#373 - NASA Physicist Comes Clean on Advanced Ancient Civilizations | Adam Frank - Danny Jones Podcast

Transcript

A (0:00)

Foreign. Adam Frank, thanks for coming, man.

B (0:08)

It's a pleasure.

A (0:09)

Is it true you are one of the first scientists to get a grant from NASA to look for aliens?

B (0:16)

Look for. Not for aliens, but for intelligent civilization. Signs of intelligent life.

A (0:22)

Signs of intelligent life, yeah.

B (0:23)

Because there's the whole history of seti, right? So seti, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence is old, right? Goes back to the SETI. 1960s really was. First searches were done then and you know, it kind of, it was always marginalized. Right. You know, there were scientists who were doing it, but it was never very well funded. So we can talk about like things like the Fermi paradox, why there is no Fermi paradox, but we can get to that. But just that SETI was never really well funded. And then it really. There was a, a couple of congressmen in the 80s and 90s who really were like, we're not going to fund this stuff. And they just kept, they basically said to NASA, you can't fund any of this. Like if, you know, you'll just get bur if you do. And then. But by 1995, we discovered our first planet orbiting another star. So that was a big deal. Like that was when that was the first exoplanet. We discovered exoplanet 95. So when I was coming up in graduate school in the late 80s, if you asked me if there were any other planets, I'd be like, don't know. We could, you know, so our solar system could be the only one. Right. So 95, we discovered the first exoplanets. So the field of astrobiology, of thinking about life in space sort of starts, really starts in earnest. Then NASA starts putting money into it. But there was always this thing of like, sure, we'll study dumb life, like microbes, we'll go to Mars and we'll look for microbes and stuff and we can talk about that. But still, if you wanted to look for intelligent life, there was still kind of a bias at NASA. They literally, in some of the language like, oh, you want to apply for a grant, you can look for life, but don't look for, you know, intelligent life. And then there was this famous meeting in 2018 that where somebody in Congress said, oh, we need $10 million. NASA should have $10 million program for techno signatures, which is the new word for seti. Searching for signatures of technology.

A (2:07)

Interesting.

B (2:08)

And that was when sort of like NASA was like, oh, okay. So they brought a bunch of us together, people who were kind of interested and it was amazing. Three day meeting. And from that. Cause some colleagues and I put in a grant that was explicit. Like, yeah, we're looking for. We want to think about. We weren't even going to look yet. We were going to think about how to think about actually looking for techno signatures rather than just bio signatures. And that was the first grant. We got it funded in 2019 and we're still going.

Summary

Danny Jones Podcast #373 | Summary & Highlights NASA Physicist: Humans Might Not Be the First Advanced Species On Earth | Guest: Adam Frank Release Date: February 23, 2026

Main Theme / Episode Overview This episode features astrophysicist and astrobiologist Dr. Adam Frank, a NASA-funded scientist researching the detection of technological civilizations beyond Earth. The conversation delves into astrobiology, the search for “technosignatures,” humanity’s potential not to be the first advanced civilization on Earth (“The Silurian Hypothesis”), the history and limitations of UFO research, evolution and anthropocentrism, the future of AI and technology, climate change, and the role of science and skepticism in society.

Tone: Intellectual, candid, occasionally playful and irreverent, with Adam Frank taking on the role of “science explainer,” emphasizing critical thinking, evidence, and transparency in scientific inquiry.

Key Topics and Insights

NASA & The Search for Life [00:09–02:34]

Adam Frank recounts being among the first scientists to get NASA funding for searching for "technosignatures," i.e., evidence of advanced alien civilizations, not just biosignatures (basic life).
Early NASA and government resistance existed: “You can look for life, but don’t look for intelligent life.” (B, 01:59)
The first exoplanet discovery in 1995 was a pivotal moment, sparking astrobiology as a real field (B, 00:54).
“By 2005, now we’re getting the data that, like, every star has planets orbiting it.” (B, 04:24)
Differentiates SETI efforts from UFO/UAP conversations; most scientific searches are using telescopes, not anecdotal sightings (B, 02:41–03:47).

Silurian Hypothesis: Could We Detect Earlier Advanced Civilizations on Earth? [05:35–14:48]

Silurian Hypothesis explores whether we could discover evidence of an industrial civilization millions of years before humans.
“What we were really asking was, would there be a way to tell if there was a civilization like ours that lasted for, say, 10,000 years?” (B, 12:25)
Earth’s surface recycles—plate tectonics erase most traces after a few million years. (B, 08:51)
“After about 2.5 million years, there is no record...If you start going back 10 million years, 100 million years, like, really now, the planet has changed so dramatically that all you’ve got are fossils. And in general, the fossil record sucks, right?” (B, 08:51)
The only lasting signs would be chemical isotopic anomalies in rock strata—markers like industrial-level CO₂ in the geologic record (B, 13:44–14:48).
Ice cores only go back ~100,000 years; rocks are required for big timescales (B, 13:46).

Speculative Physics, Fringe Science & Conspiracy [16:27–29:29]

Frank is skeptical about phenomena like the Biefeld–Brown effect and claims of “antigravity” or secret propulsion breakthroughs, insisting they’re not validated by physics or “the mountain of boulders” supporting major theories (B, 17:46–24:07).
“There is no anti-gravity...there’s no way to shield yourself against gravity.” (B, 25:07)
Discusses the scientific method, transparency in science, and the pitfalls of fringe—science is an open, communal, rigorous process, not secret or conspiracy (B, 27:52).

Science, Pseudoscience, Public Knowledge [29:29–34:18]

Science, Frank insists, is about “public knowledge”—that which can be repeatedly tested and observed, not beliefs or opinions (B, 32:07).
Relates scientific claims’ standards to the lack of credible evidence in UFO testimonies: “I am all for public, transparent investigations of UFO and UAPs...but I’ve never seen anything from UFOs...that lives up [to scientific standards].” (B, 33:02)
Personal belief ≠ scientific proof; science asks “How would you know?” with rigor.

UFOs, Military Testimony & Skepticism [35:33–45:47]

Frank describes the cyclical history of UFO claims and government secrecy; acknowledges whistleblowers and pilot testimonies, but stresses lack of hard evidence.
“It’s always guys who claim they saw something, or most of all, they don’t claim they saw it. They claim they know somebody who says they know somebody who saw it...Show me the saucer.” (B, 38:14)
“Personal testimony is the worst form of evidence...from a scientific point of view, personal testimony is not rigorous evidence...the whole point of science is to not fool ourselves, not let our beliefs get in the way of what we can actually show to be true.” (B, 45:47)

Government, Secrecy, and the Limits of “Hidden Science” [47:49–52:52]

On black projects and claims of hidden breakthroughs: “You have to have the circulation of ideas...The idea that you could have a small group of scientists in some dark government lab devise a theory that is light years ahead...that’s not how science works.” (B, 51:35)

Anthropocentrism, Evolution, and the “Alien” Question [52:52–64:11]

The probability that bipedal, human-like intelligence evolves elsewhere is extremely small—convergent evolution exists, but contingency/random accidents dominate. (B, 56:00–58:03)
“The idea that you’re going to get something with bipedal shoulders, arms, eyes that look like us, like...it’s probably so unlikely.” (B, 59:00)
Evolutionary scenarios (pedomorphism, human future, “gray aliens”) are discussed and largely dismissed as speculative; evolution is messy, non-repeatable.
Covers the vastness of interstellar distances and practical barriers to physical visitation by extraterrestrials.

Artificial Intelligence, Technology, and Society [66:11–79:13]

Frank is deeply skeptical about current large language model AI (LLMs) as “true intelligence,” calling them “autocomplete on steroids” without understanding or world models (B, 70:38–71:37).
Worries about “AI slop”—recursive training on AI-generated content leading to a collapse of information quality: “Now...the next generation of AI trains itself on this version of the Internet that was produced by AI. So…the next generation was trained on bullshit.” (B, 78:49)
Critical of emotional computing, “AI agents,” and the drive to replace nuanced human functions with poorly understood algorithms, warning of both societal flattening and profit-driven technology racing ahead of wisdom (B, 73:01–76:47).

Civilization, History & Inequality [91:36–96:13]

Recounts the theory from “Goliath’s Curse”: large states ("Goliaths") rise and fall repeatedly due to climate disruptions and—most crucially—inequality. (B, 93:36)
“Almost always what brings [great civilizations] down are two things. One is climate...But even more importantly was inequality.” (B, 93:36)

Space Exploration: Moon, Mars & China [97:00–113:27]

Discusses America’s retreat from ambitious spaceflight (“no political will”), China’s ascendency, and the ongoing moon landing debates. Frank is emphatic: moon landing denial is anti-scientific and deeply damaging (B, 97:29–107:54).
Technical notes: Emphasizes expendable (Saturn V) vs. reusable (current rockets) technology and the economic challenges of sustained crewed missions.
Warns of political, economic, and ideological threats to American scientific leadership, contrasting US with China’s focus and investment.

The Rarity of Advanced Life: Earth, the Moon, and Biosignatures [113:27–124:15]

Our Moon is unusually large relative to Earth—could be key to our planet's climate stability and the rise of life.
“Is that why we got intelligent life on Earth? I don’t know, but...the Rare Earth hypothesis” (B, 117:53)
Next ~30 years will bring a new era of exoplanet biosignature detection via advanced telescopes.

The Interplay of Life and Earth’s Atmosphere & Climate [124:17–149:18]

Oxygen in Earth's atmosphere is an almost-certain biosignature; it was absent until life evolved photosynthesis, fundamentally transforming planetary conditions (B, 124:15–125:41).
Climate change is a signature of technological (and even biological) success—other species (e.g. photosynthetic microbes) radically altered Earth's environment before us.
“This whole...people who are like, ‘it’s a hoax’...If you take...the position that climate science...is a hoax, then it’s like, why do you hate human beings so much? We did this amazing thing, like we changed the atmosphere of an entire planet.” (B, 126:41)
Differentiates clearly between “the science”—the physics of greenhouse gases, settled for decades—and “the politics”—how to respond.

Climate, Skepticism, and the Challenge of Policy

Climate and political polarization: science is sound, but decisions about what to do are inherently political, and doing nothing is itself a choice (B, 127:14–154:07).
“Doing nothing is a policy decision.” (B, 154:07)
Examines paleoclimate data, the role of CO₂ vs. other variables, and debunks common tropes (e.g., “CO₂ isn’t the big driver” and “we just had cooling in the ’40s–’70s”). The basics of greenhouse effect are established science since at least the early 20th century.

Science Communication, Myth, and Interdisciplinarity [159:26–166:43]

On integrating different kinds of knowledge: “Astrobiology now has become really an interdisciplinary field...mindboggling because you just...learn about the Great Oxidation event...then the biochemistry of sugar production in microbes that survive 700º temperatures...” (B, 159:51)
Myth persists because it encodes elemental human truths; science and myth function differently, but science must be clear about “what we know.”
Flood myths are discussed as possible echoes of real events (“echoes of some sort of reality that could have got skewed...over millennia”) but remain unprovable in specifics.

Closing Thoughts

Advances in observation will reveal more about life and planets, but mysteries (including UFOs, interstellar objects, and mass extinctions) demand humility and evidence.
Adam Frank urges a renewed respect for science’s process: rigor, transparency, and collaboration are crucial—not secret knowledge or belief.
“Public knowledge and transparency…that’s what we know and that’s the beauty.” (B, 27:52)
“There are real world consequences [to conspiracy thinking]...The society that wins is the society that leads in science and technology.” (B, 109:36)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

“After about 2.5 million years, there is no record…If you start going back 10 million years, 100 million years…the planet has changed so dramatically that all you’ve got are fossils...and in general, the fossil record sucks...” – Adam Frank [08:51]
“Science is this beautiful process that we’ve learned over centuries to not fool ourselves. That’s really what it’s about, to not fool ourselves.” – Adam Frank [27:52]
“Personal testimony is the worst form of evidence…from a scientific point of view, personal testimony is not rigorous evidence.” – Adam Frank [45:47]
“You have to have the circulation of ideas…The idea that you could have a small group of scientists in some dark government lab devise a theory that is light years ahead…that’s not how science works.” – Adam Frank [51:35]
“Doing nothing is a policy decision…climate is changing because of human activity.” – Adam Frank [154:07]
“The science has been settled for decades.” – Adam Frank [138:19]
“Our lifeblood is tearing each other to shreds. That’s why…the idea of academic science as this thing…no. Science is this global, diversified thing.” – Adam Frank [46:37]
“You don’t need fringe science to freak out about how beautiful the world is.” – Adam Frank [29:26]
“There is no anti-gravity...because gravity only has one kind of charge, and it always attracts...there’s no way to shield yourself against gravity.” – Adam Frank [25:07]

Timestamps for Important Segments

[00:09–05:35] — Origins of astrobiology, exoplanets, NASA’s approach
[05:35–14:48] — The Silurian Hypothesis: Could we detect prior Earth civilizations?
[16:27–26:20] — Physics, anti-gravity claims, theory vs. speculation
[29:29–34:18] — Science methodology vs. fringe/conspiracy
[35:33–45:47] — UFOs, official testimony, evidence
[47:49–52:52] — Government, black projects & scientific discovery limits
[56:00–64:11] — Evolution, aliens, anthropocentrism
[66:11–79:13] — AI, automation, the future of technology
[91:36–96:13] — Civilizations, history, and societal collapse
[97:00–113:27] — Space policy, Moon landings, US vs. China
[113:27–124:17] — Unique features of Earth & the Moon, biosignatures
[124:17–149:18] — Climate change, science vs. politics, settled questions
[159:26–165:11] — Interdisciplinarity, myth, ancient floods, scientific process

Conclusion & Takeaways Adam Frank’s episode offers a masterclass in scientific thinking, skepticism, and humility. It provides rich discussions on the search for life, the challenge of ancient civilizations’ detectability, and the necessity for applying robust, transparent standards to claims—from UFOs to climate change. While technology and society face turbulence—from AI’s disruption to climate crisis—Frank’s optimism and devotion to public, communal science serve as a call for collective rationality, technological stewardship, and awe for the cosmic scale of both our ignorance and our potential.