World War is the operation which Zhukov captures Warsaw and then heads towards Berlin. In fact, the aim of the operation was to capture Berlin by February 1945. That was the strategic goal. And indeed, Zhukov's view at the time was that his forces were capable of capturing Berlin as early as February or maybe March 1945. The problem was the danger was, were they capable of holding on to Berlin, having captured it? Yeah, okay, the Germans were down, but they weren't out. Right. They still had considerable forces on hand in the Berlin area. There were lots of, like, dangers of German localized German counterattacks, which could do a lot of damage to Soviet forces heading towards Berlin. So in the end, the decision was taken, and I think Zhukov was part of this decision was to. To halt the advance on Berlin. This is in, you know, February 1945, with a view to resuming it later on in the year. And of course, that what happens is that the Soviet advance on Berlin is resumed in April 1945. The main thrust of that advance was conducted by the first Belarusian Front. And the commander of the First Belarusian Front was Zhukov. And it was Stalin who decided to give Zhukov this command and this mission of capturing Berlin, which was kind of, like, obvious in a way, natural, because, of course, you know, Zhukov was Stalin's deputy supreme Commander Zhukov was Stalin's general. So it was only natural that Stalin would actually assign Zhukov this final mission. Wartime mission of Capturing Berlin.

Dan Snow (57:48)

On 16 April 1945, the Soviet assault on Berlin began. The city was soon encircled. Soviet forces began to advance through the shattered cityscape itself. After days of desperate fighting amongst the smash ruins of the Nazi capital, on 2 May 1945, the last German forces in the city surrendered. Hitler was dead. Nazi Germany was utterly defeated. Days later, on the 8th of May, the formal surrender of Nazi Germany was signed in Berlin, overseen by Marshal Zhukov, who signed the decree on behalf of the Soviet Union. Zhukov was at the zenith of his career. In the Soviet Union. When Stalin's your boss, success means danger. During the war, Zhukov had shown total loyalty to Stalin. He'd brought him victory after victory. He'd walk the tightrope of keeping on the right side of this mercurial leader. But with the laurels of victory being heaped upon Zhukov's head, Stalin's suspicions of him only grew. Some said that Stalin even feared his vaunted marshal.

Jeffrey Roberts (59:02)

I think we started with scare of Zhukov, certainly suspicious. But then Stalin was suspicious of everyone. Zhukov has this reputation of being the only one among Stalin's generals being willing to stand up to Stalin, to speak his mind. And I think there is something to that reputation. But in the end, Zhukov is subordinate. It is a partnership. But in this partnership, Stalin is the dominant partnership. And that's true throughout the whole war. Of course, what happens at the end of the war is that Stalin goes very, I wouldn't say suspicious. He gets very irritated with Zhukov because he thinks Zhukov is garnering too much of the glory of the victory in the great patriot war. He thinks that Zhukov is claiming too much credit for the great military feats of the war. He thinks that Stalin himself, he should get more credit. Then Zhukov seems to be. Stalin falls out with Zhukov just after the work. In June 1945, there's this victory parade in Red Square. Yeah. And Zhukov is the one who takes the salute at this victory. Blake. Stalin reviews the plague from on top of the Lenin mausoleum. But Zhukova takes the slew. And then Zhukov finishes taking the salute. He's on a horse line. And then he goes up, he makes this speech. And then there's this parade of the various representatives, the various Soviet armed forces formation, right? And as part of that part, when the high points of that parade is when 200 Nazi banners are Piled up against the Kremlin wall. Well, there's a very interesting eyewitness report of that parade. It's by Kathleen Harriman, who was the daughter of the American ambassador in Moscow this time, Avroh Aramana. So she's at the parade. Right. And what she witnesses and she writes this is in a letter a couple of days after the parade. What she sees is these banners being piled up against Zhukov's feet, at Zhukov's feet. That's the way she sees that scene being enacted. And that's not what you see when you see the Soviet newsreel event. I don't know, but I have a feeling that that moment might be the moment when Stalin's relationship or attitude towards Zhukov begins to sour. Okay. And that leads eventually to Zhukov being demoted and sent off to regional commands after war. But a couple of points about that, about Zhukov's post war banishment, if you like the first place, that Zhukov never blamed Stalin for what happened to him. He didn't blame Stalin. He thought that Stalin was misled by people around him. Right. And second thing is Zhukov's like banishment and punishment is alienation from Stalin or distancing from Stalin is actually quite short lived. By the late 1940s, when Stalin is still alive, Zhukov is being rehabilitated. He's coming back into the fold at the very top levels. In fact, Zhukov's opinion was that if Stalin hadn't have died, what he did in March 1953, Stalin was going to appoint him Minister of Defence. So one shouldn't exaggerate the extent of Stalin's falling out with Zhukov after the war. Zhukov's punishment by Stalin was, believe me, was very, very mild compared to the Paris one that was meted out to other Soviet generals who were seen to be disloyal or insubordinate or something like that.

Dan Snow (62:19)

In March 1953, Stalin suffered a massive stroke and died. His passing would provide Zhukov with a moment of rebirth and an opportunity to step out of the wilderness as the Soviet Union lunged into a leadership crisis. This time Zhukov would act to defend his nation against the possibility of a new era of terrorism from within.

Jeffrey Roberts (62:42)

So after Stalin dies, Zhukov becomes Deputy Defense Minister. And very early on in that role, he plays a very kind of dramatic role in the arrest of Barrier Levrenti Barrier, the Soviet security chief, Right. Who's seen us by the other Soviet leaders as being a threat, as being a new Stalin, a new dictator. Right. So they decide to arrest Barrier. And Zhukov is the main person who's deputed to actually carry out arrests, physical arrest. They lure Barrier to a meeting and then Zhukov enters the meeting with high ranking Soviet officers and he grabs hold of Barrier and he arrests him. Of course, a few months later, Barrier is executed. But then a couple of years later, Zhukov becomes the Minister of Defense. Yeah, and again, this is. We're talking about Zhukov's luck in service of his career. The reason he becomes Minister of defense in January 1955 is because the previous incumbent, Bulganin, had stepped aside to become the new Soviet Prime Minister. Because Khrushchev, the new party leader, had fallen out with Malenkov, who was the Prime Minister at the time. So Milenkov was ousted by Khrushchev. And then Bugany becomes new Prime Minister, which creates a vacancy for Zhukov to become the Minister of Defense. And as Minister of Defense, Zhukov develops into being a very hugely popular. He was always popular, but an even more popular figure in the Soviet Union. Problem is that creates Zhukov as a threat as far as Khrushchev's concerned. Khrushchev falls out with Zhukov and dismisses him as Minister of Defense and actually forces Zhukov to retire from the armed forces in 1958. Yeah, so he has this amazing life story in many ways. He has this amazing kind of like military career during the Second World War, but then he also had his hugely colorful post war political career as well.

Dan Snow (64:34)

Zhukov's popularity and prestige meant that once again he'd been pushed from the stage of national politics. Following his forced retirement, Zhukov lived quietly, writing his memoirs, spending time with his family and going on hunting and fishing trips. Old age and ill health eventually took their toll. And Georgy Zhukov, Marshal of the Soviet union, died in April 1974 at the age of 77 in the Kremlin hospital. This is a series about some of the great commanders of the Second World War. And by the close of the conflict, the nature of things meant that not just the Soviets, but all the allied armies had a raft of incredibly talented and successful leaders. How should we think about Zhukov? Is he the great genius of the Soviet war effort, or was he merely first among equals?

Jeffrey Roberts (65:25)

When I started writing my biography of Zhukov or started on the work on it, I was skeptical, right? As far as I was concerned, Zhukov was too much of a disciplinarian, too much of a kick ass commander, too vulgar. My preferred Soviet general in the Second World War was Rokossovsky, who I saw as being much more benign, much more intellectual. Right. Much more caring about his truth. But during the course of writing the Broccoli, my perspective changed, actually. I got more sympathetic towards Zhukov as I went along, which is the kind of thing that I think tends to happen to biographers. So my disdain for his command style was balanced by my actual observation of all these qualities as a general and as a commander in these amazingly kind of like, complex and challenging, stressful conditions. It was just quite incredible to observe Zhukov in action. I think he's probably first among equals. He's probably the best. Very much first among equals. Certainly, you know, in Soviet times, also in contemporary Russia, Zhukov would be mostly considered to be the top Soviet general of the Second World War. And there are lots of people myself and include would say he has a good claim to be the top general of the whole Second World World War, the greatest general of the Second World War, because of, of what he did, the success. Okay, he made mistakes. It was very costly. But ultimately, you know, he won or was instrumental in winning. The architect of victory in the greatest war in human history. It's very, very hard to argue against that. Yeah, if you're, like, handing out the accolades as to who the greatest general is, you know, so the aesthetist biographer. Well, I'm examining very, very close on what he's doing on a day by day basis, how he's behaving, what he's saying, plans and, okay, plans go wrong and mistakes are made. But, yeah, he's very, very impressive character to follow his action in detail. So in the end, I'm one of those who have come around to view that Zhukov was certainly the greatest Soviet general of the Second World War and possibly the greatest ally general of the Second World War as well.

Dan Snow (67:24)

Marshal Zhukov is surely the embodiment of the ultimate Soviet soldier. Humble peasant beginnings, talent, discipline, drive, coolness under pressure, and importantly, unflinching loyalty. They all saw him ascend the very pinnacle of military command. He was also, like all great commanders, I cannot overstate this, lucky he was in the right place at the right time. He won a victory at Khalkhin Gol as many of his comrades were struggling in the forests of Finland. Stalin's purge took the lives of thousands, but presented him with opportunities for advancement. Zhukov was a commander forged in the white heat of military disaster. The Soviet Union needed victory. He gave it to them. He imposed order on the most confusing and complex battlefields. He faced down the gravest crisis and turned it into victory. His reputation as the savior of Moscow in 1941 was reinforced by the campaigns he led at Stalingrad and Kursk, and later he achieved decisive victories from there. He expelled German forces from Ukraine and led the final assault on Berlin in 1945. He proved himself time and again. His success, though, was paid for in blood. The men who served under him suffered terribly. He could be ruthless. He was willing to pursue victory at the heaviest of prices, although by the brutal measure of the Eastern Front, he was no worse than any of his contemporaries. He wasn't just called upon on the battlefield. He was just as useful in a political emergency. Whether it was Stalin in the war years or Khrushchev during the political vacuum of the 1930s 50s, Zhukov was equal to the task, even if in the end it was that capability that proved too much for both Stalin and Khrushchev. Zhukov, I think, certainly has a claim to being the greatest Soviet general of the Second World War, possibly the greatest Allied general of the entire conflict. He was without a doubt instrumental in winning the greatest series of campaigns in human history. Well, that's it, folks. Huge thanks to today's brilliant guest, Geoffrey Roberts Meristus professor of History at University College, Cork. His biography, Stalin's the Life of Georgy Zhukov, is essential reading. He's just written another book. His latest work is Wartime Letters, Kathleen Harriman. Now, they are really interesting and they include that fascinating eyewitness account of the victory parade which I described at the start of the episode. This was the fifth in a Our Commanders series. Next Monday brings us up to the final episode where we're going to wrap up the series by discussing the best of the rest, the ones who didn't get a look in. Who are the other Second World War commanders that you think should be on the list? Who have we missed out? To find out, make sure you hit follow in your podcast player right now so you don't miss a thing. Thank you so much for listening,

Jeffrey Roberts (70:31)

Foreign.

Hayden (70:45)

Howdy ho, and welcome to Fantasy Fan Fellas. I'm Hayden, producer of the Fantasy Fangirls podcast and your resident lover of all things Sanderson.

Stephen (70:52)

And I'm Stephen, your bookish Internet goofball, but you can call me the Smash Daddy.

Hayden (70:57)

And we are currently deep diving Brandon Sanderson's fantasy epic Mistborn. But here's the catch. Steven here has not read Mistborn before.

Stephen (71:05)

That's right.

Jeffrey Roberts (71:06)

Hey.

Stephen (71:06)

Hey. So each week you'll get my unfiltered raw reactions to every single chapter.

Hayden (71:10)

And along the way, we'll do character deep dives, magic explainers, and Steven will even try to guess what's next. Spoiler alert. He'll be wrong.

Stephen (71:17)

News flash. I'm never wrong. Episodes come out every Wednesday, and you can find Fantasy fan fellows wherever you get your podcast.

Dan Snow (71:24)

Podcasts Podcast Advertising works and with ACAS Ads Academy, you'll learn exactly how Our free On demand courses are built from

Jeffrey Roberts (71:32)

more than a decade of podcasting experience,

Dan Snow (71:34)

giving you practical tools to create campaigns that drive results. Complete the course and you'll earn a certification that proves your skills in one of the fastest growing channels in media. Get started today at go.acast.com academy. Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard iii. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historical historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyit.com subscribe.