#353 - Doomsday Cult Leader: Children of God, Sexual Evangelism & Having 17 Kids | Ray Connolly

Summary

Danny Jones Podcast #353 – Doomsday Cult Leader: Children of God, Sexual Evangelism & Having 17 Kids | Ray Connolly

Date: December 5, 2025
Host: Danny Jones | QCODE
Guest: Ray Connolly

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Overview

In this gripping and intense episode, Danny Jones interviews Ray Connolly, a former high-level leader in the notorious Children of God cult (also known as “The Family”) and father to 17 children. The conversation delves into Ray’s personal journey into and out of a cult characterized by global evangelism, communal living, sexual exploitation, and abusive indoctrination. Ray openly dissects the evolution of the cult’s practices, the impact on his massive family, his struggle with guilt and forgiveness, and how his faith has endured despite everything.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ray’s Introduction to the Children of God (CoG)

• Initial Attraction (01:10–17:00):
  • Ray described joining the group as a 19-year-old hippie searching for spiritual truth during the tumultuous era of the early 1970s.
  • He was originally drawn to the group’s communal, faith-driven lifestyle and the zeal of its young members, who lived simply, studied scripture intensively, and evangelized on the streets.
• Cult Experience Begins (12:08):
  • “I ran back, grabbed my knapsack at my friend's place and jumped on the bus and rode to LA. And then I found out what it was, the children of God.” – Ray (12:08)
• Indoctrination Techniques:
  • The group utilized a mixture of love-bombing (intense communal love and singing), immediate separation from outside influences, emotional pressure to “commit everything,” and strict communal rituals.

2. Structure and Core Beliefs of the Cult

• Authority and Control (21:33–23:40):
  • From bootcamp-style training in Texas to two-by-two monitoring and nightly worship, the cult ensured a highly regulated existence, with personal belongings surrendered and lives closely interwoven.
  • “You had to submit like a guy going in the army. You know, you have to let go of your old personality and become the new...Person that you are in your new calling.” – Ray (22:38)
• David Berg’s Leadership (24:07–28:01):
  • Founder David Berg’s complex, troubled sexual upbringing fueled his later doctrines and abuses. Over time, he shifted from charismatic spiritual leader to megalomaniacal controller who encouraged increasingly extreme practices.

3. The Descent Into Abuse: Sexual "Evangelism"

• Flirty Fishing & Sexual Doctrine (44:53–47:00):
  • Berg and his close circle rolled out “Flirty Fishing,” instructing women to use sex as a means of recruitment and support.
  • “He got the bright idea that, you know, maybe we should use our sexual energy and attractiveness to the public as a way of gaining recruits. Show them the love of God in a physical way, like you would feed them or take care of them if they're wounded...” – Ray (44:53)
• Normalization of Abuse & Stepwise Corruption (46:39–49:00):
  • “...it was probably six or seven years in the group before that stuff started happening.” – Ray (41:05)
  • Over several years, doctrine drifted from prudishness to sexual “liberation”—resulting in institutionalized exploitation, arranged marriages, and, eventually, sanctioned sexual activity with minors.

4. Life Inside as a Family: Ray’s 17 Children

• Marriage and Family in the Cult (32:18–40:44):
  • Ray describes arranged or “betrothed” marriages as a requirement for advancement.
  • His family—initially strictly regulated (no premarital sex, arranged unions)—was later swept into the cult’s radical “law of love.” He ended up with two wives and 17 children.
• Children’s Experience (55:53–59:29):
  • “We started sending our newsletter...to other folks around the world. And...we were performing in Cairo...The kids enjoyed it to a certain extent, but it was also Child labor.” – Ray (57:35)
  • His children became performers and fundraisers, received minimal education, and were swept into the tumultuous, itinerant cult lifestyle.

5. Abuse and Aftermath

• Child Sexual Abuse (64:05–68:42):
  • Ray acknowledges the widespread, secret, and then open promotion of sexual activity with minors within the group, at the direction of Berg and his inner circle.
  • He describes the dual reality: open publications detailing abuse that no one “outside” would ever see, internal secrecy, and the immense psychological pressure on parents and children alike.
  • “I was not a part of—I never had sex with a child or anyone underage at all. But it's a miracle. Honestly, it's very hard to imagine how I escaped…” – Ray (66:36)
• Complicity, Regret, and Recovery:
  • Ray breaks down the psychology that led believing, mostly “good-hearted” adults to go along with, rationalize, or turn a blind eye to horrific acts.
  • “I have to take full responsibility for everything I did, you know...you have to unpack all that, repent and forgive yourself. You have to be willing to change, admit what happened, see it as wrong...” – Ray (81:01–82:42)

6. Leaving the Cult: Breaking Free and Rebuilding

• Straw that Broke the Camel’s Back (70:12):
  • Increasingly insane rules, widespread paranoia, and the clear harm done to his children prompted Ray and his wife to finally risk cutting ties—knowing it meant losing all social, financial, and spiritual support, and likely his family.
• Aftermath: Trauma, Loss, and Healing (77:06–80:45):
  • Ray shares tragedies and ongoing challenges faced by his children, including deaths and mental health struggles.
  • “My kids are remarkable in the way they've...struggled through the issues of their upbringing and found a way that they have certain strengths of character and of resilience that not too many people do.” – Ray (68:29)

7. Faith, Doubt, and Deconstruction

• Surviving Spiritually (103:44–108:12):
  • Despite the darkness, Ray remains a (now open-minded) Christian, open to the wisdom of other faiths and ongoing self-examination.
  • He discusses the value he finds in the Gospels, the complexity of faith versus doctrine, and his critique of contemporary movements that politicize Christianity.

8. Child Protection, Law Enforcement, and Global Movement

• Evasion of Authorities (96:39–98:22):
  • The cult’s global mobility, name-changes, and training children to “deceive the authorities” shielded many abusers from prosecution.
• Leaving and Starting Over (98:22–101:28):
  • Ray describes his wife joining him after years, multiple attempts by group leadership to “retrain” him, and how slowly but surely all his family eventually left.

9. Cults, Mind Control, and Trauma

• Unlearning Cult Psychology (132:23–142:07):
  • Ray speaks about his involvement in deprogramming, helping ex-members, and the universality of coercion, trauma, and manipulation—even in wider society, not just cults.
  • “Nobody ever joins a cult. You know, I was joining a. An organization to evangelize the world, you know, later on. Yeah, I was in a cult. But how that happened was a long transitional period...” – Ray (140:06)

10. Broader Societal Parallels and Closing Reflections

• Evangelicalism, Politics, and Deconstruction (149:12–160:07):
  • The discussion shifts to how religious movements get politicized, with Ray offering historical context for contemporary evangelicalism and its social impact.
• Final Thoughts on Spirituality (171:06–174:00):
  • Ray advocates for self-forgiveness, honesty, and living faith as love, not dogma.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Indoctrination:
  “You really misunderstood what was said. And God loves your girlfriend more than you do, so you need to get strong in the Lord so that you can share the gospel with her.” – Ray (17:40)

• On Understanding His Guilt:
  “I can forgive myself because I can understand why it happened. The underlying motives that I actually had was good. I wanted to serve God.” – Ray (141:20)

• On Institutional vs. Individual Faith:
  “Christian is a tricky word. Suppose to mean a follower of Jesus, but I don’t think it does anymore.” – Ray (149:41)

• On Trauma and Recovery:
  “You have to get to a place where you can let go. You can get that trauma to a healed place. I hope that that message gets out more and more.” – Ray (146:06)

• On Unpacking the Bible after Cult Life:
  “I’ve gotten away from trying to figure out what everything means in the Bible. The Gospels are for me...the richest source of spiritual inspiration.” – Ray (118:57)

• On Parenting After the Cult:
  “I have to take full responsibility for everything I did...I can explain it in terms of what psychological conditioning is and how it works...but I had to agree to do stuff, you know, it wasn’t just—they couldn’t just make me, but they would convince me in a way.” – Ray (81:01–82:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:10] – Ray’s entry into CoG, the 1970s context
• [12:08] – Realizing what Children of God was
• [21:33] – Cult structure, rules, and "boot camp"
• [32:18] – Cult marriage and family-making
• [44:53] – Onset of sexual "evangelism" (Flirty Fishing)
• [64:05] – Child abuse within the cult
• [70:12] – Breaking point: leaving the group
• [77:06] – Family tragedies, mental health aftermath
• [96:39] – Evading law enforcement and authorities
• [103:44] – Reconciling faith post-cult
• [132:23] – Un-brainwashing and helping others leave
• [149:12] – On evangelical politicization and American Christianity
• [171:06] – Concluding thoughts: humanity, faith, love

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Tone, Style, and Speaker Dynamics

• Ray is reflective, candid, at times mournful, and deeply self-examining—frequently apologizing, owning up to painful truths, but also showing gratitude for his family’s survival.
• Danny’s style is direct but compassionate, pressing for detail on shocking material but allowing humor and empathy to surface—as when the number of children comes up or parallels with other cults are drawn.

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Further Resources

• Ray's memoir (2011), available in paperback and Kindle (title not mentioned, but Ray displays it at the end [173:25]).
• Meadow Haven and International Cultic Studies Association—resources for cult survivors.
• Rebecca Lemoine/Lamot, academic expert on cults and mind control, previously discussed on Joe Rogan.

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A haunting, honest, and ultimately hopeful narrative about the search for meaning, the dangers of charismatic authority, trauma, and the difficult work of redemption. No story about cult survival is easy, but Ray’s openness and continued faith speak volumes about the human capacity for change and forgiveness.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Right. When I joined the group 1970, televangelism wasn't even a thing. But there was one guy out in LA who had a church in the home, he called it. And so we were kind of his project. And he has every week he had to do church in the home. So he had all these, you know, converted hippies come, but it was like this. It was all just. Just cellophane stained glass. Yes.

[A]

Hey. How dare you disrespect my cathedral like that? Those are real stained glass windows. And this is. We imported this basalt granite from Egypt.

[B]

You're kidding.

[A]

Swear.

[B]

Really?

[A]

True story. Go touch it.

[B]

Where in Egypt?

[A]

Aswan.

[B]

Oh, nice.

Sticker. I'm a sucker.

I lived in Egypt for a year.

[A]

One year only.

[B]

Yeah, a little less than a year actually. We had a abbreviation due to the authorities. So yeah, made a quick move.

[A]

So, okay, for people who don't know who you are, essentially like high level, you were in the Children of God cult for more than 20 years? Roughly around. Around 20 years.

[B]

May 1970 till early 1991.

[A]

You lived in 20 different countries and you had 17 kids when you were in the cult?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Good Lord. I like how you kept up the whole, you know, the beard and the hair.

It's very Fitting.

[B]

Yeah. Once I didn't have to appear before customers. Right.

[A]

So the Children of God cult is one of the most.

Sinister cults I've ever heard of. And you know, not to discredit how bad some of the other ones are, but like this one in particular seemed very dark, especially when it came to the abuse of children and stuff like that and how widespread it was all around the world. But first, can you explain what the cult was like? What was the main idea of the culture?

[B]

Sure. Well, obviously there was a tremendous amount of evolution going on or devolution during the years of any. Any high control group like that is going to have a downward spiral.

But with us it was. I was, you know, a hippie, dropped out of college, just hitchhiking around looking for the truth and. And.

Ended up going to California. Hitchhiking out to California to meet a guy who had witnessed the gospel to my brother, my younger brother. And.

We didn't know it was 1970. We had no idea of any of the evangelical language. We were raised Catholic and didn't know anything about it. So I hitchhiked to California to find out who could tell me how to accept Christ. So that's what I was doing. And the first day I landed in California, there was a rally. I remember Jerry Rubin from the Chicago 7. No, one of the radicals that was involved in big court case in Chicago.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But he was speaking at the stadium at University of Santa Barbara. And.

The. I was staying with a guy that night, it was old friend of mine. And he said, I'll meet you at the stadium. Which sounded like a plan until I realized there's about 40, 000 people there. Anyway, long story short, the group was doing a demonstration that day at the stadium and.

Which I can get into or not get into. I don't know what you prefer.

[A]

Yeah, let's get into it. The group you're talking about, the Children of God cult.

[B]

The Children of God, yeah. Which I didn't know at the time. I'd never heard of them. Didn't know anything about the whole Jesus movement or anything about it.

So.

They came into the stadium, Jerry Rubin speaking. They came into the stadium, probably 20 or 30 young people wearing red robes, ashes on their forehead, carrying big staves and scrolls with scripture references.

[A]

Mostly Old Testament, very similar to like Pentecostal style.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It came out of a. A Pentecostal type movement originally.

[A]

The Serpents and.

No, not, not raising serpents.

[B]

No, we were not doing that. You know, it would have been better if we had but the more satanic maybe the idea was they were conveying that America's in trouble, their judgment is coming, and Jesus is coming back. You know, get ready. So at first, the thing was very strange for me. I hadn't seen anything like it, nor had many other people.

But. And I wasn't immediately. I knew something big was happening. I didn't know what it was, and I wasn't sure it was connected to my search. So after the demonstration ended and Jerry Rubin left, I met some of them after they'd taken off their robes and was just sharing sandwiches with hippies.

[A]

And how old were you, by the way?

[B]

19.

[A]

19, okay.

[B]

So.

[A]

So were they offering, like, free food or.

[B]

Yeah, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Peanut butter and banana sandwiches. Yeah, yeah, but. And playing guitars and, you know, just invitation to have a conversation about God. So I was up for it, you know, And I went over and listened in, and it was. It was so interesting to me because there was a few. What would you. Kind of churchy Christians there, college students that were debating with this group over the. The way to interpret scripture and who. Who. What's the right way to live, to follow Jesus. And these guys would, you know, the college kids would give very reasonable arguments with very little scripture. And these guys would just flip their Bible and just open it to a verse and said. Just read that one. And everything they did and said came straight out of the Bible. So I was the children of God people.

[A]

They were opening passages.

[B]

They knew the Bible way better than these other guys. So. And they memorized, you know, we're talking.

[A]

About an English translation. They weren't reading Greek, right?

[B]

No, right. King James.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But.

And their zeal was obvious, and they were clearly committed. They, you know, in the conversation, you found they lived communally. They lived by faith. They didn't have jobs or anything. They just went out every day to tell people about God and challenged them to follow Jesus. So I was really drawn. And in the course of the conversation, I talked to him about how do you accept Christ? You know, so they led me in the sinner's prayer. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that term, but it's widely used in the evangelical community to ask Jesus into your heart and begin a new life. Which I did. And I had a pretty profound experience of conversion. I really, genuinely sensed that God had come into my life.

So as time went on, I was happy about that, obviously, but I still was a little nervous about what the commitment was being asked of me, you know, to forsake all and follow Jesus.

And I thought, well, maybe, maybe if I come down to see you guys. They were from LA. They came in on a bus from LA to Santa Barbara.

[A]

What year are we talking again?

[B]

1970.

[A]

70.

[B]

Right after Kent State, that. That era.

[A]

So what year were The Manson murders? 69, I think.

[B]

69, yeah, yeah. No. So that whole thing was in the news, you know, just like California and cults and all that. Not a lot, but, you know, the Charles Manson thing brought it to attention. So I was a little like, I'm not sure. I never came into anything quite this strong in terms of its emotional and spiritual.

[A]

But you, you sort of had a void in your soul you were looking to fill, right? You were looking for something. This wasn't just happenstance.

[B]

I was very deliberately and.

You know, I set out to find God and I. My brother had this experience with a kid in Berkeley. So I was on my way to Berkeley, but ended up in Santa Barbara for the night where I had a friend. So that's how I ended up at this event. Right. So. But I had really asked God to show me the truth. And I promised him that if he showed me the truth, I would do it.

Which is a dangerous prayer. But.

That afternoon, I bump into these guys, I ask Jesus, my heart, my life has changed, but still I'm nervous. Like, can I just get a little distance? I'd like to call my girlfriend and check, just see.

If I can even make sense of what's happening before I commit to my life.

But the fellow that was sharing the gospel with me was pretty determined not to let me do that. Wait.

[A]

So what was the conversation like to commit your life? What do you mean by that? Like what. What do they say to you?

[B]

Would you want to follow Jesus? So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaken not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple, you know, so. And there's dozens more like that. So he was saying, we're doing it. We're doing what? Jesus said, yeah, if you want to follow Jesus, if you told him you want to follow Jesus, and then you get an invitation to follow Jesus exactly the way he said, and you don't do it. He said, I. You'll never be able to look yourself in the eye again. You just. You. You're not going to be able to say, I'm. You're looking for the truth anymore. And frankly, I think he'll just go crazy. And when he said that, I got a. A jolt. Like, yeah, I. I could see that. I Could go crazy if I don't do what I told God I would.

[A]

And was there any talk about you just like joining their clan and staying and living with them?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that was the vision. We all live together, we're gonna travel the world and, okay, spread the gospel. So.

Anyway, I did, I ran back, grabbed my knapsack at my friend's place and jumped on the bus and rode to la. And then I found out what it was, the children of God. And it was.

[A]

How did you find out?

[B]

I think they told us somewhere along the, you know, they didn't have business cards or anything, but people call us the children of God is what they would say because that's what happened. They didn't make up the name. A journalist gave them the name. So anyway, it was a big five story mission building in downtown la, fifth in town, and it was pretty much occupied fully by about 100 converted hippies who were all pursuing this dream.

Very enthusiastic, very loud, a lot of praise the Lord, Hallelujah, thank you Jesus, all day, every day. A lot of singing, a lot of hugging, a lot of smiling, laughing.

[A]

Any drugs?

[B]

No.

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, not once you're in. I mean, prior to conversion, I mean.

[A]

Like a part of the prayer and the ritual and the dance.

[B]

Totally Pentecostal Holy Spirit kind of energy.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

With a dose of radicalism, you know, that was challenging to all the values of mainstream America and frankly the world. I mean, it was, this is the right way to do it and this is what Jesus said we should do and this is what we're doing. And if you don't do it, that's your problem. You know, it's come, come along and we'll help you. You get into it. So anyway, I went to this building and there was kind of a.

A lot. We had a big snack of big bowls of ice cream and donated ice cream and stuff like that. And then a lot of singing and then the. All the new ones, myself included. About 10 of us who had just jumped on the bus that day.

Were invited up to the second floor which, where we had a meeting. It was called the second floor purge room, where new recruits would, after being congratulated on choosing your new life, would then give you a good cop, bad cop experience of.

On one hand, praising you for doing it and making you feel good about what you're doing, and then on the other hand, a warning that if you don't, if you walk away from this, this is what you're doing, you know, you're failing God and you're crucifying the son of God afresh. And it was a real.

Difficult moment. And you just took out your wallet, threw it on the floor, everything. You turned everything over. You know, travelers checks, sign them over.

I'm realizing no one will know what a traveler's check is. No, but, but that, that was the kind of rude awakening into, oh, God, this is a lot heavier than I thought. You know, this is not just sitting around the living room at a commune. This is, this is like an army here. I'm signing up for something serious. I went to bed that night kind of nervous about the whole thing, and a guy gave me a couple scriptures to. No, no, that was later. Anyway, went to bed, woke up.

Loud, reveille style, praises to God and all that, and then kind of shuffled off to breakfast and begin your first day in class. So the, the class was being taught, it was just new. Just the new guys, I think five had made it through the purge room and five had left.

And then.

The subject was the word. In the middle of it, people's minds were wandering, you know, just thinking about, what am I doing here, how did I get here, that kind of thing. What's going on?

And it was a kid, really. He was younger than me, was teaching the class, but he was kind of a Marine drill sergeant type. So he was really aggressive in the way he presented scripture and he said, anything you're thinking about right now, that is not the word of God is the devil.

I happened to be thinking about my girlfriend at the time, so I thought, well, that's not right. You know, she's not the devil. I got up and left, grabbed my knapsack.

[A]

Where was your girlfriend during all this?

[B]

She's out. And she was on the east coast in Massachusetts.

We had. I sort of sensed that this journey was going to change my life. I. I felt like I was going to meet God and I, I really couldn't. All bets were off of what would happen after that. So our, our vision for life was on hold until I could figure out what God wanted.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So.

But, you know, this was dramatic. I really wanted to share it with her and also bounce it off somebody to see where, if I could even comprehensively explain it, you know.

[A]

Sure. So you left the class.

[B]

Yeah. And I grabbed her high school graduation picture out of my knapsack and started out the hallway. And some. One of the older guys stopped me and said, hey man, where are you going? And I said, does this look like the devil to you? And I held, held up her picture and definitely not the devil.

And he said, wait, wait, I think you got a few things off here. And so he sat me down, walked me through and kind of encouraged me that, look.

You really misunderstood what was said. And God loves your girlfriend more than you do, so you need to get strong in the Lord so that you can share the gospel with her. And we'll probably be sending a team out to the east coast soon. You're a likely candidate kind of thing. So I said, okay, give it another try. Went back and got on board and it was. Two weeks in LA was pretty intense. You know, going out in this, into the sidewalks of downtown la, stopping complete strangers on the street and talking to them about Jesus and the end of the world and all that kind of thing and getting three or four hours of Bible studies every day, a lot of singing and dancing and hugging and all that stuff. So it's a pretty high, it's a, it's a very emotionally high.

Atmosphere, right?

[A]

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[B]

As time went on then they said, hey, we've got another community down in Texas that it's way out in the middle of nowhere in the sticks and it's an old ranch that was used for a missionary training base and we've taken it over to. As a training place for. For our movement. So we're sending a bunch of people down and you're on the bus. So I went down to Texas and that was four months of pretty much, I guess you would call it a boot camp type situation. A lot of it's very hard, hard life. It wasn't. Nobody was there for the perks.

But a lot of joy and a lot of dwelling in scripture all the time. Memorizing five, sometimes ten Bible verses a day.

Mostly along the lines of pretty standard evangelical kind of teachings, plus this radical idea that Jesus is not working through the church. He's working through committed individuals who band together to live, like he said, to live in the Gospels and the acts of the apostles. So that was our whole energy. Like, God's going to use a special. In a special way because we're willing to do anything.

[A]

So what was like the number one M. Like what was your number one objective every day? Just to go out and preach to people on the street to recruit new people.

[B]

Yeah, in, in la it was that. Okay. In Texas, it was more. We were. It was, you know, like, I don't know, probably 10 miles to the nearest truck stop. There was nowhere to evangelize. And that was pretty much training. So four months of pretty intense training, miserable living conditions and just.

[A]

And when you say training, you mean learning the Bible, memorizing the Bible, learning.

[B]

The Bible, memorizing the Bible and learning, like, how to answer questions. You know, just standard evangelism stuff. What, you know, if someone doesn't believe in God, here's some verses you can use and blah, blah, blah, that kind of how to. How to evangelize.

And all the time you're learning how to get along with everybody from.

Bikers to prostitutes to junkies to, I mean, it was just a wild bunch jazz musicians, I mean, just a wild group of people that are all on the same journey and really committed to it. So there was a lot of high energy and a lot of stuff that was really hard to take. You know, you just, you're a hippie, you don't want to have a bunch of rules. And, you know.

So much regimentation, which was part of the deal. You had to submit like a guy going in the army. You know, you have to let go of your old personality and become the new.

Person that you are in your new calling.

[A]

And you, and you really disc. You first discovered these rules and you, you encountered these, these rules.

[B]

Everything was like, well, even, even in la, like you always had a Buddy, you know, there's. You always went two by two that. Which was a, a biblical term, but we carried it to a lot bigger extreme than, than the folks in the Bible did. But so you were really kind of. There was a lot of. It wasn't surveillance exactly, but it was. Everybody was, you know, looking out for each other. So if somebody started to have doubts, it would usually show up on their face and you would get pulled aside and given a little personal attention and counseling, you know, trying to help you through your battles. So. And then every night you'd have a worship service that was very joyful and, you know, transformative. Just that kind of a life after the life I had been living is. It was just very, very different. And I was, I could tell I was changing. My personality was changing, which I thought was good.

So anyway, as time goes on, the group changes its emphasis, but the main structure was in place that the person who started it was. He had been a defrocked Christian and Missionary alliance pastor. Lost his church over. That's a controversy over how he lost his church, but I think it was probably having to do with sex. Talking about Berg Berg.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, David Berg.

[B]

So. And he had this, you know, vision of just molding young lives into something that was.

You know, that's him.

It would be unstoppable. If you had a bunch of committed people that were willing to go anywhere and do anything and share the gospel, we'd take over the world. In the meantime, if you happen to be a narcissist, what a setup.

[A]

David Berg, very interesting backstory, to say the least. His upbringing with his parents, how he was raised. I think his mother was the first Christian evangelist in the United States. I was doing all kinds of insane things. Proclaimed to have divine healing powers.

Yeah, yeah. And. And he didn't really succeed at anything until he was like in his 50s. That's when he started the Children of God in like Huntington Beach, I think.

[B]

Right. Yeah. You know, he, he would, I think he was part of his mom's evangelistic team, played piano, that kind of thing. Yeah. But he wasn't really a well known preacher.

[A]

And, and when he was a, from what I've, from what I understand when he was a young child.

He had a very traumatic childhood where his parents would shame him for like weird, like normal what, what most people would consider normal.

Sexual proclivities of kids going through puberty or things like this. And they, they would like threaten him with like chopping off his. And like doing weird things with him and his Sisters. And his watching him like when he was a kid, like lots of weird early programming that happened to him from his parents, early childhood.

[B]

Folks who have done psychological studies on Berg, you know, always comment on the, the.

Bizarre nature of. I mean, it's not even all that bizarre when it comes to the evangelical world. A lot of very strict fundamentalists approach child rearing and sexuality that way. But I think it probably was more extreme in his case and.

Given the nature of his. He thought about sex a lot, so it probably was a big problem for him growing up.

[A]

Yeah, but what just typically, I mean, that's the story of the, the Catholic school girl.

[B]

Yeah, I'm a Catholic school kid.

[A]

You tell, you tell, you tell, you tell. Lucky you tell a kid they're. They're forbidden from something, it's just gonna make them want. Want more of it.

[B]

Yeah, typically. Yeah. No, I mean, it's. His story is not that different from many other people who grew up in that tradition. Yeah, but.

His reaction to it was extreme. So he internalized a lot of stuff. And.

Over time, I think, you know, as a traveling evangelist, people have opportunities to, you know, sleep with people that are not, they're not married to. It just happens. It's not unique to cults. It's, you know, all over. And I'm sure he engaged in that. And.

Along the way he also got really.

Involved with one of his daughters. And so that was a, you know, we didn't know any of this. It was an advertiser. Many, many years later it came out. But.

So he had already begun crossing the line into sex with minors.

[A]

This was before he started the culture.

[B]

Right, right. She was.

I don't know, I think she. It was probably a preteen age.

[A]

So what happened after Texas, when you first went to Texas to train.

[B]

They sent a team to Cincinnati, which was closer to where I wanted to go. I still wanted to get back and to the east coast and talk to my friends and girlfriend.

But.

And that was a total outreach. We were on the streets every day at the University of Cincinnati sharing the gospel. Sometimes, you know, have new recruits come in every week, 1, 2, 3, some of whom were like well known musicians and that kind of thing that were. It gave us a sense of, wow, this is really happening. The NBC did a program on us called the Ultimate Trip. I don't know if you have that one, but that was the first.

[A]

The Ultimate Trip.

[B]

The Ultimate Trip. And it was filmed in Cincy. I don't think I'm in that. I don't know where I was, but.

And that made us, you know, even more like, yeah, God's giving us, you know, promotion. You know, this is this. He wants the word out. So. Right. And a lot of people started coming. We had a lot of things happening. A few months there. I had sort of gotten into, they got me into teaching the Bible. I became like a leadership trainee. So I had responsibility with some of the new disciples and so on.

Then it was. The movement was growing so fast, they wanted to open more branches but didn't have enough leaders.

[A]

Who was bankrolling all this?

[B]

Well, the, the original.

LA and Texas were supported by Fred Jordan, who was this TV evangelist guy who was making way more money off us than he was giving to us because he was using us to raise money from his supporters. This is what we're doing. We're converting all these terrible hippies.

[A]

I see.

[B]

So then from that point on, it was really seriously a faith work. It's hard for people to get their head around it, but miracles would happen. We had some strategy. I mean, we would contact local business owners to donate food or whatever. We, you know, think lumber, whatever we needed for our projects. And then.

When you joined, I had a couple hundred bucks. I threw that in the common pot and everything just goes in the common pot. I mean, I think that I probably went four or five months. I never touched money, never actually touched money. So it was, you know, a kind of.

It's a rush, you know, because you kind of expect your life to, to happen in a really miraculous way. Fashion. Every day was a miracle.

[A]

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[B]

So. And that continued on that way. You know, mostly good stuff. You. You bump into some strange people in a communal group, but mostly it was pretty positive. Anyway. They, they, they. At the point where they wanted me to become a leader, they wanted me to get a wife. Yes. There's a. That was Cincy.

[A]

I wanted you to become a leader.

[B]

Yeah. To be able to open a community.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So. But you had to have. You had to be married.

[A]

So what is this, a baptism? Yeah, this is the ultimate trip.

[B]

Yeah. This is Cincinnati.

I think I'm there somewhere, but I don't see me.

But. So, you know, at this stage, we're kind of part of what becomes known as the Jesus movement, but we are the most radical part of the Jesus movement just because of our commitment to following the teachings on forsaking all and having all things in common and so on.

[A]

Yeah. When you say radical, what do you mean specifically? What was so radical about it?

Just because you guys were devoting everything and living together, getting rid of all your personal belongings and just forget about.

[B]

Education, forget about businesses, forget about any of that. Just preach the gospel and God will take care of you.

[A]

You guys were like, living in your own separate reality.

[B]

Correct. And, you know, we would challenge others to do the same. So it was a very aggressive. You know, whenever you're arguing a case, you're also convincing yourself more and more as you present the.

[A]

The interesting.

[B]

This is. This is what Jesus challenges his disciples. And you turn to the page, you read it right out of the book.

[A]

And people go, would you guys often get in debates with folks in. In public? Like, like heated, actual debates or where people mostly either checked out and just like ignoring you guys or, like, interested.

[B]

Debates were very common. And, you know, it was. It was kind of.

In other religious traditions. I also experienced this where people. It's. It's a bit of a sport to try and win someone over to your point of view. And if you're doing it for God, all the better. You know, you get a little juice there. But.

So. And we would always try to bring it back to the Bible. So that. And there is some pretty. If you read through the Gospels, there's very little connection between the way Jesus challenges his followers and the way most people live out their Christian faith. So.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It was. And at that time, 1970, it's, you know, people are ready to do wild and radical steps like just give away all your stuff and join the movement and go anywhere.

[A]

Such a crazy time, the 60s and 70s. There's so many wacky stories of that was going on in the United states during the 60s and the 70s. It's unbelievable.

[B]

I think that's a big part of how this movement coalesced because it was, it was.

[A]

I mean, think about it. You had, you had. MK ULTRA was going on a government mind control program, legit, that was declassified. You had the Charles Manson murders, which was, which was evidently tied into all of that. You have the whole cold world, Kenneth Kennedy getting killed, the Vietnam War.

I mean there's just an endless amount of.

That was going on back then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and deception, you know, and government lies and just wow. Like that was, I think that was like the, the pinnacle epoch of just like Twilight Zone of America.

[B]

Yeah. Also, you know, flower power.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, I mean it wasn't all dark. There was a lot.

[A]

Right. But that stuff got, that stuff got subverted by the government.

[B]

But yeah.

I don't think, you know, some people have. Have.

Proposed that perhaps some of that. The government got interested in us because we had a pretty impressive technique for mind control. We were really good at it.

[A]

The government got interested in Children of God.

[B]

Well, some people speculate that. I don't think so. I never saw any evidence of that. But I have heard that people checked it out and then kind of realized, I don't even think we could control these guys.

[A]

Well, yeah, if you wanted to. If you were the government, which. And they were interested in mind control, that's a fact, you. And they were interested in you guys, how would they figure out what was going on? Well, they would have somebody infiltrate, you know, try to join and see what it's all about. And you.

[B]

If they do. I suspect that probably did happen. You know, that people come in for, you know, a couple of weeks or a month or two months and they didn't quite fit the bill of, you know, the typical disciple. So I think there was probably some research going on, but I think they just thought we can't, you know.

I don't think we'd have a way of steering this.

Unless they did it through Berg. But I don't think Berg was interested in sharing.

[A]

Well, they might not want to steer it. They might just want to understand it.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

[A]

So you were on the streets you were preaching to people on the streets, converting, trying to convert people, trying to engage people and recruit people, doing debates. Was there anything sinister you were noticing at all or anything? That was.

[B]

No. I mean, in terms of, you know, what we later became most well known for was the sexual stuff. We were so prudish. I mean, I was getting to the point where I proposed to my wife because they're trying to, you know, encourage me to take a wife so that I can open a community. And we were going out to LA to get ordained. We had a problem with the draft.

So they thought, well, if we get all these guys ordained and get them as licensed ministers, then they'll be able to better qualify for an exemption for the Vietnam War. For the Vietnam War. So.

The bus was going from Cincinnati to Texas, which was our other big commune at the ranch, and then to LA. There were only four single women in Cincinnati and probably 30 single guys. So they said, look, why don't you come back with a wife? Because, you know, there's not much to choose from here. But you got lots of women in Texas and in la. Surely the Lord can give you a wife out of them. The fact that I didn't know them was really not an issue. You know, they had a, you know, kind of arranged marriage kind of concept.

I took that in. But after a few days, I went and said, I don't think I should do that because I think I'm supposed to marry one of the girls that's here. And they said, oh, well, that's interesting. Two other guys have asked for her hand, so. But, okay, come back. No wife. We'll see what. What works out with. With Stephanie. My wife.

And I got, you know, back from la. She was gone. She had gone up to Detroit to pioneer a new work up there. And I thought, well, that's a good test. If we end up getting back together, then I'll know that, you know, God was engineering things in a certain way. It was a little bit of a test. And she came back.

Kind of an unusual romance, but we got betrothed, which was kind of a commitment to each other before the Lord. But even after we were betrothed, we couldn't. We. We couldn't make out. We couldn't, you know, we were allowed to hold hands, kiss each other good night, but, you know, no sex, no anything that would be construed as a date. Nope, until you're married. So I had to. We had to get our birth certificates from our parents, which was really awkward, to put it mildly.

And Then when they all. That all happened, we hitchhiked to Kentucky because we were too young to get married in Ohio without some document and got married.

That's the nature of the group that I joined. It was extremely.

You know, strict on all sexual matters. But as time went on, that all changed. But there was a. What. What I try to explain about the difficult thing.

Obviously you led with it. You know, these guys are the worst. They're just so nefarious and, you know, dark and, you know, all this stuff that happened in the group and I don't deny it at all, it just didn't happen early on. It was a very slow place. Probably six or seven years in the group before that stuff started happening.

[A]

This is the way cults typically operate, right? They draw people with the. The glamour and all the good stuff and the future promises. And once you get so far down the road, the point of no return is when they introduce the, the evil.

[B]

Or the.

[A]

Trafficking, the child abuse or.

Xenu, the galactic overlord, whatever your cult God is. That's when the crazy stuff comes in.

[B]

Yeah.

Yeah, it's. I think Berg was making it up as he went. He may have had some sort of.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

He may have.

[A]

At what point did you meet him?

[B]

I met him in Texas.

[A]

Oh. Early on.

[B]

Okay. He was.

Charismatic, a bit spooky. I mean, I. I wasn't used to anybody of his demeanor. You know, he wore dark sunglasses all the time, even at night. And the, the rumor was that the reason he did it is because he could see all your sins and it freaked out new believers. So I don't know what the excuse was. Maybe, maybe it was bloodshot. I don't really know. But that's the air. He. He would just kind of pop up when you weren't expecting him and, you know, say something profound and, you know, kind of throw you off guard. It was. It was.

I wasn't particularly attracted to him or repulsed by him. I was just fascinated because I never.

[A]

Saw anyone, like, mysterious.

[B]

Yeah.

So as time went on, his.

What ha. To me, it seems like if you give a. A guy with narcissistic personality disorder, the attention that he was getting from these wildly enthusiastic young.

You know, virile kind of young people, that kind of a crowd, he's going to do something with it eventually. If, if. Whether he was thinking about it in the original case or not, it morphed that way. So he started getting, you know, concubines or whatever you want to. You know, he had other girls with him from time to time, most of which we knew about one, but we didn't know about the others. So. And that was kind of kept hush hush because it would freak us out. You know, we were not allowed to make out with our betrothed and he was messing around with other people's wives, you know, so that was. It was, that leaked out later. Okay. But he would slowly introduce ideas of more sexual freedom. We were pretty repressed, you know, I mean, we were, you know, like church Christians but on steroids. I mean, we were really intense about everything. So he had to kind of steer us into a path where we'd be a little more liberated. Skinny dipping or, you know, that kind of stuff.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But.

Once he got into, into a place where he had several thousand followers all over the world and was living separate from any of the communities, he lived on his own, just he and his wife and a few helpers kind of thing, then he had the liberty to do whatever he want, whenever he wanted and just got stronger and stronger. And he got the bright idea that, you know, maybe we should use.

Our sexual energy and attractiveness to the public as a way of gaining recruits. Show them the love of God in a physical way, like you would feed them or take care of them if they're wounded or that kind of thing. And that's the way he built on it. Slowly. First it was just matter of, of don't be afraid to flirt, you know, just to engage in a flirtatious type of conversation if it will help you draw that person into a deeper conversation and a longer conversation. And then it went from that where he started. He and his second wife were, were going to.

Dance lessons in London and meeting all these lonely guys. And eventually she started hooking up with them as a way to give them the gospel. And they got a few recruits from that and they thought, well, let's, let's take this show on the road. So they launched a worldwide rollout of this new plant called Flirty fishing, which I hope you don't have.

[A]

Flirty fishing?

[B]

Yeah, don't, don't Google it.

[A]

Don't Google it? Why?

[B]

No, I mean it's, they got, they.

[A]

They like drew manuals for this. Right, right, exactly.

[B]

And that's, you know, they did like.

[A]

Comic book style illustrations and, and manuals describing and teaching folks how to do, engage in the flirty fishing. And it was, it was mainly the women who were doing this, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, occasionally you might end up in a kind of a relationship with a person of the opposite sex if you're a male. But.

That wasn't the ticket, you know.

So that's when things started getting really crazy.

[A]

Because how long were you in it before he introduced this flirty fishing stuff?

[B]

Yeah, I was just trying to think about that. And I haven't visited the literature in a long time, but I'm thinking it was probably six or seven years at least. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, that stuff, God's whores.

Look at that.

[B]

So, yeah, it's.

It's not something like I, I really brag about.

[A]

And when did he change his name to Moses?

[B]

What happened was it was an early article when they were on the road camping in state parks and buses and stuff, one of the guys came out and said, this is like Moses and the children of Israel. So that's. We got the name Moses and the children of God there. And then he later took. David was his original name, but he also takes on the character. He. He feels that he. He combines the anointing of the prophet Moses and the anointing of King David in one person as this great end time prophet, which we have a whole, we had a whole kind of theology about where in the Bible this speaks about this guy. But it's all patched together in a very weird way eventually.

[A]

Interpretation.

[B]

Yeah. Most Bible scholars identify it as Messianic, as Christ. But he had a way of twisting it into this is me and this is a new. The change will be as great as from the Old Testament to the New Testament, from the New Testament to the end time church. So the idea was this is going to be really a dramatic departure.

And the central piece of what he was going for in it was this thing he called the law of love.

And in it he sort of said, it doesn't really matter. There's no right or wrong outside of love. You know, love is the whole key to doing. If you're doing it in love, it's good. So there were a few parameters. What would be loving and what wouldn't, but not many. And he took it further and further and further as time went on and eventually started with. With his own. He wasn't having sex with his son, but his helpers were when he was just two years old, three years old. Just. I don't, I don't think it was the intercourse, but it was, you know.

Oral sex and that kind of thing.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

Yeah, it was really, really hard to take. I mean.

[A]

And how did you guys know about this?

[B]

They published it. They send out photos. They would touch up the photos so the adult could not be recognizable but.

[A]

And they would distribute it to all the members.

[B]

To the members only. It wasn't something you'd hand out on the street or you guarded it. You know, it was a very secretive thing. But it's so hard to say because to put myself back into my 26 or 27 year old head. I now was married. I had another partner who was soon to become my wife. I had seven kids.

It was a real.

I had five kids and then I got two more real quick after that. But.

With how many you're pretty committed. I had five with my first wife. And then when we added another member which a long story but eventually it was. It was not commonly practiced in the group but it wasn't uncommon either. It was to have two wives was.

Simultaneously. Yeah.

And it started out as a. The idea was they wanted to involve. There was too many Americans in the group. They wanted more international people. So if you were a leader, an American leader with an American wife, you, you had to take on another trainee or a partner. Didn't have to be a woman. It could be a man, whatever. But as a team that would be leadership in a, in a three way kind of community.

Well, if you start.

Having sex and sharing your, your, your bonds grow quite intense. It's not, it's not. Turn it on, turn it off. So it's. We're pretty entangled. Yeah. I don't know. You know, my wife has her convictions about what we're doing. I was starting to have some doubts. My best friend who had been in the group as well that I'd brought into the group but he had become Mo's right hand man. And part of my willingness to follow was the fact. Well, if it's okay with Mike, things have got to be okay. I know he's not going to do something like that. You know, that's, that's wrong. So if he's convinced, I feel safe. But he ended up getting kicked out because he challenged. So that was a crisis for me and I. So here I am. I was at the time a pretty big leader. I had. I was over about, I don't know, probably a dozen countries, works all over and, and all this kind of.

[A]

You were in charge of a dozen country groups in different countries.

[B]

Right. So maybe, I don't know, probably 30 or 40 different communities, but spread all the way from Bangladesh to Greece and parts of North Africa. So it was a massive area. And you know, what did I know? I had all I knew was 19 year olds education and the Bible and, and a very particular Interpretation of the Bible.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So.

But everyone around me, my wife, my kid, we're all involved in this thing that's. That's kind of all consuming. You don't have, like, outside friends and stuff. You know, it's just your. Your whole life is tied up in the community and committed to it. You're still experiencing miracles. I gotta admit. They started getting less and less as time went on. That miraculous aspect of our life became more.

Strategic. We'd figure out, well, this works good. Let's try busking. Let's do this. Let's, you know, different ways to raise money. FFing was one of them. Because people would be quite generous with people. Yeah, okay.

And I, you know, I felt the real change going on. And I got in trouble for having, I don't know, bad attitude or something. They just didn't think I was.

Committed enough. I wasn't. I didn't have enough of the spirit of David, of. Of our leader's spirit.

To properly lead. So we got canned. And it was a big, you know, a public denunciation and letters going to. Everyone you know in the world is reading about you and all these things. Some of them are making statements about what jerk you are. It's a hard. It's a hard thing to go through. I was quite tempted at that point. Just like this, you know, I. I can't do this anymore. But it was my whole life. My wife, my kids. By this time, two wives. It was.

I couldn't emotionally allow myself to get strong enough on my conviction that this is wrong. I should leave because I knew it probably cost me my family. I just didn't think my wife would come with me. We were living overseas. We had no money of our own.

[A]

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[B]

Oh boy. Well, it depended on visas for one thing. You know, like India, you get a visa for six months a year. You might stretch it for two years if you had a connection, but then you gotta leave. So, you know, we'd be bouncing around from India to Athens to, oops.

Tehran to Cairo, you know, just we were always, you know, on some kind of a mission.

[A]

Where were your children during all of this?

[B]

Eventually? Well, there was one period when we ended up back in the States.

For about maybe a year if that. And our idea was we were going to go back to India but this time on a business visa. So we were trying to start a business here that we could sponsor ourselves as buyers and go to India and buy handicrafts and whatnot, which didn't work out. But at the same time I got an invitation to go to Mexico. And so what we did was the kids. My oldest son is very talented musician and my wife could also play guitar and sing. And we had another team member who was also quite good and fluent in several languages. So the kids formed a music group and they became quite popular.

First in Mexico. We performed all the, all over the Yucatan, in every prison in, in the Yucatan.

Five star hotels. We were on television, we did shows for the mayor, you know, that kind of stuff. We quite popular all the while camping on the beach. But.

We started sending our newsletter that we've sent to folks that were contributors that weren't in the group but would send donations to us to help us with our work to other folks around the world. And one of our friends was in Egypt and he said, you know, I think you could do this in Cairo. You could be a children's musical act here. Why don't you pray about it? So we did and I don't know, six months later we were performing in Cairo. You know, it was just kind of a.

That the kids enjoyed it to a certain extent, but it was also Child labor. I mean, we were just, you know, you know, kind of the Jackson family or Bruno Mars and in Hawaii as a kid, you know, that kind of a thing in our head. But, I mean, in retrospect, obviously there's a better way to do a children's music group than the way we did with street buses.

[A]

And these were all your kids in.

[B]

This group, except for the very little ones. Right. Once they were old enough, they were. They were. They would perform matching outfits and choreographs and all that. Quite cute.

[A]

And what about, like. Like, was there any sort of, like, internal education program for the kids? Like, were they learning basic stuff, like, about the world and about life?

[B]

And we had a very basic homeschool program, but it was pretty basic, really. Reading, writing, and arithmetic. That's about it. And. But they were all very verbal because we didn't have TVs. We didn't do any of that. It was just all reading some. My kids have, you know, amazing vocabularies and love to read. But.

We sadly, you know, once you got those down, there's so much more you have to learn in order to get ready for life, and we didn't do that. By that time, they were pretty much, you know, when they're 12 or 13, they're pretty much part of the workforce. You know, they're on the dishes, they're helping cook, they're going out on the streets to distribute literature and raise money and go perform.

Which at the time, you know, I justified it in my own head as, you know, this. This is how all children's music groups, you know, if you trace a lot of rock musicians history, they started in a children's music group, but it was different. And I. I know it was.

Not. Not a good thing to do with the kids that way, you know.

And I, you know, I feel bad about it. Feel. Feel that it was injurious to their. You know, they shouldn't have had to bear that kind of burden. So. I know where we live. I'm not sure.

[A]

Yeah, we were just talking about how you were in charge of the 12 different countries, factions in 12 different countries and managing them and. And jumping all around. And then your best friend.

[B]

Yeah, so we got the. We got the ax. Then we ended up going. We went out to Sri Lanka, and we're trying to start a business out there with another friend in the group, which you could do. In certain countries, you were allowed to have secular activities if you were in a country that wasn't. Didn't have a Christian background or donor base.

And real hard. I mean, I honestly could have easily left the group back then if I was convinced that my family would stay intact. But every time I got right up to the edge of it, I would back off. I would just get scared, thinking, I don't. I don't want to do this. I'm going to lose my family.

[A]

You know, what did your kids think about it all?

[B]

Well, they're kids, so they were, you know.

[A]

Do you ever have conversations with them about that? About. But no, no, back then about, like, potentially leav. Or like. No, I would never ask you.

[B]

I would. I wouldn't. If I even brought it up to my wife directly, she would report me. I would be sent off to Timbuktu to wash dishes and, you know, get retrained. So I didn't. I couldn't openly discuss that, but I just put it off and thought, well, maybe we'll find a way, a niche that we can kind of be far enough away from, from leadership and all the craziness that's going on and just be missionaries. We'll just do our own thing and be missionaries.

Work for a while. But it's. It's a very difficult tightrope to walk. We ended up back in the States, then in Mexico. Kids got involved, then back to Cairo, then, I don't know, it was jumping around a lot. But during the last 10 years or so that we were in the group, I was pretty much independent. I didn't really. I tried not to get into leadership again because it was a bummer. It just. There was nothing good about it.

But every once in a while I would. And then the crisis of conscience would come up. You can't do this. This is wrong. And the stuff with kids was getting much more serious, much more widespread.

Thankfully, I can just.

[A]

And known by people. Yeah, known by all the members.

[B]

You had to know. It was part of the publications. It was part of the.

It might not be happening in your home, it might not be happening in your location, but you knew it was happening. It was published everywhere, and you're always going to brush up against it somewhere. So that was a crisis for me. The group started having to change because you can't get away with that stuff indefinitely. Somebody's going to blow the whistle on you. So then we became much more of this, you know, freaked out, you know, draw the curtains.

[A]

Paranoid.

[B]

Yeah, paranoid. And we, you know, rent the house and have 20 people in it, but you'd think there were just three people living there, going in and out in tinted vans, you know, all this kind of just a crazy way to live, except we were all freaked out that they were going to take our kids away. So that was the. Once it got so bizarre that I realized I am doing nothing for God here. I'm. All I'm doing is just playing a role in this abusive organization. I have to get out. I hope they'll come, but I don't know. I don't know what they'll do. And that was a pretty big moment for me. They finally came out with some list of rules that was just so insane. I just said, wait, why don't you just tell us a list of the things we're allowed to do? Because it would be a lot shorter than the list of the things we're not allowed to do. So. And that blew up. Then I was in the doghouse, and next thing I knew, I was being invited to serve the Lord in some other capacity to leave the group.

[A]

How did you protect your kids from the abuse?

[B]

Well, you know, I. I don't like to discuss my. My own children's personal experiences. And it really depends on where you were, how old you were at the time that this particular activity got widespread within the group.

Just some. There was, in my mind, clearly a handful of people who were just flat out pedophiles, just were having a field day.

A lot of people who got into that activity did it with the believing this is the way the logic went. If. If we already were sold on the fact that God created sex, it's good, it's beautiful, it's a gift.

We also had crossed over. It's not only if you're married, you can share sexual love with other people in a beneficial and loving way. So once you're over that hump, then you think, well, the idea was in the Bible, people were, you know, get betrothed at the age of 12. You know, it was. Mary was probably 12 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

And the. And the. Allegedly the apostles were children as well, or teenagers.

[B]

Yeah, some of them were. Some of them had kids. But it was.

The idea was. I forgot where I was going with that.

[A]

I was asking about how you protected your kids, some of the stuff.

[B]

So then once it opened up to the point where, yeah, you know, kids can have sex when they're teenagers and maybe an adult could have sex with a teenager in certain circumstances.

Very uncomfortable, Very uncomfortable. I had teenage girls. You know, it wasn't. It wasn't at all.

[A]

And this was writing. This was. This was stuff that was written and given to you or this was explained to you in person, in like a meeting or something?

[B]

Both. Both. Yeah. It was. It was not a secret. So, I mean, you really can't say. You know, I know some people who still kind of like, I never saw it. I didn't know what's going on. I don't believe that. I just.

[A]

It was everywhere.

[B]

Unless you're willingly blind, you would know that this was going on. You might, you might try to in describe it in the. In the idealized love. And, and there's really no difference between a. A child exploring sexuality and an adult. And maybe they can do it together, you know, that kind of thing. And I think people got drawn into this idea that I have to educate my child sexually in, in a. In a loving, you know.

Manner and introduce them to this. Well, I didn't. I didn't like it at all. I was not a part of. I never had sex with a child or anyone underage at all.

But it's a miracle. Honestly, it's very hard to imagine how I escaped from any situation because of the places that I lived. There was an awful lot of it going on around, and some of my kids were affected by it. I won't, you know, discuss the details of their. Their situations. It's up to them to. And they do. They. They in. In their own world, will express their. Their challenges and difficulties overcoming the trauma of those kind of early exposures.

Once we got out, it was.

In terms of the rest of the group, I think it really went. Berg himself, I do believe, was a pedophile. He had. I mean, he was just. In everything, he was just, you know, I'm just a dangerous, dangerous man.

But.

And I do think there were other people in the group who had. Who just had a field day with it. And they're very, very.

Just selfish, just going after people that it was going to be hurtful and they didn't care, but not everybody. And I know some people who got caught up in it, who deeply regretted it and have recovered their bonds with their kids in a. In a. In a beautiful way, you know, just by admitting they were just.

Crazy, you know, just went nuts in this whole thing.

So, you know, I gotta say, my kids are remarkable in the way they've.

Struggled through the issues of their upbringing and found a way that they have certain strengths of character and of resilience that.

Not too many people do. And so I got a lot of respect for him and I had to apologize. I couldn't tell you how many times just for the Stuff that we did, the stuff that went wrong, stuff that happened to them on my watch, you know, just shouldn't. Shouldn't have happened at all. And it's not just my kids. It's, you know, I don't know how many kids, but in the thousands of kids who. In that window where this was part of the group's identity and practices and whatever age they were, you know, depending on if they were preteens or teens or whatever their experience and where they were. If they were in a central headquarters situation, bad news. If they were out in the field somewhere, maybe not. Maybe they didn't even have it might not have come up.

[A]

Where was Berg during all this? Where was he based? Texas.

[B]

He moved around. He left the States pretty early. I think he thought the FBI was after him.

He lived in England for a while. He lived in Switzerland for a long time. Tenerife. He lived in, you know, the.

Was one of those islands off the coast of Spain.

He jumped around. He was. I think his last place was Portugal. I think that's where he died. It's all very secretive, but that's. That's my understanding anyway, so I was out by that time.

[A]

What was the straw that broke the camel's back for you?

[B]

For me.

I think it was just. This is. There was no. There was no, this is good, this is bad, this is good, this is bad. It was all whomp. There's nothing good about this anymore. I can't even preach the gospel. If I should lead someone to Christ, I can't give them my phone number because it's a security law, you know, rule. And it was just, I'm doing all this and I'm not treating my kids. By this time, the sex with kids had been outlawed within the group, although I think it was still practiced. It wasn't practiced where we were. The last couple years that we were in, it had been verboten too much, you know, too much bad publicity. So they stopped all that. But my kids were still messed up and I could see they're not ready for life. I can't. Unless they're going to be part of this community all of their lives. We're in a. We have to make a change. We have to be able to give them a better opportunity.

And it's personally agonizing for me just to.

Watch what had been my dream turn into an absolute nightmare and not figure. Didn't know how to get out, you know, didn't really know. So by the time we did make the break, we had spent two Years in England, visas ran out, came back to the States. By this time, I was already thinking, if I'm going to make a break, I'd rather be in the States. At least I'm in my own country. I don't have to worry about visas and all that and figure out some way of changing our lifestyle.

[A]

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[B]

So, and within six months, the shit hit. You know, Persona non grata. Wasn't allowed on the property.

Really is. They're not, you don't, you don't go out with a friendly handshake and a gold watch. You get pummeled, you know, so. And my, the kids, all their best friends. Not physically. I mean, you know, you're, you're just, you're, you're a real stinker, you know, just. People just dump on you. And my kids were confused because I. All their lives I had been preaching, this is the way we serve God. And now I'm saying, nope, we can't do this. It's not right, we're not doing it. And all that's very hard. And they're losing their friends.

[A]

What's the age group again? What's the age gap between how many kids you got at that point? At that point, how many kids.

[B]

Had 16. One more was born after we left.

[A]

16 kids, and you're around all of them every day?

[B]

No. My second wife was still in England getting ready to have our sixth baby together when we came back to the States. And she's from New Zealand, so it was complicated. So we just figured, you have your baby here.

And then we'll figure out visas later or whether we go to Mexico or we'll do something, we'll figure out a way to do it because she wasn't American.

In the meantime, I got kicked out of the group. She stayed and.

She faced a complicated.

Challenge in her own right. That meant she's a single woman with six kids and, you know, totally at the mercy of the group, but that's what she felt she was supposed to do. And it was a, you know, she was kind enough, which was unusual in the group. She Was kind enough to allow me to maintain a friendly, ongoing relationship with all of our kids.

[A]

So, you know, what was the oldest.

[B]

Kid at the time we left? Probably.

13, 14 maybe. Yeah, down to a baby.

But.

So I, you know, every couple years I'd get over to England to see him or New Zealand or Mexico or wherever they were. Every few years I'd go over and try to, you know, remember everybody's birthday every year, Christmas, all that kind of stuff. So we, we had a friendly relationship. But I was always, it was suspicious if I came to visit. Like in England they wouldn't let me stay, spend the night in the house. So, you know, I had to stay in a trailer park up the, up the street, that kind of thing. So it was, she was still make sure I could see him. I wasn't allowed to talk to him about the group or anything or what, why we left or. It was a very confusing thing for them trying to figure out why his dad, who, you know, this guy is, he was so part of this group that how can he be against it now? I don't understand. You know, it was really hard for them. Amazingly, we still, they're all out now, thank God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we're pretty good friends, you know.

[A]

What about your wife?

[B]

Second wife, you mean either of them.

[A]

Are either of them still in?

[B]

No, no, none of them are in anymore. It took, it took Melissa, our New Zealand partner, a long time to come around. She was mentally convinced and I'm not 100 sure whether that's just because.

She couldn't imagine life that wasn't part of the group. So.

And you know, it was going to be complicated if she decided to come with us and figure out all the things we had to do to figure out where to live and get visas and all that.

So she held on for a long time in the group, but eventually she finally says, I get what you're saying. Yeah, this is wrong. And the kids are all pretty well adjusted. I have a son in Mexico City, is a high paid consultant, you know, today. Yeah.

You know, they're all successful in their fields, musicians and artists and medical field, all kinds of things. They're, they're, you know, quite.

Good, happy, well rounded. Everybody likes them. They're very lovable people.

[A]

It's a miracle, man.

[B]

I won't say that about all my own kids who grew up with me. Several of them had serious psychiatric problems along the way.

[A]

Like What?

[B]

Well, in 1997 we were living in the States. I had.

Three of my oldest kids stayed in the group after we left because they were. All two of them were married, my God. And had babies.

[A]

How old were they?

[B]

Maybe between the ages of 16. He was the youngest. He wasn't married 16 up to probably 21. And you know, we just had to wait patiently because you can't just run in and try to talk somebody out of what they're doing, especially if they have kids. You know, I know the trial that they're going to have. So it's just giving it time and slowly life would start to. Yeah, maybe what dad's saying is true. And they'd pack up and leave.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So thankfully it all came back together. But in 1997, one of our daughters was in college. Two of them were in college roommates together and.

One of them, just shy of her 19th birthday was killed in a car accident. And it was, you know, utterly.

Devastating to, to everyone in, in our family. Just, we couldn't imagine it. And a super, super lovely young woman. If you took a vote of my kids, who's your favorite brother or sister, she would have won all the votes. So we were smashed and you know, it took a while for us to get our feet again. At that time we also had a 13 year old who was already, she was off the charts. Brilliant, beautiful, perfect pitch, musically gifted, just an amazing kid and a very unusual personality and just obviously had some personality disorders. So it was really hard to for her win. Her big sister died. She got more and more wild and ran away from home when she was 15.

Got into a lot of trouble.

But she was doing better. She had, she was now 23. This is some, some years later, 10 years, 2005.

And.

She, she had gotten married. Her husband was a nice guy and I don't think he knew how to, how to help her. But.

During one of her breaks with reality, she ended up overdosing on alcohol and her psychiatric prescriptions accidentally and you know.

Again, rough on the whole family, you know, so that has left its echoes. Some of the, I, I admire every one of the kids but you know, some of them handled it better than others and, and some of them struggled, you know, still still struggle with different issues.

Which I'm, I'm sure are related to the family, but they were so young that they didn't have any of those kind of experiences. It was definitely not part of their.

But the echoes. They hear their big brothers and sisters talk. So all of that carries down and it makes it a hard cross for them to carry too. I, you know, just.

You know, it's, it's A tough thing. You're. Me. I'm. You know, I was 19 when I joined the group. I had a reasonably good education. I was aware of many things in the world, and.

I have to take full responsibility for everything I did, you know, and there's just. You know, I can explain it in terms of what psychological conditioning is and how it works. I mean, I loved your interview with Rebecca Lemo off there. That was good. I love her book.

But.

Yeah, it's just. The struggle is, as a parent, I can't live constantly in full view of everything I ever did wrong. So you slowly have to forgive yourself if you've kind of learned what you did, why you did it, what went wrong, how your brain got to that place, and you're willing to say I was wrong and you're not. It's not. It's not like somebody hypnotizes you, you know, it's. They're all little agreements you have to take. I had to agree to do stuff, you know, it wasn't just. They couldn't just make me, but they would convince me in a way. But it also sort of appealed to me, the thought, yeah, I could have another wife. Yeah. So.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I can't say I'm just a totally innocent bystander. You know, it was a. There's an appeal that holds you in something.

And there's the hard part, you know, there's part you don't like and you. You. It's constantly back and forth, but I won't say that I never.

You get let. The way the Bible puts it, you're led away of your own lusts, you know, so there's a certain part of us that is. If you get suckered into something, chances are you probably were lusting after it, you know?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's the. You have to unpack all that, repent and forgive yourself. You have to be willing to change, admit what happened, see it as wrong, do the best you can to. To make up for it, apologize to those you've hurt, and work hard to try to build the trust again, you know?

[A]

Do you think your kids forgive you?

[B]

Yeah, I do.

Although if they didn't, I'm not sure they'd tell me, you know, and it does. In. In moments of high pressure, sometimes something will come out. You know that. Look, dad, you know, what can you say really, seriously, you know, this is what happened to us, you know, so it was. It's sure. But nonetheless, they love me. They seek advice sometimes. You know, we. We were good friends. Everybody lives in our nine.

Surviving children, eight live within a. Probably a 10 mile radius. They still love each other and raise their kids together and, you know, we're a big loving, happy bunch.

[A]

Nine of them are alive.

[B]

Yeah, we had one son, moved to Atlanta. I think he just couldn't handle the drama of a big family. But we're still very close. But that he's not.

At the Pat's game every weekend or something, you know, it's. He's got his own life, busy life. But yeah, I, I respect them. I'm, I give them kudos for being able to come up with a forgiving attitude. But I think if you really love somebody, they feel it, you know, they know that you'll do anything for them, what, however you screwed up, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's obviously a lot of people could not live with themselves after that. A lot of people committed suicide after leaving that. And even when they were in the cult.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I remember, I heard stories about, you.

[B]

Know, there were a few adult suicides, but the, the, the tragic piece is that so many of the second generation, I don't even know the statistics, but it's a lot, you know, that end up, I don't know, just getting into a place that they can't find a way out of.

They don't have the internal structure, you know, from, have been raised in a chaotic fashion.

And, you know, they have some stuff, tough stuff to chew through. So I mean, as an adult, every time it happens, it's crushing. There was, I don't know if you're familiar with the whole Ricky Rodriguez thing.

[A]

I am. Yeah. But you should explain it for people.

[B]

So 2005, just shortly after.

Shortly before my daughter passed away.

[A]

Ricky, were you in, in 2005? Were you out?

[B]

Oh, yeah, we were. We've been out for 15 years almost.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I was involved with a, with a ministry called Meadow Haven, which is, it was a transitional home for people coming out of high control groups, cults. And you could stay there for up to six months. And they had a counseling program and a lot of different ways to help people get back on track after being, you know, 20 years in a cult or whatever. Right. But. So we were involved serving on the board of this ministry and trying to work, you know, going to International Cultic Studies association events where we would explain our past and try to get.

A deeper understanding of the dynamics and icsa, the International Cultic Studies association, people get it. It doesn't, you know, they have hundreds of different groups represented, but they get the same dynamic you know, it's like McDonald's or Taco Bell. Different menu, but same standard operating procedure. And so cults are that way. They just.

Inevitably end up doing certain things the same. So they get the dynamic and they get how warped your sense of right and wrong can become in that atmosphere. So.

Trying to think of why I was going there.

2000. Oh, yeah. So.

One, the kid, the, the, the child of Ricky.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Ricky, he was a love child. She born to a guy from the Canary Islands and Maria, who was the second wife of Berg.

[A]

Oh, oh. Ricky was not Berg's wife. I mean, I'm sorry, Ricky wasn't Berg's son.

[B]

Not biologically, no.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He was, you know, Spanish father and.

He had left the group. It was very, very. You can imagine what he went through. Holy smokes. He's, you know, he's been publicly.

Lauded all over the, the world by our group. He was, he was the prince, he was, you know, the up and coming heir to the throne kind of thing. A lot of pressure and it was obviously all that. He was the, the experimental test case for all the sex stuff with kids.

[A]

The moment he was born. Basically.

[B]

Yeah, he was abused sexually, I think maybe two or three, something like that. He was getting his diaper changed, you know, so that's kind of thing. So. And you know, the idea, I mean, they published it. It wasn't something like the Catholic Church or something. This is not done in a corner. It was not like secret, hide it, don't tell anybody. It was. No, this is great. This is, this is the way God's love is meant to function. We're supposed to be all, you know, utterly liberated in all, in all ways.

[A]

So not only are they doing to this, to this child, they're, they're publicly, they're bragging about it to everybody in.

[B]

The group as a kind of a how to manual kind of. This is, this is the way we suggest you raise your kids. You know, so that's why it caught on so, so widespread. So anyway, he had.

No kid, raised in the family, had it easy, but he had it more difficult than almost anyone I can imagine. Just the amount of scrutiny and the amount of abuse and control. He, he got married, they left the group. He had become an electrician. He was, but he was severely troubled, just eaten alive and constantly feeling like I gotta do something to save my generation from the family. And he got it fixed in his brain that he was gonna kill his mother and track her down, but she's living incognito. He didn't know where she was and on in the path of trying to. Oops. Trying to find her.

He ended up.

[A]

He made a video, right?

[B]

Yeah, he made a video.

[A]

Made a video talking about. And you can find this on YouTube, I think. Yeah, basically like he has the knife and the gun. He's showing it off and telling about.

[B]

And you can see his demeanor is just, you know, flat. He's not raging angry or anything. He's just cold. He's come to a place of a decision in his life and he's ready to commit violence. And he's, you know, like that weird piece when you make a decision, even if it's a really bad one. That's what he. The vibe that he carried on his tape.

So after he.

[A]

Don't play the audio on this, Steve. Sorry, continue.

[B]

After he. He ended up. Well, he ended up finding one of Maria's assistants who was living. I forget why, but she was living on her own.

And tracked her down and was trying to extract the information. Where is my mother?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And was torturing her to do it. Ended up killing her.

And then drove off into the desert and killed himself.

So this was, you know, I didn't know him well, but I knew him. You met him? Yeah, as a kid, you know, and I had just come back from India and. And I was visiting, you know, David Berg and his headquarters situation in southern France and he came over to hang out. I just shown him pictures of India. He was so interested, you know. Oh, how did they do that? Oh, what's that? You know, just I really liked him. He was a good kid and happy, you know, he wasn't. He didn't seem to be. He was very comfortable with an adult company and stuff, you know, so it was real. It hit me really hard.

Not because I was so emotionally connected to. To Ricky, but because he was a cop. He was a part of the cohort of my kids, so.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

You know, it's just a total shock. So the entire ex member, second generation X member community, you know, went ballistic over the whole thing. It was a website formed with a whole lot of very, very traumatic testimonies.

When it first broke, ABC News wanted to do a story, a little background piece on cults and the group. And so they contacted Bob, pardon a friend of ours who runs the Meadow Haven project and said, do you know anyone from the Children of God? And he says, yeah, let me. I'm not sure you'll want to, but, you know, maybe. So it was a. They wanted me to get interviewed, but the tape hadn't come out yet. We all knew that it had happened. It was newspaper stories, but there was no footage released or anything. ABC had the tape. This one, yeah. Okay. So he.

The, the. I said, look, I'll do it, but you know, if you could like put the screen over me and change my voice or something like that, you know, I got kids in school, grandkids in school.

That gets out. I know how kids can be with other kids, you know. Yeah, it's gonna be rough for them, so. And I was just scared, you know, like, wow, this is really, really.

Upsetting, you know, in every way.

So I said, I'll do this, but I'm not going to talk about my own kids experience because that's their story to tell, not mine. I will answer questions about the group and so on and so forth and give you the background piece to, you know, in any way that I can help.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And.

So I went into. They had a hotel room set up in Boston, you know, with lights and all that kind of stuff. And. But before doing the interview, he said, I have a tape to show you, you know, and he hit play. And you know, God, I'm just utter, utter.

Completely shocked. I was a mess of just tears and snot. Couldn't catch my breath, I couldn't talk. I was just so upset thinking about Ricky.

All the kids that, that face the same type of.

Emotional challenges that he did. Maybe not to the same extent, maybe they are, who knows? I'm not sure. I don't know everybody's experience, but it's.

Personally upsetting. But more so because I know that I played a role in this group getting as far as it had, you know, for so many years.

And I'm, you know, responsible to some extent for all the shit that's happening, you know, with all the second generation kids. So that became, you know, a real difficult.

Reality to deal with in my everyday life.

Thankfully, they never aired the clip, you know, of me in the interview because I was completely, I think I was just too snot covered to use on tv. So they went a different way, which I was grateful for. But yes, that's.

The biggest thing. For the last, from probably.

1995, once we had kind of got educated about what had happened to us and we began to see clearly and get some cult insights.

Until the present day. I mean, I got grandkids, you know, they weren't even a twinkle in my son's eyes yet, you know, that are affected in the bang on repercussions really well, they hear the stories and that, you know, makes it a little hard to feel the same way of Grandma and Grandpa, you know, because, you know, my kids actually understand it better than some of my grandkids just simply because, of course, kids understood, you know, how this happened, that it wasn't dad didn't drain this thing up.

Yeah, well, you know, that's, that's my story. Wow, man.

[A]

And this, so.

This, this Ricky guy, he was. That we were just talking about, he was proclaimed by.

Berg to be like the next Messiah or something like that.

[B]

He would be the prince once.

Berg died, which he was prophesying that he was going to die soon. That I think the doctrine they came up with that Ricky and his mother would be the two end time prophets in the Bible, in the book of Revelation. So that was a lot of pressure put on a kid.

[A]

How was this group never taken down by law enforcement or the FBI?

[B]

Well, in other countries it did get in trouble, a lot of trouble in Australia and Argentina, France. Kids were taken away and, you know, held in facilities for months, you know, trying to de. Deconstruct what's going on here. But the kids were, were actually trained to how to answer the authorities, no, we don't have sexual contact. No. You know, they were just trained to do that because we have to do this. We're deceivers. Yet true, the Bible says, because otherwise they're going to stop our work for the Lord. So the kids, you know, they, they're just brainwashed. Yeah, there was nothing to wash.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

They were just sponges.

[A]

Exactly. They were just sponges.

[B]

That's the point. And so sometimes kids did end up being permanently separated from their parents if there was a particularly egregious situation. But most of the time they'd end up getting them back. Everybody to leave the country, go to somewhere new, start a new group under a new name, you know, a new outreach.

And they did. You know, that's the way it worked in the States. That's one of the reasons we got out of the States. Mo made a. Berg made a big point early on of getting out of the States. And I think it wasn't just because we're supposed to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. It was also because the FBI won't get you if you're overseas. And if we're here, we're, we're much more vulnerable.

[A]

So, okay, so you said you, you left in, what was it, 95, 96. We left in 91, early on in 91.

[B]

And it took us about four or five years before we felt like we'd even come to a place where we could begin to understand our own experience. You know, we didn't come out. I already knew that Berg was wrong about a whole lot of stuff, but I hadn't unpacked.

[A]

Did you ever confront him?

[B]

Not personal, not face to face, but that's what got me the boot, you know, when I basically said, look, can anyone show me from the Bible how this stuff can be justified? And they said, well, maybe you'll be better off some. Some other organization. Which was rough, you know.

My wife didn't have a clue until it happened. She didn't even know I was thinking.

[A]

About this, you know, because you can't talk to anybody. Yeah, you got to keep it internal.

[B]

And I give her kudos for saying yeah. I think she thought, well, if I go with him, I'll be able to help him come back to his senses and come back to the group. But.

Thankfully, given enough time, she began to realize that I was right about an awful lot of that.

[A]

Are you still with her?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

54 and a half years. Wow. The strange thing is we met the group the same exact day at that same Jerry Rubin rally. She was hitchhiking from LA up to Big Sur and her ride stopped to get some weed in Santa Barbara and she got out and went to the conference, to the. To the demonstration. And I was on my way to Berkeley and got dropped in Santa Barbara, so.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

So, you know, wasn't love at first sight, but we were on the same journey. And when, you know, it's. It's really an amazing thing because I don't know your married situation or anything. Are you married or.

[A]

Yes, I am.

[B]

Well, It's. How long?

[A]

Six years.

[B]

Six years.

I. I feel like I've been married for 54 years to the same woman, but that woman has changed 54 times.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Because we're. We just have so much change in our life. So it's constantly fresh, but we constantly. I think just having been through what we've been through in the group and then losing girls and just the, the tremendous effort it takes. First you're poor, you know, you got 11 kids. You know, you can cut grass and clean supermarket floors. You're going to have a tough time meeting the bills.

So all those kind of struggles of working our way slowly, slowly to a more stable financial situation and dealing with all the different trouble that my kids were having adjusting to 16 kids. Well, it was 11 with us.

Other partner, but yeah, still.

[A]

Well, that's more than a few kids.

[B]

All over the place.

[A]

I mean, when you got out, though.

[B]

Oh, yeah. No, it was a lot of kids. And, you know, it's just.

We were used to it, you know, it. We didn't get them all at once. They were one at a time. So you slowly, you know, develop a.

[A]

Plan and they become more independent slowly, how to.

[B]

How to pack your bedding and all that kind of stuff to move all the time. And it was, you know, I think all of our kids have. Have.

None of them want to have a big family, let's put it that way. They all are grateful that they grew up in a big family, but they know it's hard. There's a lot of sacrifices involved in, you know, being a child.

[A]

Where. Where's the other wife?

[B]

She's in Texas at the moment. She's actually from New Zealand, and she's at this place, you know, retirement age and where to? Where she wants to be. She'd lived in Mexico for most of the time. Oh, geez. At least 20 years, I guess. I love going to see her in Mexico because that's always fun. But, yeah, then she ended up in Texas for some reason. Two of our daughters are American citizens because one was born in the States as we were traveling through, and the other one was smart enough to come ask dad to help her get a passport before she turned 18. After 18, it's just a nightmare trying to get.

[A]

How much longer did she stay in after you left?

[B]

She's probably 20. No, even more than that. Probably 25. So she's recently out the last maybe seven or eight years, I think. And it was a slow, you know, because the group crumbled. You know, it became more or less an online, you know, QAnon type thing. I guess people still send in tithe money and all that, but not too many. And there's not. Not a lot of activity going on.

I really don't know what the. What the status is right now because there's a. I also have a brother who joined the group for quite a long time, and he still lives in Brazil. He's out of the group, but he stayed in quite a while. So he filled me in on, you know, more or less the trajectory, and when it just split apart, everybody just gets into, okay, how can I pay the bills? How can we get something going here that'll. That'll find us a way forward if we're not in a communal society?

[A]

Are you still a believer in Jesus Christ?

[B]

Very much. This is one of the interesting Things that I think.

Wow, you see my bookshelf taking a lot of reading and talking and.

Got to know Christians from every imaginable denomination through our business operations and so on. But it was.

Both my wife and I still feel as though the way we met Jesus was so dramatic. And so.

Give it your all. Just lay it all on the altar. This is not my own life. It's your yours. God. Do with me what you will. It did something to expand our idea about what faith in God is. You know, it's not just throwing out, you know, fourth quarter Hail Marys to the end zone and saying, lord, just please. You know, it's a relationship that is difficult for me to explain. How did God stay with me, answer prayer, help me have a. Whatever success we had as a family and at least a successful marriage.

[A]

All.

[B]

The while involved in some really nasty crap all around us and, and, you know, whatever level of participation, non participation, absolutely within our knowledge. And to me, that's. None of us can excuse the fact that we didn't, at the first sign of this, say, holy. This is not right. This is not, you know.

Going to a dance hall and picking up a lonely guy. This is much different. It's a, it's a real.

It's a difficult thing to chew through. And I, I think a lot of there. Some people don't make it. Some people just turn it off. Just. I don't ever want to think about the group again. I'm just getting, you know, some people bury it. Yeah, bury it. Get married. Don't even tell their new partner they were ever part of a group. I can't imagine that. But the, the thing is.

Once out, I've started sensing, I don't know if you have any kind. What's your. Do you have a faith of any kind or.

[A]

Not particularly. No, I'm not, I'm not a, like a devout Christian or anything like that, but I'm not like, I'm not an atheist or anything like that, but that.

[B]

Every once in a while, whatever your belief system is, you get these. A sense that there's something. It doesn't happen all day, every day, but every once in a while you go, wow, it's real. You know, this inner feeling that I have is real. And I think everybody has that. So I'm, I.

When I talk about what God thinks, it's. It's hard because I'm, I'm using language that's, you know, it's very difficult. You're talking about everything, you know, the, the whole. Shebang reality at its base.

It's it. You could be really wrong about a whole bunch of stuff and still be right about that inner voice, even though you. That inner voice may have tried, tried, tried to get through to you. No, get out now. You know, but if I didn't pick up the signal or I was too scared or I didn't want to lose my family.

God would allow me to still have a sense of his presence in my life, even though he's going to constantly try to show me, get the hell out of here. You know, so that once you're out, then it's kind of okay. I'm going to help you go through all this, pick up the pieces, take it out, look at it, what happened here? Deconstruct the whole thing and find out. Yeah, there's some stuff that was horrendous and abusive and dark, you know, nefarious, whatever, you know, term you want to use. Very dark. Dark, as you can imagine. And other stuff was, you know, I've got friends and loved ones around the world that we've shared experiences in God that we'll never forget, even though it was in the middle of chaos. It's an. It's an unusual story and I do think it's. It's probably true in everyone's life to some extent and.

In our life to an exceptional. It's pretty extreme.

[A]

Now, the. There is also. I should have brought this up earlier, but there was use of psychedelic drugs with kids as well, where they were allegedly given LSD and things like this by Berg's wife.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

You never saw anything?

[B]

It was a. You know, I smoked weed one time in Kathmandu and caught hell for it. You know, it was really drugs, was, you know, totally off the table.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

But, you know, it's interesting. I was just at Harvard, did a seminar, a webinar, I guess, a seminar on the topic the Psychedelic Jesus. And the speaker was an expert on the late 60s, early 70s, the whole hippie scene, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he's got a whole collection of this free press, you know, the hippie papers and all that and artwork. And he had an interesting theory that there's so many stories of people who got involved in the Jesus movement. I'm not sure you're familiar with the term the Jesus movement. Yeah, yeah, okay.

Very widespread there. You know, a lot of pastors in the country came out of the Jesus movement. They quickly, you know, went from hippie to. To.

Fairly mainstream quickly. But not us. We stayed out in the wilderness.

But.

What he, he. His theory was that there was so much LSD that. And all kinds of drugs that were preparing the way. Our, Myself, personally, my wife, most of my friends had had experiences that made us question the nature of reality while on psychedelics as kids, you know, 18, 19 years old.

That definitely prepared us for not only a spiritual experience, but a profound spiritual experience. So, you know, the average person who says the sinner's prayer doesn't turn their entire life upside down that day. You know, it's. It was a dramatic conversion experience, I think, partly prepared by lsd, by.

Psychedelics.

[A]

Do you think it was purely the psychedelics or do you think it was a combination of that and the vulnerability, the vulnerable state that you were in at the time that you discovered those people?

[B]

I, I was particularly vulnerable, but it was also, you know, something in the air. You know, the hippie thing was very powerful and, you know, just made you question everything, so. And lay it all on the line.

For your belief system. So, you know, whether I was going to become a political radical or whatever it was, I was not going to live, you know, the same life my parents lived. I was going to live in a radical way. And when I found out that Jesus was a radical, I, you know, took off. That was it.

[A]

Yeah, that's interesting. There's a lot, there's a lot of.

Texts that allude to the use of drugs during Jesus's time too. Yeah, like there's the Eleusinian mysteries and like the Greeks were doing. And there's lots of interpretations of. That involve psychedelic drugs in antiquity.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There's a lot of people that are advocating for it now, too. There's people that are, are advocating for the idea of introducing psychedelic drugs into the church.

[B]

Yeah, I'm actually part of a, an organization called Agari, if you heard of them. It's. It's been around for a couple years. Started by an Episcopal priest who was part of the Johns Hopkins experiments.

[A]

Yeah. Which John Hopkins experiment specifically?

[B]

It was the 2016. They. The report just came out because it was mired.

[A]

The religious leaders.

[B]

The religious leaders. Yeah. So he was a Episcopal priest. There was like, I don't know, 16 people. There were priests. I don't think there were any nuns, but there was, you know, a lot of different, not all one denomination there.

[A]

They had them from every religion, heads of every religion. They gave them psychedelic drugs and they.

[B]

Religious professionals.

[A]

Religious. Yeah, that was the quote, that was the title of it. Professionals. But they had like a, A Christian guy, a Catholic guy, Jewish dude, Hindu Every religion. Islam.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they would describe their experience on.

[B]

I think it was lsd, it was psilocybin.

[A]

Psilocybin. That's what it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And seeing how their experience would differ if they're, if they're, if their religious belief would influence that at all.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And.

They all had, I think 15 of the 16 ended up saying, yeah, we had a profound spiritual experience here that's, you know, dramatically impacted my, my walk, my faith walk and hunt. Hunt priest. The, the, the fellow who started it.

Eventually was so taken with the idea that, you know, more and more studies were coming out. How to Change youe Mind. Michael Pollan's book came out and there's a lot of conversation about the, the interplay between spirituality and psychedelics.

And he felt like it was something that people needed to discuss because whether you're advocating it or not, you're going to have, if you're a church anywhere in the United States, sooner or later someone's going to come up to you and say, you know, I've got this ketamine treatment going for my depression and wouldn't you know it, I had an experience with God, you know, and like, what do they do with it? What does it, what does the priest do with that? You know, so they're trying to get the discussion on the table, like how can the, the insights that, spiritual insights that people gain, not all the time, but quite often from the use of psychedelics with a spiritual. And understanding from your own spiritual tradition what it is that's, that's happening here. I mean it's not just chemistry people.

[A]

Well, I mean a lot of the stories in the Bible are, I mean some of them, you can only imagine they came up with them with psychedelic drugs. Like they seem very like if you ever experienced psychedelics, I mean it is very similar to a lot of the stories in the Bible and some of these ancient religious stories you hear. And there's, that's why I believe some people speculate that the, the birth of Christianity came out of psychedelic experiences.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is how people started writing these stories and, and developing ancient myths and those evolved into, you know, the, the Old Testament, the New Testament and eventually through the, through time, the 2000 year game of telephone, that it's been played with the Bible and revising stuff and translating stuff that it's obviously evolved quite a bit.

[B]

Yeah, there's a bunch of theories. I've been to probably four or five seminars at Harvard and a lot of really smart people from all over the world are exploring how does this connect historically? The burning bush, was that a Casio wood, all those kind of things. I don't think there's a consensus on this. And Harvard, the scholars at Harvard, although they're very. I don't know if they're pro. I think they are pro psychedelic but they don't generally.

Accept the mushroom Jesus concept.

But I think what they do understand is that what you experience on psilocybin may be very much like what Ezekiel experienced in the middle of the desert from fasting for day after day. You know that the same sort of out of body dramatic encounters with another realm, another level I guess of reality. Yeah, it's very similar and I think that's something I take seriously. I think yeah, I can see why.

Psychedelics could cause a person to really encounter a different level.

[A]

Have you heard the theory that Jesus was. Was tripping on psychedelics when he was in the. The garden of Gethsemane at 4am with the naked boy? Remember that part of the Bible?

[B]

Well, let's.

[A]

What was going on there?

[B]

Okay. I mean do you mind if I correct you? Just the way the story goes is that Jesus is in the garden praying and sweating drops of blood. His vessels were actually giving out from the anguish that he was in.

Peter, James and John were often. He invited them to come along and said watch and pray, you know. And he went by himself to pray. They fell asleep. Finally.

He gets up and said let's go. And as they leave the garden that's when he's arrested the boy. All the disciples fled and they say they think was John who was the youngest. They. Someone grabbed his coat to try and stop him from fleeing and he fled naked. So I don't think there was any sexual stuff going on.

[A]

It was a. The Greek word was aone, which means a. Like a linen cloth. And if you actually.

The Greek translation of it was that it was a Greek cloth. I'm sorry a linen cloth scene don't. Wrapped around his private parts. And then when he ran away no one grabbed it, it just fell off and he. He ran away naked. And.

That'S the problem with this stuff is that everyone has their own interpretation of what the stuff meant. And the only way to really drill down into it is to understand the Greek, to translate the Greek. And people depending on what denomination of Christianity or.

Or Catholicism or even what was the. What religion was the other guy, Dan McClellan, he was a Mormon. They all have their own.

Dictionaries where word. They change the meaning of words so that can Change the meaning of what was happening in the Bible?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'm, there's.

I don't know, Hebrew or Greek. You know, I do use an interlinear every once in a while just to see what it says. But that's what's fascinating for me. I, I've gotten away from trying to figure out what everything means in the Bible. I, a general sense of what's happening. The Gospels are for me, the, the, the richest source of spiritual inspiration because Jesus's interactions are quite remarkable. I mean, I think meeting Jesus, you know, you're a woman pulling out water from a well and you encounter this guy who reads your soul to you and just tell, you know, tells you all your secret stuff.

The conversation, it wasn't just a parlor trick. He was trying to get something across to her and she got it. She actually got it. She ran into town, said, I met him, he's the Messiah. So the, the actual encounter, I would say that's very close to a psychedelic type experience where you encounter so much reality in one setting that it changes you forever. That, that how to change your mind. I think Jesus was the expert at it. He would, he would, he would usually use questions. He used way more questions than answers. And he drew people out and got them to change their mind. In fact, repent means change your mind. So I think that's the key to the whole thing is can I get in contact with that voice that will lead me into the, to the way that I need to change and give me the inspiration and source of power that I need? That's, you know, we're not.

Trying to get the perfect doctrine or the absolute right interpretation of everything. I've grown to appreciate.

The understanding of the spiritual realm from other traditions. The Jewish tradition is super rich. I've gotten a lot out of that. Rumi and the Muslim mystics.

Gandhi, many of the Hindus have very strong spiritual understandings. So I don't have to narrow it down. Whether.

You know.

Anyone encountered the Monkey God or. I don't know, I know what they're trying to teach. That's what I, that's what I think. I know what they're trying to teach. And that is what helps me go forward with a sense that I'm not doing this all on my own. There's a, there's an energy and an intelligence that I can interact with that will gently. He's not going to take over my life and just. I'm on autopilot from now on.

[A]

Yeah, so, so what you're saying is like understanding what the, the people who, like the first people who wrote down the Greek that was translated into the Bible. That's not as important to you as the value that the stories give to your life. And like the, like the stories, your belief in the, in the stories, it makes you, you believe a better person.

[B]

Right. And that's, you know, also there's a lot of stories, particularly from the Old Testament, even some in the New Testament that are really hard to take. I mean they're just very violent stories and you just wonder what is this all about?

[A]

But yeah, and a lot of stories that were taken out of the Bible too that are.

[B]

Oh yeah, sure. I mean the Bible doesn't even self define. I mean it's, that was just a committee meeting. They came up with what's going to be in the book and what ain't. But so.

I think that when you read about say the first 10 or 11 chapters of the Bible before Abraham, you know, the garden, Adam and Eve, Noah.

The Flood, all that is really in the language of myth when you read it. If you were just, you never heard of the Bible or God or anything and you checked into a hotel, picked up the Gideon's Bible and started reading it in Genesis you go, oh, this is an ancient myth. It's what it is. You can just tell, you know, not a science book, it's not a history book. They're trying to make sense. How do we explain the fact that we're so, you know, everything is good and beautiful and yet we also shy away from truth. We, you know, do things that we shouldn't. We want to hide ourselves from God because, you know, we're now conscious of our nakedness. All of that is an attempt from ancient civilizations to understand why are things the way they are. Then from chapter 12 on you have the accounts of Abraham and this people.

[A]

Scoot this way bit.

[B]

Oh, sorry, I'm a leaner.

[A]

You keep drawn to that side.

[B]

Yeah.

That.

Somehow are willing to engage with this voice, with this God, this, this presence in a way that's very unlike the other cultures around them. And they, and it's a one God thing, you know, it's, it's not. Yeah, you know, it's. But they still have a lot of attitudes like, you know, the sacrificial systems and stuff that's all imported from other religious traditions, the Mesopotamians, all that. A lot of the myth languages is right out of the Babylonian text. So I don't have a problem with that because I think over time what happens once this People says, you know what? We're going to try and follow this God, you know, I am that. I am the guy that's the voice that speaks out of the burning bush. We want to follow him. And once they enter into this relationship, they're still, you know, Bronze Age shepherds and Bedouins and, you know, so on and so forth. Great poets, great. You know, a lot of cool stuff going on in their. In their civilization, but they're still working through stuff. And so they don't get it all right? You know, and if they say, well, God said, go and kill every man, woman, child and even the donkeys, just get rid of them all.

Yeah, but I don't think so. I mean, I just don't think that you got that right. Something made you want to do that. But I don't think you'd identify that with the I am that spoke to Moses and that goes along. Then you have the history of the kings and all the corruption and everything in Israel. Then you have the judgments that come on Israel carried into Babylon and all that. The prophets. The prophets bring in a whole new understanding. They bring God's word in a different way. And they pretty much say, forget the sacrifices, I don't need this. You know, I want you to love one another. I want you to take care of the hungry. You know, I want you. So there's a progression in terms of their understanding and back and forth. It's not one straight line. And then eventually Jesus shows up. And as in the tradition of the prophets, he comes with a new understanding, a fruit, some new, not everything new. He's, you know, said, you heard Moses say this. Well, I'm going to tell you something even heavier. You know, this is what I say. And that to me is. It's in flux. I don't have. It's not a rule book. I'm not gonna, you know, decide how long my hair is because it says so in First Thessalonians. You know, it's. It's. That's just not either here nor there.

[A]

Right?

[B]

But.

That it's.

[A]

Did you ever question any of this stuff? Did you ever question the Bible or question Christianity or your religious beliefs during the process of escaping the cult?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can't help but wonder, what else did I get wrong? You know, if I'm wrong about all this stuff, how can I be so sure that I'm right about Jesus?

[A]

Like, maybe I'll wash my hands of all of this. Maybe I'll become a savior.

[B]

A lot of people do And I, I, I have no problem with anybody who feels like they should do that. It's right. I, I don't think God's wringing his hands, you know, you don't like me anymore. You know, he's, he's just sure. He loves us all regardless. And it's not a he. I just, you know, I don't. The pronouns for God is a whole nother, but.

[A]

They, them.

[B]

Yeah, they, them. That's. My lesbian daughter says I should use that.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Getting used to that's amazing.

[A]

Anyway, so no. So you didn't question it. You kept you.

[B]

I question it in kind of like I should. It's. If I'm being responsible, I at least want to challenge my own belief systems. I should question those beliefs. Why do I believe that? Is that, does that really make sense? Is there another explanation? Could it, could it have been, I don't know, some other thing that, that I interpret as being the voice of God? I think you'd be a fool not to. You have to be willing to question that. I mean.

But in the end, I would always come to a place where I have a piece that I don't understand at all. But this much I know, you know, I do have a sense that this voice inside me is real and has seen me through some really tough, you know, but. And it tells me good stuff. Tells me to love, you know.

[A]

Oh, stuck in your mic. Sorry.

[B]

Oh, am I, what am I doing?

[A]

You're, you're going.

[B]

Yeah. This is weird.

[A]

So at what point did you meet with Rebecca Lamov, the, the mind control expert?

[B]

There was an International Cultic Studies association was doing a meeting in Santa Fe on the topic of child abuse in cultic groups. So I'd been hanging out with those guys for a while. I wanted to go, but I didn't want to go without a representative from the second generation. So a girl that, that had been very active in ex member circles, I invited her to come along and we gave an address at the, you know.

Workshop or something.

She would tell her story, which was insane. Totally insane. She was very close to Berg. Oh, really lived with him for a while and you know, anyway, hard to take. She's amazingly healthy, really, mentally.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I don't know how she did it, but she's in good shape. But she shared her story and then I shared my story of what it was like. How could this have possibly happened on our watch? You know, we're not, you know, sadists.

How did this happen? So that was the Kind of look at it. There was other groups there as well that had. One of them had extreme physical punishment. Tony Lamo. Did you ever hear his.

[A]

That rings a bell.

[B]

He died a few years ago, but he had a really bad one in Arkansas. A group really bad. And they were physical beatings that I just couldn't even bear when they describe. So you know the.

We found that organization very helpful just simply because a whole bunch of different opinions. You know, they're not all believers by any stretch. Most of them are PhDs and who became PhDs to figure out what the hell happened to me. And they started studying and never stopped.

But anyway, so Rebecca was there I think because of her interest in brainwashing and how this topic is of key importance to the ex cult community or just society when it relates to cults to understand it. And I thought Rebecca did a. Well, anyway, at the meeting I was just. Hey, where are you from? Oh, Harvard. Oh really? You know, I live in Massachusetts too. We had lunch together and I told her my whole story and then I gave her my book and she read it, sent me a really nice email and then the pandemic hit and you know, we just lost touch. We just didn't keep in touch until her book came out and then, then she was doing a. The Joe Rogan Show. Did you happen to watch her on that at all?

[A]

I did, yeah.

[B]

In the. There's a certain point in the story where she tells my story. Right. In this one she gave me three wives, which my kids gave me a real hard time. Where's the other one, dad? But.

What I think appealed to her was a try. My story tries to understand what it is that could, could cause you to do this, but not only do it and, and in fear of doing something hurtful and harmful, but thinking you're right. Thinking you're actually right. And it's, it's, it's Ouch. You know, it's. I, I like the fact that she puts it in historical context. There was a time when she mentions in her book that, you know, the scholarly community just poo pooed brainwashing and just thought it was. No, no, that's just people making an excuse for doing really dumb. You know, she said I don't think so. And I think she really got it, you know, getting into the Korean War veterans and all of that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In a very excellent way of unpacking it. Not extreme in one way or the other. Just we're all, we're all confusing mess. You know, I think we're all brainwashed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Somewhere on the spectrum, you know, it's a continuum.

[A]

Yeah. I think a great example of that is American politics.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

[A]

What was it like unbrainwashing yourself?

[B]

Well, we got. We were living in Florida, which was for us, we were spinning our wheels. And for me, it was one long heat rash. But eventually some good friends of ours got kicked out of the group up in New Hampshire, in Rhode Island. And we were so close and we were so lonely. We said, well, let's. I'll. We'll come up and visit you guys. And we went up and four days later, I'd rented a house in Rhode island, so. And we still hung out with a lot of folks from the group or who had, you know, some connection to it. Eventually.

Shoot. I lost my thought.

[A]

On brainwashing yourself.

[B]

Oh, yeah. So one of our friends had called a Christian counseling center to ask for help with their marriage. They're married in the group, have a bunch of kids and, you know, all that. And when they just explained their situation to the counselor, they said, you know, we don't really handle anything like that. That's way out of our. Our portfolio. But we know a guy, and that was Bob. Pardon? Who was this minister who had started this organization, which was originally. He was. He and some other pastors were confronting the fact that they had a number of their congregation dropping out and joining the Jehovah Witnesses or the Mormons or some small outfit, you know, kind of goofy, crazy outfits.

And, you know, we just got to teach our people the Bible so that they can recognize it when something's not coming from the same voice.

But what happened is once they got educated into the way the groups worked, they started attracting ex members, you know, so because they understood somebody from the 12 tribes, which is another kind of very still going organization.

[A]

12 tribes of Israel.

[B]

Yeah. I think they're called the messianic communities, but they're known as 12 tribes, you know, vernacular. And they say, bob, you get this. So, well.

We want to leave. We don't know what to do. We don't. You know, I can't remember how to open a checking account. My kids, you know, don't know. You know, what do we do? How do we get started? And that's how he ended up starting this ministry that was just trying to help people transition. There was so many things that they began to organize into a bit of a course you can kind of work your way through. So we got there, we couldn't move in because we had all these kids. But we would take the classes and, you know, the stuff like the experiment, the. Oh, crap, what's the name of that famous. The Prison Experiment and Brainwashing MK Ultra. No, it was. I don't know, it was Harvard. I'm not sure where it was, but it was completely unethical and they can't do it anymore.

[A]

When were they doing it?

[B]

50S. And it was. The idea was how quickly a person.

[A]

Stanford Prison Experiment.

[B]

Stanford Prison Experiment. Okay. And they very quickly.

Turned into, you know, sadistic jailers who just open. You know, there's students one day and 48 hours later they're doing all this stuff. They can't even believe it, how quickly it happened. They had to call the experiment off because people were going off the deep end.

[A]

So it was a controversial and famous psychology experiment conducted in 71 by Philip Zimbardo. The goal of the experiment was aimed to determine whether the brutal behavior often seen in prisons was due to the inherent personalities of the guards and the prisoners or bad apples. Healthy, psychologically stable male college students were randomly assigned to be either guards or prisoners. Oh, yes, this is ringing a bell. And a simulated prison in a basement of the university psychology building. The outcome of the experiment, planned for two weeks, was stopped after only six days because the participants quickly adopted their roles to an extreme degree. Guards became sadistic, abusive, using psychological warfare and humiliation, while prisoners became passive, distressed, and some experienced emotional breakdowns. Wow. Yeah.

[B]

And then another one with the electric shocks. I can't remember that one, but where they have a guy in a white coat tell you you have to turn the shock up. Turn the shock up and.

[A]

Oh, yes, yes, yes. I forget the name of that one.

[B]

But I, I remember, I remember talked.

[A]

About this a lot.

[B]

Yeah, they showed us all these things and kind of helped us unpack. Okay. This is how it works. This is how our brains structure is designed to work.

[A]

And the shocking one was the. Where they were shocking somebody was interesting because there was nobody there. They were just played screams as if they were shocking somebody.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So they were seeing how, how they could get or how far they could push the person that was turning the dial to follow the orders before their conscious kicked in and said, no, I'm not going to do this anymore. And a lot of them just kept doing it until, like, the scream stopped and they were like, oh, my God, did I kill him?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

The human mind is very vulnerable. Very, very manipulatable.

[B]

There's a book, Fragile. Are you familiar with Robert Chini? He wrote a book called Influence.

Really interesting Guy. But the. The reason I bring him up. And it's all about how. It's. It's about how you can change, influence someone's thinking, you know, through these different techniques. And Bob, the. The cult educator was. Gave me the book to read in order to understand the subtle manipulation that happens along the way, cult or no cult.

Then I got into sales, and the sales organization gave me Cialdini's book to read as how to manipulate the sale. So it was. It's just depends on where you're coming from, what. The way you take that information. And I do. It's.

[A]

It's all the fundamentals are still there.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

It's amazing how. How similar so many cults are. You know, from Children of God to.

Jonestown to Scientology, Heaven's Gate, there's so. So many, like, fundamental similarities between all of them.

[B]

This. It's interesting because it has become, you know, in the last five years or so, it just seems like every. They should have a special channel with nothing but cult shows on because there's.

[A]

So many of them people are fascinated by.

[B]

Yeah. Fascinating. The. The part that worries me a little bit is that if people only focus on the sensational, and they are sensational. You know, the guy with the. The branding iron and all that, I mean, it's just.

[A]

Oh, yeah, what was that one called again?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, that was a more recent one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that guy's in prison.

[B]

Yeah, I think so too. But if you just get freaked out by how. How bizarre the behaviors can be, then you just think. People who get involved with cults are just somehow. Their brain does not work. Right. It just. They can't think. I think people tend to look at it that way, like how that.

[A]

That's the perception.

[B]

Yeah, perception. Yeah.

[A]

Right, right, right. Okay.

[B]

So. But in. In fact, nobody ever joins a cult. You know, I was joining a. An organization to evangelize the world, you know, later on. Yeah, I was in a cult. But how that happened was a long transitional period for I. It's sometimes hard to watch those things if people haven't processed their experience. They can be so full of shame. I almost want to cry as they tell their story about what they did while they're in a group. And I can see that they're still carrying a tremendous amount of pain from it. I don't think you'll ever be pain free, but you don't have to walk around in complete shame all the time. If you can work through. This is what happened. This is where I Screwed up. This is where I got suckered. You know, I bit the apple or whatever, you know, and. And. But I. It wasn't purely evil intentions. I didn't set out to do wrong, but I did do wrong. I can't get away from that, but I can forgive myself because I can understand why it happened. The underlying motives that I actually had was good. I wanted to serve God. The.

I hope that people who have those experiences can get to a place where they get some help working through what happened, how the brain works, and come to a place where you go, yeah, given the right set of circumstances, pretty much anybody could end up in a situation that is cultic or manipulative or, you know, in. I mean, the military. You know, think of all the things that people do in the military. Oh, yeah, they didn't, you know, join the army to burn villagers in Vietnam, but they did, you know, so what happened? They got psychologically programmed to. To a place where they were willing to do that, you know, but you can't, you know, and guys do have a hard time. They can't come back from that. They have a hard time being able to forgive themselves for what happened if they can unpack it and understand.

[A]

It's also so similar, too, if you think about. Especially if you want to go back to the Iraq war and that war in Afghanistan. The type of people that signed up to do that, they were young kids that were not.

Were not like, growing up saying, I want to grow up and I want to go into combat and I want to fight for America and I want to go to war. Like, this was not something that was, like, in their DNA. It wasn't a calling that they had. Right. These people were these kids. And I've talked to a lot of them, these combat veterans, they were really young. They didn't know what direction they wanted to go in life. They maybe had a few options on the table. Maybe I'll go to college, maybe I'll try to get a job doing this, learn a trade or whatever. Or maybe I could go sign up for the military and I can go off to war. And for one reason or another, they picked war. And their brains were not built for that. They're. They. They were not psychologically ready to witness that kind of stuff and be in combat, pulling the trigger, killing people, killing kids, and they come back and there's nothing left for them.

[B]

And they're.

[A]

They're broken when they get back here.

[B]

I actually think that. That it's interesting because Bob, the fellow at Meadow Haven, he Had suggested early on I hadn't knew very little about trauma, was like, maybe 1994, 95.

And I was kind of. Once I got a little cult education in me, then I realized what kind of challenges my kids were up against, you know, and I was getting a little freaked out. Like, trauma changes your brain. I mean, these kids grew up. I mean, even if you left the sex stuff out, it was still a traumatic situation. People had way too much power over their lives. And it was, you know, abusive. There's no question about it.

[A]

So what could be more abusive than sexual abuse? I mean, I don't know.

[B]

No, it's probably not. Sex gets, you know, right into the. The core of our being.

[A]

Right, exactly.

[B]

And that especially for a kid who has no mental equipment to deal with that. Right.

But I. My. My point is just that if. If soldiers coming back from. You know, I'm not sure if it was in Rebecca's book where they talk about moral injury, where you. You're. You're. It's not that you just experienced horrible stuff. Your friends getting blown up and this and that. It's that you pulled the trigger, that you did something that you knew deep down on some level, you know, you. You killed a young boy. Yeah, exactly. And it's. It's.

I think, a piece of the. He gave me a book to read. Trauma and Healing by Judith Herman. It was one of the earliest books written on trauma. And I was surprised to find out it was only 1980. They came up with the term trauma related to Vietnam vets.

It was their rap sessions where they started to unpack what had happened to them. And they began to realize this is. They came up with the term trauma for it. At the same time, women's. The women's liberation movement was coming up with all the stories of women who had been subject to all kinds of abuse, and they were traumatized. And then they started to put two and two together and realized this is a kind of a constant in human history and human experience, that when you get traumatized.

You have to somehow go back and revisit how this happened, confess to whatever weakness you might have had in the situation, but also absolve yourself that, look, something happened to you, man. You didn't dream this up. You know, this is. This is, you know.

Not your fault. It's you. You can't not take any responsibility for it. It's good that you take responsibility for it. Nobody should walk away after war without some issues. But you. After. You have to get to a place where you can Let go. You can get that trauma to a healed place. That's. I hope.

That that message gets out more and more. The, the psychological.

Research on trauma is just flooding the. The, the world today.

[A]

What is the best way to do it? What is the best way to face it well. And to work through it, in my opinion.

[B]

Well, from a cultic point of view, it was this educational piece of how did this, these small decisions along the way, which in, in their own. This choice wasn't all that bad. This choice wasn't all that bad. This choice. But all of a sudden, holy shit, you know, where are we? You know, and that's, I think, pretty much what happens to soldiers too. They get caught up in this weird world. I just visited an old friend. He. He went to Vietnam when he was 16. Lied about his age.

[A]

Wow. Because he wanted to go.

[B]

He wanted to go. He came home in, you know, rough shape, full, full disability. You know, it's, it. He still struggles with it. You know, it still, still.

Will come to him. Even though he's done a lot of work to try and process it all, he still carries it. You know, when he talks about it, you can see it in his face. It's real and it's, it's still a burden for him. Thank God he's learned how to, how to live beyond that. But yeah, I mean, I, I hope, you know, that's, that's why I got involved with Meadowhaven for so long was because I thought it did a good job of trying to give people a chance to unpack it rather than just shove it down and forget about it. And, you know, it's going to pop up somewhere at an unfortunate moment.

[A]

Can you, can you spot this kind of stuff like, like in other parts of society, like cultish behaviors bubbling up and, and you, and you in the.

[B]

Religious world, it's, you know, becoming more and more widely well known how much abuse goes on in churches. Not just sexual abuse, historically. Yeah. The manipulation to get people to do all kinds of crazy stuff. Right.

[A]

I mean, there's nothing, it's crazy that there's nothing else that's more synonymous with child abuse than the Catholic Church.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And cults that use that stuff.

[B]

And now it's coming out. It's not just the Catholics. It's pretty much every doggone denomination has. It has a closet full. But it is something that, especially now because people. Are you familiar with the term deconstruction in the, in the evangelical world?

[A]

No.

[B]

Well, you know, there's. I don't know, the statistics But a pretty large percentage of our society over the last 20, 30 years was evangelical. You know, witness our political situation. But the.

[A]

A large port. Say that again.

[B]

You know, American society. I. I think maybe 20 or 30% are Catholic. 20 or 30% are mainstream Protestants. 20 or 30% are. Are charismatic and evangelical and, you know, fundamentalist.

[A]

I wonder what percent of them of the United States is. Is Christian or catholic. Let's look that up.

[B]

Yeah. Christian is a. Is a tricky word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's supposed to mean a follower of Jesus, but I don't think it does anymore.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because it's become something else. It's become a. A political movement.

[A]

62 to 69 of U. S. Adults identify as Christian.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You think it's become becoming political?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you can't read the sermon on the mountain, say this goes along with. I don't know if I should get political on a podcast, but, you know.

[A]

Podcasts are born to be made to be political. There's no, there's no, there's no boundaries.

[B]

It's. It's.

Unrecognizable. You know, you read the words of Jesus and then you see what's happening in Chicago or in, you know, North Carolina, and it's just crazy. It's just. This is absolutely not what Jesus said. Yeah, you're supposed to love the stranger. You're supposed to help the stranger. You're not supposed to beat him up, throw him in the back of a van. But, you know, they're seeing.

[A]

What do you make of the. The push.

[B]

To.

[A]

To make the government more Christian? I think. Yeah, I think Trump appointed a Christian. What was the, what was the, the title of that woman? She was like. She was like the, the head of Christian white. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Tampa girl.

[A]

Some of those. Yeah. Some of the videos of that lady are wild.

[B]

Yeah, it's a little strange.

[A]

And so, like, what do you make of the, of the push to. To merge that, that televangelism with. With politics?

[B]

Well, that would be a really good. And an interesting podcast that. What happened, you know, interestingly, was the Jesus movement gave a real jolt of energy to the, to the flagging evangelical church. So a whole lot of young people came into the church with a lot of enthusiasm and zeal and eventually got into Bible college, became pastors and whatnot.

And it was just kind of religious. It wasn't. It wasn't a political movement. And then Jerry Falwell realized that the political potential that. That it would wield. So they started with the abortion issue. There's a guy named Frankie Schaefer. I don't know if you ever heard of him. His father, Francis Schaefer was a well known. He lived in Switzerland. He's American scholar of religion and wrote some really important books in theology. His son kind of grew up kind of like Mike gets, you know, somewhat neglected because daddy was off serving the Lord and he ended up getting polio. He didn't learn to read until he was about 13.

And. But his dad gave him the mission to go and teach the American church the importance of the pro life movement. And so he came over here and networked with all these.

Denominational leaders and so on and got them really sold. I mean, Billy Graham never talked about abortion. It wasn't even an issue. I mean, it was just not a thing. All of a sudden in 1980, 1985, it's the only thing the, the Bible's supposed to be about. Jesus never even used the word, you know. Right. So it just became. And then the gay thing. And they just will, will take these issues and politicize them. I suppose they have some moral principle to them. I don't agree with it, but it's, it's in their mind a moral principle. But it's a tremendous fundraising tool and they organize. And because you have the, you have the microphone every Sunday morning, you got pretty, pretty strong control over the thought lives of your. And it's all just like with us. It's in the name of God who's gonna, who's gonna say no if they think God wants them to.

You know, hate gays or whatever. It's, it's, it's.

It'S the same dynamic. It just a matter. If you're a communal group, it gets real bizarre real fast. If you're not a communal group, it takes a while. But over a decade, decade and a half, America was changed by this whole evangelical movement. Given life by the Jesus movement. No political message there at all. And then from 1980 on or so, the Moral Majority and then into, and Frankie Shaver details exactly how they did it and managed to win over the evangelical world to this political worldview.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So it's, it is interesting and it's, you know, it's affecting our lives right now. I don't know if you're familiar with the Seven Mountains, that whole thing.

[A]

What's that?

[B]

It's a movement, the, the National Apostolic Reformation or something. The New Apostolic Reformation. Nar. They have this teaching that there's seven mountains that are.

Places of influence in society, politics, entertainment. I don't know. I can't even think of all of them. They are, but they're all parts of society, business.

And their idea is that we, God wants us to be on the top of all these seven mountains so we can change society in all its dimensions. So that's why they work so hard to capture.

Positions in other parts of the, of the society that had nothing to do with religion.

[A]

Who, who, who, who is trying to capture the.

[B]

Well, what's the name of that church? There's a big church, Bethel, Bethel Church out in, in California, with.

Kind of the, the launch pad for this whole seven Mountains movement. And they are committed to it. They don't make any bones, they don't hide it. It'll be published in Charisma magazine. You know, they, they teach it as, this is what we should do. Whereas Jesus said, no, my kingdom is not of this world. I'm not trying to take over Rome. I don't want any part of Rome. You know, we've got our own kingdom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So let's, let's do, do our kingdom stuff, which is love, which is care for the poor, which is.

[A]

Well, also, there's been, I don't know if you've, if you've read about this, but there's been this huge push over the last few years to transform Silicon Valley into like a religious Christian hub.

[B]

I've heard that.

[A]

And Peter Teal is one of the big people behind that. He's doing these, these big conferences in Silicon Valley. There's even a big church that got started there where Silicon Valley historically has been like an atheist part, an atheist hub. All the tech people, they're not religious, they're not godly, and, and that's been completely transformed.

[B]

You think psychedelics might add something to do with that too?

[A]

I don't know. No, no, I don't think so. I, I don't think so. It's funny though, that that's also like the psychedelic hub of the world.

[B]

I wonder if there was some America.

[A]

But no, Peter Thiel is like, onto this jihad to.

To paint Christianity onto everything Silicon Valley is doing. And he's holding these seminars all about the Antichrist, and he thinks that AI is gonna, or technology. And he's a guy who's invested in lots of AI and tech companies and companies like Palantir, which is a, a surveillance company that sells surveillance software to the CIA and creates autonomous weapon systems for the sell to other countries to, you know, essentially just kill people.

[B]

Yeah, it's a pretty weird combination and.

[A]

Yeah, right. And oh, this is a Vanity Fair article.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Christianity was borderline illegal in Silicon Valley, and now it's the new religion.

[B]

And there is this whole.

[A]

It's odd. It's very odd. And I. I've been. I've been racking my brain trying to think like, what is this. Is this something that this guy really believes is the right thing? Is. Is something. Does he really believe this?

[B]

I don't know. Or.

[A]

Or does he have a motive behind this? You know, is there some sort of motive that. Does he think that America would be stronger if our. If American society would be stronger if everyone subscribed to Christianity? If we had a one binding thing where we were. We were all Christians and we were.

[B]

All.

[A]

People of the Lord, you know, similar to how other countries, if you look at other, like, Muslim countries, they're all. They're. They're so devout to their religion that they're willing to strap a bomb to their chest.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[A]

And we're not like that. We're more divided.

[B]

We're.

[A]

We're a little bit more segregated, a little bit more diverse.

[B]

Yeah. But I think there is. There is a push. It's weird because it is two completely different Jesuses that are. That are. Well, I was starting to talk about deconstruction, because what happened with the evangelical movement is the kids who were raised in the 80s and 90s in these strict evangelical environments, homeschooled, stuff like that, they. And purity culture, all of, you know, no dating, all that kind of thing.

They're now, you know, they get into their 20s and go, I don't think I really agree with this anymore. And they start. But they still have a spiritual life. They still have a prayer life. And they. So they start to take it apart. They deconstruct it. What is and what isn't connected to this Jesus, and that is having a big movement on the other end. You got these guys going total in one direction, you know, the God of war. And the other ones are kind of like, wait, we have to be able to understand Jesus's ethic in terms of our own social experience. So what? Jesus didn't talk about homosexuality. He didn't talk about. It wasn't an issue. You can't go to the verses. And a few people do, but they're incorrect. But nonetheless, people are beginning to go. It's just not. I can't picture Jesus saying, you know, mocking people for having a different sexual preference. You know, it just not. It doesn't make sense yet. This other Jesus. Yeah, let's just, you know.

Segregate them off from. From society.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's two. It's a war, you know, it's.

[A]

Yeah. You know, it's a. It's just people. It's. It's groups, it's groupthink and it's people in society with lots of power who want to use things like this, like. Like religion or Christianity to achieve. Achieve whatever their goals are. It seems like there's people that just want to use it to their advantage however they can. And that's not just with religion. That's what other. That's even with psychedelics. Psychedelic drugs.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of profit motive there.

[A]

And, and that, and that. That religious professional study with John Johns Hopkins we were talking about earlier. I forget who it was, but there was somebody in that study who spoke about how they thought that if they could.

Depending on the outcome of that study, determine that maybe introducing psychedelics to people who are believers in this stuff already, maybe that could strengthen their belief or maybe that could.

That could strengthen Christian values in the country and create some sort of a renaissance in America. Right. Like if you were able to give the church fathers legal access to psychedelic drugs to where they could administer that to the people that go to the church, imagine how much more devout they would be to their religion.

[B]

Yeah. I have a hard time picturing psychedelics ever getting integrated to that level in the church, but I think it will be something that is practiced.

Among members of the church who connect on a certain wavelength and go, you know, I don't know. You ever heard of Houston Smith? He's. He wrote the Religions of Man. It was the largest selling. I think it still is the largest selling textbook on comparative religion. And he himself was a child of a missionary out in China. But in his study of the world religions, he also practices the. The five daily prayers of Islam. He fasts during Ramadan. He's passed away now. This is a while back, but. And he got involved with psychedelics with Timothy Leary in Harvard.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Tripped his first trip on January 1st, 1960. What a way to kick off the 60s.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So here's a very devout man had, you know, dedicated his life since six months in a Zen monastery. And he said it was the first time that he really felt that he had experienced God. And he. It became a very well covered. It's. I think it's the most reprinted article. Wow. In all the literature.

[A]

What was his name again?

[B]

Houston. It's. It's not like Houston in the city. It's H U S T O N Smith and great guy, a great writes, fantastic stuff and a lovely man too. He was interviewed by Bill Moyer a lot on pbs.

But.

His, his takeaway was like, once you get the message, hang up the phone, you don't have to keep tripping. If you experience that breakthrough into a spiritual reality, try to find ways to support that through spiritual disciplines. Maybe you know, a certain prayer or meditation practice or you know, studying scripture or you know, talking to other religions for insights or poetry. I mean, all kinds of ways you can nurture it aside from psychedelics because after a while it's already done its job, you know, unless you're treating, you.

[A]

Know, your depression, it's not, it's not. People like to, to broad brush psychedelics and other drugs altogether. They say it's drugs, right? But it's not, it's not like something that you're chasing. It's like often people that you talk to that have experienced psychedelics, they, they are recounting an experience they had years ago. Yeah, right, right. And it's still very palpable and it's still like very vivid in their mind, something they experienced a long time ago. It's not like you have to keep going back and chasing the dragon like you have to do with other drugs.

[B]

I would because, you know, I felt like psychedelics had played a role in getting me to the point where I opened my heart to God.

After been out since 91, that's 45 years, 44 years, something like that. I began to, you know, the stuff that happened to us in our family, I struggled with it, with.

I'm not, not diagnosable depression, but I was, you know, I was, I was flat, let's put it that way. I wasn't. My spiritual life just wasn't joyful and I just was lacking some sense of aliveness. And when I started reading all the how to change your mind and a lot of the stuff that Legari publishes online, then I started going to Harvard conferences. I thought maybe I should try this. Maybe it would just jolt me out of this kind of not very exciting spiritual place I'm at.

And I tried. I was also interested because I got hooked on cigars and it was getting pretty annoying, expensive and bad for my health. So I thought it's also very good at that. Maybe I can kill two birds with one stone. I did a retreat in Mexico.

[A]

And what did you do? Dmt?

[B]

No, no. Ayahuasca scares the hell out of me. Just because, I don't know, vomiting and, yeah, diarrhea is just not my cup of tea.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But I blame you. But.

I, you know, had the visuals and all that kind of thing, but I didn't. I didn't experience the kind of experience I hoped for. I did quit smoking cigars, but the. And I realized afterwards that I did a few things wrong. You got to be more careful in how you prepare for a journey, you know, if you want to take it seriously and, you know, not just go to a Grateful Dead concert. It was. I think I was.

I was leaning on the arm of the flesh. I was leaning. Looking to something. I already know. God, you know, I should be able to communicate with God without needing a substance. Not that it's a sin or anything. It's just like, yeah, if you want to, go ahead, but, you know, I'm not. You don't really need it. But I think that was the message that I got was, you already know how to talk to me, you know how to listen to me, and it's really not necessary. I'm not going to blame you, but I'm not going to give you the trip of your lifetime either, so.

But I still respect it. I still, you know, I do think it's an important change that's going to come over the next few years, that as psychedelics for therapy get out into society, people are going to have these experiences. And the clergy has got to have some language to help people understand it and unpack these. These encounters and integrate them into your regular life.

[A]

So you wrote. You wrote your book in 2011, right. And you never promoted it or anything?

[B]

Not much. I mean, you know, I did Nixa conferences and things like that. But. But it was. It's.

I get a lot of good feedback from people who do read it. It's. They find it very helpful.

[A]

And how do people find it?

[B]

Usually just some discussion or another, you know.

[A]

Is this the first audio interview you've ever done?

[B]

I think recorded. I used to do a number of talks with ICSA about, you know, cults and spirituality. But, yeah, I kind of backed off from. From everything in terms of the cult. You know, it was just like, old. Old news.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it seemed to be coming back up in my life. I was starting to tell you about the Joe Rogan thing, so I guess it was May or June. I got a WhatsApp from my son in New Zealand. I said, dad, I'm listening to Joe Rogan and they're talking about you. And I thought they're probably just. Somebody's talking about the group or something like that. I mean, how would Joe Rogan know anything about, you know, and then he sent me a link and sure enough, he was. And, and then I got in touch with Rebecca and, you know, it started, started to open a door that I thought was kind of like past, you know, to discuss this. The topic that we were discussing today, maybe the fact that I'm in a different place, you know, I'm in a different place in life. My, you know, I'm 75, so I'm starting to think more about what's, what's next, what comes after this, what do I need to get done before, before I say goodnight?

And it seems like it popped back up. So I feel like there's something I have to do to, to at least share what little piece of the, the puzzle that I've experienced. Yeah. And maybe it'll help somebody else. I do, I want to write. I actually got way too many notes on Update because my thinking's changed since the book was printed on some things. Basically, it's still the same, but I would, I would word things differently now. I think I'd have a lot more.

Insight into because it's, it's a pretty Christian approach that I take, you know, in the book. And I now think that's not always helpful because, you know, you say Christian, you could be talking about Peter Thiel. You know, people just don't know what you're talking about anymore. Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I, I think I would try to unpack things in a more everyday language and that everyone can relate to because, you know, maybe you work for a boss who was just Simon Legree. You know, I mean, you have experiences like this in life and if you can kind of begin to relate your own personal experiences with manipulation or getting drafted or, or whatever your personal experience was, or a bad marriage, you know, that kind of thing. It's, it's the same basic dynamic, just not quite as dramatic and sensational as a cult might be. Right. But, you know, that, that I, I, I hope, I hope that we can get past.

People. I do this. Other people do it to me and I know it. You know, they're sizing me up and saying, oh, you're a, you're this kind of Christian. You're that kind of Christian. You're this kind of ex hippie or, you know, they always kind of try.

[A]

To peg you in a box.

[B]

Yeah. Instead of get to know me. And then you'll know what, you know, not just what image leaps into your mind and you can categorize it and write it off. Oh, I don't believe in Christianity. Well, yeah, but you know, you believe in humans because there's a lot of humans caught up in this thing. You know, at least we can talk as humans. You know, I. I used to get very nervous at the thought of somebody not believing in God. How could you go through life and not believe in God? I personally think every. Everyone believes in something. I call it the voice. You know, it's. It's a presence that you encounter not all day, every day, but sometimes some sunset, some date with your wife, some. Some special birth, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or death where you know that presence is, is felt and known.

My mother in law just passed away. She was 100 years old. We had a. A wingding of a party in June. All the kids, she's out in California and everybody flew out there to wish her happy birthday. And she had dementia. It was. You know, her. Her mind was slipping. She couldn't. Her short term memory was very brief. But she was such a godly woman her whole life and just has exudes it. She doesn't use a lot of religious language. She doesn't, you know, just. It's just love, you know, that just comes through her so that one of my sons, after she passed, he said this is the Christ we need, you know. And I think that's. That's what we need. Stuff that's real, you know, it's not all theoretical and abstract. It's. It's lived, you know. I think that's what incarnation means. It's. It's supposed to be in the flesh, you know, supposed to be real. Not every, you know, fairy type thing.

[A]

Well, that's very powerful man. Thank you for doing this. This has been.

[B]

We're done.

[A]

This has been incredible. Yeah, we just did three hours.

[B]

Holy smokes. What time? It's.

[A]

It's 4:45.

[B]

Okay. I got. I got time. Yeah.

[A]

Does your flight leave tonight?

[B]

It leaves tonight. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think I need to be there by 7.

[A]

Tell people where they can find your book and all that stuff. Get a hold of you.

[B]

Can I get my book? I'll just show this.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, go grab it. Only available in paperback. Is that right? Do you have. Do you have Kindle? Okay, fantastic. Oh, there it is right there. Something somebody stole.

[B]

Yeah, that's it. So.

[A]

Beautiful man.

[B]

But yeah, I think it's a good read. You might not people that are not that involved with Bible study. Like the first half better than the second half because of my story and the second half. I'm trying to make sense of my story so there's a little more spiritual and scriptural.

Exploration, although it gets back into our life, too. So. Yeah, I mean, I think if anybody's been through an experience like this or has a family member who has, it's. It's helpful. I tried to digest a lot of other material from other writers and scholars and make it simple for a layman so it can help you cover the. The issues involved as you're trying to work through your. Your own personal apocalypse.

[A]

It's amazing, man. Super powerful.

[B]

We'll.

[A]

We'll link all that stuff below so people can find it and get a hold of you if they need to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's all, folks.

[B]

Yeah. All right.

[A]

Good night, everybody.