The Scandalous Private Life of Charles II

Summary

Dan Snow’s History Hit

Episode: The Sex Life of Charles II
Date: February 12, 2026
Host: Dan Snow
Guest: Dr. Kate Lister, historian and host of Betwixt the Sheets

Overview

In this episode, Dan Snow and Dr. Kate Lister dive into the remarkably decadent and complex sex life of Charles II, England’s “Merry Monarch.” They explore how Charles' numerous mistresses shaped court culture during the Restoration, discuss the often-overlooked agency of royal mistresses, and reflect on the meanings of power, notoriety, and social mobility for women in 17th-century England. Listeners are treated to colorful anecdotes, sharp historical analysis, and a lively rapport between guest and host.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Restoration Context and Charles II's Worldview

• Restoration of the Monarchy: The return of Charles II in 1660 marked the end of 11 years of strict Puritan rule and a return of celebrations, theater, and fun.
• Charles II's Upbringing:
  • Traumatic childhood involving his father's execution and years as an exile and pawn in European courts shaped his views and politics.
  • "He's been passed around. He doesn't know if he's coming or going... It's just a mess." — Dr. Kate Lister (06:01)
• Personality and Leadership:
  • Clever, diplomatic, and tolerant, Charles avoided excessive vendettas and sought religious tolerance.
  • Contrasted with his brother James' rigidity.
  • "He was clever, he was bright, he was a big patron of the sciences." — Dr. Kate Lister (07:52)

2. The "Merry Monarch" and Return of Pleasure

• Social Impact:
  • Opening of theaters, women on stage, and lifting restrictive Puritan-era laws.
  • Focus on city and court life; rural people less affected ("If you went and spoke to a peasant...would they have noticed a restoration?").
• French Influence:
  • Charles brought permissive, cosmopolitan habits from his exile, importing French court culture and sexual mores.
  • "He's like the ultimate gap year kid...he can do everything he wants now." — Dr. Kate Lister (09:57)

3. Court Culture—"Wife-Swapping and Chaos"

• Permissive Elite Atmosphere:
  • Widespread court gossip, sexual freedom, and a new tolerance at the elite level ("A much more permissive attitude").
  • John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester’s obscene poetry and mockery, e.g., poems about the size of Charles’ penis (11:53).

4. Charles II’s Marriage to Catherine of Braganza

• Political Alliance:
  • Marriage failed to produce children; Catherine suffered multiple miscarriages and was unpopular (foreign, Catholic, childless).
• Charles’ Loyalty:
  • Pressure to divorce; he refused.
  • Quote: "He absolutely refused to do it...He said, 'She is a good woman and I am not a good man.'" — Dan Snow & Kate Lister (14:08)

5. The Mistresses—Scandalous, Strategic, and Influential

• Sheer Number and Variety:
  • At least 14 acknowledged mistresses (those with whom he had children and recognized them).
  • True figure likely much higher, including brief affairs and liaisons with unnamed women.
  • "If you include casual one-night stands, flings, I would imagine that is a low estimate." — Dr. Kate Lister (15:41)
• Types and Roles:
  • English never formalized the role like the French (with maîtresse en titre), so "mistress" was an unofficial, precarious position but could bring immense influence and wealth.
• Power and Soft Influence:
  • Mistresses had "soft power"—private access, ability to advocate for others, influence the King behind the scenes (21:03).

Notable Mistresses:

• Barbara Villiers

  • Notorious, extravagant, and combative.
  • Made Catherine’s lady-in-waiting against the Queen's wishes.
  • Publicly protested, e.g., by hanging her underwear as a snub, and gatecrashed the royal honeymoon.
  • "She was mental...she hung her underwear outside of her house as a public display." — Dr. Kate Lister (23:09)
  • Subject of public and satirical attention, e.g., the "Poor Whores Petition" (25:31).

• Louise de Kérouaille

  • French, Catholic, sensitive ("weeping willow," "Squintabella"), lavishly expensive (£20,000/year, equivalent to £59 million today), prone to tears and dramatic scenes.
  • "One of his most expensive mistresses." — Kate Lister (25:48)

• Nell Gwyn

  • Humble origins, famed comic actress, popular with the public, witty ("I'm the Protestant whore!").
  • Secured titles for her children; never received a title herself.
  • Famous for her caustic humor and resourcefulness (gave a rival actress laxatives to sabot age her—28:16).
  • "Pretty witty Nell." — Dan Snow quoting Samuel Pepys (30:33)
  • Died young (age 37), likely a victim of syphilis contracted from Charles.

• Lucy Walter

  • Mother of James, Duke of Monmouth; their relationship typical of the era’s precariousness. Charles embraced Monmouth publicly.

Legacy and Illegitimacy:

• Numerous Royal Bastards:
  • Charles named several children Charles or James; created titles, e.g., Beauclerk, Fitzroy houses.
  • Many modern British aristocrats are descended from these liaisons: "An absolute litter of illegitimate children." — Kate Lister (30:03)

6. Sex, Disease, and Death

• Syphilis Epidemic:
  • Charles likely suffered and spread syphilis, affecting various mistresses and contributing to early deaths.
  • Even Nell Gwyn likely succumbed to complications (31:39).
• Charles’ Own End:
  • Died painfully—modern theories suggest medical mistreatment worsened his condition (31:44).

7. Agency, Power, and Feminism at Court

• Nature of Agency:
  • For a few women, being the King’s mistress meant opportunities for wealth and legacy otherwise unobtainable, e.g., Nell’s rags-to-riches arc.
  • But for most, the system was "shit…completely wank"; real power and security were fleeting and hard-won.
  • "Those women played an absolute blinder. They played the cards that they were dealt fantastically...the system sucks, but they played it incredibly well." — Dr. Kate Lister (33:41)
• Ambiguity:
  • Sexual politics could be empowering or destructive, sometimes both simultaneously.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Charles II's Upbringing:

  • "His dad had his head cut off. That would have a few ripples, wouldn't it?" — Kate Lister (04:42)

• On Charles’ Relationship Habits:

  • "He called three of them Charles, four of them Charles, and two of them James. That’s how many illegitimate children he had." — Dr. Kate Lister (21:56)

• On Nell Gwyn’s Wit:

  • "Good people, pray, be quiet. I’m the Protestant whore." — Nell Gwyn, quoted by Kate Lister (29:06)

• On Female Agency at Court:

  • "There’s only a few tiny accesses to power that you could get, and that was that you could marry it, or you could shag it...and those women played an absolute blinder." — Dr. Kate Lister (33:41)

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Notable Timestamps

• 04:03 — Introduction of Dr. Kate Lister
• 06:48 — Charles’ focus on tolerance and refusal to pursue widespread revenge
• 08:08 — Explosion of fun and court culture after Restoration
• 12:53 — Charles’ marriage to Catherine, their childlessness, and public perception
• 13:45 — Catherine brings Bombay as part of her dowry
• 14:50 — Charles refuses to divorce Catherine
• 15:07, 21:03 — Discussion of the king’s mistresses and influence
• 23:09 — Barbara Villiers’ outrageous antics
• 25:50 — Nell Gwyn’s humble origins and unique appeal
• 29:06 — Nell Gwyn’s “Protestant whore” line
• 30:03 — Legacy of royal bastards
• 31:39 — The impact of syphilis on the royal court
• 33:41 — The complex agency of royal mistresses
• 34:23 — Kate Lister plugs "Betwixt the Sheets" for more scandalous royal history

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Tone and Style

The episode is witty, irreverent, and candid, reflecting the playful, gossipy spirit of Charles II’s court. Both Dan Snow and Dr. Kate Lister balance historical depth with humor and modern sensibility, making Restoration history engaging and accessible.

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Suggested Further Listening

• Betwixt the Sheets with Dr. Kate Lister (episodes on Nell Gwyn and royal sex scandals)

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For listeners interested in the intersections of monarchy, sex, and power, this episode is a rich tour through the colorful, chaotic, and dangerous world of Restoration England—equal parts humor, scandal, and smart analysis.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Did I talk too much? Can't I just let it go? I was thinking so much.

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[C]

T minus 10.

[B]

Atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

[C]

God save the King. No black white unity till there is first than black unity.

[B]

Never to go to war with one another again.

[C]

And liftoff. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

[B]

Kate Lister, good to have you on the podcast.

[C]

Hello, how's it going? It's going really good. How are you going?

[B]

Well, I'm doing really well, partly cuz we're going to talk about one of the most colourful, Is that the right word? Colorful monarchs of.

[C]

That's a nice historian word for it. Complex. Complex, that's another good point.

[B]

Colourful and complex, challenging all the seas. King of England, Scotland, Charles ii. But actually he's quite an interesting guy because he was born Prince the blood father Charles I, remembered the Civil War, witnessed the Battle of Edge Hill, then became a sort of penniless exile. So quite an interesting story out compared to some of our monarchs.

[C]

Yes, yes, definitely. I mean his dad had his head cut off.

[B]

That was daddy's head chopped off.

[C]

Yeah, that would have a few ripples, wouldn't it?

[B]

He was smuggled out of custody and traipsed around Europe and having to. It must have been as a young exile prince. It's such a kind of. It's a bit of a trope in this world, isn't it? There are princes wandering around everywhere going, actually I was kicked off the throne by my uncle or something, would you mind putting me back on it? And they must have bumped into quite a lot of them in the low Countries in France, if you thought about that in that period, there's just loads.

[C]

Of deposed royals just wandering around. But it's did spend a good few years wandering and what can you do in that situation, apart from go to other royal courts and go, that's right. Hello, I'm a royal. Could you put me up for a bit, please?

[B]

And it's fascinating. Cause you're just a pawn. Because when a country wants to sort of up the pressure on England, when it's perhaps even in outright war, you get invited to the court. They're like, yeah, you know, we reckon then if the peace treaty, you get thrown out again, you are a pawn.

[C]

Yep. And that's exactly what he was. And he's just been. He's been passed around. He doesn't know if he's coming or going. He's had as his head cut off. Can you go back to England? Can you not go back to England? It's just a mess.

[B]

And also, unfortunately, he's unlucky in his enemy. Oliver Cromwell is one of the most brutal, possibly nastiest, but probably most effective leaders that England ever had. And he runs a pretty tight ship, it looks like. It does look like the republic's head to state. And then Oliver Cromwell's son is completely useless and the whole thing collapses like a deck of cards. So Charles goes from penniless exile to. He's back on the throne. 1660, the Stuarts are back, he's on the throne. How do you think that would shape his sort of mindset?

[C]

I can't even begin to fathom that. I'd like to think of Charles as the. It wouldn't have surprised him that he got to be king. I think that he. He would have had a sense about him that this is his, this is his destiny, this is his. He should be king. He should be king. But there's no denying that that is a hell of a switch in fortunes from just traipsing around Europe to just suddenly, do you want to be king again? And then the weirdest thing happens is the whole Parliament, everybody, they just sort of go, well, we'll just ignore the last 18 years. We're just gonna pretend that didn't happen. We'll just pick up where we. Where we left off.

[B]

I always think as well, that he was clever enough not to pursue vendettas. Cause he must have. There were people around him whose family homes had burned, siblings killed, parents reduced to poverty. War will do that. He went out, he said, everyone who was signed my dad's death certificate is gonna get it. But apart from that, let's just forgive and forget. And he rules. He's reasonably tolerant, isn't he? He doesn't come back and Try and wind the clock back to how it was.

[C]

Yeah, no, he does try for religious toleration. He does. I mean, it must have been very weird from his point of view, to come back to the throne and know that there are people all around you that definitely, definitely had a hand in your dad being killed and you being chucked out of the country and having to just smile along and play nice. That's a masterclass in diplomacy. I'm not sure I would have been able to do that.

[B]

Just a reminder in this period, so much of kingship and does just come down to maybe it's true to personality. You know, his brother James is obviously an absolute idiot, but he clearly had that charm, that charisma, that ability to, well, that political touch.

[C]

He was clever, he was bright, he was a big patron of the sciences. He was very into science and learning and pushing new horizons in the arts and the theatre. And he must have had something about him, some good banter, and particularly in.

[B]

Contrast to what had come before, because people talk about the puritanical, you know, the banning of Christmas, closing of theaters. So we have this idea, don't we, that Charles comes back and there's an explosion of fun and naughtiness. Do we think is that slightly overdone the Merry Monarch, or could you trace that in the record?

[C]

I think that there is a hefty dollop of that. That's true. I mean, if you really want to get into the nitty gritty of it.

[B]

Yes, we do.

[C]

Do we? Okay, all. If you went and spoke to, like, a peasant out in the field in, I don't know, rural Sussex somewhere, and were like, the monarchy's been restored, would they have had a restoration? I'm not entirely sure. Or would they have just kind of nodded along, gone. Right. Oh, then you crack on with that. But if you were in court, if you were in the cities, you would have noticed something quite dramatic. For example, he reopened the theater and he said, women can go on the stage.

[B]

Right, okay.

[C]

Which doesn't sound like a big thing today, like, you know, reopening the theaters. But so much of their culture was based in the theater and the arts, and that was their big social life. And, like, taverns could open again. And the. The Puritans had brought in all kinds of rules around, like adultery and fornication and lots of these quite oppressive, don't be having any fun kind of rules. And he did sweep all of that away. Now, it doesn't mean that everyone in the country went, brilliant. Yay. Because there were A lot of people that really liked that and wanted more of it, in fact. So you didn't get rid of those beliefs, but you would certainly have noticed a big shift in attitude.

[B]

Do you think it's true to say that he. Was he just constitutionally like that or was it the fact he'd grown up in France, grown up in Low Countries, there are different rules, different, you know, sexual politics there, do you think is part of that? The travel that he'd undertaken, he brought.

[C]

A lot of French influences into the court. Definitely.

[B]

Yeah. Too many. Too many.

[C]

He was well cultured, he was well traveled. He was. And he'd spent time in the French court and so what he saw there he kind of liked. So he was going to bring back quite a lot of that. He's like the ultimate gap year kid, like coming back with like beads in their hair and you know, like, oh, when I was in India speaking to the Maharisha, that's him. But he's on stage and he's on the throne and he can do everything he wants now.

[B]

And unfortunately his Maharisha was Louis XIV of France, who he gives Dunkirk back to for no reason, by the way. That's my niche. But extremely heartfelt complaint about Charles.

[C]

Second, we've never forgiven him.

[B]

Never forget, never forgive the world wars against the Dutch, a lot of it around trade.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Great fire of London.

[C]

Great fire of London. Yeah, he was there for that.

[B]

And he did what. He was amazing as well, the King. Yeah, he was there kind of involved in sort of trying to fight the fire and the front line. Bizarre. And also the year before, I suppose. But there was that terrible outbreak of plague as well. One of the most astonishing outbreaks of plague.

[C]

Yeah, he wasn't quite so much there trying to fight that in the thick of it.

[B]

No, he'd have been.

[C]

That would have been a very, very heated. Yes, he did. And he self isolated quite far away from where the plague was.

[B]

So the court has this reputation, doesn't it, of being this place of sort of wife swapping and chaos and colour and drama and that is, given what came before that, that must be true.

[C]

It is pretty true. I mean it was probably still going on underneath the Puritans. We know that Cromwell was suspected of having a few mistresses himself. But you just. Yes, hypocrite. But you just kept it a bit quieter. But certainly in the court of Charles ii and I emphasize that to say that it didn't mean it was a free for all, for absolutely everybody. But in that court there developed a Much more permissive attitude. You've got people like John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester, wandering around, who was prodigious for the amount that he could drink and the obscene poetry that he would write and just generally being. He wrote a poem about how big King Charles's willie was.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I guess, as you're saying that that made me think of what's going on Kings Road, the 1960s. So the rest of the country, like. What do you mean, the 60s? I don't know. But. But in pockets and in part of elite culture. The six. But as we saw in the 1920s.

[C]

And if you're rich.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Then you can have a revolution.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The poor people, not so much. I mean, it would have kind of trickled down. They would have noticed things like not getting arrested for having adults.

[B]

And there would have been pubs reopening, taverns reopening.

[C]

Christmas was allowed back. They would have noticed things like that.

[B]

So you've mentioned mistresses. We are going to talk a lot about his mistresses because he was prolific.

[C]

Yes, he was.

[B]

And he had lots and lots of children with those mistresses. Isn't it weird, you see, of Henry I, it's almost like there's something in there. It's like karma. If you have lots of mistresses and have lots of legitimate children, you don't sometimes produce that many legitimate offspring. And Charles II and his wife didn't. Did they have a very unhappy marriage? Catherine of Braganza.

[C]

Did they have an unhappy marriage? It's difficult to get a window into it. I don't know how this woman put up with the things that she did, but what can we say? She didn't have any children, which is bad news if you are a Queen in the 17th century. It was a political marriage. It was there to cement relationships between Portugal and between England. But she was quite unpopular with the masses because she was foreign. And obviously, being British, anyone who's foreign, we're not pleased with that, quite frankly.

[B]

She's Catholic.

[C]

Catholic. So those two big things. And then the third, she didn't have any children, so she wasn't very popular with the Brits. But she herself seemed to be. She was all right. She liked tea parties.

[B]

The story goes that she introduced tea drinking. Yeah. And she did bring definitely Bombay as part of her dowry.

[C]

But that's a hell of a thing.

[B]

It's a hell of a thing.

[C]

Bombay.

[B]

Bombay. There you go. So Charles ii, that said Bombay.

[C]

I don't know if they had a happy marriage, but one thing that you can say is that Charles could have divorced her. There was a precedent for this and certainly he was under pressure to divorce her and find himself a nice fertile Protestant queen. And he would have had quite a lot of backing to do that. But he absolutely refused to do it.

[B]

He said, I think in later life she is a good woman and I am not a good man. I think he.

[C]

That's a fair summation.

[B]

Yeah, true.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And she did have lots of miscarriage, I think. So they were, they gave it a go.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. She had three miscarriages that we know about. And what that woman had to put up with in terms of this guy's other partners and mistresses is absolutely off the charts.

[B]

Because would it have been. It would have been in your face at court, because she was at court and it would have been obvious.

[C]

It would have been beyond obvious. In fact, one of the things that he did is he made Barbara Villiers, her name was one of his most notorious and powerful mistresses. He made her his wife's lady in waitress. And when Catherine began to quite reasonably went sod off, he really dug his heels in and he sent home all of her retinue from Portugal and really put the pressure on her until she caved and let her husband's mistress be her lady in waiting. So that wasn't too cool, Charles. That was a bit of a dick move to say that's not nice, is it?

[B]

You've mentioned one mistress, let's talk about the rest of them. There's 14, I think acknowledged that historians can track down 14 mistresses.

[C]

What they mean by that are. Those are the ones that we know we had children.

[B]

Oh, okay, right.

[C]

That's what, what we mean by confirmed, as in he acknowledged the children are his.

[B]

Yes. Because I'm often struck by the fact that you read about the king having mistresses and always very well, often quite aristocratic. Charles ii, we do know about some others, don't we? But you think to yourself, is the king also forcing himself on members of staff when he goes off on hunting parties as well? I mean, so it's kind of. Even the word mistress has a certain connotation, doesn't it?

[C]

It does. We don't know that bit, but I would imagine that that is a low estimate of. I think it would be a lot more. This is including just casual one night stands, flings, like I said, servants, people, any. We just don't know.

[B]

So what does mistress mean when you hear that being talked about? Does that imply almost is there. Is there a monogamy? Do you have one mistress after another. Is that just.

[C]

No. Well, I mean, you might just a.

[B]

Fancy word or is it something of an institution?

[C]

It is an institution if you're French. The French did this properly. They had official court mistress whose official job it was to be the mistress of the king, and that was known as the matrice on Tetra. The first official mistress was Agnes sorel. In the 1400s. The English and everyone else attempted to emulate this, but they never made it an official position. So you get this weird no man's land, what we're doing. But the French were quite clear. You get your mistress is the mistress, but if you cheat on the person you're already cheating on your wife with, that was considered quite bad form.

[B]

Really.

[C]

Yeah, that was like a little bit.

[B]

So it's one after the other.

[C]

Yeah. Like that's your official mistress. That's what you get.

[B]

You listen to Dan Snow's history hit. Thank you, Valkyrie. There's more coming. This episode is brought to you by Ethos. My experience of life insurance has honestly been overwhelming. Long phone calls, stacks of paperwork, and the stress of medical exams, all just to get basic coverage. It can feel slow, invasive, confusing. That's where Ethos stands out. They make getting life insurance fast and easy. And it's all 100% online. You can get a quote in seconds, apply in just a few minutes, and in many cases get same day coverage. There's no medical exam at all, and you just answer a few simple health questions. Coverage can go up to $3 million, with some policies starting as low as $30 a month. As of March 2025, Business Insider named Ethos the number one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. And with a 4.8 out of 5 rating on Trustpilot from over 3,000 reviews, they clearly had the experience to back it up. Protect your family with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quotes in [e-mail] snow that's e t h o s.com snow application times and rates may vary. This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no limit on features or data. Odoo has over 60 apps available for any needs your business might have, all at no additional charge. Everything from websites to Sales to inventory to accounting, all linked and talking to each other. Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O D O O dot com.

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[B]

Did I talk too much? Can I just let it go? Thank you so much.

[A]

Take a breath, you're not alone. Let's talk about what's going on. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better.

[B]

It's Louis xv. Madame de Pompadour was his mistress. But then in order that there wouldn't be a high status mistress to replace her, she'd put sort of lowborn common folk into his bed so that he wouldn't get rid of her.

[C]

Yeah, but they don't count because they're just flings. She's got the official title in this country and certainly what Charles was doing. No, that isn't what he.

[B]

So it was a bit anarchic.

[C]

Yeah, it was very anarchic. What you had was favourites, which is quite ill defined. And if you think back, or if anyone thinks back about their colorful dating past that, you have people that you are completely infatuated with and people that you really fancy and then it might wane. And then there are people that you look back on and you think, what was I thinking? I was, what on earth. How could I possibly have liked that person?

[B]

Love will do that to you.

[C]

But that's how precarious this all is. So these women who are his mistresses and that could gain enormous amounts of power and influence. It's all ride or die on the King's affections. It's not an official position at court.

[B]

And you mentioned power and influence. Let's dig into that. How does that work? If their brothers, their cousins have got a kind of property dispute or something, a petition they want to put in front of the king, they can just slide that to the top of his entry.

[C]

They could do that. I mean, they've got what is often called soft power. So they wouldn't have been allowed on any councils, they wouldn't have been allowed on any war councils. But they spend time with the King, they're very intimate with the King, they can talk to him about the war councils. They might be influencing policy and events in the way that your partner can do. When you go home and talk about things with your partner, with your lover, you know, get some advice and some feedback that can be very powerful like that.

[B]

He really seems to acknowledge his children by these mistresses.

[C]

Yeah, he does.

[B]

He has a son, James, who he makes Duke of Monmouth with a woman he meets in the Low Countries, I think, who's not an aristocrat.

[C]

Yeah, that's Walters.

[B]

Yeah, Lucy Walters.

[C]

Lucy Walters, yes.

[B]

And when Monmouth comes into his life as a boy. Oh, thrilled to see him, like, welcome to the family, I'm gonna make you a duke, give you the night at the Garter.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And just. I can't work out. Does that show him in a good light?

[C]

It's difficult to say, isn't it? He definitely acknowledged his children. And he had so many illegitimate children. He called three of them Charles, four of them Charles and two of them James. That's how many illegitimate children he had. But he definitely recognized them. He gave them titles, he gave them land. Some of them had the last name Beauclerk, some of them had the last name Fitzroy. But he made a really big deal about it, which might have been great for him, but I always think, what was that like for Catherine? Catherine of Braganza, who is there with no babies and he is, like, falling over himself surrounded by children with other women?

[B]

I think Lucy Walter, the mother of James, Duke of Monmouth, he does sort of abandon her. But some of his mistresses, he finds good marriage's fault, which in those days is what accounts for, you know, a big reward.

[C]

Well, it's a tricky one, being the mistress. I mean, how do you play this properly? It's all very, very precarious. It can end in a second if the King takes against you. So really the best course of action to you would probably be to get pregnant and get pregnant quite quick, because then the King has got a tie to you and he should look after this baby. And that's what most of them did.

[B]

So Barbara Villiers, who's probably one of the most famous mistresses, she ends up. He ends up looking after her.

[C]

She was mental, by the way. She was like. The thing about Charles is not only did he like a lot of women, and he seems to have liked slightly older women, he seems to have liked crazy women. Like, properly, like, she was mad. How mad was Barbara Villiers? Right. So not only is she married, her husband eventually gives up on this because his wife is clearly having an affair with the King and not trying to hide it at all. And he's like the most famous cuckold in Christendom, so he gives up. But when Charles marries Catherine of Braganza, Barbara was so incensed that she hung her underwear outside of her house as a public display, as a public protest. And then when the King and his new bride went to Hampton Court for their honeymoon, she went there to have his baby. She insisted on it. So she basically gatecrashed their honeymoon to have his baby. Nuts.

[B]

You mentioned Charles liking older women. There is a story that Charles, as a teenager, was seduced by his former wet nurse.

[C]

Yeah, that's not good, is it? That's all getting a bit Freudian. Yeah, that is something that he would say later in life.

[B]

Tell me about other mistresses.

[C]

Okay, so there's Barbara Villiers, completely bat crap crazy. Notorious for being very greedy and spending money like it's going out of fashion. Lots of erotic pamphlets and satirical things written about her. She was like this great big trollop.

[B]

So it wasn't just known about in court. This is something people on the streets of London would have known.

[A]

Doctors.

[C]

Yeah. There was like satirical poems written about them having threesomes together and about Barbara Villiers being a lesbian with these other mistresses. And it just goes on and on and on. In 1668, there was something called the Bawdy House Riots in London, which was where a lot of brothels were attacked and people were dragged down the street and beaten up. It was a horrible thing. But out of that came this satirical work called the Poor Whores Petition, which was supposedly written by the poor whores of London to their sister, Barbara Castlemaine, where she was at that point. And apparently she was absolutely furious. She was absolutely raging. This document is all like, oh, please take pity on your sisters, on your sister whores. And she was absolutely raging. So she's like fireworks, crazy mad. Then you've got an opposition to that. You've got the French aristocrat and Catholic Louise de Carrauel, who was very demure, very delicate, cried a lot. One of his other mistresses, Nell, Gwen, used to make fun of her, calling her a weeping willow. And Squintabella. Whenever Charles would get his wandering eye and go off with someone else, she'd just take to her bed and just cry hysterically. She was also one of his most Expensive mistresses. At one point she was collecting like £20,000 a year off him, which is about £59 million today. I know, it's like it's so much money.

[B]

That's extraordinary.

[C]

Extraordinary.

[B]

You mentioned Nell Gwyn there, who I'm a big fan of. She was another mistress and she's not of an aristocratic background.

[C]

No, she's not. She's my most famous mistress. So Nell does not come from an aristocratic background, not even remotely. She was born in poverty in London, we think, although there's some dispute about it. Her mother might have run a bawdy house at brothel or that might have been a story that was spun about her later, we're not sure. Her father, whoever he was, disappeared. Some suggest he might have been in the army, some suggest he might have been in debtors prison, we just don't know. But she was one of the first actresses on the stage and she was a fantastic comedy actress as well. And this was the first time women had been on the stage. So she's a real trailblazer. People come from all round to watch her. And she's only about 14 years old when she's doing this.

[B]

And she appears in Samuel Pepys Diaries, doesn't she?

[C]

Oh, loads of them appear in Samuel Pepys Diaries. The horny old sod that he was just. He went and looked at Barbara Castlemind's knickers when she hung them up and.

[B]

He'S just, how did Charles meet her?

[C]

We're not entirely sure about that one, but it's likely they met in 1669 and he probably came to see her in the theatre, or at least that's the story that we get told about it. It was probably a little bit more political than that. The mistresses had a huge amount of power, people knew that. So there was some finagling behind the scenes to try and get Charles a new mistress because people were very, very upset with Barbara Villiers shrieking and stealing and just being mad. So people were trying to push other mistresses in front of him. Nell was one of those and apparently she originally said that she would meet with him and be his mistress for, I think it was like £500 a year. And they said, no, it's too expensive. So she initially turned it down and then he took up with another actress called Moll Davis. But Nell has gone down in history because she was so funny and she was such a firecracker and she just seems like she was a really good laugh and I think that was really important to Charles. I mean, you've got to think. He's got Louise de Carrawell bawling over here. He's got Barb Revilliers waving her knickers around and having babies over here. His poor wife is somewhere having tea. Who knows? So it's just absolute bedlam. And in the middle of it, you've got Nell cracking jokes. But I say that she was also pretty vicious to some of the other mistresses. Moll Davis, the other actress one, she knew that she was gonna have a night with Charles, and so she sent her a load of sweets that were laced with laxatives. No way, Nellie. Really?

[B]

No.

[C]

She did think about how cutthroat and how vicious this. Because they're all stuffed in together. They're all hanging out together. They all sit around playing cards, all knowing that, oh, is it your turn next? No, it's my turn. It's all so competitive. They have to try and get this man's attention. And she was really, really good at it, and she knew her reputation and she played on it and she never let people put her down. And she was constantly berated for being this, like, jumped up working class. Like some real nasty stuff was written about her. But she knew that she was also very popular with the people. There's this story about how she was in her carriage and they were going through London and people started attacking the carriage and they thought that it was Louise de Carrawell who was in there. And she leans out and she says, good people, pray, be quiet. I'm the Protestant whore. So she's like, that's a good line.

[B]

Not the Catholic one.

[C]

Not the Catholic one. That's a good line.

[B]

To us, London is this giant global megacity. London would have been so intimate back then.

[C]

Yeah, People knew people, you know, they were the celebrities of their day.

[B]

So she takes up with him about 1670. He's got 15 years left to run. Are they close through the rest of that, or does she fall from favor as well?

[C]

They are pretty close. He buys a house in Pall Mall. They have two children together. There's a story about how Nell, one of the little boys, was in the presence of the king and he was running away and she went, come here, you little bastard. And the king was really shocked that she would call him that. And then she looked at me, said, well, your majesty's given me no other name by which to call him. And then he gave him a title. Boom.

[B]

Well done.

[C]

Now, come on.

[B]

Yeah, that's the remark. So you talk about the Fitzroys. There's The Dukes of Grafton to this day. So many of our aristocrats still today in Britain are descended from these illegitimate children of Charles ii.

[C]

Yes, an absolute litter of illegitimate children. But once she's got the titles for her children, that's her pretty much secure. He never gave her a title, by the way, so he gave titles out to the other mistresses like they were going out a favour, but he never gave one to Nell. But her children got titles.

[B]

My grandmother called her so my Welsh nine. My grandmother called her little corgi Nell. After Nell, Gwyn always had a soft spot for her.

[C]

Samya Peep said, pretty witty Nell.

[B]

Pretty witty Nell.

[C]

Pretty witty Nell.

[B]

It's cool that she obviously fired him up, not just physically but intellectually.

[C]

She was really clever, but she never learned to read. She was illiterate throughout her whole life, which when you think that she was an actress on the stage, she must have been memorizing those lines, had them read to her like, how, how did you do that? Now that's impressive, but that is the best rags to riches story. She only made it to 37 though.

[B]

So she died in the 6 and 80s.

[C]

Yeah. Because it does seem that Charles was riddled with syphilis, as you might expect. Seems to have passed that round like a bag of toffees that goes round all of his missing, really? Yeah, yeah. Louise de Carrawell takes to her bed again when she gets infected with it and he gives her loads of jewels to say sorry. And there's like a joke going around at court about like, oh, maybe it'd be worth it to, you know, give me a dose for £10,000, Charles. But it's a horrible, horrible illness and it's probably what contributes to Nell's death, certainly. Cause at 37 she has a series of strokes. We think that they're strokes. She suddenly becomes paralyzed and that's probably a result of what syphilis has done to her body.

[B]

Charles doesn't do badly as far as that period. 54 ish 6 and 85.

[C]

Not a nice death though, is it not? No, no, it's not. I mean, there's a lot of debate actually about what happened to him. He suddenly started fitting one day and his doctors came to help. But what they did is they spent the next three or four days repeatedly bleeding him, blistering him, burning him with stuff, force feeding him and things to make him shit himself. And just what they did to his body. Whatever had happened to him, maybe he would have recovered, but the doctors coming in made that significantly worse.

[B]

And then he left the throne to his little brother, James ii, and that was a catastrophe. Looking at the rounds, how should we think about these women and Charles ii? Like, did they have agency? Is this a story about how women can thrive and succeed in a patriarchy? Or is it just a depressing tale of misogynistic, unbalanced relationships where women get shafted and get given syphilis and just die miserable deaths?

[C]

Both those things are true at the same time.

[B]

The system historian answer. There that is, isn't it, Dr. Kate Lister.

[C]

It's a complex history, that's what we say. And then we walk away. What do I think about it? So the system was shit. The system was completely wank. The King had all of the power and a great big wig and he could do whatever he wanted to because he was king. And some people had loads of power and some people had none. And it was a really difficult time to be a woman. And if you were a woman, there's only a few tiny accesses to power that you could get, and that was that. You could marry it or you could shag it, and that's a really rubbish system, but that's what was there. And those women played an absolute blinder. They played the cards that they were dealt fantastically. They managed to carve out a legacy for themselves, titles, money. I mean, how else would Nell have ever. A woman like Nell, with her background, have got to where she was if not for shagging the King? It just wouldn't happen. But an actress born in the slums of London, that was the only route for her, and it's incredible that she did that. So it's difficult because the system sucks, but they played it incredibly well. And I think that there was agency there. But the other thing we have to kind of balance it with was for a few people, for a few people, like, for a few people, they managed to play the game really well. For millions of others, it was just unremittingly awful. But I can't help but admire them, just the balls of them and the outrageousness of them and the fact that they knew what they wanted and they got it as well.

[B]

Well, thank you very much, Kate Lister. What I wanted was to get you on the podcast and I got that, so I'm very happy. You are the host of the. Our sister podcast, Betwixt the Sheets.

[C]

I am.

[B]

You got any more content like this for people?

[C]

Oh, we've got loads. We've got loads. We've got a really good episode on Nell, because we love her there's so much royal sex. Honestly, you'll get sick to death of it. But we spend a lot of the time looking at the scandalous, the rude and the naughty things throughout history.

[B]

There's plenty of that. You're not gonna run out. Thanks for coming on.

[C]

A pleasure.

[B]

Well, thank you so much for listening today folks. As ever. If you want more from Kate and who doesn't, check out her podcast Betwixt the Sheets. It's available wherever you get your pods. See you next time. When everything is moving all at once. Your workforce, your tech stack, your business. You don't need more tools, you need one solution. That's why Paylocity built a single platform to connect hr, finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power. What's next? Because when everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy experience. One place for all your HCM needs. Start [e-mail] 1 Lunch was great, but.

[C]

This traffic is awful.

[A]

Um, can we stop at a bathroom? Are you alright? I keep having stomach issues after eating.

[C]

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[A]

Those stomach issues may actually be a.

[C]

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[B]

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[A]

I'm asking my doctor about EPI and if Creon could help.