Joe King of The Fray

Summary

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Teen Beat with Danielle Fishel: Joe King of The Fray

Podcast: Teen Beat
Host: Danielle Fishel (iHeartPodcasts)
Guest: Joe King (Vocalist/Guitarist, The Fray)
Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

Danielle Fishel welcomes Joe King, co-founder and guitarist of The Fray, to unpack his formative and often awkward teenage years growing up in Denver, Colorado. The episode explores King’s upbringing in a pastor's household, the humble beginnings of The Fray, the influence of church music on his songwriting, his journey through rebellion, and the band’s evolution from local gigs to international fame. The conversation is equal parts nostalgia and insight, filled with candid stories, self-deprecating humor, and practical wisdom about music, identity, and chasing your passion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growing Up in Denver: Culture, Family, and Church

• Denver’s Evolution: Joe describes Denver's transformation from a sports town to an artist-friendly, vibrant music scene.
  • "Growing up...if you weren't a Broncos fan, you were gonna have to run from people...But then it became very artist friendly because Denverites love going to see live music, coupled with the fact that some of the best venues in the world are there." (06:09)
  • Recommends Red Rocks as a must-experience venue (06:52)
• Family Background: Youngest of five; father was a pastor, mother a nurse (09:10)
  • Early exposure to church music and its emotional/melodic universality
  • Financial struggles in a preacher's family fostered work ethic:
    "I remember having a newspaper route in the second grade...help pay for soccer gear." (10:15)

2. Navigating Faith, Identity, and Teenage Rebellion

• Expectations as a Pastor’s Kid: Pressure to “be a version that would make my parents proud or make God proud.” (11:14)
• Rebellion Years:
  • "I went to the dark side...through junior high years, early high school was in a lot of trouble." (11:36)
  • Skilled at not getting caught: "What I got good at was not getting caught." (12:18)
• Growing Responsibility: Early work taught appreciation for material things. Grocery shopping with his mom and saving coupons became a cherished memory and lesson in gratitude. (14:15)

3. Discovering Music, Songwriting, and The Origins of The Fray

• Musical Roots: Not from a musical family, but church music left a deep impression, helping him develop a songwriter’s mindset. (08:18)
• First Band & Songwriting:
  • Inspired by Nirvana; first transformative listen of "Smells Like Teen Spirit."
    "I started to like, shake, vibrate and my heart rate was racing." (20:38)
  • Received his first guitar from his aunt; unlocking his creative drive (21:56, 23:04)
  • Talks about the importance of adults providing opportunities for kids to try new things
• Parental Support & Musical Boundaries:
  • His dad eventually left pastoring due to burnout. Joe started with church praise bands but craved more freedom in music. (19:53)
• First Bands:
  • Competed with co-founder Isaac Slade in high school; reunited years later serendipitously at a Guitar Center—leading to The Fray (33:07-35:01)
  • "Did we just fall in love?"—describing their instant creative chemistry (35:34)

4. Breaking Out: Early Hustle and Unique Marketing

• DIY promotion:
  • Old school—flyers at Kinko's, papering every inch of town, and burning CDs with their phone number hand-written for networking (36:32–37:39)
  • Relentlessly called venues for openings: "I'm gonna call every venue...I will say, I'll call them. I'll call the promoter...I'll bring 50 people." (38:09)
• MySpace Era: A nod to 2000s nostalgia with Top 8 shout-outs and first crushes (39:12)

5. Labels, Genres, and the “Christian Rock” Misconception

• Refusal to Be Pigeonholed:
  • Band intentionally distanced itself from Christian rock, despite origins in church music:
    "We were very intentional about not being a Christian band...Because it was...I needed my art to be free and my songs to be for everyone and not to have an answer." (28:13)
  • Recounts early industry label interest: Sparrow Records—a Christian label—declined to sign them, sparing them the dilemma of conforming creatively (31:41)
  • On the infamous “JPM” (Jesus Per Minute) metric: "We had zero JPMs...In fact, it was negative." (31:34)
• Genre Labels: Labeled pop punk, but King shrugs it off:
  "However you want to pigeon us...We never belong in a category." (40:43)
  • Cites being hard to categorize as a compliment (41:54)

6. Breakout Moment: "How to Save a Life" and Grey’s Anatomy

• Radio and TV Breakthrough:
  • Early hustle included personally calling radio stations and promoting singles; earned first “rotation” radio play listening as a group in the family minivan (46:35)
  • "We jumped out in the grass and we're just starting to dance and we're like, oh, we just heard our song on the radio." (47:13)
  • Licensing “How to Save a Life” to Grey’s Anatomy was a turning point, causing a “frenzy” of attention (46:02, 49:02)
  • Joe’s grandmother’s excitement:
    "Joey, I heard your song on Grey’s Anatomy. She was so excited and so proud..." (49:43)
• Debate Over “Selling Out":
  • At the time, musicians feared losing “integrity” by licensing songs—but now it’s applauded (51:08, 51:36)
  • “We wrote them because they were true” (52:59)

7. Reflections on Longevity and Evolving as Artists

• Touring Then vs. Now:
  • Perspective shift: Now less worried about perceptions or fleeting fun, more focused on self-care and fan experiences
    "If I want to have a longevity here...I want to do this into my, like, 70s, pray to God we can...I want to sing these songs for the rest of my life." (59:38)
  • Highlights unique relationships and collaborations with artists met through touring/radio shows (55:29, 56:10)
• Revisiting Old Songs & Writing New Ones:
  • Writing remains rooted in authenticity rather than recapturing past success
    "I just have to write what's true...that’s all we did at the beginning and that’s all we’re doing now is just, like, release what’s true, what we love.” (57:05)
  • Pride in the body of work and excitement for the future, including world tours and the new album “A Light That Waits” (57:05, episode close)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Church Music’s Impact:
  • "There's also like, I've met so many artists along the way that have come up in the church...maybe there's a pop sensibility...because they need to be songs that people can sing right away." — Joe King (08:18)
• On Teenage Rebellion:
  • "I went to the dark side. For years I rebelled. I became good at it." — Joe King (11:36)
• On Music Inspiration:
  • "It just took someone giving me an instrument...and it changes the course of your life." — Joe King (22:33)
• On Genre Labels:
  • "We always just never belong in a category...they didn’t know how to put our song. Is this in the pop group performance? Is this rock? We were in rock, we were in pop..." — Joe King (41:07)
• On “How to Save a Life” in Grey’s Anatomy:
  • "My grandmother called me...she was so excited and so proud. That was the first call." (49:43)
• On Longevity:
  • "It’s geeky, but if I want to have longevity here...I want to sing these songs for the rest of my life." — Joe King (59:38)
• On Advice to Young Artists:
  • "If you don't try, you'll definitely never know." — Joe King (23:56)

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction and Denver Beginnings — [04:52–08:09]
• Growing Up Pastor’s Kid & Teenage Rebellion — [08:09–13:19]
• First Guitar, Early Songwriting — [21:56–25:17]
• Reconnecting with Isaac Slade & Formation of The Fray — [33:07–35:49]
• Promoting Early Music (DIY Hustle) — [36:32–38:27]
• Christian Rock Misconception and JPMs — [28:13–32:40]
• Boiling Down the Band’s Genre — [40:43–41:54]
• Breakthrough via Radio & Grey’s Anatomy — [46:02–49:51]
• Debate Over Selling Out/Sync Licensing — [51:08–52:59]
• Reacting to Jingle Ball 2009 Lineup — [53:49–55:17]
• Touring Then vs. Now: Evolving Perspective — [59:08–60:12]

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Tone & Chemistry

Playful, nostalgic, and candid; Danielle sets a fun, confessional tone with self-deprecating humor and authentic curiosity. Joe matches with warmth, openness, and a sense of gratitude for both the awkward and extraordinary chapters of his life.

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For Further Listening

• The Fray’s new album: A Light That Waits
• Summer of Light Tour (with Dashboard Confessional)

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This episode is a resonant journey through the adolescence and artistry of Joe King, offering valuable lessons to artists and nostalgic comfort to fans alike.

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Transcript

[Danielle Fishel]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human

[Joe King]

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[Robert Smigel]

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[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Hey guys, it's us, the Jonas Brothers.

[Joe King]

I'm Joe.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called hey Jonas.

[Joe King]

We invented a podcast.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Well, we didn't invent it, we. We just contributed to it.

[Joe King]

First people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Just listen.

[Joe King]

We don't care where you hear it.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier this week. My guests SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter.

[Joe King]

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

[Robert Smigel]

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your PODC podcasts.

[Joe King]

I stay the night and one night we can two or three years.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

The kids are not all right, but

[Danielle Fishel]

that's okay cause no one here is Take me. Hello. It is time for another podcast episode. So let's teen the beat around. Nope, I'm embarrassed I even tried that one. Okay, back to the drawing board. It's Danielle Fishel and this is Teen Beat. A podcast where I interview interesting people about their teenage years, a time where they were possibly a little less interesting. I'm looking to connect with these celebrities and get the awkward truth, the embarrassing underbelly of life before the fame, the when pimples and getting your driver's license were your biggest concerns. And yes, face all these challenges while beamed to millions of households as the female lead on a beloved family sitcom. That was my life. So I see it like this. I gave you my childhood. It's time we hear yours. And my guest this week turned his Denver, Colorado church upbringing playing in bands with classmates into a multi platinum Grammy nominated career with songs that can bring you right back to an exact moment in your with just a few opening notes. His band's debut album, 2005's how to Save a Life, went quadruple platinum and was part of a movement that bridged the gap for spiritually Christian rock music to enter the mainstream, a feat once considered totally impossible. Their biggest hit, the title track off the album how to Save a Life, became an all out aughts banger when it was first featured on both an episode of Grey's Anatomy, then as the music for its upcoming season premiere promo for a massive musical achievement back when TV meant something. The song peaked at number three on the charts and tied Carlos Santana's Smooth as the seventh longest charting single at the time with 58 consecutive weeks. They've survived rotating members, hiatus, exhaustion, numerous stages of the music industry, and I bet some sort of natural disaster. So to have celebrated the 20th anniversary of that first record with an international tour in 2025 and now a brand new album, A Light that Waits, available to stream everywhere. But even with all that musical success, I feel like behind the instrument and emotional lyrics there could just be an awkward teen ready to chat. And so this week I'm excited to welcome to the newest episode of Teen Beat, vocalist and guitarist of the Fray, Joe King.

[Joe King]

Hello.

[Danielle Fishel]

Hello.

[Joe King]

Thank you for having me.

[Danielle Fishel]

Thank you so much for being here. Listen, when iheart said to me that there was even the possibility that I could interview you, I was like, drop everything, clear my schedule, please make it happen.

[Joe King]

Did they say he's very awkward so this will work?

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, they did not.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

And so I've had a couple of minutes to chat with you. You don't strike me as awkward.

[Joe King]

Oh, I lean into it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Do you? You embrace the awkward.

[Joe King]

Absolutely. I think actually it was beautifully written by the way, that introduction. Thank you. That was wonderful.

[Danielle Fishel]

You are deserving of. Isn't it cool to hear your accomplishments like read Back to you.

[Joe King]

I just learned things too, like, oh, we did survive natural disasters. Am I exhausted still?

[Danielle Fishel]

I know I threw in the exhaustion because I feel like at least at my age, it's just everyone's a little exhausted.

[Joe King]

Right? Yeah, it's. Yeah. So I promise to. To be awkward today. Okay. And we'll. Let's just take, you know, take it where it goes.

[Danielle Fishel]

I love it. Let's first start with Denver.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

You were born and raised in Colorado. As a California native, we were told that everyone who lives there was either a major hippie or Dikembe Mutombo. So where did you fall on that? Sc?

[Joe King]

Well, Denver. I mean, it's changed so much, right, since I was a little one. And it was just more of a sports town for a while growing up. I mean, it was like if you weren't a Broncos fan, you were gonna have to run from people. So you needed to rep the Broncos. Which I still do proudly.

[Danielle Fishel]

Good.

[Joe King]

But then it became very artist friendly town and more of a music forward town because I think, because first off, the love to go see music, like Denverites love going to see live music, coupled with the fact that some of the best venues in the world are there. I mean, I don't know if you've been to Red Rocks.

[Danielle Fishel]

I have not been there.

[Joe King]

You have to go see a show at Red Rocks. Everyone listening to this, go see. Go like, look up your favorite artist and go see a show at Red Rocks. It's legendary. It's been around. It was a natural amphitheater. It was basically used for church services before amplification. So they would sing.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've heard Grateful Dead recordings there.

[Joe King]

Oh, yeah. I mean, the Beatles have played there. Johnny Cash. I mean, the history's on the walls backstage. So anyway, the venues in Denver provide like, you know, just for live music and people love going. And so being an artist from there, I mean, it was always our dream to play Red Rocks, you know. But yeah, we started there and, you know, like I said, Denver became more of a music town. And then you've seen like over the years, you've seen artists come out of Denver every couple years. It was like, well, Big Head Todd was early samples and then we came on the scene there. And then from that point it was like there's a bank. A group called 303 Flobots. I don't know if you remember.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh yeah, Flobots.

[Joe King]

Yeah, they were Denver and then Nathaniel Raf and then Lumineers guys lived there. So it's just a beautiful scene. It's a beautiful place to be as an artist because there's hometown pride.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's really great. Your dad was a pastor.

[Joe King]

He was.

[Danielle Fishel]

So did you grow up in church music? Were either of your parents. Parents musical?

[Joe King]

They weren't musical. There was always church music.

[Debbie Brown]

Right.

[Joe King]

And yes, that was. I was exposed to early as a kid. And honestly, some of those old hymns and old praise songs are gorgeous, like, heart wrenchingly gorgeous. And melodically and even lyrically are very universal. Yeah. And you know, so that I think there's, there's also like, I've met so many artists along the way that, that have come up in the church, you know, grew up in the church and learned how to, you know, learned how to play church songs and.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And there's something there with it. I don't know what it is in the water of, of these songs. It maybe like there's a pop sensibility or something in, in church songs because if you think about it, like, they need to be songs that people can sing right away.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Right. And they need to be lyrics that people can, you know, connect to and emotionally, like, attached to. So I don't know, there was elements there that maybe was like preparing me for songwriting in general. But yeah, that was, that was some of my background in the church.

[Danielle Fishel]

What was it like having a pastor for a father as a kid?

[Joe King]

That's been a journey to work through that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Has it?

[Joe King]

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, there's, you know, it's. I couldn't, you know, couldn't be myself. I loved, I loved my childhood. Don't get me wrong. I do. Like, so I was so proud. I'm so proud of my dad and my mom for how they navigated life. I mean, I was the youngest of five kids. You know, pastors don't make a lot of money.

[Danielle Fishel]

No, they're definitely not doing it because they want to make a bunch of bank.

[Joe King]

You're not, you're there because you're hard, you know, and you feel a greater purpose. So I knew that there was a great a purpose there.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, but it was a, it was a struggle for the family to, to, to pay the bills.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

My mom was really the, the breadwinner. She was a, A nurse. So, you know, it, it, it ended up teaching me a lot. First off, because, you know, we had to contribute early, like to helping pay for soccer gear or sports stuff. So I remember having a, you know, newspaper route in the second grade and my brother and I would go out before school. We had it country you know, from second to sixth grade, delivering papers in the morning, you know, and, you know, you make a little money.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

And that would help pay for, you know, cleats and.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And bags. So, you know. Yeah, it was, the financial aspect was, it was a struggle. And I saw that as I, as I got older in my dad and it taking a toll on him that he was giving his life to, to help people, but yet his family was struggling.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And outside of that, being raised in the church. Yeah. Like I said, I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin because I felt like I had to be maybe a version that would make my parents proud or make God proud.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. And held to a higher standard maybe also by everyone in the community. Because you're a reflection of him.

[Joe King]

Right. So then I went to the dark side. Were years you rebelled. I, I did. I became good at, at it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

And you know, through junior high years, early high school was in a lot of trouble.

[Danielle Fishel]

Really?

[Joe King]

Yeah. And it just was something in me.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

I, I, I needed. I don't know if it was the adrenaline, but doing things that I knew I wasn't supposed to do gave me this, like, this energy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And I was surrounded by friends that were wanting to do the same thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

But what I got good at was not getting caught.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. See, that's where you and I are so different. I got caught all the time.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Anytime I tried anything, I was immediately caught. I was terrible at getting away with anything.

[Joe King]

But they just see it on your face.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Both see it on my face. And also my mom was just like, very in tune. You said you were the youngest of five. So 1. The babies of the family are always reckless.

[Joe King]

I think you're right for sure.

[Danielle Fishel]

They're just like, what do I have to lose? I've got too many parents. Cause all your siblings feel like adults to you too. And so, yeah, I think the first real bad thing I ever did was smoke a cigarette. And I think I didn't even bother to try to not smell like it. My mom just knew right away. Like, I can smell you. You smell like smoke. Like, I was just bad at getting away with things. So I'm envious that you knew how to hide.

[Joe King]

I don't know if it's the youngest thing, and I certainly had to work on that in my adult life. Like, oh, it's actually not good to hide.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to be great at that.

[Joe King]

Don't want to be good at that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Only when you're a kid. Does it pay off?

[Joe King]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

And so only sometimes.

[Joe King]

And it did, literally. Because. Yeah. Speaking of cigarettes, there were grocery stores that I would go to, and in the aisles, they still had, like, chewing tobacco, not behind the counter.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow. Okay. Yeah.

[Joe King]

And so I wore big jackets and would slip those big packages in my jacket and walk out and then sell them.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Making a profit. You were an entrepreneur.

[Joe King]

I mean, I was trying to contribute to the family.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly. Did it also make you working from the time you were in second grade and saying it was going to things like cleats? Did it make you more discerning about what you wanted to try? Like what you. What was like you wanted to play soccer or baseball? Because you're like, I have. This is my money. I'm working hard for this.

[Joe King]

There is something to it. Cause I didn't take it for granted. I knew that, like, okay, these cleats, these Copa Adidas. Copas that I just bought with like, kangaroo leather.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

Like, I earn those and I want to take care of those. And I'm going to polish them.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And I'm going to keep them clean. And I was proud of those cleaves. So.

[Danielle Fishel]

Should be.

[Joe King]

There's something. There's something in that, you know, that it. It taught me to appreciation.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Of. Of things. And. And also maybe to the generation, too. You know, I remember going with my mom to the grocery store. We. She would save coupons.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

We'd have. She'd have like every week she'd have a stack of coupons.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

That she'd cut out from mailers from magazine, you know, all this stuff. So I'd go with her and it was my task to go with her to the grocery store and find these

[Danielle Fishel]

items that were in the coupon sale. That's what we're buying this week because we've got a coupon for it.

[Joe King]

Right. And then, you know, my reward was this chocolate pie at the end of it, which were like those. Those like crusted. I don't like almost calzone esque.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you're talking about.

[Joe King]

Like an apple, only 25 cents. Yeah. You know, at the time. And like, I was so excited to get that chocolate pie.

[Danielle Fishel]

Aw, that's so cute.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

I love that.

[Danielle Fishel]

My. One of my chores growing up was I had to cook dinner with my mom every night. So I had a stay. My mom was a stay at home mom. And so she, you know, cleaned the house every day. She made dinner every night. And I would come home from school and have to clean up the Dog poop in the backyard, everyone's favorite chore. And then come in, get cleaned up. And then time to help my mom make dinner. And at the time, I remember thinking, oh, why do I have to help make dinner? And in hindsight, it's some of my favorite memories with my mom, because all we would do, just talk the whole time, cut the vegetables, boil the water, and then just share about our days. And it's probably exactly how she knew the minute I did anything wrong. Then as a teenager, because she had been locked in with me every night while we cooked, she just knew me too well, right?

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

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[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news?

[Joe King]

Huge news.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

We created our own podcast called hey Jonas.

[Joe King]

We invented a podcast.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Well, we didn't invent it, we. We just contributed to it.

[Joe King]

First people to do podcasts.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Pretty. Yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how did we. How do we actually come up with the name hey Jonas? Guys, I honestly don't remember.

[Joe King]

I think it was on a call

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

about what we should call it and well, we were thinking. I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes, I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing a bit for the podcast. People could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad hey Jonas. And offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that. Guys, listen to hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen.

[Joe King]

We don't care where you hear it.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week. My guests SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter.

[Joe King]

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

[Robert Smigel]

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Fishel]

The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection.

[Debbie Brown]

This mental health awareness month, tune into the podcast Deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self discipline, discovery, and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well being, and the practices that help you find clarity, peace and self mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming.

[Danielle Fishel]

The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected, we're becoming more individualized, but we actually

[Debbie Brown]

need people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you. To hear more. Listen to Deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was your dad a fan of your music? Is your dad a fan of your music?

[Joe King]

You know, that was an interesting process journey there too, you know. Cause I. Through high school, I started to like, lead the praise band, you know, at, at my school and at church. My dad stopped pastoring when I was in eighth grade.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

And. And just transitioned into a different point of life. He, honestly, he got burned out from what I, what I talked about. He just could not, you know, couldn't deal with not providing anymore for, for the fam. So he stepped away, pivoted. But, you know, the church was always, you know, important still. But anyway, like I, Yeah, I started playing church songs and then I wanted to start a band, you know. And so in ninth grade, I started my first band.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow.

[Joe King]

Ninth grade we were, we were called. Well, it was after I heard there was a band called Nirvana.

[Danielle Fishel]

Of course, you may have heard of them.

[Joe King]

Yeah, you may have heard. Because I had older siblings, I was exposed to, you know, music.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

At a younger age. And I loved like, what they were listening to. And I remember my brother having his friends over and they put on Nevermind, Smells Like Teen Spirit. It was in the wintertime and I heard this song and I started to like, shake, vibrate and my heart rate was racing and I couldn't help myself. And after that song ended, I remember running upstairs in my underwear and immediately running out into the backyard, which was covered with about 6 inches of snow, and just dove in the snow.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And rolled around.

[Danielle Fishel]

I Don't know why I just said that.

[Joe King]

What am I doing? But I'm feeling something here. And I didn't put it together at that point, but at that it just lit something in me. They're like, I want to be in a band, I want to start a band. And so it was within a year, so ninth grade, so I started my first band, started writing songs, started playing songs anywhere, you know, I could, we could as a band. It was like, you know, our, our you know, friends party at their mom's house or whatever.

[Danielle Fishel]

And how did you know how to start writing songs? Like what was that process for you? Because like I don't know the first thing about writing a song.

[Joe King]

Honestly, I didn't, I didn't know I was a songwriter until my aunt gave me a guitar. And that was in the eighth grade, shortly after Nirvana. First song I learned was Come as you are. But once she gave me the guitar, I couldn't stop, I couldn't put it down. And it just, I just started writing, writing, you know, learned, learned Nirvana and then I just started writing songs. So it just wasn't like a thought out thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

But also it's interesting because I didn't know that I was, that I was supposed to do that.

[Danielle Fishel]

That. Right.

[Joe King]

It just, it's interesting when I, when I look back, even talking about it now that like it took someone giving me an instrument.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, or, or like providing something, you know, in life that you weren't expecting.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And, and it changes the course of your life.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was it a new guitar? Was it one of her guitars?

[Joe King]

It was just, it was a, it was a, it was called a Franciscan. Just a acoustic guitar. Like not expensive, like just kind of a cheap one.

[Danielle Fishel]

Have you ever asked her what made her think like, you know what I mean?

[Joe King]

I have thanked her a thousand times and she is such a wonderful light to this day and in my life and she feels like this sense of like, you know, pride too and shared story that like she influenced, you know, me becoming a musician by giving me an instrument. And that's also something that like, you know, I've wanted to help when I can. Like I went back to my middle school for instance, you know, know a few years back and tried to like, you know, talk, talk to the kids about music. Talked about like, you know, instruments and just like getting an instrument in kids hands, like give them the opportunity to like pick up something.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

And, and play just to see. Because like you don't know in life until you try, you know. And like if you don't try, you'll definitely never know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

So, yeah, it was. It was. It was. It was a lucky gift that she gave me.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's great. I feel such a sense of responsibility. I have two boys. I have a seven year old and an almost five year old. And I realized for my mom, my mom growing up, loved makeup. And had she not been the child of two immigrant parents who thought that corporate America was where you needed to be if you were gonna be anything in this life, you needed to be in corporate America. The idea, if she had said she wanted to be a makeup artist would have been so immediately shut down, but she literally didn't even. That was an option. And, like, the sense of responsibility when you realize that kids only know what their options are if you kind of reveal it to them, like, you know, providing opportunity to say, hey, you want to play this? You want to see if this is interesting to you? Like, thank God your aunt thought that for you. And look what came pouring out of you after.

[Joe King]

It's pretty amazing. It's so true. So. And it does. It takes other people. I think you can't see yourself clearly.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, Right.

[Joe King]

Like, we're kind of blinded to who we. Who we. Who we are in some ways. And then others can see it before you can. And, like. And they either recognize it or they tell you or they give you.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And it changes your life.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Because then you see yourself clearly, like, oh, I am a musician. Oh, I just needed this guitar.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

Were you ever sneaking CDs around? Was there any music, music your parents did not want you to listen to that you had to listen to?

[Joe King]

So, yes, I was around church music. That doesn't mean I was listening to church music. They had no idea what I was listening to.

[Danielle Fishel]

What were you listening to?

[Joe King]

Junior high Years was all west coast rap.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, the best.

[Joe King]

Yeah, that's what years was that for you? That was like nwa. Okay, that was Dre. That era. And it. It was on my Walkman all the time.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep, Yep.

[Joe King]

Y. And loved it. So they had no idea that Bitches Ain't Shit, you know, was my go to song before math class.

[Danielle Fishel]

Don't worry, they don't listen to this podcast, so you're good. My favorite album was Doggy Style. Snoop Doggs Doggy Style. And we. I had a family reunion in San Luis Obispo, and it was the first year I started driving, so it was like 1997, and I was in my Toyota 4Runner and I had my windows down. I just blasting that Music. And I look back in hindsight and I think, yeah, I can understand why my parents were like, oh, is this. This is what you want to listen to? But boy, it was the best of the best. Just so much fun, you know, The Fray and Boy Meets World do share a source of inspiration.

[Joe King]

What do we got?

[Danielle Fishel]

Counting Crows.

[Joe King]

Ooh. I mean, how great? And like, still great.

[Danielle Fishel]

So great.

[Joe King]

I am a fan of, well, any band that's doing it, to be honest. And longevity in a band is so difficult to stay, to keep creating, to keep getting through all this that you said the natural disasters, the personal disasters, the collective disasters, egos. So it's just. It's multiple marriages in one and navigating. That is. That's why all brands break up, change, or evolve, you know, and we did all three of those things.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, adapting is one of the hardest things that an entity can do, especially while maintaining integrity. Because how do you maintain integrity in an ever changing world and trying to find where, like you said, we don't necessarily see ourselves. So even then, as a band or an artist, to see how your artistry has its own place in an ever changing landscape, it's a lot. So you're right. Anytime a band can do it and do it successfully for decades, they deserve credit 100%. Growing up in the church, what were your thoughts on Christian rock?

[Joe King]

So that's probably one of the bigger misconceptions of our band is that we were not a Christian band. That was never the intention. Fact. We were very intentional about not being a Christian. Not being a Christian band. Because. Because it was, you know, it was first off, when I. When I was writing these songs, I would. Early on, I would try them at church, and they did not work.

[Danielle Fishel]

They weren't landing. You're like, this is how I know is not a good one.

[Joe King]

I was like, why don't they get it? Why don't they question anything? You know, like, am I the only one that's questioning this? Like, what's going on? And I. I just realized that at that time, questioning wasn't really allowed.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And I needed my art to be free and my songs to be for everyone and not to have an answer.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right?

[Joe King]

And so I realized I want to. I want to write these songs. We want to. We want to start this band and we want this music to be real and not the church music isn't real. I'm not saying that Christian rock isn't real. That's, that's. That's true. And it serves a purpose Yep. You know, for me and for us, we just had more questions.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

Than we had answers. So those early records were all about questions. And in a way, I mean, if you look at music in general or, you know, rock, papara, whatever, there's a sense of rebellion. And for us, our rebellion was, we're not in the church doing this. If the church wants to come, they can come to the bar and see us play.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

You know, because we want everybody to be able to see this. And that was hard for my parents at first, you know. Cause I think that they thought maybe I'd be the one leading church service for 40 years, playing songs every Sunday. And when they heard some of those early songs about, you know, questions, it's a little uncomfortable.

[Danielle Fishel]

Scary. Yeah.

[Joe King]

Because it kind of shakes. Shakes up some things.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Shakes your foundation. Yeah.

[Joe King]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was, you know, so that is a misconception. A bit of the band. And that's okay. I mean, there's been other bands, the same type of thing. I mean, Katy Perry was, you know, started that way, and she evolved. And, you know, One Republic that are good friends of mine, Ryan, you know, we've talked about it a bunch. And, you know, so even Kings of Leon guys like, those guys came from, you know, a preacher. Preacher background. And, you know, you realize, like, okay, like, what do you. Who are you? What. What do you want to say?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

So, yeah, that was. That was a bit of the story, I think, for us.

[Danielle Fishel]

I think hearing you talk about that was making me think, like, the same way. So there's like, the rock title, and then under the rock title, you get Christian rock over here. And then you get, like, what you guys were doing. It's a little like Boy Meets. It's like a sitcom. You guys were like, we don't want to be a sitcom. You know, like, Christian rock has a moral, and it's wrapped up really nicely in 22 minutes.

[Joe King]

Well, there was a thing called JPMS. Have you ever heard of that? No. In the Christian scene at that time, if you were considered to be a Christian artist, you had to have a certain amount of Jesus per minute references.

[Danielle Fishel]

Jesus per minute.

[Joe King]

We had zero JPMs.

[Danielle Fishel]

Zero JPMs, Mom.

[Joe King]

In fact, it was negative. It was like, what question is that?

[Danielle Fishel]

There's even been a goddamn in there.

[Joe King]

We negative 50 jpms. Yeah, but I remember, like, the first. Actually, it was interesting. The first label that came to check us out was a Christian label.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

And we were playing a show in Denver, and they. After the show, you know, we went out and hung for a bit. And then it was like a couple days later, they circled back and we were just curious. And the label was called Sparrow. And they circled back and they were like, you know, we're just. It's just not, you know, not our thing. And so, you know, we're gonna pass. And we were. That was interesting because if they would have offered something, it would have been hard to not look at it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, right. You would have really been faced with like, do we throw in a couple jpms?

[Joe King]

Do we? Exactly. To get the deal.

[Danielle Fishel]

Just.

[Debbie Brown]

Just.

[Joe King]

Just, you know, lowercase Js, little subtle Js.

[Danielle Fishel]

Just every now and then a J,

[Joe King]

you know, just a slight left J. Just to get that, you know, just to quit our jobs, you know.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

So. But they passed. And that was interesting because we didn't have to make the decision at all. Yeah, it's like, see. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

We're gonna. We're gonna do better.

[Danielle Fishel]

We're gonna do better without you. So in high school, that's where you meet Isaac Slade, right?

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. And he is a co founder of the band.

[Joe King]

He is, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. And so what was. How did you. Were you guys friends right away?

[Joe King]

We had competing bands in high school.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, I need a competing band story.

[Joe King]

I mean, my band was way better, of course. Yeah, yeah. You know, they opened for us.

[Danielle Fishel]

Let's just see.

[Joe King]

They were more Js, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

They had more Js.

[Danielle Fishel]

They were high on the JPM limits.

[Joe King]

He. The J land. For sure. No, we were in competing bands. And I. But I, like, had so much respect for him. He was one grade younger. And in that era, it's like. That felt like a lot. Like a big difference.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. When you're 14 and someone's 13, you're like, O. He's a kid.

[Joe King]

Yeah. So, you know, we were. We were friends, but not close. In high school and then, you know, out of high school, didn't talk for, you know, until I ran into him. Ran. It was a random day, but it was probably three and a half. Three and a half years. At four years out of high school, my band had naturally fallen apart, of course, because the drummer had to go to college.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And I had to work.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And. Yeah, exactly. And so I was just, like, trying to figure out, like, what am I gonna do how, like, I want to play music? I don't know how I'm gonna do this. And I just was writing songs and knew I needed to somehow stay in it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Joe King]

And whatever that meant at the time, Was just keep writing and, you know, maybe, like, go to shows and talk to people. And so this. This specific day that absolutely changed my life was. I went. I was. Went to the. A guitar center. It was a music shop.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe King]

And it came out of a place of just curiosity. I was just going to look at instruments that day and just go hang around. Around.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And went in, played some guitars, and then saw Isaac walking around. I was like, dude, what's up, man?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Hello.

[Joe King]

Hadn't seen him for three and a half years or whatever. Four years. He's like, hey. I was like, dude, what are you. What are you doing? Like, he's like, I'm just writing. I was like, me too. Well, should we write? Do you want to write something? Like, should we hang out next week? He's like, sure.

[Danielle Fishel]

So, so cute that, like, three or four years after high school, we'd be like, you want to be friends?

[Joe King]

Yeah. And we, you know, got together the next week. He played a song, I played a song, and it was just like one of those, like, oh, yeah, you got that. Oh, let me show you something. Like, trying to impress each other.

[Danielle Fishel]

Of course. Of course. Competing bands, man.

[Joe King]

For sure. And then we just, you know, we just started writing, and it was fire. It was just one of those, like, did we just fall in love?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, this was special.

[Joe King]

Did just. This just happened.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow.

[Joe King]

And it was then, you know, a day we were just like, let's start. Let's start this band. Let's. Let's do this. And we just started writing, like, constantly.

[Danielle Fishel]

And when do you start performing?

[Joe King]

We started playing shows shortly after that. You know, it was like backyards, graduation parties, like, wherever we could play. We were not going to play in the church.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. That's the one place you're like, we're not going to do there. Yeah. Were your friends all supportive?

[Joe King]

Friends were. Yes, friends were supportive. I mean, we begged them to come out to any show we had. You know, that's what you, like when you're a new band or new artist, you need your friends.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. What was your marketing like? Where. How were you getting, like, a graduation? How would you get to play that graduation?

[Joe King]

Okay. Marketing was print to flyer, you know, with your band name.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

Like, photograph. Like, go to. Go to Kinko's. Put together a little flyer thing with your. With your band, your photo. Make it all cool. Vibey emo.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Colors and just pass those around everywhere.

[Danielle Fishel]

Just everywhere you can.

[Joe King]

Everywhere. Put them up on, you know, on the. On the pole.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Put them on the park bench. Leave them at shows. Go to a show. Leave them on the merch desk at another band's show.

[Danielle Fishel]

And whose phone number was on there? Was it directly to one of mine? Yours? Okay.

[Joe King]

Just.

[Danielle Fishel]

They just call you for sure.

[Joe King]

Yeah. Even on our early, like, EPs, we. So we'd burn, you know, we'd record two songs or whatever, three songs. Songs. We'd have. These. We'd make. We'd make a thousand copies. Burn these CDs, put our little slip, you know, cover in. Put, you know, put our number on there. Pass those out. Just like, you know, pass them out. Try to sell them, you know, if you could, but just, like, pass them out. And then you'd get a call, you know, maybe like, one person call, be like, hey, I got a, you know, backyard party. If you want to come, I'll pay you 50 bucks. You know, you're a.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

Yeah, we're done. We're in. Okay. Okay. We'll bring 50 people if you want. Yeah. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So fun.

[Joe King]

And then. And then it became a little more, like, strategic. Like, all right, I'm gonna call every venue when I'm look at, like, who's coming into town, and if they don't have an opener listed, like, I will say, I'll call them. I'll call the promoter. And I was hounding every venue in Denver just, like, hey, on the 19th, you have such and such coming in. Is there an opener?

[Danielle Fishel]

So smart.

[Joe King]

We'll open.

[Danielle Fishel]

We'll do it.

[Joe King]

We'll do it. I promise. We'll bring 50 people.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, we'll bring 50 people. We'll be great.

[Joe King]

And sure enough, that worked here and there. It worked.

[Danielle Fishel]

So smart. So smart to be like, I'm gonna shoot my shot, because what's the worst thing they say? No.

[Joe King]

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, So I already wasn't gonna do it until. Unless you asked. So, like, I'm gonna ask, and then if you say yes, now I've got to, so.

[Joe King]

Exactly. So we just kept writing songs. And by the way, you know, it's easier. It was easier in Denver to be a cover band, to play the bars and play the songs that people want to hear. The hard part was playing your songs, right? It was like, you know, listen, we weren't good and, you know. No, no, no.

[Danielle Fishel]

You said it was fire.

[Joe King]

Well, to us, it was okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

No one could see it yet.

[Danielle Fishel]

It was fire was bubbling.

[Joe King]

But we knew. I saw it in his eyes. He saw it in my eyes.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I was doing the math, and I feel like the fray must have been pretty dependent on MySpace in the early days. So. Who was in your top eight?

[Joe King]

Oh, I wanna. Can I hear your top eight? I'm curious.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, good question. Who was my top eight? My best friend, Jamie. We're still best friends. There were definitely some guys whose names I have forgotten.

[Joe King]

Yeah, we don't wanna mention them anyway. Yeah, yeah, same. I mean, there were some. There were some girlfriends.

[Danielle Fishel]

Some girlfriends, yeah.

[Joe King]

There was my first kiss. I. I, like, just kept trying and couldn't. Britney Baxter.

[Danielle Fishel]

Britney Baxter.

[Joe King]

And she was just. She lived down the street, two blocks down in the greenhouse.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was she so cool?

[Joe King]

She was so cool. And I just tried for years. For years, like Britney and to see me now, just.

[Danielle Fishel]

So do you know what she's doing now?

[Joe King]

I don't. I have no idea.

[Danielle Fishel]

When was the last time you looked her up? A long time ago.

[Joe King]

Yeah, it was a while back.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was she married?

[Joe King]

She. She was.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Yep. So I was like, okay, she's good. He's good.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Yeah. She's happy. I'm good.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

But that, you know, everyone remembers that first. First kiss. So, yeah, she was. She was in the top eight.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. Top eight. If you were to go back to it, probably still in the top eight. So while I was researching for this interview, I was sur. How many times the Fray was referred to as pop punk.

[Joe King]

Interesting.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. I guess I just don't typically think of you as being grouped in with like, the Warped Tour regulars of Fallout Boy or Panic at the Disco. Do you think of yourself as being pop punk?

[Joe King]

Whatever. Honestly.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Who cares? The label.

[Joe King]

Yeah, exactly. Like, however you want to pigeon us. Like, if anything, I feel like we always just never belong in. In a. In a category because it's like even. Even in the pop category at the time when. When it was starting to work for us, you know, it's not like lyrics like bitterness are pop lyrics.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

In a chorus.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And. And we didn't sound like what was happening on pop radio.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And we're from Denver and we're isolated there. And so we.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

We were.

[Joe King]

It always felt like we didn't know where. The industry didn't know where to put us. Yeah, we were lucky to like, yesterday we. Or a couple days ago we played the Grammy Museum and you know, honored to say that we lost four Grammys already. Hope we lose more.

[Danielle Fishel]

Keep losing those Grammys.

[Joe King]

But, like, even the categories, they didn't know how to like, put our song. Is this in the pop group performance? Is this rock? We were in. In rock categories. We're in the pop category. So, you know, we're just gonna do our thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

I feel like that's such a compliment.

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

To really be so special and unique and of such a quality sound that it's hard to find a thing that we can easily categorize you as. Like, I look, I think that's just. That's such a compliment to you.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news? Huge news. We created our own podcast called hey Jonas.

[Joe King]

We invented a podcast.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

Well, we didn't invent it.

[Joe King]

We.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

We just contributed to the first people to do podcasts. Pretty. Yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts, but this one's extra special. So how did we. How do we actually come up with the name hey Jonas? Guys, I honestly don't remember.

[Joe King]

I think it was on a call

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

about what we should call it and. Well, we were thinking. I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad hey Jonas. And offered it up as a potential

[Joe King]

title for the podcast.

[Jonas Brothers (Joe, Kevin, Nick)]

But thanks for remembering that. Guys, listen to hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

[Robert Smigel]

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy not quite on Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week. My guests, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs.

[Joe King]

Where does your group perform? We do some retirement homes.

[Robert Smigel]

Those people are starving for banter. Listen to Humor Me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Fishel]

The story I've told myself about love or relationships can then shape my behavior and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection.

[Debbie Brown]

This mental health awareness month Teacher. Tune into the podcast deeply well with Debbie Brown and explore the journey of healing, self discovery and returning to yourself. We explore higher consciousness, emotional well being and the practices that help you find clarity, peace and self mastery in a world that can feel overwhelming.

[Danielle Fishel]

The world is becoming lonelier. We're not becoming more social and connected. We're Becoming more individualized, but we actually

[Debbie Brown]

need people in connection. If you've been searching for a soft place to land while doing the work to become whole, this podcast is for you. To hear more. Listen to Deeply well with Debbie Brown from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Will Ferrell's Big Money players and iHeart

[Danielle Fishel]

podcast presents soccer Moms.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

So I'm Leigh Anne.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

This is my best friend, Janet.

[Danielle Fishel]

And we have been joined at the

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

the hip since high school.

[Danielle Fishel]

Absolutely.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Now, a redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger, hips wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey with all the snacks and drinks. Sidebar. Why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer?

[Joe King]

Well, they had a bogo.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, then you got it. You had a white collar sub here.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Just hang it.

[Joe King]

What are y' all doing?

[Danielle Fishel]

Microphones. Are you making a rap album? Oh, I would. Could you believe I would buy it

[Robert Smigel]

cuts through the defense like a hot

[Joe King]

knife through sponge cake.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

That sounds delicious.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, you're lucky I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You're lucky I'm not a killer.

[Joe King]

I love this team, and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh,

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

listen to soccer moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danielle Fishel]

Do you remember where you were when you found out that Grey's Anatomy was going to use your song?

[Joe King]

I do. Well, first it was. It was like, as simple as an email, like, you know, a request for the license.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

To use the song. Song. How to Save a Life was not a single at that time. Our first single that actually changed our life, and it was over my head. Yeah, I love that because that one in. In Denver just blew up. Like, I. I was like, calling the radio stations, like, every. Every time we had a new song, I would send them songs.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And beg them to play.

[Danielle Fishel]

Please play these.

[Joe King]

Yes. And we, we got. We. You know, they turned down probably nine songs. And then it was that we had. And I sent it to the program director of all the stations. Multiple. And then they were like, you know what? We're gonna play this on Sunday night. We got a local czar. You know, we'll play it. We were so excited. Like, we.

[Danielle Fishel]

Did you have a listening party.

[Joe King]

We knew it was between like 6pm and 8pm so we all met up at, I think my parents house and the stereo was broken and. And we had to climb in the minivan.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

To listen in the minivan and turn on the car and just turn on the radio. And we were all just waiting for that moment. And when it came on, wow. We were just sat there like giddy and it ended. And that minivan door came open and we jumped out in the grass and we're just starting to dance and we're like, oh, we just heard our song on the radio. Didn't know what was gonna happen from that, of course. And literally the next morning the station called me and they were like, hey, like we got a lot of calls about that on this song and so we're gonna put this into rotation. And I remember him saying, buckle up, buckle up. And I was like, okay. You mean in the minivan?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I was. Last night from 6 to 8, I was.

[Joe King]

It was safe. There's airbags in there. So within four days, every label was calling my phone because remember I put them on the cd.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, that's. Everyone had your number.

[Joe King]

You were all in the house across the room. I was trying to be like manager guy. I was like, this is Joe from the Fray. Yeah, who are you?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. Mask is gone.

[Joe King]

Yeah. Leo from what? Sony. What are you gonna do for us, Leo? You gonna take us to dinner tonight? You gonna fly us to New York? What are we doing?

[Danielle Fishel]

Mysterio's broken at home. I could use a new stereo.

[Joe King]

Yeah, you got a Sony radio for me? So it became this frenzy of labels just reaching out. And it was an exciting time, but also very scary because you don't know who to trust. And so actually, Ryan Tedder from One Republic was just a good friend at that point. And I was. And he. No one knew about One Republic either. And so him and I were like bouncing people off each other, like, hey, do you know this guy from Epic? Or do you know this guy from Columbia?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Are these people decent?

[Joe King]

For sure. Because, you know, we know, you hear about it, that it's a shady biz. Absolutely. And the artist gets screwed. And I did not want to be that story where we were just signing something we didn't know or was taking advantage of us.

[Danielle Fishel]

You were savvy to even know that because a lot of people did not know and are willing to take Sparrow jpms.

[Joe King]

It was that second grade newspaper out in the morning, like, someday I'm not gonna get screwed.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's right. I'm onto you. How long did it take then for your life to just completely change after the episode aired?

[Joe King]

Right. So after how to Save a Life aired, my grandmother called me and she was like, joey, I heard your song on Grey's Anatomy. And she was so excited and so proud. That was the first call. And she was, like, thrilled because she loved the show. Grandma Betty, just. Yeah. And so I was like, oh. Oh, you does that.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's on your radar.

[Joe King]

It's on your radar. Yeah. And. And it. It was, you know, I think, because the band was already. We had a fan base and we were already touring, you know, from over my head and what was happening.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

The timing couldn't have been better because I do think, looking back of how to Save a Life was the first thing that happened for us.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Through Grays, we may have been just super pigeoned into, you know, that only

[Danielle Fishel]

thankfully had over my head before. Yeah.

[Joe King]

So that there was. There was already, you know, like, we were a band before that and it was happening and.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. So I, like, street cred already in a way.

[Joe King]

I don't know. But, like, at least our fans knew.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, exactly. I don't know if, like. Like, the core fans knew. Obviously, those that found us through how to. Through Grave just, you know, did so. And that's great.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right?

[Joe King]

You know, you're not gonna. I mean, you gotta, you know, get. You get your music heard somehow.

[Danielle Fishel]

Totally.

[Joe King]

And at that time, too, there was. There was a. I remember, like, wrestling with the idea of licensing to the song or any song to TV or commercials, because there was like a. There was a. It was a time where artists were like. There was a. It was a sellout.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah. By the way, now you are applauded for selling out in 2026. Everyone's like, get that bag, honey.

[Joe King]

Oh, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Back in the day, you even did anything that could be thought of as selling out, and people were ready to attack you.

[Joe King]

Oh. And there was a big fear around this because artists were, I don't know, press or something, were hard on it if you license your song. And I remember before the graze thing, the band called Wilco that I love.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe King]

They got a bunch of flack for a license that they did. And it was like, everybody. It was so much blowback and they issued a statement. They were like, we are sorry that we made money.

[Danielle Fishel]

I apologize that the thing I love to do and I'm very good at has been profitable for me.

[Joe King]

Which is funny because then five years later, they reverse course and. And you know, and that's what you do. Because it's like, come on. I mean, we're artists. We gotta, like, how to eat. Of course. So I remember wrestling with it, and then we just was like, all right, let's just do it.

[Leigh Anne and Janet]

Do it.

[Joe King]

Just say yes to this. And. And then it became like. It's just like. Then there was, like, Scrubs and so many different, like, sinks. And I was like, HBO and, like, just blown away with, like, how our music was being used, you know, and it didn't take anything away from, like, the integrity of the ban.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

You know, because we didn't write the songs for those shows.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

We wrote them because they were true.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

And they came from, like, we were talking about. They came from questions.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

In fact, it's funny because my publisher. I remember signing my first publishing deal, and it was before any of the syncs came through. We sat down to have the meeting when they heard the record, and they told me. They were like, we don't think there's anything on here that's licensable. It's just not a sync record. There's no sinks, you know, sync songs. And I was like, okay, well, why do you. Why do we meet today?

[Danielle Fishel]

Could have been an email, right?

[Joe King]

Could have been an email. Yeah. So you never know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep. Yep. Trust me. We have some emails that say, I don't think Pod Meets World is a podcast.

[Joe King]

Exactly.

[Danielle Fishel]

He's like, oh, okay, cool. Thanks. I found a very fun Jingle Ball from 2009, and I wanted you to hear this lineup.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Jordan Sparks, J. Sean Cobra, Starship, Pitbull, Owl City, Justin Bieber.

[Joe King]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

And the Fray.

[Joe King]

Oh, yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

If Spotify shuffled in that order, I might think I was hacked.

[Joe King]

First off. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. First off, Justin Bieber. That was the first time we met.

[Danielle Fishel]

Really?

[Joe King]

And actually the last time. Oh, that's the only time you've seen each other? I haven't seen him since. We just haven't crossed paths. Although friends will send me. Like, he'll post our song.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, and our songs in general and vibing with the music and. And. But I remember I didn't know him before that show because it was, like, right when he was. It was happening. But I remember we played, and then I was backstage, and the frequency of screams was piercing through the wall.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. You were like, this is on the other side of a wall.

[Joe King]

What is going on in this arena right now?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

And so I went in there, and it was like, a pitch that I had to, like, plug my Ears. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I saw him up on stage, I was like, damn this. I'm just. I'm seeing a legend right here.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, and, yeah, I mean, I hope to collaborate with him at some point.

[Danielle Fishel]

That would be. That would be incre. Afraid.

[Joe King]

Eber. Like, just something. If not, I'm always going to be a fan.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah. I would love to. I would love to see that. I really would. That sounds like a good crossover for me. Do you like doing radio shows for.

[Joe King]

You know, for the reason of coming across an artist that you never would have. Not otherwise.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Been, like, been in the same circle. It's a bit of a. Like, okay, dance, you know, dance for three seconds or, you know, but I don't know, like, I appreciate them. They're like. They're. They're banger, you know, banger shows.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

You just play the hits, and that's what it's about.

[Danielle Fishel]

Get out.

[Robert Smigel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

So, you know, we. I'd be. I'd be down. We actually did one maybe a year ago with Teddi Swims.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes, of course.

[Joe King]

And again, to my point, like, I hadn't, you know, met Teddy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And we were playing the same show, and backstage we're just, like, hanging and vibing and saw his show. Just love him as a. We just got to, like, you know, got to chat that night, hang. And then the next night, we played a second radio show, and I was like, dude, you want to, like. You want to come out and sing? Like, let's. He's like, yeah, let's do. Let's go.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And so then it became a collaboration.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, and now we're friends. And so in that sense.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

It introduces you. Like it. Art inspires art. Creative inspires creative. So, like, yeah, I'm a.

[Danielle Fishel]

You celebrated 20 years of how to save a life last year with a world tour. You played across North America and Europe, all leading to the new album that just dropped. How does revisiting old music in such a big way affect when you're writing new music?

[Joe King]

It's a good question. I don't think it's in my orbit when I'm writing new music. I just have to write what's true. And. And that's all I have control of. Like, I don't want to try to replicate or try to work. I don't worry about. Is this. What are they going to think this is Fray, or are they, you know, going to connect to this? Because that will just. That just. I've been there before, and that Crushes me. It just kills my creative. Or it just feels forced and it's, like, fake or something. And so I just have to just surrender to what's true. Yeah, you and. Is this something I love? Is this something we love as a band? And really, at the end of the day, that's all we did at the beginning, and that's all we're doing now is just, like, release what's true, what we love enough to share with the world. And proud. And proud that we're still doing this as a band. And not only still, but better. And the shows are so fun. I love playing the body of work, you know, because there's more stars in the sky, and they're all there in our little spot in the sky, whatever it is. Like, we get to share those night after night, and you can feel the story in the room.

[Danielle Fishel]

And when you've had a career for as long as you have, that longevity gives you hindsight. And now you can look back as you're playing songs from 20 years ago, and you know how it all turns out. I mean, there's still a lot of future, so you don't know how it all turns out. But there's a different feeling when you have some space from some of your earlier art and are able to appreciate it in a new way. And now you are going to be out on the road with Dashboard Confessional for the Summer of Light tour. What is the biggest difference between Joe King touring 20 years ago and Joe King touring now?

[Joe King]

Well, that's a good question. I'm certainly not worried about the same things.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

Okay. So less worried about, you know. Yeah. What people think. Maybe I'm more worried about, oh, I shouldn't drink that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. Okay.

[Joe King]

I shouldn't eat that before the show.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And then after the show, I should probably rest.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna actually go to sleep. I'm gonna drink my electrolyte water for.

[Joe King]

I know it's. It's. It's geeky, you know, but I'm just like, if I want to have a longevity here, like, and I want to do this into my, like, 70s, pray to God we can, like, I want to sing these songs for the rest of my life.

[Danielle Fishel]

Totally.

[Joe King]

You know, and so. And I want to do it well, you know, I mean, fans that come to these shows, I mean, they spend their money, they spend their time, they spend. It's hard to go to shows. Like, you got to wait in lines, you got a park, you got all this stuff, all these variables, these. And they I want to give them the best.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

I want to give them our best. And so that just means making decisions differently.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Which is means that you're not having as much fun.

[Danielle Fishel]

Listen, you're preaching to the choir. I, I, I've been saying to people for a long time, I'm sorry, I'm just not that fun anymore. I, I have fun in a different way now. 8:30pm in bed is so exciting. I love it.

[Joe King]

Like with Dashboard like crazy. Like, I'm gonna reach out to him soon just so we can hang before the tour.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. Cause we're not gonna have time if we try to hang on the tour. Yeah.

[Joe King]

We're gonna be midway through. We'll be like, hey, next week. Is there? Like, is there? And then it'll never happen for the next hill one.

[Danielle Fishel]

But then I think things slow down.

[Joe King]

Guess what?

[Danielle Fishel]

They never slow down.

[Joe King]

They don't.

[Danielle Fishel]

No.

[Joe King]

So I wanna, like, hang with him before the tour starts. Just vibe, Just have an early dinner for sure. Early dinner. Yeah. We can have our food fun. Pre tour.

[Danielle Fishel]

Pre tour.

[Joe King]

We're gonna, we're gonna go hard. Chris and I are gonna go hard before the tour.

[Danielle Fishel]

Give yourself two weeks to recover before the start of I'm not done with Joe King of the fray quite yet. This Friday, we will have a bonus episode with Joe on the dedicated Teen Beat podcast feed. So just search for us in your favorite streaming service and subscribe. That way you will never miss another episode. We're even gonna listen to a voice memo from one of you that was willing to share the story from childhood that still keeps you up in. And if you're down to clown, we want to hear from you. Just send a voice note of your tale to teenbeatpodmail.com and we just might play it. And make sure to check out the Frey's new album A Light that Waits and see them on the Summer of Light tour Date and more information [e-mail] Meet is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fishel, executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, executive in charge of production, Danielle El Romo, producer and editor Tara Subaksh. The theme song is by Mark Hoppus. Yes, that Mark Hoppus. Follow us on Instagram @teenbeatpod. This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.