Karl Chin (3:45)

Thank you Dan for inviting me.

Dan Snow (3:47)

Great to have you back on the pod. You're one of the best in the business. Tell me about, tell me about this amazing, dynamic, crazy city that was Birmingham in the 90s, 19th century at the height of that industrial Revolution.

Karl Chin (3:58)

Birmingham at the height of the Industrial revolution, Dan, was the city of a thousand trades. It's a title we grew up with. We were so proud of you. Name it, Birmingham made it. Lots of small metal goods, buttons, gardens, obviously jewelry. But there was, the brass trade was very important in Birmingham. So brass bedsteads, brass fittings for all over the home. And towards the end of the 19th century those older trades were slowly declining, but new trades were coming in. So from the gun trade, tubes.

Dan Snow (4:33)

Yes.

Karl Chin (4:34)

Mean you can use a tube making machine to move into making bicycles.

Dan Snow (4:39)

Nice.

Karl Chin (4:39)

So that's why like firms like the Birmingham Small Arms moved in eventually to motorbikes.

Dan Snow (4:44)

That's crazy, isn't it?

Karl Chin (4:45)

And so you've got this developing new industries at the end of the 19th century. You've got lots of skilled workers and semi skilled workers are doing well and better quality tunnel back houses are being built for them. So those are houses that in a long terrace to take up as little space as possible, they tunnel back. So you've got a bedroom and a room downstairs, you've got another bedroom on that level and you've got the back room. Then you've got the backyard and the house tunnels back into the backyard. So that's where you get lots of terracing like in Spark Hill, Bournebrook and places like that. But what is overlooked too often is that 200,000 Brummies, nearly half the population, lived in a ring of poverty in badly built, Jerry built, decaying, insanitary back to back houses. And it's in those districts, Dan, the districts of the poor who are already suffering hardships. Ill health, early deaths, bad pay, irregular work. It's in those districts that the reign of the Peaky Blinders impacted most negatively

Dan Snow (5:57)

and just on those in those communities. So any shift in economic fortunes, they're feeling the fallout straight away. So you meant, you said irregular work. When times are good, they've got work.

Karl Chin (6:05)

Yeah. So very similar to what you find in much of the old East End of London, south London, in the docks of Liverpool, you've got lots of irregular work. So yeah, things are going well. There's lots of laborers, they're unskilled. But when things. There's a bit of a recession or a downturn in trade, you can't get work in a factory or on the building sites. Then what we also forget, just like in the East End of London, Manchester, you've got lots of street traders. They are really struggling because what are you going to sell when you're pushing a banner around the streets when it's pouring the rain? So what we see in the older parts of Birmingham, I won't use the phrase inner city because that's much more a modern phrase. Let's call it the central areas, the central neighborhoods. What you see is lots of unskilled men and their families, lots of women having to work. There is factory work in Birmingham for women. That's better than low paid work in going out charring, cleaning or taking in washing for the better off. So what you find in the factories in Birmingham and the small workshops is that single women or young married women with no kids or one or two kids are going to work in the factories because relatively it's better paid. Not as well paid as the men, but it's better paid than going out charring, taking in washing or what used to do as well. A lot of the poor women in Birmingham there would card buttons. So in the old days buttons would be put onto a card to be sold in a little shop and you buy one at a time.

Dan Snow (7:39)

Okay. They'd press them into the card.

Karl Chin (7:41)

Yes, they would get them into the card or hooks and eyes.

Dan Snow (7:44)

Wow.

Karl Chin (7:45)

So there's a lot of poverty, there's irregular work, there's bad housing, there's youngsters are working from the. In the 1860s, 70s and into really the early 80s, from the ages of six, seven and eight, workshops and factories. It starts to change in the 80s. But what you've also got when schooling becomes compulsory is that youngsters are wagon eaters. We would say in Birmingham, not going to school. My granddad for example, my Granddad Chinborn in 1892 would sell newspapers, go around the streets flogging newspapers to make a hate me. And with that hapney, he and the other poor kids would go to a, an eating house in the bullring and they would have a hate me dip. They'd have the meat sides of beef over the gas heated, going round and round on a spit and they would have a hate me, a hate me thick piece of bread dipped in the fat. That was their tea.

Dan Snow (8:40)

Wow, he must have, they must have dreamt about selling those papers.

Karl Chin (8:43)

It was, it was hard days. And not just in Birmingham, Dan. This, this is the lived experience of the urban poor of Sheffield, of Leeds, of Glasgow, of Dublin, of Birmingham, elsewhere.

Dan Snow (8:54)

And, and why do we hear about the kind of lawless behavior, I mean the, the riots of the 60s. And is, what is it just that, is it just that concentration of, of poverty or what, what are the politics doing?

Karl Chin (9:05)

So what we've got is a situation where the poor are, nobody cares about them, Dan. The elite of Birmingham. Birmingham's praised as the best governor city

Dan Snow (9:15)

in the world on the Chamberlain, Joseph Chamberlain.

Karl Chin (9:17)

It wasn't for the former. I bet it wasn't because he decided his crowning glory was Corporation Street. He would build this Parisian style boulevard that would sweep through a swathe of badly built housing and have this shopping road that would reflect Birmingham status as a metropolis of the Midlands. But 5,000 poor people lost their homes, Dan, for that, for that status symbol. And they were pushed into the surrounding neighbourhoods. So the landlords like that, there's a higher demand, the rents go up, it's even worse. So gets even worse, they have to take in lodgers. Tiny two bedroomed houses, probably only as big as this room that we're sitting in now. And then TB spreads other communicable diseases. So when we see Birmingham as a rioter city, it wasn't necessarily riotous, it was violent. It was one of the most violent cities in Great Britain. However, there were riots and the rise of the back street gangs can be seen tied in to political rioting in the late 1860s. I've got the gang starting in 1868. That's the earliest references I've got to the Bar street gang. The park street gang, which went on for a generation or more. There's three factors at work here, Dan. First of all, the middle class, who are still living in some numbers around the old parts of Birmingham, around the bullring, are putting pressure on the police to put down the gatherings of young men on a Sunday, right? They've got a day off, A day off. They're gathering on great waste ground, they're playing rough sports, they're swearing and they're gambling. Pitch and toss, they're throwing coins at a mark, pitching them. Whoever gets them nearest tosses them up. They don't like this, the middle class.

Dan Snow (11:06)

It's the one bit of relief they're getting all week, these lads, that's all.

Karl Chin (11:08)

It's his dad.

Dan Snow (11:09)

And the middle class are now deciding

Karl Chin (11:10)

that they don't like because they're swearing and they're abusing the Lord's day, drinking alcohol. So they put pressure on the police for a crusade against pigeon toss. That leads to a reaction. Now that reaction is young men, teenage lads and young men gathering in gangs, street gangs. At the same time as his crusade, there's a vile, horrible Protestant preacher who had been a Catholic called William Murphy, sets up his tabernacle in Birmingham, so called Prayer Place. Basically all he did was say vile, filthy things about the Pope and nuns to antagonize the local Irish. He always set up his tabernacle. He travels around the country, he sets it up next to an Irish district, right? Park street, where Selfridges now overlooks, was the site of a terrible ethnic riot. And on the first day, the Irish attacked his tabernacle. He hired gangs to protect him. There were too many Irish. The next day, a huge English mobile attack. The Irish. So, 1867, this happens, the crusade against pitch and toss happening at the same time, there's a pitch and toss site in park street and they form an Irish Catholic gang for the two reasons. One, the attack of the police. Two, the attack of the police on them as Irish Catholics. At the same time, better off. Working class men get the vote, don't they, in the late 1860s. Now the working class matter, so they want that vote. And what I found is immediately in the late 1860s and thenceforth, the Liberals and Conservatives in Birmingham are hiring gangs to disrupt each other's meetings. Really, the worst one down was in 1884. Birmingham was dominated by Chamberlain and the Liberals.

Dan Snow (12:53)

Yes.

Karl Chin (12:54)

Lord Randolph Churchill. RINGER bell yeah.

Dan Snow (12:56)

Winston's dad comes to Birmingham.

Karl Chin (12:59)

He was standing as a Conservative. He's bearding the lion in his den. Chamberlain and he has a big meeting in what is now Villa park, which was called the Lower Grounds. He hired, well, the local Conservatives hire gangs to protect them really. But the Liberals march through the streets with drums and music playing and they go in the pubs and they get the gang leaders. There's a massive riot, the Ashton riot of 1884. It's so bad that they smash up the meeting. It's so bad that Churchill in Parliament and it's recorded in Hansard names the Lent Street Gang, the Harding Street Gang and the Bar Street Gang. Chamberlain's oppos pay people to say, no, we weren't paid by the Liberals, we weren't involved. Gets thrown out of Parliament. He gets allowed, there's a vote against Churchill, but it gets defeated. Few months later, I've discovered they were paying these people, the Liberals were paying these people to exonerate Chamberlain and his men. So you've got these three factors coming together in the late 1860s. The politicians using gangs, Murphy and his riot, enabling the gangs as another spark, and the crusade against pigeon toss. And those early gangs, the park street gang, the Milk Street Gang, where I took you for a walk.

Dan Snow (14:23)

Yes.

Karl Chin (14:24)

The Bar street gang, Barford Street Gang. They're all within a few hundred yards of each other. They fight each other and they fight each other until the early 20th century.

Dan Snow (14:35)

You're listening to Dan Snow's history. We're going to be back after this break. This episode is brought to you by Best Western Hotels and Resorts. Spring break isn't what it used to be and honestly, that's a good thing. These days it's less about chaos and crowds and more about taking a real breather. A chance to explore somewhere new, revisit somewhere familiar, or just slow down for a few days without over planning it to death. That's why I like Best Western for spring travel. It's easy and perfect for the kind of getaway that actually leaves you refreshed. Whether it's a road trip or a quiet city stay, it just works. And right now, they're making it even better. This spring, stay three nights and you'll get a $50 Best Western gift card. No fuss, no pressure, just a well earned break that feels worth it. Life's a trip. Make the most of it. At Best Western, visit Best Western.com for complete terms and conditions.

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Dan Snow (17:06)

Where do we get the. Where do we get the the name Peaky Blinders from?

Karl Chin (17:09)

So originally they're just called street ruffians. And then from 1872, the term slogger. A slogger is somebody that belongs to a slogan gang. It's from the pugilistic term to slog to hit with a fierce blow. From 1890, a new term comes in. Now it's called Peaky Blinders. It's not one gang as we see in the series Dan, in one district with one family at the heart of it. Peaky Blinders is the generic term for the backstreet thugs of Birmingham, okay, Belonging to numerous slugging gangs. So in Manchester and Salford, they're called Scotland. They belong to Scotland. Gangs in London in Clerkenwell, Kings Cross in the East End, in Bethnal Green and Spitalfields and Whitechapel in South London. Around the elephants, they're known as street ruffians. Until 1898 and a really violent bank holiday Monday in August and a new term comes into the English language. Hooligan.

Dan Snow (18:08)

Hooligans. And they begin in London, do they?

Karl Chin (18:10)

Yeah, but it's the same kind of phenomenon. Birmingham's hooligans are the Peaky Blinders come sloggers. Manchester's are the Scotlands. In Liverpool they're the corner boys. It's the same phenomenon. So you've got these numerous backstreet gangs and at first they have no fashion. So what they've got around the neck is just the one thing called a daf. It's a silk type scarf, Daniel, that's wrapped around the neck and if it's knotted it's called a choker. In Manchester, the Scotlands wear woolen mufflers. In Birmingham, school scarves. But then in 1819 I found the very first reference to this new fashion. January 1890, new fashion comes in for the sluggers. They're wearing bell bottom trousers, tight to the knee and wide around the bottom, 22 inches. They've still got the daffodil, but they're now wearing a hat called a billycock. It's the working man's bowler. Okay. And they have a skinhead haircut, except they've got a quiff. I've got photos of these from the West Midlands Police Museum and they've got this quiff, they like to show off the quiff. So they wet the brim of the billycock, hold it over a fire and turn the front into like a funnel and they wear it over their eye. They pull it over one eye. So what's the brim doing to that eye?

Dan Snow (19:33)

It's hiding.

Karl Chin (19:34)

It's hiding. It's blinding it.

Dan Snow (19:36)

Oh, it's blinding it. That's nice.

Karl Chin (19:37)

So then when the flat cap comes in, they do the same. So the term peaky blinder, Dan, is a term about a fashion. It's nothing to do with the belief that disposable safety razor blades were stitched into the peak of a. A flat cap. Now actually, I managed to have a flat cap with me here and may I ask you to put it on? It's probably a little bit small because it fits my head. Lovely. So now me and you are going to have in the Birmingham language, a bust up.

Dan Snow (20:10)

Okay?

Karl Chin (20:11)

A fight. All right, all right. You're going to take your flat cap off now and slash me. What have you done to your fingers?

Dan Snow (20:17)

I've just cut my fingers.

Karl Chin (20:18)

Correct.

Dan Snow (20:18)

That's what I've always wondered.

Karl Chin (20:19)

Yeah. Now feel the back. It's flat, it's floppy in it.

Dan Snow (20:22)

Yeah.

Karl Chin (20:23)

So let me give you a chance. We're gonna have a bust up and I'm gonna go, Dan, I'm gonna slash you In a minute. But just wait a bit. By the time I fold it. What have you done to me? I've.

Dan Snow (20:34)

I've beat you up.

Karl Chin (20:34)

You put me under.

Dan Snow (20:36)

Yeah.

Karl Chin (20:36)

So one, it's not feasible. Two, it never happened. I've gone through hundreds of court cases, newspaper articles, and back in the early 80s, Dan, when I first wrote about the real Peaky Blinders. So this is a 40 year old. Yeah, research that I've been on. When I first wrote about them, I interviewed old men that knew Peaky Blinders. They told me exactly the thing, that they would pull that peak of the cap over one eye. So it didn't happen. It's not feasible. And the first hats they wore were not flat caps, they were Billy Cox. And finally, disposable safety razor blades were not patented by King Gillette until the early 20th century. They were not sold in any great numbers in England till the First World War. And during the First World War, the British tommies were issued with cutthroat razors.

Dan Snow (21:25)

Right.

Karl Chin (21:25)

And they were too expensive. The disposables. They were at 37 shillings and sixpence for five best Sheffield steel. A poor man in Birmingham in the East End would be lucky to earn 17 shillings and sixpence a week.

Dan Snow (21:38)

So that's. Okay. So it's not come from that.

Karl Chin (21:40)

It's not. It's a fact. It's a myth that grew up from the late 30s in newspapers from outside Birmingham. And you think of the name Dan, it's infused with dread and violence. Peaky Blinders, it's a good name. I'd heard about it growing up and the story I was told was they slashed the forehead, hence blood went in the eyes. In the series it say slash the eyes, but there's a problem there, the bridge of the nose. And it's just a myth.

Dan Snow (22:04)

Okay, so why were they called it?

Karl Chin (22:06)

They were called it because they pulled the peak over the eye and then

Dan Snow (22:10)

one eye is named Blind because.

Karl Chin (22:11)

Yes, it's covered, it's blinded.

Dan Snow (22:13)

Okay. And that was the fashion.

Karl Chin (22:13)

Peaky Blind. Just a fashion statement. But that doesn't neglect the fact that they were brutal men.

Dan Snow (22:19)

Well, I was gonna say. You're not gonna now tell me that they were just, you know, gathering for prayer meetings.

Karl Chin (22:24)

They weren't gathering for prayer. In fact, they hated the Salvation army and attacked the Salvation army. Women in particular, the sluggers. Like the Scotlands of Manchester and Salford, the Corner boys of Liverpool, what became known as the hooligans of London. They preyed upon the poor amongst whom they Lived. That's their worst trait for me. They baited the police. We can talk about that. Three policemen were killed. Numerous policemen were maimed and had to leave the force. They battled each other viciously and there were killings and maimings of gang members by other gangs. But the worst thing they did, Dan, was they bullied the hard working, decent poor amongst whom they lived. And it was known as the Reign of the Ruffians, the reign of the Peaky Blinders.

Dan Snow (23:12)

Wow. Whatever their beginnings, they go into what we might call organized crime.

Karl Chin (23:16)

No, they don't. And that's again a misconception. These are backstreet gangs. Their aim is violence in a. And I'm not going to excuse them, but we need to understand them. And that's what really I focused on very much in, in my research is what led these men to become so violent. We're living, they're living in a very hard world. Badly built housing, insanity conditions. They have no parks or recreation grounds, there's no gardens. The street is their playground and the street belongs to them. It's the only thing that they own. And the other, the reason they can own the street is because of these. They're harder than the next street. So that's why the street gangs emerge. Some of the gang members are just hard men who work hard and don't commit crime. Many of them are not though. They are petty thieves. We say petty thieves. It's not petty for the people who are on the receiving end, but in terms of the English law, it's petty. They're violent, they're abusive, they're racist and there's some of them are sexual predators and horrible, horrible sexually assaulting men. So what we've got is the development of these gangs. Yes, they might go into a pub and they'll order a round of drinks and they refuse to pay. And if the gaffer, the publican asks them for money, they'll smash the pub up into the 1880s and early 1890s for an assault on a copper, a bad assault on a policeman. They could get fined 40 shillings. It's a lot of money when you're only earning half that or less than half that. So what they do, they have a whip round. But who's paying for the whip round? The little shopkeepers, the publicans, the beer house keepers. So that's seen as petty crime. It's not for them who are suffering

Dan Snow (25:09)

by the 80, you've always told me by the 1890s, Birmingham, it's like Gotham City and Batman. There's A new. There's a new cop in town.

Karl Chin (25:16)

Yeah, you're right. 1899, new cop comes in. Charles Horton Rafter. He's a Protestant from Belfast, but unlike Major Campbell in the series, he's not sectarian. He comes to Birmingham with a reference from an Irish Catholic nationalist mp.

Dan Snow (25:33)

Oh, interesting.

Karl Chin (25:34)

He's in the Royal Irish Constabulary, Dan, but he's seen as someone who's fair to both sides in the disturbances that are happening. He comes to Birmingham and his remit is to put down the Peaky Blinders. And he realizes that the Birmingham police are badly on demand, so he sets on a very fast recruitment campaign of young, fit men who have to be 5 foot 9 and a half and very soon 5 foot 10. They have physical training instruction. One of their instructions was a man called Sergeant Doughty. I met his son. I knew his son Stan. I used to drink with him in the Georgian Spa brook in the 1980s. He gave me a photo his dad gave me in his PT kit with the coppers. Years later, I realized this is a man that's training the police to fight the Peaky Blinders. Very rapid recruitment campaign. Now, once that's done, he sends them out into the streets two at a time. The Peaky Blinders are overwhelmingly small Brummies, five foot four, like my great grandfather Edward Derrick, who was a Peaky Blinder, five foot one, like Samuel Sheldon and many others. They take the fight to the streets. And Rafta, the story went in the Birmingham Police. For years after he died in the mid-30s, Rafter asked three things of his men. Can you read, can you write?

Dan Snow (27:01)

And can you fight?

Karl Chin (27:04)

And they had to fight. And again, what's happened, Dan? Over the last few years, rare memoirs have come to my attention by coppers who were retiring in the 20s. Said it was a battle on the streets. It doesn't end immediately. There's still some vicious attacks. There's a killing of a member of the Summerhill gang by one of the Camden street gang, the killing of P.C. gunter, the maiming of P.C. blinko. But by 1905, the Birmingham newspapers are saying the palmy days of the Peaky Blinders are over.

Dan Snow (27:38)

Really?

Karl Chin (27:39)

By 1910, they're writing about the Peaky Blinders in the past tense. 1915, the second year of the First World War, the Birmingham Mail writes, what's happened to the Peaky Blinders? Well, the police are pleased. They've gone. Where are they? Oh, they're either working and earning good money in the munitions factories or fighting at the front. And that's what happened to them? There were no peaky blinders in 1920s Birmingham because they'd either got killed in the First World War, maimed in the First World War, or they were aging.

Dan Snow (28:12)

And if you're a skilled industrial worker, you've done well.

Karl Chin (28:16)

You have. So don't forget, these men are all laborers, overwhelming. I've got a couple that are in skilled trades and they're earning good money in the missions. The problem is, after the first world war, there's no work for them. But the Peaky Blind is then a gone. There are still nasty men. There's little gangs in Birmingham, but there is not the rampant backstreet gang problem that bedeviled and blighted the lives of the poor from the late 1860s till just before the First World War.

Dan Snow (28:42)

Okay, but. So the police seem to have retaken the streets of Birmingham. But all of this violence, all this activity, it does spark something more organized crime, doesn't it?

Karl Chin (28:51)

Yeah, it leads to semi organized crime in that a gang called the Birmingham gang emerges from some of the worst Peaky Blinders and they go racing, Dan.

Dan Snow (29:02)

Okay, so they go national.

Karl Chin (29:03)

Yes. So what's happening from the late. Probably from the 1870s, but certainly by the 1880s and 90s, according to a London newspaper, Senior Peaky Blinders, they say, said in 1898, Go racing in the flat racing season now. The flat's always more popular than the jumps. What are people carrying at a race course, Dan?

Dan Snow (29:23)

Oh, they're carrying. Well, they're drinking a lot and they're carrying their winnings or what they want to win. Exactly.

Karl Chin (29:28)

So this is like bees to the honey pot. Small gangs from Birmingham, 6, 7, 8, are traveling across the midlands of the north. How are they able to do so? The extension of the railway system, and they're going to the race courses. They take over. They dominate the rackets in the midlands and the north. There are gangs from Sheffield and Leeds, but even in Yorkshire, they have to pay tribute to the Birmingham gangs.

Dan Snow (29:56)

Really, that must have been. That must be tough for the Yorkshireman to swap.

Karl Chin (29:59)

Yeah, I mean, the Sheffield gang, the Moonies, the Garvins. Originally, the Mooney's was the West Bar gang. The Garvin gang was the park gang. They. They are not in control. So what happens is you've got all these little gangs and they start pickpocketing. There's very few coppers there, and the coppers that are there are too scared of the gangs. There's hardly any stewarding. So they're pickpocketing but then they start to intimidate bookmakers and extort money from them. You understand there? That's a good pitch. A fiver. Yeah. Oh, you've got a stall. We've got a stall. Two and sixpence a race. Six races, 15 shillings, 75 pence. You write the horse, the names of the horses, the bet, the prices, the horses on a blackboard. Two and sixpence for a stick of chalk. Each race, another 15 shillings. That's 30 bob. At the end of each race, you've got to get rid of those previous runners. So you get a sponge that has to be dipped in a bucket of water. Two and sixpence for the sponge each race. Two and sixpence for the buckets of water each race. It mounts up, mounts up a lot. So by the early 20th century, as the gangs are being put down in Birmingham, some of them have moved really away from the back streets, and they are brought together into a formidable fighting force by a man called Billy Kimber. Don't know if it rings a bell. From series one.

Dan Snow (31:21)

Yep.

Karl Chin (31:22)

The cockney gangster running the racecourse who gets killed. He was a big burly brummy from Summer Lane. His family's descendants, his Birmingham descendants, are regularly in contact with me and have been for many years. He brings them together into this fearsome fighting force, not fully organized because each little mob has got its own leader, but he has got brains as well as brawn. He's a fearsome fighter, but he's got a bit in his noodle. And what he does before the First World War, he abandons his Birmingham wife, Maud to live and die in poverty, and she's buried in a pauper's grave. And his granddaughters and his great granddaughters in Birmingham still hate him for doing that. He piles up in London with George Sage of the Camden Town mob, North London. But this is where he's dead cute. He also piles up with the McDonald's from the elephant Boys, South London after the First World War. The Birmingham gang, because there's hardly any racing in the First World War, because it's seen as unpatriotic. The Birmingham gang reassert their control over the racecourses of the Midlands of the North. But then they're drawn down south to pal up with the Camden Town mob and the Elephant boys. And in 1920, they take control. But they're racist, they're horrible. And they extort extra money from the Jewish bookmakers, one of whom was a character called Alfie Solomon. In the series, Alfie Solomons played By Tom Hardy. I met the younger brother of the real alfie Solomon in 1987, Simeon Solomon, in a very tough pub in North London. And he looked at me as we were having a chat and he went, it's packed. He went, it's all your lot's fault. I said, oh. He said, you lot from up north now, I'm a Midlander, actually, I'm a West Midlander. I don't like being called a Northerner or a Southerner, but I was in a tough pub, I took it that day. And he told me about what started the racecourse war of 1921, the first gangland war between two organized gangs from two different cities, the Birmingham gang and the Sabinis. And he said, what happened, Carl? He said, my brother Alfie was betting under the name Sidney Lewis, which Simeon also betted under because, as he said, because of racism, we would have never got a bet if we stood with our Jewish names. And one of your mob, he said, came along and beat him up badly. I found what he told me about the beating and since then I found a rare account in a book by a Jewish guy who was a boxing referee was there that day.

Dan Snow (34:10)

Wow.

Karl Chin (34:10)

It's a corroboration and that's a great thrill, Dan, because I believe in the spoken word, but as you know, there's a snobbery in academia towards the spoken word. So finding the corroboration and. And then I found an ex copper who corroborated as well in his memoirs. So Alfie Solomon, as opposed to Alfie Solomons in the series, was not an Orthodox looking Jewish guy from a Yiddish background in the East End. He was from North London, well, Covent Garden. He was from Covent Garden. His dad had a little business, they grew up with the servants and he's standing on his stall and a man called Tommy Armstrong, one of the most violent, vicious, brutal, nasty Birmingham gang members came past him and he wanted 40 pound on a horse. It's 11 to 4. So if he puts 40 pound down, he gets 110 back. But he wants it on the nod. I'm not paying, I want it on credit. Now, if he loses, is he going to bung the 40 quid?

Dan Snow (35:12)

Exactly.

Karl Chin (35:13)

But if it wins and it won and he come back and he shouted, I want me winnings. And Alfie Solomon shouted. I said, no bet, no bet. He took his field glasses off, smashed him into the face of Alfie Solomon. According to the guy whose accounts I read, the ex, the former referee, the Jewish guy, he said he fell to the Floor, his face a bloody mess. And Armstrong then smashed his boots into his face. Armstrong then went on to beat up so badly an inoffensive Jewish bookmaker that the poor guy died a few weeks later. Armstrong was ad up for manslaughter. Nobody turned up to as a witness. The poor bookies widow stood up in court and said, your honor, to the judge, no man will turn up here to speak against him. They're so scared of him. That started the racecourse war. Alfie Solomon was not a gangster till then. He'd served honorably in the First World War. Billy Kimber didn't. He did a runner. He deserted. He went to Ireland where racing continued. So did a lot of the other organised gang members. Alfie Solomon turns to Edward Emanuel. He is the big Jewish gang leader in the East End, Whitechapel, Spitalfields. And he's got in with a top bookie called Walter Beresford. They're running spielers, illegal gambling clubs and they're also on the racecourse. But they can't take over the racecourse cause of the Birmingham gang and their London allies. So Edward Emanuel spots an opportunity now and what he does, he knows he's got a gang of East End Jewish tough nuts, but they're not enough. So he piles up with an up and coming Anglo Italian gangster, Darby Sabini. And Sabini has got a gang from Clark and Wool and King's Cross made up of Anglo Italians like himself, but also men of solely English heritage. And they set this gang up and there's some vicious fighting throughout the spring and early summer of 21. But ultimately the Birmingham gang and their London allies are defeated because Edward Emanuel's got a brainier brain than Kimber. He starts the Bookmakers Protection Association. I was a bookie, Dan. My dad was president of the Birmingham Bookmakers Protection association, an organization which I didn't realize were set up by a gangster. And what they do, they get the support of the Jockey Club, who were really worried sick about attendance levels because of all these headlines about gang wars. So they get their support. The Metropolitan Police like the idea as well. So what do they do, Dan? They hire the Sabinis as stewards and the bird gamekeeper.

Dan Snow (38:05)

Amazing.

Karl Chin (38:05)

So that's the very first organized gang war in Britain. And it's because Billy Kimber, who was a Peaky Blinder and his main fighting men had all been Peaky Blinders.

Dan Snow (38:16)

Now you mentioned that your great granddad was a Peaky Blinder. When you were growing up, was there still a memory? Was it talked about, as you say, that blighting, that community.

Karl Chin (38:25)

Yeah. My great granddad, Edward Derrick, I knew about him growing up. I knew that he was a thief, I knew that he was violent and an abusive husband. I interviewed people from my dad's street who knew him. They told me that he'd come home mucky drunk and if my great grandmother Ada heard him coming, she would rush with my grandmother Maisie next door to Granny Carey's, and he wouldn't go into Granny Carey's because she got five big sons. Or else if she wasn't in Granny Carey, she'd run and hide in the brewhouse that was the common or wash house. But too often he got home and I later found a report again that all 11's been substantiated, verified by the written word, a legal document stating he used to come home, beat her up, threatened to kill her, punch her about the place, and threatened to set fire to the house with her and the daughter in. So I knew all that growing up then more. Many years ago, Dave Cross, who was the late Dave Cross, who was the policeman in charge of the West Midlands Police Museum, said, carl, I found a photo of your great grandfather over to Derek. He said he was a right blighter and he was a Peaky Blinder. I've looked at it now in the the evidence, he got the later fashion in a photo of the Peakies, which was longer hair parted in the middle, but he still got the daff. Then I find that his older brother John, my great great uncle, was one of the main leaders of this notorious Sparkbrook slogging gang. So I've got that. I knew about it growing up and I've done a lot more research into it and I have to tell you, Dan, I'm not proud to be the great grandson of a royal Peaky Blinder or the great, great nephew of a leading figure in a slogging gang. But I'm very proud to be the son, the grandson and the great grandson of Backstreet Birmingham women as we would stay in Birmingham, my generation, proud to be the son, great grandson and grandson of Backstreet Bromidge and Wenches.

Dan Snow (40:26)

Well, Carl, I'm sure they'd be equally proud of you, equally proud of all the work you've done. Tell us, what's the latest book called?

Karl Chin (40:32)

The latest book is called Peaky Blinders the R. And I'm on a documentary on Amazon that he's looking at the real Peaky Blinders.

Dan Snow (40:40)

Brilliant. Good timing. Thanks very much for coming on.

Karl Chin (40:42)

Thank you for Having me, Dan. It's a great pleasure.

Dan Snow (40:44)

Well, huge thank you to Cull Chin for bringing us the real story behind the Peaky Blinders. A world far removed from the slow motion swagger of the TV show and the movie. But I think you can agree far more interesting for being real. Because those real gangs of Birmingham were not criminal masterminds pulling political strings. They were young men. They were street fighters. They were petty thieves and racecourse racketeers. They were shaped by poverty and brutality, youth culture, boredom, official neglect, and the hard edge of industrial life. Now, before you go, I've got something exciting I'm just gonna tell you about. Over the past few months, loads of you have got in touch saying that you love it when history at hosts get together. We got Kate and Matt and Eleanor and Tristan, all those guys. Kate Lister's got the Betwixt the Sheets podcast. Eleanor and Matt gone medieval. Anthony and Maddy After Dark. Tristan with the Ancients. Basically, you've been asking for an Avengers assembling of the history hit universe. And we've listened. If you're a subscriber to this podcast, if you're one of the wonderful people who get our bonus content, you're about to get some brand new episodes taking you behind the scenes in history at Towers. It's where we host all get together. We're gonna have a few drinks, we're gonna eat some snacks. I'm gonna talk about the stuff that normally happens after the microphones go off. So if you're already a subscriber and thank you very much, if you are, please keep an eye out for that. Thank you. In 1095, the pope absolutely freaked out. He issued a call to arms, which set Europe on a collision course in the Holy Land. In our miniseries running throughout April, we chart the epic sweep of the Crusade, from the astonishing capture of Jerusalem to the bitter failures of later expeditions. We'll hear about the mysterious religious orders, the Knights Templar and the Nizari Ismailis. And we'll relive the climactic siege of Acre, the epic battle that finally ended the crusader presence in the Holy Land. All these episodes coming in April. So follow Dan Snow's history here or smash that stuff. Subscribe button if you're watching on YouTube and you won't miss a single one.

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Dan Snow (44:41)

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