Danny Jones Podcast #344 - NEW Discovery: Top Chemist Just Hacked the Brain's Internal DMT Molecule | Chris McCurdy

Date: October 27, 2025
Guest: Dr. Chris McCurdy, Professor of Medicinal Chemistry, University of Florida

Episode Overview

In this rich, wide-ranging conversation, Danny Jones welcomes Dr. Chris McCurdy, a pharmacist and renowned medicinal chemist, to discuss his pioneering research into psychoactive natural products—especially endogenous DMT production, kratom, coca leaf, and their roles in medicine and culture. The episode delves into the chemistry and pharmacology of plant-based substances, the scientific hunt for the brain’s own DMT “hacks”, the complexities of addiction and withdrawal, and the challenges of natural products in the pharmaceutical landscape.

1. Dr. Chris McCurdy’s Background & Early Interests

• Intro (00:32–08:29)
  • Initially trained as a pharmacist, later moving into medicinal chemistry.
  • Early research focused on caffeine, followed by projects involving Native American tobacco, salvinorin A from Salvia divinorum, and opioids.
  • Conducted pioneering work on natural psychoactive plants (caffeine, salvia, kratom).

Memorable Quote:

“Nature, I believe, has put plants out there for us...to benefit our health, and potentially combat diseases that are also coming from nature. So I believe there’s a balance in a yin and a yang.” (B, 00:52)

2. The Endogenous DMT Inhibitor Discovery

Project Genesis & Collaboration with Nunotics and Andrew Gallimore

• Discussion (09:29–18:39, 19:59–21:18)
  • Dr. McCurdy was recruited by Nunotics based on his expertise with kratom and natural product chemistry.
  • The goal: Validate and characterize a 1977 finding that mammals possess a natural peptide inhibitory to endogenous DMT synthesis.
  • Producing DMT: Starts from tryptophan, converted by indole methyltransferase enzymes.
  • If an endogenous inhibitor exists, it could be used as a model for treating schizophrenia and other mental health conditions.

Key Context:

“What we’re searching for is this endogenous inhibitor...identify these reported endogenous inhibitors. The importance is an overabundance of this enzyme [has] been associated with schizophrenia...if we can find this peptide, it will be potentially a new way to treat schizophrenics.” (B, 11:05 & 13:13)

Memorable Moment:
Danny asks, “Now, what about if you wanted to get rid of some of this inhibitor in you and you wanted to trip on DMT endogenously without having to ingest anything?”
Dr. McCurdy:

“That’s the other side of the story. Right.” (B, 25:32)

Scientific and Practical Hurdles

• Where is DMT made? Highest enzyme concentrations are in lungs and brain. Research often starts with rabbits due to ethical and technical constraints.
• Sample collection: Human cerebrospinal fluid might be used instead of direct brain tissue, charting a path from animal to human studies.
• Ethics & logistics: Cerebrospinal fluid can be collected ethically during clinical procedures (C-sections, surgeries).

Quote:

“You can purchase pooled human spinal fluid from medical supply companies...” (B, 24:14)

3. DMT, Consciousness & Endogenous ‘Tripping’

• Do we know the function of endogenous DMT? “We don’t know that.”
• Theories vein into dreaming, altered states of consciousness, and evolutionary biology.
• Reference to Bruce Dahmer’s notions of “endogenous tripping” through meditation.
• Dr. McCurdy personally uses transcendental meditation, describing vivid mental imagery and enhanced relaxation, but no overt interdimensional “DMT-like” experiences.

Notable Quotes:

"There's a lot of things we don't understand about dream states... When you're dreaming, what's happening?" (B, 27:17)
"I've had experiences during meditation... floods of colors and kaleidoscope visions...and I'm not taking anything, no medications or anything." (B, 30:39)
"TM is probably one of the meditative techniques that has the most science behind it." (B, 31:23)

Timestamps for Meditation Segment: 29:24–36:05

4. Mind, Placebo Effect, and the Power of Belief

• Discussion on mind-body interactions, placebo effect, and the difficulty of measuring the true effect of drugs versus expectation.
• Personal anecdotes about the mental impact of disease diagnosis and the importance of healthcare access.
• Exploration of how belief and perception might influence outcomes, especially in life-threatening conditions like cancer.

Notable Story:
Dr. McCurdy recounts how his late wife’s rapid decline came after a terminal diagnosis, after initially being positive. (41:00–43:13)

5. Drugs, Addiction, and Medical Ethics

Place of Coca Leaf, Kratom, and Regulatory Complexities

• Coca Leaf (58:08–77:04):
  • Traditional use in Andes for altitude/stamina with no psychoactivity.
  • Coca-Cola’s involvement in U.S. legal import for beverage flavoring (removing cocaine content).
  • WHO global ban, but ongoing reconsideration of its legal status.

Quote:

“Coca leaf actually spread across parts of Europe and into Northern Africa...” (B, 61:30)

Kratom/Kratom: Pharmacology, Use & Risks

• Origins and Cultural Uses (78:56–93:09):

  • Kratom used in Southeast Asia for stamina, mood, and managing opioid withdrawal.
  • U.S. popularity grew after DEA scheduling efforts in 2016; subsequent proliferation of extracts and concentrates raised concerns.

• Pharmacology (99:16–102:48):

  • Kratom affects opioid, serotonergic, and adrenergic systems—a “pharmacological shotgun.”
  • Extracts and synthetic derivatives like 7-hydroxymitragynine carry higher abuse and safety risks.

• Harm Reduction:

  • Suggestion that traditional, whole-leaf use carries less risk than extracts.
  • Regulatory focus shifting towards banning potent concentrates, less so the traditional leaf.

Quote:

“Not all kratom is equal... as we move into concentrated extracts... you’re drinking 95% alcohol. And with the 7-hydroxy product, it’s almost like Everclear.” (B, 104:15)

6. Withdrawal, Tolerance & Risk Profiles

• Addiction and Withdrawal Science (107:52–113:53):
  • Kratom’s withdrawal is generally rated as “mild” (like caffeine), but misuse or high doses can lead to dependence.
  • Discussion of withdrawal severity scale (SOWS), with kratom leaf generally in low range.
  • Respiratory depression from kratom is less severe than with classic opioids, thanks in part to its polypharmacology.
  • Comparison of withdrawal risks: Alcohol and benzodiazepines are the most dangerous for fatal withdrawal; opioids less so.

Quote:

“When you talk about kratom addiction...reports and even the scientific studies that have been done with humans show that it has a very low withdrawal rating, what they would call mild—where coffee is as well.” (B, 107:52)

7. Stimulants, Ritalin, Coca, and Future Research

• Stimulant Pharmaceuticals (121:43–131:55):
  • Ritalin and cocaine act on dopamine transporter similarly; methamphetamine releases even more dopamine.
  • Discussion of prescription stimulant ubiquity and the challenge of balancing medical benefit with risk.
  • Interest in coca leaf as a potentially safer, more natural focus-enhancing alternative to prescription stimulants.

Quote:

“One of the main areas... with coca leaf is a replacement for Ritalin... increasing focus, mental acuity...” (B, 133:02)

8. Ongoing and Upcoming Research

• Projects in the Pipeline:
  • Deepening the investigation into endogenous DMT inhibitors and their role in the brain.
  • Continued kratom research with focus on public health, regulation, and pharmacology.
  • New work on kanna (Sceletium tortuosum) from South Africa as another natural mood- and focus-enhancer.
  • Studies into the effects, safety, and potential uses of coca leaf (pending regulatory/transport hurdles).

9. Final Thoughts and Resources

• Future of Kratom (139:09–146:08):

  • Research, not regulation, will determine kratom's legal fate.
  • Majority of government research funding supports open, evidence-based conclusions.
  • Ongoing studies into dose thresholds, chronic use, and product safety (e.g., heavy metal content in kratom leaf).

• Where to Find Dr. McCurdy:

  • Email: c.mccurdy@fl.edu
  • Research: Search “McCurdy CR Kratom” on PubMed—over 80 publications.

Memorable Closing Quote:

“My intention has never been to get rid of plants or replace them altogether, but to figure out how to use the plants in the best way that can be most effective and safe for people as a whole plant. Nature often times gets it right.” (B, 134:02)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The poison is in the dose.” — Paracelsus (cited by B, 146:09)
• “I've got emails from people that are consuming 90 to 120 grams a day to be able to get the benefits.” (B, 91:32)
• “FDA actually ended up showing that kratom leaf all the way up to 12 grams in a single consumption was generally well tolerated. Right. Which I think surprised...the FDA as well.” (B, 144:08)
• “We know that the one that’s most psychoactive is the dimethyltryptamine. So it’s questionable as to how much exists at any time in our bodies.” (B, 19:59)

Timestamps for Key Topics

• McCurdy’s Background, Natural Products & Salvia: 00:32–08:29
• Endogenous DMT Inhibitor - Science & Application: 09:29–18:39
• Endogenous DMT, Schizophrenia & Consciousness: 19:59–28:34
• Transcendental Meditation & Endogenous States: 29:24–36:05
• Kratom: Pharmacology, Use, Risks, and Regulation: 78:56–113:53
• Stimulants, Ritalin, Coca, and Addiction: 121:43–131:55
• Future Research (DMT, Kratom, Coca, Kanna): 132:05–139:09

Additional Resources Cited

• McCurdy, Chris – Publications on PubMed
• TM.org (Transcendental meditation resources)
• FDA/NIH Clinical trials on kratom
• Latest ethnobotanical and neuroscience research conferences

Summary prepared for those seeking an in-depth, rigorous, and scientifically grounded recap of Dr. Chris McCurdy’s interview on the chemistry, neuroscience, and future of psychoactive plant research.