DarkHorse Podcast #309: The Washington State of Science

Hosts: Bret Weinstein & Heather Heying
Date: January 17, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode centers on the state of science and “scientism” in Washington State, with a particular focus on government responses to changes in the US childhood vaccine schedule, the manipulation of scientific rhetoric in politics, the broader problem of expert authority versus real evidence, and how ideology clouds public health decisions. The discussion extends from the local (Washington State politics) to the national and international stages, integrating evolutionary and systemic perspectives. The episode concludes with commentary on cultural developments (e.g., a notable casting on Broadway), and a reflection on the passing of Dilbert creator Scott Adams, especially as it relates to the legacy of COVID-19 vaccine debates.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of Science & “Scientism” in Washington State

• Washington's Response to Vaccine Schedule Changes
  • Recent federal changes to the US childhood vaccine schedule prompted a strong negative reaction from Washington Governor Bob Ferguson, who, in a publicized video, insisted the state would stand by “science” and create its own vaccine policy via the Department of Health.
    • [14:33] Ferguson Video: “The Centers for Disease Control has seen an exodus of scientific experts... I immediately took action and teamed up with other governors to form the West Coast Health Alliance... guided by, you guessed it again, science.”
  • Heather points out that Ferguson was previously the state’s Attorney General through the COVID period and enforced some of the nation’s strictest mandates.
• What Changed Federally?
  • Trump’s administration directed a comparison with peer nations, leading to more conservative vaccine schedules aligned with consensus in other developed countries. Non-core vaccines (e.g. flu, COVID) are moved to “doctor-patient decision” rather than blanket recommendation.
    • [16:10-20:42] Heather (reading from new federal document):
      • “The US is a global outlier among peer nations in... recommended vaccine doses... the consensus vaccines will represent the core childhood vaccine schedule.”
  • Bret: “Tracy Beth Hogue and Martin Kulldorff are in no way extreme… our governor is responding to people who are cautious in his direction and he is treating them as if they are zealots or cranks and nothing could be further from the truth.” [19:30]
  • The revised CDC recommendations remain relatively conservative—removing almost nothing, while giving families more freedom of choice.
• Local Politics and Manipulation of Science
  • Bret and Heather analyze Governor Ferguson’s approach as posturing: “I don’t get the sense from our governor that he has a deep feeling about anything. This is a posture.”
  • Heather: “He stands for authoritarianism. He stands for bullying. He stands for trust in experts, for deferring your own thought and analytics and agency and autonomy over to other people...” [39:01]
  • They discuss the local landscape and “Democratic Party tyranny” via large urban centers overriding more rural voices. [27:12-28:14]

2. Broader Critique: Science vs. Scientism

• Bret: “He is picking up on a decades-long propaganda campaign that misled a lot of people, including you and me, into imagining that these [vaccines] had a net health benefit that was not demonstrated and imagining they had been safety tested such that the likelihood of them doing harm was vanishingly small. Which it isn’t.”
  • Advocates for meaningful, careful regulation—not a “free for all” or blind faith in “choice,” which exposes vulnerable families to commercial manipulation. [24:45-25:09]
• Blue Team and Unfalsifiability
  • Bret observes that many on the political “blue team” have become unable to admit when they’re wrong: “They have a kind of unfalsifiable mindset...” [29:59]
  • Heather notes that media and academia reinforce echo chambers.
  • Notable quote:
    Heather [32:22]: “You come to find it easy to demonize those people, to imagine that they are the boogeyman in the corner... It’s a bizarre and frankly really sad irony... everything’s about inclusiveness and diversity... but there’s a very good chance that you just never run into any doesn’t think like you do, or at least who doesn’t say it aloud.”

3. Authoritarianism & Hypocrisy in Mandates

• Heather references the Silent Majority Foundation lawsuit (Hansen vs. Ferguson) over unyielding vaccine mandates, even for remote employees requesting religious exemptions. [36:52-39:01]
  • “Firing people who work entirely remotely for not getting a shot that is not only not effective, but actually dangerous, is not exactly a scientific approach, is it?” [39:53]
• Bret invokes the Nuremberg code: “That particular piece of tyranny is obviously a violation of Nuremberg...” [40:12]

4. Evasion of Science in Gender Discussions

• Clip: State Senate Majority Leader Jamie Peterson asked about biological differences in sport
  • [57:13-58:24] Peterson refuses to affirm biological reality—evades, claims no expertise, suggests hormone therapy “probably changes the scientific balance.”
  • Heather’s critique: “It is much easier to just see on the face of the comet that he’s being cowardly and not trusting what is in front of his and everyone's eyes.” [59:07]
  • Discussion: “There are no sex changes in mammals, end of story. Cannot happen.” [61:42]
• The use of ‘science’ as political rhetoric: Both Ferguson and Peterson’s use of “science” is critiqued as mere branding and virtue signaling, rather than honest inquiry or evidence-based policymaking.

5. Reflections on Conformity, Honesty, and Social Ostracism

• Stepping Outside the Echo Chamber
  • Heather recounts their own “through the looking glass” experience after being publicly targeted as “racists” and the resulting discovery of unexpected allies. [47:33-50:21]
  • “There is a relief and a release of tension around all the things that you were not saying... when you go through that looking glass, there is a relief... it's incredibly fantastic, and I recommend it.” [49:19]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Science vs. Scientism, and Political Contrarianism:
  • Bret: “It’s the opposite of human conscious, thoughtful analysis. It’s robotic, it’s automatic. And it’s dangerous.” [42:15]
  • Heather: “It’s far easier to have a political platform based on contrarianism than on analysis...” [41:33]
• On Vaccine Schedule Overhaul:
  • Heather: “If he responds with this kind of hysterical anti-scientific, pro-scientistic rhetoric to a very conservative set of recommendations, what he is trying to do is get parents basically up in arms.... to decry the craziness that is happening and to get them to even more unquestioningly simply vaccinate their children with any drug that a doctor or a pharmaceutical company presents them with.” [26:00]
• On Institutional Failure:
  • Bret: “What turns out to be true is impossible in the world that we thought we lived in...” [62:26]
  • Heather: “If the systems that we understood these vaccines to have been created in and accepted by were at all functional, they wouldn’t be on the schedule.” [62:58]
• On Social Ostracism:
  • Heather: “…If that's how you decide who your friends are and you're going to pick based on who's in power right now, I don't want you as my friends. Like, if you're only choosing teams based on power, you are dangerous and shallow. Both...” [47:33-48:12]
  • Bret: “For the same reason that you should read the books they wish to burn, we should highlight every time somebody...puts out a puff of squid ink and disappears. We should...highlight their cowardice.” [67:10]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [13:47]: Discussion begins on Washington’s response to federal vaccine policy changes—Governor Ferguson’s video.
• [19:30]: Critique of the new CDC vaccine policy and Governor Ferguson’s reaction.
• [24:45]: Analyses on the dangers of “choice” without real regulation or science.
• [27:03]: Washington’s sociopolitical divide and the effect on policy.
• [32:22]: Media echo chambers and the unfalsifiability problem in political thought.
• [36:52]: Lawsuit against Ferguson over draconian vaccine mandates—even for remote workers.
• [39:53]: Mandates as “utterly insane” and not scientific.
• [57:13]: Exchange with State Senate Leader Jamie Peterson, discussing “men and women in sport” and the refusal to acknowledge biological reality.
• [61:42]: Biological sex differences and the reality of mammalian biology.
• [67:10]: The necessity of confronting political cowardice and upholding analytical thinking.

Cultural Segment: Broadway Casting Controversy

• Dylan Mulvaney to Portray Anne Boleyn on Broadway
  • Heather introduces the news that TikTok personality Dylan Mulvaney (male, identifies as trans woman) is cast as Anne Boleyn in the musical “Six”—a role deeply rooted in female history.
  • They discuss the absurdity: “One of the most important and influential women from English history, whose femaleness was utterly and completely endogenous to her role in history. She couldn’t have been any of the things that she was if she’d just been a dude.” [76:04]
  • Reflection on cultural capture, the state of theater criticism, and the performativity of allyship in progressive circles [78:31-82:14]

In Memoriam: Scott Adams

• Scott Adams’ (Dilbert Creator) Death and COVID-19 Vaccine Reflections
  • Bret discusses his late correspondence with Scott Adams, who had initially been pro-COVID vaccine, later publicly reversed, acknowledging he had been wrong after observing outcomes and analyses. Adams famously said:
    • [85:07-87:23]: “The anti vaxxers clearly are the winners at this point... it's never wrong to distrust government. It's never wrong to distrust big companies... the people who didn’t get vaxxed are absolutely in the winning position. You win, you win. You are the winners.”
  • Heather and Bret analyze Adams’ admission—and clarify that many of the “anti-vaxxers” were conducting genuine analysis, not mere contrarianism.
    • Bret: “His particular understanding... is incorrect and unfair to those of us who were actually doing our own analysis and came out on the other side and tried to convince Scott...and yes, we did turn out to be right.” [88:12-89:29]
  • Reflection on the tragic possibility that Adams’ analytic error cost him his life.
  • Concluding thought: “What we do next time—this is now a challenging problem because once you’ve seen the institutional structure tell you the exact inverse of what you’re supposed to do, it is now harder to think independently...” [92:01]

Episode Tone

• The conversation is critical, analytical, and at times deeply personal. The hosts weave skepticism of institutions with humor, empathy for those “through the looking glass,” and a persistent call for honest, careful reasoning over groupthink or political posturing.

Summary Table:

| Time | Topic/Event | Key Quote | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 13:47 | Ferguson’s “science” video & state vaccine policy | "I'm proud to partner... to shift vaccine recommendations away from science denying federal committees..." — Ferguson [14:33] | | 19:30 | Critique of CDC policy revision and political posturing | "Tracy Beth Hogue and Martin Kulldorff are in no way extreme..." — Bret | | 24:45 | Problem of “choice” vs. real protection in health | “We have things like a CDC in order to protect us...” — Bret | | 36:52 | Lawsuit against Ferguson for vaccine mandates | “They were long standing Christians ... They refused to get vaccinated and they were fired.” — Heather | | 57:13 | Jamie Peterson on sex differences in sport | "I don't have the scientific expertise to be able to weigh in on that..." — Peterson | | 85:07 | Scott Adams video: anti-vaxxers “won” | "You are the winners. You are the winners." — Scott Adams |

Conclusion

This episode is a sweeping critique of how science and authority are wielded in public life, especially in health policy and cultural politics. It exposes the dangers of confusing “scientism” with genuine empirical investigation, highlights the need for vigilance and self-reflection, and delivers a pointed call for honesty—even (and especially) when it runs counter to the prevailing dogmas of the moment.

End of Summary