Jonathan Fields (5:38)

T minus 10 atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

Dan Snow (5:42)

God save the King.

Robert Ricks (5:43)

No black white unity till there is first and black unit never to go to war with one another again. And liftoff. And the shuttle has cleared the tower.

Dan Snow (5:56)

Robert, thank you so much for coming on this bizarre podcast.

Robert Ricks (5:59)

Well, thank you for having me, Dan. I mean, it's an honor to be here.

Dan Snow (6:03)

Let's go all the way back. Let's go all the way back. When do humans first set foot on Greenland? Any humans, no matter where they're from.

Robert Ricks (6:10)

First time human foot was set on Greenland is some 4,500 years ago. So these would be Paleo Arctic people who entered from what is now Canada into Greenland. So they were there on and off. And there was a number of people that we know about, the Dorset, the Tule people, and some of them would be ancestors of, of what's now as the Inuits indigenous population there.

Dan Snow (6:38)

Are they always on the move? Are they, are they putting down roots? In what sort of ways are they living?

Robert Ricks (6:43)

Yeah, these, these were nomads. So they would travel, they would have hunting grounds and they would move from place to place. So depending on whether it was summer or winter, they would go to different places in, in Greenland, they would be, you, you know, some places for an extended period of time, but then move on depending on where they could hunt. So that would be the case.

Dan Snow (7:03)

Robert, we should talk about that climate. It's pretty important in the Greenland story. It's a place where historically humans have been only just able to survive. A place right on the margin. So I imagine that every change in our climate, every degree, every fraction of a degree warmer or cooler, it really makes its mark on attempts to survive, to thrive in Greenland.

Robert Ricks (7:26)

Absolutely. Is very much an integral part of Greenland history. Basically, the only inhabitable parts of Greenland are the coastal areas. So these are ecological pockets. And you can do a little bit of farming there, as the Norse people would do, and you could live there sort of rather comfortably. But climate, as you say, was extremely important because when we get to the Middle Ages and the first sort of Norse settlements in Greenland, uh, they would come there because they could farm the land, they could have. And this was during the Medieval Warm Period. So a warm period between 950 and 1250, approximately. Um, so this will be a welcome climate at the time. And part of the reason why the Norse people left Greenland was also because it got increasingly colder in the 13th century.

Dan Snow (8:17)

Right, well, let's, let's get into that now. Let's get into the arrival of the first Europeans. What's your best guess about why and how people from Europe end up in Greenland?

Robert Ricks (8:26)

Well, at Least according to the sagas. I mean they are true. We know that the first person to really take an interest in Greenland was a very colorful character called Eric the Red. He was an Icelander and he was accused of murder. He got into other squabbles and at one point he was banished from, from Iceland and he sought out this place in Greenland, a place to settle. As he was banished for three years and thought this would be a place where I could establish new colony. So part of the propaganda exercise he, he sold this as the green land. And the sagas are quite clear about this, that this was to attract other settlers to come to Greenland. So this is 986, this is the year in the sagas given for Eric the Red settling on, on Greenland. And this led to quite expensive settlement, Norse settlement from Iceland in Greenland.

Dan Snow (9:23)

These are not sort of officially sanctioned, this is not officially government led colonization. This, these are freebooters heading across the ocean by themselves. Are they?

Robert Ricks (9:30)

Absolutely, absolutely. So there's no official colony of that sort. So this only sort of comes, comes later because the Norwegian king takes an interest in Greenland and at some points, and we know this to be 1261, King Haakon Haakonsson establishes Greenland as some kind of protectorate. Is little unclear from the sources what this meant, but if we take the parallel of Iceland, we know that this was really guaranteeing shipping routes which would obviously be important for trade. There may also been some kind of protection. We know that at least for Iceland, there was a number of English pirates who came there to fish in order to loot the coasts of Iceland. And presumably something similar could have happened in Greenland. At least there are stories told about this. And in some of the records we know that pirates did came to Greenland's coast and looted and presumably also kidnapped people.

Dan Snow (10:31)

You're not going to believe this, but here in Britain we're raised on stories of Scandinavian pirates, we call them Vikings. Are you trying to tell me the Norwegians are raised on stories of English pirates ravaging the coastline, taking slaves and taking booty away?

Robert Ricks (10:43)

Well, at least we know in the early 15th century there is a record of one of the leaders in Iceland was kidnapped. Kidnapped and he was in an English prison and he writes a letter to the English king at this time arguing that really the English pirates had wreaked havoc on the in Iceland. And we also know that at least eight Icelandic children were traded as slaves in Norfolk in 1429. So, so maybe not raised on these stories, but we can find documentation that English pirates did come to, to Greenland. So yes, kind of reverse Vikings.

Dan Snow (11:18)

So we got, as a result of Eric the Red, we have people originally who took their lineage back to Norway. They're now in this place, Greenland. It's not sort of government sanctioned initially. It's around the year ten hundred, so around a thousand years ago. Extraordinary. And how are they surviving? Are they bringing European methods of ways of life with them?

Robert Ricks (11:41)

They are fishing, they are hunting. Certainly there might have been a little bit of Eurocentrism there as well. And that might have been something that accelerated the exit from Greenland as well when it became a little colder because farming was also part of their trade. And that may have been a little more difficult as the climate got increasingly colder. So yes, they had sort of Eurocentric ways. We also know a little bit about, from archaeological digs they fashion they sported at the time, which was a European fashion. So they still kept in contact with, with mainland Europe throughout the colony's existence.

Dan Snow (12:21)

Eventually the Norwegians establish a kind of crown protectorate over the area.

Robert Ricks (12:28)

Yes they do. And this becomes part of the story of the Danish possession of, of, of, of Greenland. Because what happens in 1397, which is known as the Kelma Union, is that the Queen Margaret the first of Denmark, establishes some kind of counter move to the Hanseatic League. So these commercial and defensive network of merchant guilds and market towns in, in central northern Europe. In order to counter that, she establishes a Nordic community. So basically the kingdoms of Sweden, Denmark and Norway are united and they're under the Danish succession. So at that time the overseas colonies, the Norwegian overseas colonies are transferred to Denmark and that becomes really the origin story of why Denmark is now in, in possession or why it's a part of it, a part of Denmark today. Because of that, the unification of Norway and Denmark, I mean, continues obviously after the calmer union becomes defunct. And until 1814, Norway and Denmark are seen as a united. They are united kingdom under the Danish crown. And when Denmark has to cede Norway to Sweden in 1814 following a defeat in the Napoleonic wars, it's quite clear in the Kiel Treaty at the time that the overseas colonies, Norway, Iceland included, will still belong to Denmark.

Dan Snow (14:00)

Let's just finish off the story of those settlers for whom I'm sure Norway and Denmark were both a long way away. Does the colony sort of ever. Does it become lost? There's a bit of a sort of faintly romantic or mythological idea about the end of this colony. What happens to those settlers in Greenland?

Robert Ricks (14:18)

The communication with the settlers in Greenland discontinues after 1410. The last record we have of the Greenland colony is a ship leaving in 1410 after a wedding in the eastern settlement. And after that there are no records of any communication with Greenland. We simply don't know what is happening there. And it leads to all kinds of speculations. One speculation is that they all been killed because at this time, maybe it's important to emphasize that when the, when Eric the Red came to that southern part of Greenland, it was empty land, so didn't take the land from anyone. But over the centuries, the ancestors of the Inuit moved down from Canada to reach at least first the hunting grounds in the north and then later to the settlements in the south. And we do have records of skirmishes between the two peoples. So the most. There could have been some violence involved, which have made life even more difficult in the. In Greenland, in the Greenland colonies, pirates. The climate. Overfishing is also a possibility. After 1410, there would have been a colony there, but it probably would have discontinued around 1450, maybe a little later. We don't know how it came to an end that these are the bombastic visions, dystopian visions of the all the Norse Greenland is dying from the cold or from starvation. Probably that didn't happen that way. This was a time when the plague was in Europe and lands would have become available in Norway and in Iceland. So presumably some of these Norse Greenlanders just thought, well, there's a better option for me backing in Iceland. And they might have hitched the rides with a boat and went back to Iceland.

Dan Snow (16:09)

Fascinating. So the European people of European descent disappear from the Greenland story in around.

Robert Ricks (16:16)

1450, around about that time, yes.

Dan Snow (16:19)

Which is so tantalizing because it's just one or two. It's a generation before the Europeans will go back to the Americas, this time pursuing a very different route a long way to the south, but extraordinary. So it's almost this, this brief gap where the Americas are European free. When do Europeans return to Greenland?

Robert Ricks (16:38)

So there's several attempts to reach Greenland, but because of internal and domestic problems in Scandinavia, it doesn't actually really happen until the early 1600s. So King Christian IV launches three exhibits expeditions to. To Greenland. And this is basically to reclaim Greenland for Denmark. And it's still with this imagination that these rich colonies full of gold, full of resources and resources must really be the headline here, because as we move on this will also be a, a theme, a through line in, in much of what sort of Greenland, the Greenland significance for Europeans as resources. But this time Christian IV is interested in finding the eastern settlements because of resources, because of. But that is to say presumably fishing would still have taken place in the intervening years. At least we know when Denmark establishes a colony in 1721, there are several boats already trading with the indigenous Greenlanders. So when the Danes come there they realize that especially boats from the Netherlands have systematized trade along the coast. And that becomes a real problem and also a spur for the Danes to reenter Greenland because they need to get a check on this, this trade thinking that this is our land and we need to profit from it. So, so in 1721 is the recolonization of Greenland.

Dan Snow (18:13)

These ships are coming back with their holds full of, of raw materials, are they?

Robert Ricks (18:17)

Not at this time, No. I mean it's, it's quite a disappointment this fantasy alive that just beyond the horizon there's gold, there's something to be found. There's this kind of the forests of Greenland described in the old texts will there. We just need to reach that eastern settlement.

Dan Snow (18:33)

Is there also a sense like in the scramble for Africa later on, is there, is there a scramble for the Americas going on? Is there, is there a need, a need by, in European capitals to just start plant planting flags even if initially there isn't a strong economic argument for doing so?

Robert Ricks (18:50)

Absolutely. So go back to Christian iv and his 17th, early 17th century expeditions. I mean this was really brought on by the fact that Martin Frobisher the English explorer had reached what is now Canada and brought back what's initially is thought to be very precious metal but turned out just to be completely valueless or that had no, had no gold content in it. So it's, it is a competition at this time. It continues to be so. And certainly the Netherlands, also Britain which the buy for possession of Greenland, especially Greenland waters and whaling. It becomes increasingly important and we must think of the Greenland waters as some kind of almost the parallel of a modern day oil field. Because whale blubber is such a, A, a commodity that it is something that you really you, you do anything to gain sort of access to these waters. Because whale blubber is used for, for lamps, for oiling machinery. So it becomes an industry at this time to, to, to find whale blubber. And this is also what you trade with the indigenous Greenlanders. But whaling becomes so important at this time. So yes there is this European competition and everything the Danes do is to curtail any kind of other European involvement in Greenland and Greenland waters.

Dan Snow (20:20)

You're listening to Dan Snows history talking about Greenland. More coming up. Norway is joined to Sweden, but Denmark keeps Greenland.

Robert Ricks (20:37)

That's right. That's right.

Dan Snow (20:38)

In the 19th century, the Americans appear to have made an attempt to secure Greenland. Who'd have thought it? Tell me about that attempt.

Robert Ricks (20:47)

So we are in 1867, and there are numbers of very interesting parallels at this time because the US Secretary to State, William H. Stewart, who had just negotiated the purchase of Alaska for the U.S. he also has his eyes on three Danish islands, the, the. The West Indies. So that's St. Thomas, St. John and St. Croy. And that's been Danish colonies and been part of the triangular trade, trading sugar and. And slaves. But we're no longer profitable at this point. So there's this idea that the US could purchase these three islands from Denmark. And in this annexation frenzy, both Greenland and Iceland entered the discussion as a kind of way to guilt the expansionist Lily. And a report is produced at this time for the US Government and also published. And this is gushing over resources. So there's fishing, there's coal, and there's a mineral called cryolite, which we can come back to because very important. But there's another thing that's sort of an echo of history here, because if we just look at the. The recent pronouncements by Donald Trump that it's not only Greenland he wants to buy, he also wants to make Canada part of the. As a 51st state of the U. S. And this is also a point here in the report, because the report says that if Greenland could be bought for the US it would induce what's called a peaceful and cheerful handing over of Canada, what's now Canada, to the U.S. because it'll be sandwiched between Alaska, Greenland and the U.S. so this would surely make Canada a state of the U.S. so this is kind of. I've probably misattributed to Mark Twain where you say that history is rather fond of rhyming, but we certainly see a kind of. As Donald Trump in the same breath mentions Canada and Greenland, this is something that's been mentioned before.

Dan Snow (22:52)

Does that come to anything?

Robert Ricks (22:53)

It doesn't come to anything because the purchase of the three West Indies or the West Indian islands falls through. And at that point it's seen as that Greenland would probably not happen either. So an offer is never really made.

Dan Snow (23:09)

Through the rest of the 19th and early 20th century. What's the Greenland. What's the Greenland story?

Robert Ricks (23:16)

Well, there's a growing interest, American interest in. Throughout the century, the 20th century, early 20th century, an interest in Greenland. And to begin with, again, the theme is Resources. But increasingly it becomes security. And that's also how Trump sort of couches this today, that it's for security reasons. So we know that in 1910, at least, security takes center stage. There's at this time a fear among the Americans that the Prussian expansion may lead to a takeover of Denmark, and that would also mean the takeover of the three West Indian Islands. And since this is very close to the Panama Canal, it's thought that it would be a good idea to buy the West Indies. Now the calculus is that the Danes should be sweetened into selling the West Indies so it doesn't fall into the hands of Germany. So there's this scheme which is quite intricate, which is that Denmark should give over Greenland to the U.S. in return, Denmark should receive a southern group of the Philippines or islands in the Philippines. Denmark should then surrender these islands to Germany because Germany had an interest in becoming a leading power in that part of Asia. In return, Germany should give back Denmark the northern part of Sleswick, which had lost. So this is the idea. And after that, if the Americans could set this in motion, they thought that that would sweeten the Danes to then sell the. The West Indian Islands again, because that would mean that they could keep control of the Panama Canal. And they aren't sold at this time in 1910, but they are sold in 1917. And this is again a fear during the First World War that this could be used for German submarines. A submarine station could be constructed there. So, yes, in January 1917, the Danish government sells these island to the United States for 25 million kroner. And there's a interesting thing here because one of the conditions for selling the West Indies is that the US should acknowledge Denmark's right to Greenland, and US Falls short of ever doing that. But this was really part of the original demands, but it's never affected, never. It's never manifest in. In what happened at the.

Dan Snow (25:33)

So that's so fascinating. So what we now know is that the US Virgin Islands were in fact Danish territory that was sold in 1917.

Robert Ricks (25:41)

They were sold in 1917. And. And Greenland, I think, is still very much on the agenda. We had a few records of this, and we know that rumors were still banded about that U S would potentially buy Greenland at some point. So 1930, the Danish Prime Minister, Tolkien stowning, comes out actually saying very publicly, Greenland is not for sale. So we have been down this road before. So it's a kind of continuing interest from America in buying Greenland for security reasons.

Dan Snow (26:13)

So you mentioned security. Obviously, very important but also particularly the 20th century industrial exploitation of raw materials, looking for new centers of resource increasingly being seen as an economic asset as well.

Robert Ricks (26:27)

Certainly in the 20th century. And I just briefly mentioned cryolite, which is this rare mineral which has been mined in Greenland and commercially mined until 1987. Cryolite is used in the production of aluminum. And this becomes very important in the 20th century and certainly during the Second World War because it's made, it's used for manufacturing of fighter planes, for instance. So there's a huge trade with the US and after Denmark is invaded by Germany in 1940, it becomes very important to protect that production of cryolite. And so what happens here is that is a super interesting story. There's a, the Danish ambassador to the us, a guy called Henry Kaufman, he basically goes rogue because he, he strikes this deal with the US that the US could come in and protect the Danish colonies. This is obviously not what the Danish government wants at this time. They've been occupied by Germany, so they can't agree to this. So they basically accuse Kaufmann of high treason. But he does establish this agreement with the US that and US servicemen, they do travel to Greenland and protect especially the cryolite mine, but also some of the stations there, the airports. The fix there is that they basically resigned from service. And they then sign up as volunteers to create this fiction that the US is not in fact invading Greenland, but they do protect the, the mine there, the cry, the production of cryolites, which should not fall into the hands of the German. Obviously they also use the air bases there. So Greenland will be a hub for refueling from at least 10,000 planes. During the World War II landed in Greenland. It was also a place from where you could protect the ships going to Europe. So it becomes a very important place. Greenland. And one other little twist maybe is what's called the weather War. Basically on the east coast there were stations, weather stations, because being able to forecast the weather was extremely important for knowing when to launch a mission. It's also used for D day, obviously just a few days where the climate was clement enough to, to, to launch that mission. But throughout sort of the years of the war, there were Germans established weather stations. So the clandestine weather stations. Then the Danes or US established other weather stations so they could, could forecast the weather. Skirmishes there would shoot at each other. And that's known as the weather war. So for many reasons, tactical reasons, Greenland was extremely important during the Second World War and basically given over as a, as a US Protectorate during the time when The Danish government was hamstrung.

Dan Snow (29:24)

So that's a hectic few years. So the Americans who are effectively running Greenland, hand it back to Denmark at the end of the war and the Dane's like, thank you very much, now please leave. And the Americans like, well, we don't know. We're not going to leave. And until Denmark enters NATO. That's a curious position.

Robert Ricks (29:41)

It is a curious position. And there's this problem with the US presence and the US at this time already realizes that Greenland is extremely important.

Dan Snow (29:53)

And do they offer to buy it again at the end of the war? Is they chuck in a quick bid then, just in case.

Robert Ricks (29:58)

In 1946, the Secretary of State, James F. Burns, offers Denmark $100 million. This is under the Truman administration. They flirted with the idea of swapping Greenland for some of the oil rich land in Alaska. That never came through. And this has been kept as a secret, as it were, until recently.

Dan Snow (30:20)

Okay, so we've got Greenland then becomes a really essential part of the West NATO NORADs Anti ballistic missile posture. There's important bases there, there's monitoring stations there. I mean it's fully integrated into North American defense at that point.

Robert Ricks (30:40)

It is indeed. And what you have in Greenland at the moment is what's the Bieder Thick Space Base, which was formerly and perhaps better known as the Thule Air Base on the northwest coast built in 1951 and that still serves, as you say, as an early warning station for ballistic missiles. It also tracks satellites, hence the, the name space base. And it also aims to track and this becomes increasingly significant as the ice is melting in, in the Arctic to monitor Chinese and Russian ships off the coast. So, so yes, this base is very much part of the, part of American security. I think after Trump held this, this conference, Denmark has now stepped up its security investment in the Arctic. So they' the Arctic security. Because if Trump has a point, I mean this part of the world becomes significant. And, and I think had he couched this in slightly different terms to me, he said that this is what America needs. America needs to buy Greenland because we need to take care of American security interests. Had he said that, that this would be for the interest of the west. So for liberal democracies, this would have been perfectly aligned with the Danish and Greenlandic interests.

Dan Snow (31:54)

Meanwhile, what's going on with the, the relationship between Greenland and Denmark?

Robert Ricks (31:59)

Yeah, if we go back and to look at the, the constitutional arrangement in Ninth, if the Greenland is a colony of Denmark until 1953 when Greenland is incorporated into the Danish state. So this is something that's maintained to this day. There's, there's what's called the unity of the realm of the Danish realm really consists of, of, of three entities. So there's, there's Denmark proper, the mainland Denmark, there's Greenland and there's the Faroe islands. And in 1953, basically Greenland becomes a province. But the unity of the realm, in 1979, Greenland is granted its home rule and that's expanded in 2009 to become self rule. That means that Denmark or the Danish government has very little if any say in domestic issues in, in Greenland. So this is where Trump goes wrong because he says that Denmark should sell Greenland and that's simply not for Denmark to sell. And Greenland is completely devolved. Greenland Parliament has 31 members. So selling Greenland would first sort of entail a discussion between Greenland and Denmark about whether there should be independence, then independence should be ratified by some kind of referendum, and then the Greenlanders should decide to sell themselves to America. So it's simply not for the constitutional setup here is not for Denmark to sell Greenland. It's simply as impossible as it would be for Westminster to sell Scotland without any involvement of Holyrood.

Dan Snow (33:35)

Well, that's an interesting point. I guess it's the place to leave it that the Danish position is that the people of Greenland are effectively sovereign if they choose to pursue independence, for example. Example. There's nothing constitutionally to prevent Denmark from having that conversation.

Robert Ricks (33:49)

Absolutely. As of 2009, Greenland is given a way to achieve independence. Denmark also signed the Indigenous and Tribal peoples convention in 1996, which acknowledges the Inuit as a people and therefore also the inherent right to self determination. So it's basically in the agreement that if the Greenlanders want independence, they can have it. And I think this is the trajectory. I mean, this is what the Greenland people want. At least four out of five parties, political parties in Greenland, want independence. The problem is it'll be a bit of a rocky road simply because of the economy. So unless Greenland pivots the economy, perhaps with American investments in mining, it'll be very difficult. The Greenland economy is propped up by Danish, what's called a block grants, to the tune of 5.7 billion Danish krona, which is equivalent of 684 million pounds. So it's quite significant for a population of 56, 57,000 people. So it will be difficult to achieve independence straight away, but I think that is the long term prospect for many Greenlanders.

Dan Snow (35:06)

Thank you very much indeed for coming on the podcast and, and talking all about that. That's absolutely phenomenal. Tell everyone what your book is called for, which you've already been on the Gone Medieval podcast.

Robert Ricks (35:16)

That's right. That's right. The book is called the Vanished Settlers of Greenland In Search of a Legend and Its Legacy.

Dan Snow (35:22)

Well, thank you very much Robert Ricks for coming on the podcast.

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