Dan Snow’s History Hit

Episode: The Germans Who Rebelled Against the Nazis

Date: October 14, 2025

Brief Overview

In this compelling episode, Dan Snow is joined by journalist and author Jonathan Freedland to uncover the powerful yet tragic story of elite Germans who dared to resist Hitler from within Nazi Germany. Centering on the 1943 "Charlottenburg soiree"—a covert gathering of upper-crust Germans plotting a path beyond Hitler—the conversation explores their motives, moral struggles, acts of courage, and the terrible price they ultimately paid after being betrayed by one of their own. The discussion draws on themes from Freedland’s new book, "The Traitors: The Rebels Against the Nazis and the Spy Who Betrayed Them," and ultimately asks why so few people resist tyranny, and what lessons remain for us today.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The 1943 Charlottenburg Soiree

• Timestamps: [02:03–05:24]
• Backdrop: September 10, 1943. The war is turning against Germany; Kursk has failed, Italy is switching sides.
• Event: At an apartment in Berlin, nine influential Germans, including aristocrats, civil servants, and intellectuals, convene at the home of Elisabeth von Thadden under the cover of her sister’s 50th birthday.
• Purpose: Ostensibly social but in truth a secret meeting to discuss how Germany could escape further disaster, remove Hitler, and prepare for an eventual democratic rebirth.
• Atmosphere: Steeped in anxiety, hope, and the ever-present fear of being discovered—unbeknownst to them, a traitor is present.

2. Who Were the Rebels? Motives, Backgrounds, and Flaws

• Timestamps: [05:42–08:04]
• Social Standing: Nearly all were establishment conservatives—aristocrats, diplomats, high society women, and civil servants. Not the left-wing or social outsiders Hitler originally targeted.
• Evolving Resistance: Some were initially sympathetic to Hitler, others saw his danger from the start. Their opposition became a moral imperative as the regime’s crimes mounted.
• Quote:
  “Some of them…initially thought, well…Germany has been in decline. She was a conservative nationalist…But their awareness…the threat Nazism posed, it came at different stages.”
  —Jonathan Freedland [08:04]

3. Nature & Actions of Their Resistance

• Timestamps: [09:49–13:05]
• Moral vs. Pragmatic: Their resistance wasn’t merely about the shifting military tide; it was deeply rooted in outrage at Nazi crimes, especially the persecution of Jews.
• Direct Acts:
  • A countess sheltered up to 20 Jews at a time, risking her life daily.
  • Members supplied forged papers and food, coordinated escape routes, and spread verified information to foreign diplomats.
• Quote:
  “There are people alive now who wouldn’t be alive if their…grandparents weren’t saved by those acts. They required enormous bravery.”
  —Jonathan Freedland [17:13]

4. The Salon’s Discussions: Planning for Post-Hitler Germany

• Timestamps: [13:05–16:59]
• What They Talked About: Less about direct violence, more about preparing for the end of Nazi rule, arranging humanitarian aid, and diplomatic contacts for postwar recovery.
• Naïveté & Agency: Dan notes their discussions, while brave, may have been out-of-touch with realities on the ground.
• Links to Wider Plots: Some were loosely connected to the later Stauffenberg (July 20) bomb plot, but most focused on diplomacy, relief, and moral solidarity.
• Quote:
  “In small gestures…they made their opposition to this regime known. If everyone had done that…would the obedience Hitler relied on have begun to fracture?”
  —Jonathan Freedland [20:33]

5. Betrayal and Gestapo Repression

• Timestamps: [23:46–25:13]
• The Betrayal: Unknowingly, one of the attendees was a Gestapo informant. All would be arrested or murdered within a year.
• Gestapo Pursuit: Their pursuer, Leo Lange, was not only a detective but a pivotal architect of the Holocaust, responsible for mass murders by gas and the first death camp at Chelmno.
• Quote:
  “He really has a claim to be one of the top…Nazis guilty of the Holocaust itself…he is not an incidental figure in the Final Solution.”
  —Jonathan Freedland [30:02]

6. Why Did People Inform on Each Other in Nazi Germany?

• Timestamps: [25:13–29:44]
• Motives: Financial rewards, avoidance of military service, personal advancement, paranoia, and a desire to redirect suspicion from oneself.
• Atmosphere: An epidemic of distrust—neighbors, colleagues, even family members turned against one another.
• Quote:
  “The most frequent motive…was to get the finger of suspicion pointed away from you. So…everyone was spying on everyone else.”
  —Jonathan Freedland [29:05]

7. Human Nature, Courage, and Who Resists

• Timestamps: [35:18–41:06]
• Few Resist: Only about 5% of Germans took any stand; most stayed silent out of self-preservation.
• What Set the Resisters Apart:
  • Disproportionate number were women, often with strong, supportive fathers who gave them self-confidence.
  • Many were devoutly religious or believed in a higher authority than the Nazi state.
  • A kind of aristocratic self-assurance sometimes fueled their willingness to oppose Hitler.
• Quote:
  “Most of us would not [resist]. And it’s a hard thing to realize about yourself.…What these people did was so exceptional.”
  —Jonathan Freedland [35:41]

8. Lessons for Today: Recognizing the Danger of Waiting

• Timestamps: [41:06–43:17]
• Act Early: Freedland argues, and Dan agrees, that the lesson is to "move fast"—waiting allows authoritarianism to take root before resistance is possible.
• Relevance: As liberal democracy retreats around the world, don’t count on the slow, reasonable response. Resist early and decisively.
• Quote:
  “The lesson I take away from it is: move fast…. Assume the worst and act on that basis rather than hoping for the best.”
  —Jonathan Freedland [41:28]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Human Risk:
  “On a single night, there could be upwards of 20 people [Jews] hidden in silence in [the countess’s] apartment.” —Jonathan Freedland [10:19]
• On Moral Resistance:
  “They are convinced that Adolf Hitler is immoral, for many of them, unchristian…. a huge betrayal of what Germany should represent.” —Freedland [08:04]
• On Systemic Paranoia:
  “…you could never be sure who was hearing you at any moment… wife complains she cannot even speak to her own husband…” —Freedland [29:44]
• On Modern Warnings:
  “If you’re worried about your ability to resist when your life is on the line, go harder earlier.” —Dan Snow [41:06]

Important Segments & Timestamps

• [02:03] The 1943 Berlin gathering and secret resistance context
• [05:44 – 08:04] Who these elite German resistors were
• [09:49 – 13:05] How and why they resisted the Nazis
• [13:05 – 16:59] Planning for the post-Hitler future
• [17:13 – 20:55] The value of “small” acts of resistance
• [23:46 – 25:13] The betrayal and Gestapo’s leading role in repression
• [30:02 – 33:26] The real horrors behind Leo Lange and the Final Solution
• [35:18 – 41:06] Who resists tyrannical regimes—and why most don’t
• [41:06 – 43:17] Lessons for modern threats to democracy

Tone and Style

The conversation is urgent, reflective, nuanced, and at times chilling. Dan Snow poses questions with both historical acumen and personal humility; Jonathan Freedland responds with hard-won insight, blending narrative detail with moral analysis. There’s a consistent undercurrent of admiration for the courage of the few, and a warning to the present about the dangers of complacency.

Closing Reflection

This episode does more than chronicle a forgotten chapter of resistance; it asks us to measure ourselves against history’s hardest test. Through the voices of Snow and Freedland, listeners are left with admiration for those who risked everything, and an uneasy awareness that history’s patterns may yet repeat—unless vigilance and courage prevail.