Podcast Summary: Danny Jones Podcast #351

Episode Title: Top DNA Expert: New Breakaway Species of Human is Evolving in Indonesia | Dr. Melissa Ilardo
Host: Danny Jones | QCODE
Guest: Dr. Melissa Ilardo
Date: November 24, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Danny Jones speaks with Dr. Melissa Ilardo, a leading geneticist specializing in human adaptation and evolution. The discussion revolves around human populations that have developed extraordinary adaptations—so-called “superhuman” traits—to survive and thrive in extreme environments. The conversation centers on Dr. Ilardo’s pioneering research on the Bajau, a group of sea nomads in Indonesia with remarkable diving abilities and genetic adaptations that may represent a new branch of human evolution. The podcast further delves into broader themes of human evolution, genetics, technology’s impact on our biology, and the ethical frontiers of human genomic manipulation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dr. Ilardo’s Route to Human Evolution Research

• Start in Astrobiology: Dr. Ilardo began with a master’s in astrobiology but transitioned to working with humans to study real-world evolutionary processes ([01:07]).
• Indonesia Dive Population: She became intrigued by the Bajau (“sea nomads”) after learning about their diving proficiency and proposed a study to investigate possible human evolution in action ([01:07]–[02:01]).

2. The Bajau: Sea Nomads as a Case Study of Human Adaptation

• Bajau Lifestyle: Traditionally live on houseboats, extract resources from the ocean via deep breath-hold diving—some reportedly up to 13 minutes, rivaling world records ([02:10], [16:02]).
• Environmental Pressures: Indonesian seas are resource-rich, encouraging aquatic lifestyles ([03:11]).

3. Genetic & Physiological Adaptations

• Spleen Size as an Adaptation:
  • Spleen stores oxygen-rich red blood cells; contracts during breath-hold diving for an “oxygen boost” ([05:08]–[06:44]).
  • Bajau have genetically larger spleens regardless of diving activity, indicating a heritable trait, not a training effect ([08:50]–[10:04]).
  • "Based on my research, it would be normal size. However... diving does not increase your spleen size. Having a genetic predisposition increases your spleen size." – Dr. Melissa Ilardo ([10:21]).
• Gene Linked to Blood Vessel Constriction:
  • Bajau show selection in genes controlling peripheral vasoconstriction, channeling blood to vital organs during apnea ([12:16]).
• Thyroid Hormone Link:
  • Genetic variant in Bajau increases thyroid hormone, boosting red blood cell production and spleen size ([30:36], [31:02]).
  • Mouse studies confirmed spleen enlargement by modulating the same gene ([31:39]).
• Comparisons to Other Populations:
  • Similar adaptations observed in Korean Haenyeo women divers—lower heart rates, possible pregnancy protections, and traits for cold-water diving ([22:41]–[24:51]).

4. Broader Perspectives on Human Evolution

• Human Plasticity: Humans adapt through technology and physiological flexibility ("plasticity"), possibly reducing our need for dramatic genetic change ([36:03]–[36:47]).
• Directional vs. Environmental Selection:
  • Evolution isn’t linear or “progress-based”—fitness is about best environmental fit ([41:37], [42:26]).
  • "That’s like evolution doesn’t have a direction, it doesn’t care. It’s just about being... the best fit to our environment." – Dr. Ilardo ([41:37]).

5. Human Genetic Diversity & Bottlenecks

• Effective Population Size: Genetic diversity outside Africa is a subset, evidence of severe bottlenecks when humans left Africa; all living humans can trace genetics back to as few as ~10,000 individuals and a single “Mitochondrial Eve” ([48:21]–[49:37]).
• Migrations and Resets: Genetic adaptations often arise where small populations with unique traits split off; genetic mixing now occurring at unprecedented scales due to globalization ([76:19]).

6. Evolution in the Tech & CRISPR Era

• CRISPR and Designer Babies:
  • Technology now allows targeted genetic engineering (e.g., eliminating disease mutations), but raises ethical concerns, especially when based on correlation instead of causation ([83:22], [90:53]).
  • "We have the technology if we knew what the gene was, but we don’t, we’re so far from knowing it." – Dr. Ilardo ([114:24]).
• The Danger of Misapplied Genetics & Correlations:
  • Risks of erasing diversity or misattributing causation when selecting or editing genes—e.g., confusing socioeconomic status with genetic markers for intelligence ([90:41]–[92:21]).
• Potential Future of Sex and Reproduction:
  • Speculation on a future of “sexless” human reproduction, technological interventions in conception, and questions on how cultural evolution will impact biological evolution ([109:04]).

7. Fun and Fascinating Detours

• Smell & Mate Selection:
  • Dr. Ilardo discusses the “smelly T-shirt study” showing women prefer scents from men with genetically complementary immune systems ([61:25]).
• Dogs & Human Domestication:
  • Humans are ‘domesticating’ themselves through technology and environmental convenience, drawing a parallel with the teacup Yorkie vs. the wolf ([97:33]–[98:05]).
• Migraine Genetics & Light Therapy:
  • Brief exploration of migraine treatment with green light therapy as an example of environmental (not genetic) solutions ([85:28]–[89:13]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bajau’s Adaptation:

  “What I measured was their spleen size... it stores red blood cells. So it’s kind of like this oxygen reservoir... some people have called it a biological scuba tank.”
  — Dr. Ilardo ([05:08]–[06:08])

• On Genetic vs. Training Effects:

  “Based on everything I have seen in that population and in other diving populations... diving does not increase your spleen size. Having a genetic predisposition increases your spleen size.”
  — Dr. Ilardo ([10:21])

• On Human Evolution’s Directionality:

  “Evolution doesn’t have a direction, it doesn’t care... we have this image of ape transforming to man... but evolution doesn’t care about better, only fit.”
  — Dr. Ilardo ([41:37]–[42:38])

• On Modern Genetic Engineering:

  “The scary thing is we’re there, you know, we can do this. But now the question is, should we, and what should or shouldn’t we do?”
  — Dr. Ilardo ([75:28])

• On Revolutions in Human Diversity:

  “In the same way that we stole genetic material from Denisovans... maybe there’s genetic variation in one part of the world that’s been neutrally evolving that would be really beneficial in another part.”
  — Dr. Ilardo ([76:19])

• On Human Self-Domestication:

  “If you look at what humans were 10,000 years ago compared to now, we are basically teacup Yorkies compared to the wolves we used to be.”
  — Danny ([97:33])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to Dr. Ilardo & Indonesian Divers – [01:07]–[02:52]
• Bajau Diving Lifestyle & Evolutionary Pressures – [02:52]–[04:58]
• Spleen Size Adaptation Discovery – [05:08]–[07:45]
• Disentangling Genes vs. Environment – [08:50]–[10:21]
• Records of Breath-Hold Ability – [16:02]–[16:44]
• Comparisons to Other Sea Nomad Cultures (Haenyeo, Moken, etc.) – [22:41]–[25:16]
• How Plastic is Human Physiology? – [36:03]–[36:47]
• Effective Population Size & Mitochondrial Eve – [48:21]–[49:37]
• Human Genetic Bottlenecks & Globalization – [76:19]–[79:23]
• On the Ethics and Risks of CRISPR – [83:22]–[92:21]
• Mate Selection and the Smelly T-shirt Study – [61:17]–[63:44]
• Dogs as an Analogy for Human Self-Domestication – [97:33]–[98:52]
• Speculations on Future Human Evolution (AI, Reproductive Technology, “Gray Aliens”) – [108:33]–[110:43]

Additional Topics

• Oral Histories & Anthropology: Matching genetic signals with indigenous oral histories—e.g., possible ancient links between Bajau and Aboriginal Australians ([52:12]).
• Migraine & Green Light Therapy: Novel, non-genetic interventions for genetically predisposed conditions ([85:28]).
• IQ, Intelligence, and Genetics: No clear “intelligence gene”; educational attainment is a poor stand-in ([110:53]–[113:54]).

Conclusion & Where to Find Dr. Ilardo

Dr. Ilardo’s lab is known as the Superhuman Lab (superhumanlab.org), also on Instagram (superhumanscilab). She welcomes questions from listeners ([117:16]).

For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This conversation is a deep-dive into real-world human evolution, exploring how the edges of our species adapt to meet extraordinary challenges, and what those stories reveal about the past, present, and possible future of Homo sapiens. Dr. Ilardo’s research demonstrates evolution is ongoing, often invisible, and sometimes discoverable only through the unique intersections of genetics, anthropology, and cultural history. The episode is lively, accessible, and full of surprising facts that challenge notions about what it means to be human in a rapidly changing world.