Danny Jones Podcast #356 – Brain Scientist: God, Religion, Consciousness & What Happens When We Die | John Vervaeke

Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Danny Jones
Guest: John Vervaeke – Cognitive Scientist, Philosopher, University of Toronto Professor

Episode Overview

In this rich, far-reaching conversation, cognitive scientist and philosopher John Vervaeke joins Danny Jones for a deep-dive into humanity's timeless and most urgent questions: the meaning crisis, the nature of consciousness, religion and spirituality, mystical experience, artificial intelligence, and what it means to be truly alive. The discussion is both personal and conceptual, weaving together science, philosophy, and lived experience.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. John Vervaeke’s Personal Journey into Philosophy, Religion & Cognitive Science

• Early Background: Raised in a strict fundamentalist Christian environment, Vervaeke describes childhood trauma, particularly relating to the fear of the Rapture (00:55–03:00).
  • “The most afraid I've ever been in my life... I was convinced that the Rapture had occurred and I had been left behind...” — John Vervaeke (01:14)
• Discovery of Philosophy: Through reading science fiction and philosophy as a teen, he explored Buddhism, Hinduism, and alternative myths, leading to a “personal meaning crisis.”
• Encounter with Socratic Thought: In university, found inspiration in Socrates, searching for the transcendent via reason and virtue. Felt that academic philosophy lost touch with the "core question" of meaning.
• Embracing Eastern Philosophy: Practiced Tai Chi and meditation; saw a bridge between academic work and lived spiritual experience.
• Cognitive Science as a Bridge: Pursued cognitive science for its interdisciplinarity – merging philosophy, psychology, neuroscience, and AI, with a focus on wisdom and meaning.
• Online Teaching & Awakening from the Meaning Crisis: Detailed how his teachings, especially on mystical experience and meaning, resonated with students and led to a 50-hour YouTube series that went viral. (03:00–06:22)

2. Academia, Public Intellectuals & the Jordan Peterson Controversy

• Relationship with Peterson: Friends since ~2012. Discussed Peterson's infamous pronoun conflict and university fallout (06:22–09:41).
  • “He said, 'I want an open public debate on this. If you give my open public debate, I'll renegotiate with you about whether or not I'll use the pronouns.'” — John Vervaeke (08:16)
• Academic vs. Public Persona: Tension and suspicion between traditional academics and those with a public platform. Vervaeke strives to maintain a foot in both worlds (10:04–13:31).
  • “If I'm just over here, I could become a guru ... Over here, I can become that insular, academically incestuous person.” — John Vervaeke (13:31)

3. The Continuum of Cognition: From Fluency to Mystical Experience

• Cognitive Continuum Theory: Vervaeke outlines how cognition unfolds on a spectrum:
  • Fluency: The ease of processing information makes things feel true or beautiful (17:11–18:31).
  • Insight: A spike in fluency leads to the classic “aha!” moment.
  • Insight Cascade & Flow State: When insights build on each other, leading to flow—a highly adaptive state often described by athletes, artists, and performers (20:38–22:23).
    • “Flow is like an extended aha.” — John Vervaeke (22:25)
  • Mystical Experience: The highest state, where attention, orientation, and connectedness to reality reach a peak—characterized by ineffability, transformative self-transcendence, and a sense of contact with the “really real” (27:09–31:37).
    • “You get this ineffable sense of being deeply at one ... it will trigger what's called a transformative experience.” — John Vervaeke (29:22–30:38)

4. Flow, Intuition, and Adaptive Learning

• The Adaptive Power of Flow: Flow is evolutionarily tuned to train insight, cognitive flexibility, and intuition (37:40–43:47).
• Intuition as Pattern Recognition: Our brains are sophisticated at detecting real, complex patterns, but prone to picking up illusory ones—implicit vs. explicit learning explained (37:40–43:00).
  • “When we like it, we call it intuition; when we don’t like it, we call it prejudice or bias. It’s the same machine.” — John Vervaeke (44:04)
• Transferability of Skills: Practices like Tai Chi and “rope flow” can transfer flow and adaptability into other life domains (24:25–25:40; 44:37–45:38).

5. Memory, Reconstructive Processes, and AI

• Memory as Reconstructive, Not Reproductive: Our brains amalgamate, morph, and even invent details for adaptive purposes, not mere accuracy (47:21–50:16).
  • “Your memory is not about accuracy of the past. Your memory is trying to make you intelligently predictive of the future.” — John Vervaeke (48:38)
• AI’s Impact on Cognition: Warnings about convenience-oriented AI eroding human agency, memory, and rationality (51:20–58:35).
  • “We are slowly lobotomizing ourselves... AI is making people irrational by getting them to care only about the results...” — John Vervaeke (51:20–55:03)

6. Proposed “Anti-Generalized AI”: Enhancing Rather Than Diminishing Agency

• A Personalized Approach: Argues for AIs that enhance, not replace, human decision-making—using personal biometrics to give back agency (58:35–61:49).
  • “It’s not trying to use the pattern for many people to figure out what Danny’s patterns are. It’s... a friend that is one on one.” — John Vervaeke (61:09)
• Contrast with Nudging & Manipulative AI: Critiques commercial/nudging AI, used to influence elections and personal choices (63:43–66:57).

7. The Meaning Crisis, Technology & Artificial Relationships

• Dangers of Simulated Companions: Highlights grief tech (AI avatars of the dead), people forming romantic or spiritual bonds with machines, and how AI can hijack meaning-seeking instincts (68:33–73:29).
  • “They worship their LLM because they're convinced... it has become enlightened or a God, and it is telling them what they need to do.” — John Vervaeke (69:39)

8. Philosophy of Life, Death, and the Search for Meaning

• On Grief, Mortality & Transcendence: Real human growth often comes through loss and uncontrollable events—AI simulations are a denial of reality and genuine grief (76:01–77:18).
• Resonance and Flow in Love & Reality: True relationships (romantic, friendships) keep us grounded, offer real counterbalance, and foster self-awareness—not narcissistic self-esteem (79:32–84:38).
  • “Love is the painful recognition that something other than yourself is real.” — Iris Murdoch, cited by John Vervaeke (81:23)
• On Death Anxiety: Pushes back on Sheldon Solomon’s “denial of death” thesis, arguing meaninglessness is more dangerous to the psyche than mortality itself (84:50–89:05).
• What Happens When We Die?
  • “Nothing. Blackness is what happens when you're something that can experience a room. There’s nothing... It’s like asking, what time is it on the sun?” — John Vervaeke (93:30–93:54)
  • Emphasizes the distinction between immortality (horizontal extension of life) and eternity (vertical depth of meaning).

9. Mystical and Prophetic Experiences: Natural or Supernatural?

• Sensed Presence and The Third Man Factor: Explains mystical/prophetic “visitation” experiences as valuable, cognitively real phenomena—sensed presence, not supernatural entities (95:06–107:54).
• Dreams and Foreknowledge: Most “prophetic dreams” are products of implicit learning, probability, and cognitive pattern recognition, not paranormal foresight (120:18–126:01).
  • “Human beings are very bad at judging probabilities... You have massive implicit learning.” — John Vervaeke (121:03)

10. Consciousness Explained: Nature, Function, and Uniqueness

• Three Fold Problem:
  • Nature: How can subjective experience emerge from matter?
  • Function: What is consciousness for?
  • Transcendental Status: How is consciousness a precondition for knowledge? (129:49–134:37)
• Relevance Realization: Central concept—consciousness is our capacity to filter, frame, and zero in on salient information for adaptive agency (135:51–139:26).
  • “You're intelligent precisely because you ignore most of that... Your intelligence is how good you are at filtering.” — John Vervaeke (136:14–136:19)
• Human Uniqueness: Our recursive, anticipatory, and normative capacities (storytelling, awareness of mortality, promise/permitting) set us apart as persons in communities, not just agents in environments (145:28–150:10).

11. Religion, Wisdom Traditions & the “Meaning Crisis”

• Role of Religion & Spirituality: Traditionally offered role models, traditions, and ecologies of practice for overcoming self-deception, enhancing connection, and providing meaning.
• Modern Predicament: Collapse of traditional religious trust; proliferation of “spiritual but not religious” seeks, self-focused ersatz practices, and a vacuum in meaning infrastructure (150:18–156:04).
  • “You need role models... ecologies of practices for overcoming self-deception and affording connection wisdom practices. Where are those traditions? Where are those ecology practices? Where are the role models?” — John Vervaeke (119:25–120:11)
• Hope in Contemporary Movements: Stoicism, mindfulness, and the psychedelic renaissance as attempts to self-cultivate meaning and wisdom—yet often lacking collective vetting and depth.

12. Reason, God & The Urge to Ultimacy

• Reason Beyond Logic: Critiques the modern reduction of reason to logic; emphasizes “relevance realization” and the correction of self-deception as the heart of real reasoning (156:57–163:36).
• Seeking the Really Real: Humanity’s perennial urge towards what’s most real, meaningful, and grounding—traditionally understood as “God.” Religion, at its best, organizes this quest for reality across agency, narrative, and community (163:01–163:36).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mystical experience:
  “You get this ineffable sense of being deeply at one ... and it will trigger what's called a transformative experience.” (29:22–30:38)
• On flow:
  "Flow is like an extended aha." (22:25)
• On the danger of AI:
  “We are slowly lobotomizing ourselves ... AI is making people irrational by getting them to care only about the results.” (51:20–55:03)
• On grief tech and AI companions:
  "It's not a human being anymore... Its only reason for existing is to make you feel better. That's not a person." (73:19–74:05)
• On love and reality:
  "Love is the painful recognition that something other than yourself is real." — Iris Murdoch quoted (81:23)
• On death, immortality, and meaning:
  "You long for eternity. We long for eternity and we get bullshitted into thinking we want immortality." (95:06)
• On consciousness:
  "You're intelligent precisely because you ignore most of that ... Your intelligence is how good you are at filtering." (136:14–136:19)
• On the modern meaning crisis:
  “Where do you go for wisdom, for overcoming self-deception and foolishness, for transforming, for transcending so you can see things more clearly, more real? ... That's the meaning crisis.” (119:19)

Key Timestamps

• 00:55 – Vervaeke’s childhood religious trauma and meaning crisis
• 03:00 – Journey to Socrates, Eastern philosophy, and cognitive science
• 06:22 – Jordan Peterson university controversy
• 13:31 – Balancing academic & public intellectual roles
• 17:11–27:09 – Cognitive continuum: fluency → insight → flow → mystical experience
• 37:40–44:04 – Flow, intuition, and cognitive adaptation
• 47:21–51:20 – Memory as reconstruction; AI’s impact
• 58:35–61:49 – Vision for “anti-generalized AI”
• 68:33–74:05 – Dangers of simulated relationships and grief tech
• 84:50–93:21 – What happens when we die? Meaning, death, and the search for eternity
• 129:49–139:26 – The nature and function of consciousness
• 145:28–150:10 – Uniqueness of human consciousness: agency, story, and normativity
• 150:18–156:04 – Modern meaning crisis, religion, and the "spiritual but not religious"
• 156:57–163:36 – Reason, the urge for ultimacy, and the search for God

Closing

Vervaeke offers a multidisciplinary, compassionate, and deeply humanistic vision of what it means to seek and create meaning in a world uprooted from tradition and beset by technological change. He calls listeners to engage in practices and communities that aim at wisdom and connectedness—not just fleeting satisfaction or convenience.

Further Resources:

• John Vervaeke’s YouTube channel (Awakening from the Meaning Crisis, After Socrates)
• Book: Awakening from the Meaning Crisis
• Online platform: The Lectern (Socratic dialogic education)

This summary aims to serve both as a guide and an invitation to listeners to engage more deeply with the questions, thinkers, and practices that matter most. Whether you’re searching for wisdom, spiritual experience, or simply trying to “get smarter,” Vervaeke’s perspective compels and illuminates in equal measure.