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Dan Snow (6:15)

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Unknown Guest (6:16)

No black white unity till there is first and black unit never to go to war with one another again. And lift off. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

Martin Rady (6:30)

Martin, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

Unknown Guest (6:32)

My pleasure.

Martin Rady (6:34)

What is going on with Ottoman power in this period? They've taken Constantinople in 1453. Is the plan just to keep going?

Unknown Guest (6:43)

No, the plan has changed, and it's really quite exceptional. The normal account given in the textbooks is that there's this new dynasty that comes through called the Kirkbroulus. And the Kirkbroulus become the Viziers in about the 1630s, and they contribute to an upsurge in Ottoman power. But actually, we need to go back to the period before that and to what I think is best thought of as being the Ottoman Reformation. And that is the religious upsurge that begins in the early 17th century, which is Quranic based, intent on a strict reading of Islamic law and of the principal text. And it's applied in particular this reading. It's applied. The big struggle that's been going on really, for almost a thousand years, a millennia with Islam is the relationship between doctrine and mysticism, in particular the Sufi orders, the dervish orders, and the new wave of, if you like, Islamic zealotry that is directed principally at the Sufis. It's directed also against Shiites and against Alawites and other syncretic forms of religious observance. And these are known after their leader as the Qadi Zabdielis. And the Qadizadeli movement also spins into personal conduct. So Mehmet iv, who is the. The sultan we're going to be dealing with today, Mehmet IV moves against coffee houses and he moves against smokers. 2000 smokers are executed in Istanbul because the consumption of tobacco is not permitted in the Quran. And at the same time, the qadis, our dailies, are very conscious that they need to revive the old Ottoman dream of expansion to create a single, what is called abode of peace. That is, when all Christians have been subjugated, there's no more warfare. So we live in the house or abode of peace. And so they push for a vigorous Ottoman expansion to revive what had been going on really in the 16th century. They look back to an idealized image of Suleiman the Magnificent. And they're also influenced by this massive decline literature, which has been going on really throughout the late 16th 17th centuries, lamenting the decline of Ottoman P. And the Qadhi Zar dailies are very anxious Therefore, to take up the mantle. And Mehmet IV is a quite different type of sultan. The sultans by the end of the 16th century, beginning of the 17th century, are remote figures. They stay in the palace in complete silence. Nobody is allowed to speak. And communication in the palace is by sign language. So they live in this silent world in effectively the middle of Istanbul, in the Topkapi Palace. And they are immobile, necessarily immobile, because their turbans are three foot high. So they have to stay where they are. Mehmet IV is different. He goes about the place, he reviews troops, he goes hunting. And when he goes hunting, he doesn't go to the closed off sultanic areas. He goes into, if you like, more public parkland. He is a very visible and he's an expanding Moloch. The one that is normally mentioned is he completes the conquest of Crete, but more particularly he pushes into what is known as Podolia. It's like all of Ukraine. Ukraine consists of slabs of territory that don't appear to be demarcated geographically. And Podolia is one of them. It is, if you like, north of present day Moldova or another way, draw a line from Lviv to Kyiv and it's in the middle of that line, just to the south of it. So in other words, we're talking about an area that's very far north. And in 1672, his armies take Podolia. They are in the heart of Ukraine. I mean, this is a tremendous advance and this isn't a temporary thing. They compile these massive deftas tax registers. And the tax register of Podolia has been printed for one year and it's about two or three inches thick in the printed text. It's 1,000 pages. This is a massive bureaucratic exercise.

Martin Rady (11:58)

So Martin, you mentioned decline literature. It sounds to me like the Ottomans are still on the move, still capable of expansion. But the 16th century to 1500s has been quite notable for these pesky little Western Europeans. They've suddenly exploded onto the world stage. And the Portuguese, the Dutch, the French, the English, the Spanish have carved out world empires. Is that part of the conversation when you talk about decline? Is there nervousness around the sudden, oh, I don't know, the sudden emergence of these Europeans into all sorts of parts of the world that the Ottomans were not expecting.

Unknown Guest (12:29)

They are worried. They are worried about what is happening to their Ottoman territories and Ottoman tributaries, particularly in the east and the Far east, because places like Java. Friday prayers for the sultan in Java. So in other words, the Ottoman Empire has a very considerable Soft power reach as well as a hard power reach that goes really all the way to the Indian frontier. And they are aware that the Portuguese and the Spanish are moving into their territories. They would like to go, certainly back in the 16th century, they've been looking to expand westwards. They've been thinking, they've been getting maps of the New World. One of Columbus's maps is only known about because it's been copied in Istanbul. They're building up, if you like, a library ready to go to the New World. They've got two problems. Firstly, they don't have the shipbuilding technology. Secondly, they haven't got access to the Atlantic seaboard because Morocco stands in the way. And Morocco is, yes, it's a Muslim power, but at the other side, it's quite closely tied to the Habsburgs. So in other words, they're blocked when it comes to getting a seaborne launching pad for conquest. That's why they turn towards what they call the northern segment, which is that area to the north of the Black Sea. And why they expand into Ukraine. And also why they're thinking the northern segment is very broad. Why they're thinking again of recapturing or trying again to get hold of Vienna. Vienna is large in their imagination. It's one of the golden apples which must fall to Islam. They also think there may be a real golden apple in the spire of St Stephen's so they want to get the loot.

Martin Rady (14:39)

Why do we care about Vienna? What's going on with. Why does it loom large in the Ottoman imagination?

Unknown Guest (14:44)

It's always been there, it's always been a target. Suleiman the Magnificent attempts to take it in 1529. He fails. And that provides, if you like, a goal for his successors to better Suleiman by capturing Vienna and going one stage further. They attempt to get Vienna again in, I think, the 1570s, 1580s, via Otranto. They land in Otranto, massacre the population, all of whom are made saints subsequently, and then they attempt to march north to get to Rome, and then they plan to get to Vienna. They are keen to overthrow the empire because it calls itself an empire, which. Which is an affront to the Ottomans as well.

Martin Rady (15:40)

Because there can be only one empire.

Unknown Guest (15:42)

There's only one empire. Yeah. Remember that one of the titles of the Ottoman ruler is the Sultan is Kaiseri Rum, Emperor of the Romans, precisely the same title as the Habsburg emperors have in Central Europe.

Martin Rady (16:00)

Who is the heir to the Caesars? That's millennia old question in European history. Right, okay, so also 17th century not a great time in European politics if you're looking to project strength and unity. What is the European context for this invasion?

Unknown Guest (16:15)

The European context is the very considerable fear and damage done by Louis xiv. Louis XIV is aiming for the Rhine frontier and he manages in 1681 to get hold of Strasbourg. Strasbourg is this great lynchpin strategically, and it is the home of one of Germany's greatest cathedrals. And its loss will remain a saw to Germans right through till 1870 when they get it back. So you've got this advance, but at the same time, the Ottoman advance and the French advance are interlinked. The two are historic allies. They have been ever since the reign of Francis I. They are historic allies. And even more than that, Ottoman occupied Hungary is an absolute sort of nightmare zone of bandits and guerrilla fighters. And renegades from the Habsburgs. And the Ottomans are organizing these renegades through French officers, what we might now call military advisors who are on the ground advising the Ottomans and advising the Hungarian rebels who are themselves negotiating with Louis xiv. So there's a complication there.

Martin Rady (17:51)

Yes, people talk about this through the lens of a great clash of civilizations, a clash of faiths. But fascinatingly, as you say, France and the Ottomans have had a long relationship. An Ottoman fleet, I think, once spent the whole south of France, didn't it, in TOULON in the 16th century, I think it was. So they've got an active alliance. King Louis presumably thinks it's rather a good thing if his adversary, this Habsburg Emperor of the sort of the German lands, if he's well, he would lose his capital. I mean, Louis, he must have been slightly nervous about the Ottomans advancing all the way through Europe, wasn't he?

Unknown Guest (18:24)

I don't think there's any evidence of that. He appears to be quite ready to stir them up. He's quite ready to sort of give them funds if needed and to engage in creating huge local difficulties. The Ottomans aren't the only ones aiming at Vienna. Back in the 1620s, a Protestant Bohemian army is in the Vienna suburbs ready to take on Ferdinand ii. And there's no defenders in Vienna at the time. And since then the Hungarians have been sending raiding parties into Lower Austria, creating difficulties for the Austrians and threatening the outskirts of Vienna as well. And when it comes actually to the battle, there'll be a Hungarian army present, aiding the Turks, led by a man called Turkuli. And Turkey is a noble. He is sent a crown by the Ottoman Sultan, who calls him King of Hungary. I don't think Turkuli actually ever uses that title himself. He certainly doesn't ever wear the crown, but nevertheless, that just shows the linkage there and the threat which comes to Vienna not just from the Ottomans, but also from the Hungarians in the Ottoman occupied Hungary.

Martin Rady (19:52)

So, Martin, without your head falling off, can you try and give me a sense of how power worked in the Austrian Habsburg German lands? The Ottoman Empire is not marching against another kind of unitary imperial state, is it? This is the Holy Roman Empire. The Habsburgs in Vienna are nominally in charge of this Reich, but really, when the Ottomans start marching on the road, what can an Austrian ruler, who can he summon to defend him? How can he mobilise the resources of this empire?

Unknown Guest (20:22)

He has to do deals. I mean, he does have prestige and that counts for something. And he does have magnificent ceremonies that occasionally are invoked. And Leopold's father, Ferdinand iii, had been very active indeed in the Imperial parliament, in the Diet, chairing sessions, forcing through policy. And with Louis XIV on the scene, the smaller principalities look towards Leopold increasingly to be some type of protection against Louis and against the bigger states. But with the bigger states, he's got two main allies. The first is Saxony. Saxony, despite being Protestant, has been for a long time a Habsburg ally. And Saxony, for instance, only enters the Thirty Years War quite late on in 1630. It stays aloof until then, until Ferdinand II starts confiscating Protestant property. So the Saxons are there, and George of Saxony will be at the great rendezvous in 1683 at Tulm, ready to march to relieve the siege. And the other ally is Bavaria. Bavaria is intensely Catholic, or its rulers are intensely Catholic. They are in much the same sort of part of the Holy Roman Empire as the Habsburgs. So there is an animosity there. But there have been marriages between the two houses, and their relations are much better in the 17th century than they were in the 16th. So he's got two key allies there. Baden is always frightened of France. Baden will support Leopold and the Habsburgs at the same time. Of course, there are the resources of Spain and there will be some financial support less than the Habsburgs wanted to put together. The Holy League, which is formed in 1682, end of 82, early 83, wholly because the Pope is a part of it. And this is because League has plenty of notice that the Ottomans are on the move.

Martin Rady (22:47)

So the Habsburgs have gone to their Spanish cousins for some cash and some help. The Pope's involved. They've got these German principalities because just very basically, the Holy Roman Emperor is a Habsburg. He has direct control over territory in places, what is now parts of the Czech Republic and Austria and various other bits. But beyond that, he only has a nominal, as you say, he's a figurehead for the rest of the German lands. And they individually decide, like Brandenburg or Baden, all these Bavarians, they individually decide exactly how much allegiance, how much sort of fealty they wish to show to this Holy Roman Emperor.

Unknown Guest (23:21)

Absolutely right. And when it comes to the Diet, the Diet votes money, and it certainly votes less money for the operation of the Holy League than the Habsburgs would have liked, firstly because the German princes are notoriously tight, but also because it's a Holy League. And if you're a Protestant, you don't want to support a Holy League that's run by the Pope. The Saxons are more flexible. They'll do that. But other places, Brandenburg, for instance, wouldn't be so interested.

Martin Rady (23:56)

Listen to Dan Snow's history. We're talking about the Siege of Vienna. More coming up.

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Martin Rady (25:47)

Right. So you've got the Ottomans advancing up through Southeast Europe. They have got these Hungarian sort of allies, stroke vassals how big is that force?

Unknown Guest (25:58)

The whole force is probably about 120,000 men, so it's quite substantial. They rendezvous in Adrianople, what is now Edirne. This is where they always rendezvous. In fact, Sultan has wintered in a DNA in anticipation of the campaign, which is why everybody knows that a campaign is going to begin. They rendezvous, I think, in something like April. They're coming from Anatolia, modern day Turkey, as well as from the Balkan Peninsula. So it's a big. What's called a double army. And they march up the old Roman road that goes from Constantinople through Plovdiv in Bulgaria, today Nish in Serbia, and goes to Belgrade. They then have to cross the river and they march up the west bank of the Danube.

Martin Rady (26:59)

And that's a long way.

Unknown Guest (27:00)

Yeah, it's about 1,000 kilometres.

Martin Rady (27:02)

It's a long, single campaign advance, isn't it? And through pretty rough country. Does the route itself take an attritional effect on the Sultan's army?

Unknown Guest (27:11)

It's a Roman road and it still works. It's probably the best surviving Roman road because it's been repaired. It's not like the one that goes west, east across the Balkans, the Via Egnatia, which is bridges fallen down, windy staircases and things like that. This is a good road. It's been maintained. The Ottomans use it a lot. It's been cleared of woodland on both sides of the road so that there's less banditry. The Ottomans are used to this. They know how to march. They have depots all the way along the route so they can replenish the troops extraordinarily. They have these mobile wagons and the wagons have got baking ovens on them, so they've been going along baking the bread. As the army progresses, they are fairly pretty well equipped and they are well supplied. But they're bringing up cannon as well, so they've got very heavy cannon. The cannon is so heavy that when it's mounted on plank platforms, it just crashes through the wood. So they've got a tremendous amount of baggage with them.

Martin Rady (28:28)

And the Austrians are. They've got the Holy League. They're gathering cash and men and weapons. How do they do. What do they end up facing? This Ottoman army with very few troops.

Unknown Guest (28:39)

Because they initially plan to do a foray into Hungary, but they're defeated, basically, by the Hungarians. They're defeated very early on and they scamper westwards to regroup around Linz, which is quite away from Vienna. Leopold is so frightened, he goes even further west and hides in Passau.

Martin Rady (29:03)

So They've abandoned their capital at this point. The Emperor certainly has.

Unknown Guest (29:06)

Yeah. And they've got 10,000 troops. They've evacuated the civilian population. Very few of them remain. So they've just got 10,000 troops under a very able commander, Rudolf von Stahrenberg. Otherwise, yes, as you say, they've abandoned it. But the Ottomans are moving fast. They don't bother to take some of the fortresses that are manned and occupied against them, they just march round them. So they're threatening their return route. So Komarno, which is on the western edge of Hungary, that remains in Imperial hands, they don't give it up. So the Ottomans arrive at Vienna with part of their escape route already blocked off, and they begin the siege in early July.

Martin Rady (29:59)

So there's only. What, when they begin the siege, there's something like 10,000 troops in Vienna.

Unknown Guest (30:03)

They're 10,000 troops? Yeah. You've got about the same number on the Ottoman side who are assault troops. And the rest of the army is, if you like, trying to make Vienna airtight to stop supplies coming in. So they are engaged, camped around Vienna at a distance, but aware that there is a possible relief force gathering.

Martin Rady (30:28)

Wow. Okay, so the key here is going to be the relief force. How airtight do those Ottoman besiegers make it? Do they shut Vienna up completely?

Unknown Guest (30:37)

Yeah, they do. There's very little information. Comes by the end of August. I don't think even dispatches are getting through because the garrison has no idea where the relief force is. Mind you, the relief force, because it doesn't have proper maps, doesn't know where it is either. It's struggling through. And Sobieski, the Polish king, who is supporting the Holy League, actually has to ask for information about how close to the Danube is Viela, that sort of basic information. They have no maps, but as far as the garrison is concerned, it believes it's been cut off.

Martin Rady (31:20)

What's motivating them? You mentioned they have good leadership. Tell me about him. Or are they driven by love of country and love of city? What's going on?

Unknown Guest (31:27)

It's a very, very slow siege, because what the Austrians have done is the walls are not in a good state of repair, but what they have done is build what are called ravelins. They've had these for some time, which are, if you like, freestanding forts outside the walls of the city, so they can fire in advance at people. They've got ditches and moats. So the first thing the Ottomans have to do is clear the ravelins, clear the palisades before they can get close enough to the walls to make a breach, so that slows them up. The Ottoman artillery is very poor. The Ottoman mining is very good. It's the other way round for the Habsburgs because their artillery is very good, but they don't have mining skills. So you've got this imbalance. The artillery is important because when the vizier appears before Vienna and he communicates with them and says, if you surrender now, then I'll let you all go, everybody can go. You can stay and remain Christians to the glory of Islam. If you stay, then you will face the Sultan's wrath. And this is standard 16th, 17th century etiquette in siege warfare. Once you bring up your siege guns, then it's too late for the garrison. They must expect, if they lose, to be slaughtered. So in other words, you've got a window of opportunity to surrender. And Starember does not surrender. So the occupants know they're going to be slaughtered if they let the Turks in. So they are motivated.

Martin Rady (33:24)

You mentioned mining skills. Just in case people are unclear about that. There's two ways, I guess, of breaching a wall. One is to smash it with heavy cannon. The other is to dig a big mine underneath it and put lots of pit props up and then set fire to those and the whole thing comes crashing down and you get breaches that way. There's a lot of mining activity, is there?

Unknown Guest (33:42)

They're using gunpowder. What they do is they work out the distance to the obstacle they want to blow up. And they do this by the highly developed skill of having somebody run with a tape measure, as it were, in order to work out the distance. And what they do is they put in gunpowder. They get actually physically under the wall. You then put in the gunpowder, you seal up the back of the gallery that you've dug, but not seal it up so much that there's no air getting in. So it's quite a skill. And then you try and do a Guy Fawkes with the gunpowder and they're quite successful at doing this. Well, there is one occasion where they blow themselves up, but they blow up in particular. The main one is very beginning of September, where they blow up the wall which is adjacent to the palace. So in other words, the palace is built into the fortifications and they've blown this up and they've created a huge breach through which men could invade and attack if necessary. The Ottomans do attempt to break through. They are repulsed, and then bits of lumber are put up to try and fill the gap. But it is a desperate situation and really, the end is near.

Martin Rady (35:06)

And are the Austrians digging countermines? Are they trying to intercept these mineworks and fighting underground in these tunnels?

Unknown Guest (35:13)

Yeah. One of the instructions is people have to go down to the cellars of the houses and. And listen. And they listen for the sounds of scraping and then they attempt to put a mine down as well. At the same time, overground, they're building trenches and digging trenches, and the trenches are running into one another from the two sides. So there's trench warfare happening in the area. The glaciers next to the wall, a.

Martin Rady (35:44)

Hellish landscape both above the ground and below. Gets to the point, does it? You mentioned there's an assault on the. So Vienna comes within a heartbeat of falling. At that point, there are Turkish troops swarming through the breach.

Unknown Guest (35:57)

And from this point onwards, every night they are sending up distress flares from the spire of St Stephen's saying that the whole situation is now desperate. And then, I mean, this is the great moment that on the 5th of September, they set off the distress flare as they've been doing, and they see in the distance a flare goes up to acknowledge the distress flare and let them know that the army is coming. It's Rendezvous de Tul. It's now marching eastwards.

Martin Rady (36:36)

What an astonishing moment. And not a minute too soon. Who is that relief force?

Unknown Guest (36:41)

The relief force consists of the Habsburg forces. There are about 80,000 altogether in the Holy League army. The Habsburg forces, a few supplied by minor princes of the Holy Roman Empire, like Baden. The big boys are Saxony and Bavaria. And the Poles. There are about 30,000 Poles are coming in and supporting the Holy League on the ground.

Martin Rady (37:13)

How was it managing that coalition, cobbling that force together and getting them to march to the sound of the guns? I mean, that presumably required a lot of diplomacy and leadership.

Unknown Guest (37:20)

Yes. And you've got the problem of Jan Sobieski, who is a king and refuses to take orders from the imperial commander, Charles of Lorraine. Charles of Lorraine is married to a Habsburg princess and he is titular duke of Lorraine. Lorraine's been taken by Louis xiv. He's titular Duke of Lorraine, but Soberski is not going to serve under him. Soberski insists that he's made commander. So it is Sobieski who, in a sense, decides how the battle will be fought. Unfortunately, he makes a reasonably good job of it. But Charles of Lorraine, the imperial commander, is very experienced and very shrewd when it comes to dispositions.

Martin Rady (38:15)

Listen to Dan Snow's history. The climax, the siege of Vienna, follows this. Don't go away.

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Martin Rady (39:36)

So after they acknowledge that flare, what do they do?

Unknown Guest (39:42)

They have to go through the Vienna woods. From Tulm to Vienna, you've got to go through the Vienna woods. These are unmapped troops get lost in them. But they are able to come and break out of the woods at around Kahlenberg and move onto the plain between the Danube and the Wien or Vienna river, which is a wide plain and ideally suited for taking on the Ottomans because you can use the rivers to prevent an outflanking movement. So I think that's more by luck than by judgment. They end up in this ideal position. But nevertheless they do have the advantage of the lie of the land. Ottomans have only got really one battle plan and they've had it since about the 15th century. And one of the hobbies of military men is to go and gather how to defeat the Ottomans. And they all say the same thing. What you need to do is have to stop them outflanking because the Ottomans will make an assault with a hard centre and they will use their light cavalry to outflank you and get you from the back. And at that point your army will tend to collapse. So if you can block them off at the sides and prevent them outflanking, then you can ride them down. That basically is the plan which the Holy League puts into operation. They fight on this broad plane. I mean the front is about 12 kilometers wide. I mean it's a huge area of engagement. And as I think somebody said at the time, we weren't really dealing with a single battle. We were dealing with a whole mass of isolated battles as units confront enemy units and fight, often without any reference to what's going on any further afield. Most battles are like that, but this is in a more exaggerated way. And as the Ottomans begin to fall back, then Sobieski is able to make the decisive cavalry charge. And the decisive cavalry charge he makes with his famous winged lancers. They're always depicted with what look like eagle feathers and tiger and leopard skins around them. They're not eagle feathers, they're vulture feathers or buzzard feathers. And the leopard and tiger skins are, I don't know, something else that's been dyed. But they look fairly effective. And the wings project up from the saddle more than the height of the rider. And they're a bit like Stuka bombers with, you know, the Stukas had loudspeakers on them so that when they dived down, they made a tremendous racket. When you charge and you're a winged lancer, your feathers start giving out this sort of humming, keening sound to intimidate the enemy. And this is the largest cavalry charge, I think, in history, certainly since the Romans. 18,000 minimum, possibly 20,000 men on horseback ride down the Ottoman army and they just clear it and they advance and take the baggage train and occupy the Grand Vizier's tent. The Grand Vizier has already fled. He flees too early, according to the Sultan. But before the Grand Vizier flees, he executes his pet ostrich because he doesn't want it to fall into enemy hands. And I think that bit of savagery is deservedly punished afterwards.

Martin Rady (43:46)

It is. I hesitate to say this, but it is cinematic, isn't it? I mean, you can see why Tolkien was so obsessed at this moment. The battle, quote, unquote, really is, as you say, the skirmishes and then there's just enormous all encompassing avalanche, like cavalry charge. And that's it, that's the end. Astonishing.

Unknown Guest (44:03)

And it comes in at the side and just goes down. The Ottoman line was taking it out, not in a direct confrontation, but taking a unit by unit. So it is a quite extraordinary charge.

Martin Rady (44:17)

And is that it? I mean, the Ottoman. Does the army manage to retreat in any good shape, or is this a band of fugitives streaming through?

Unknown Guest (44:25)

They've had a huge number of casualties, I think something in the region of 70,000. The Austrians capture a lot of the troops and a lot of the camp followers because a lot of the Ottomans are bringing with them, their women and girlfriends, and they set up a slave market in Vienna. You'd not expect that there'd be a slave market functioning in Vienna, but there is one functioning in Vienna. In 1683, the Grand Vizier escapes to Belgrade. The Sultan who's in Belgrade blames him and says, you put together a useless battle plan, which he probably did. The Grand Vizier blames his subordinates, particularly the Khan of the Crimea. But Mehmed Ivy orders him nonetheless to be strangled. And that is the end of our ostrich killing, Grand Vizier. Only a few days later, he himself is dead.

Martin Rady (45:31)

Is it also the end of Ottoman attempts to drive much further into Central Europe? What's the trajectory of the Empire after this?

Unknown Guest (45:40)

Essentially, you're right, it is almost the end because I think two years after the failure at Vienna, Mehmet IV is deposed and I think it's his brother that is put on the throne. Amazingly, Mehmet isn't killed. Normally if a Sultan's overthrown, he's murdered. Mehmet is allowed to live, although I think he's locked up in a tower. It's not quite the end. Podolia carries on under Turkish administration, but it's destroyed. At the end of the 17th century, the Peace of Karlowitz puts an end really to Ottoman pretensions north of the Danube. From now on, the Ottoman Empire will be in retreat is not sufficient explanation, it will be in disintegration, because from now on effective control over the Balkans is lost and the power is taken by these local notables, as they're called. And if the Sultan is going to do anything in the Balkans, it has to be in negotiation with these, the local Ayans, as they're called, the local power brokers. So Ottoman power has been broken on the battlefield. It's also been broken in terms of the military administration as well.

Martin Rady (47:13)

And then you get the strange 200 year death of the Ottoman Empire, a slow motion nightmare that lasts for generations.

Unknown Guest (47:22)

Yes, I mean, Even by about 1700, Eugene of Savoy is talking about the Eastern question. I think it's virtually those words. The question is what will replace the Ottomans, is something he says. And the fear is that it's going to be Russia. And it's Russia that starts to look to fill the Ottoman space. So everybody suddenly becomes concerned with propping up the Ottomans to prevent the Russians taking over. And of course the Russians are increasingly successful. I mean, Peter the Great is really involved in the north, but Catherine the Great starts advancing very significantly to the Crimea into Moldavia down the Black Sea coast. Within less than a century after the Battle of Vienna, the Russians are pressing onto the Danube. So that is the concern that people have afterwards. And why the Ottoman Empire survives is because it's a necessity.

Martin Rady (48:34)

Various other powers like the Brits try and prop it up. What an extraordinary tale. There's lots of legends and myths and moments that have derived from this siege. You've explained how you think it matters on the ground at the time. Actually very important. It's rather refreshing to talk to someone about the great decisive battle of history they think actually might have been decisive. Usually the fashion nowadays to say, oh, it's completely rather irrelevant. So a very serious strategic military consequence at the time. But what about its status as a sort of iconic moment?

Unknown Guest (49:04)

Well, I think it is iconic because what follows on is the clearing of Hungary. Hungary is cleared out of the Turks pretty much entirely within three years. Charles of Lorraine goes on to fight his way over the next few years down the Danube. Battle of Estegon, Battle of Vaarts, these type of things until he relieves or his subordinates relieve Buda in 1686. And after 150 years, Buda and Pesth become mischien again and pass under the control of the Habsburgs. And the Habsburgs press on. Leopold thinks he's got the advantage and moves into the Balkans and gets as far south as Skopje, which is the capital of what is now north Macedonia. He's only a couple of hundred kilometers from the Aegean, but his supply line is too long and he has to retreat. But what it means is that the Habsburgs are also flagging up their interest in the Balkan Peninsula. And that of course will be the big one with the Habsburgs and the Rhetians both vying for influence in the Balkans.

Martin Rady (50:28)

And there's a direct line from there to some damn fool thing happening in the Balkans in 1914 and the mighty upheavals of the 20th century. Yeah, extraordinary story. Can we. Let's quickly deal with one or two of the myths. Cause there's a few myths. Was the croissant invented as a. A symbolic crescent shaped pastry to celebrate victory over Islam?

Unknown Guest (50:51)

I don't think so. The other one is that they discover coffee for the first time. And in 1983 I went to the commemorative exhibition, anniversary exhibition in Vienna of the Battle of Vienna. And they were very keen to try and show that this really wasn't a confrontation of civilizations. They were going to learn something from one another. And the thing that they honed on was that people learned about coffee from the Battle of Vienna because some sacks of coffee beans were found. I mean, coffee was being used before that. It was sold in apothecary shops as a stimulant for bad nerves. So coffee's been known about before then. But that's one of the typical myths. And I think the croissant is the same.

Martin Rady (51:47)

It's amazing what you can learn about someone when you're beaten to death in a muddy trench with an entrenching tool.

Unknown Guest (51:52)

Yes, yes.

Martin Rady (51:53)

That's cultural exchange. Martin, that was. What an amazing story. Thank you very much for coming on and telling us all about that. Do tell us what the name of your book is.

Unknown Guest (52:01)

The book is the Middle Kingdoms, A New History of Central Europe.

Martin Rady (52:07)

Thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

Unknown Guest (52:09)

Thank you.

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