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Data-Smart City Pod
Supporting Childhood Opportunity Starts With Environmental Justice
00:17:41
Lead pipes aren't just a water infrastructure problem—they're connected to poverty, violence, and lost opportunity. Milwaukee's mayor explains why removing them matters to public safety and economic mobility. Host Stephen Goldsmith speaks with Milwaukee Mayor Cavalier Johnson about how his city is accelerating lead pipe removal, creating family-supporting jobs, and why environmental justice is central to breaking cycles of poverty and incarceration. In this episode, you'll learn: - Why lead exposure affects public safety, not just health - How lead removal becomes an economic development opportunity for neighborhoods - Why early interventions in kids' lives prevent long-term harm - How Milwaukee prioritizes removal in the most under-resourced neighborhoods - What federal funding will enable Milwaukee to remove 5,000 lead pipes in a single year
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- [00:03]
A
From datasmart city solutions the bloomberg center for cities, this is the datasmart citypod.
- [00:15]
B
Thank you and welcome back. This is Steve Goldsmith from the Bloomberg center for Cities with another one of our podcasts. We have a terrific guest today, the mayor of Milwaukee, Mayor Johnson, who has a compelling story and a lot of terrific initiatives. Welcome, Mayor.
- [00:31]
C
Thank you. Thank you, Mayor, nice to see you.
- [00:33]
B
Thank you. Before we get to kind of the details of the podcast, I think your background is interesting and how it prepared you for mayor because more mayors, you talk to the context in which they grew up and their nonprofit and community activities kind of shape their view of their role as mayor. Could you just give us a little bit of information about your background, please?
- [00:55]
C
Absolutely. So I grew up here in the city of Milwaukee. I've got a number of siblings. I went to Milwaukee public schools from kindergarten all the way to 12th grade. I was the first person in my family to go to college, was recruited in 8th grade and maintained a relationship with the YMCA. They had a scholarship program to get low income families, students thereof, off to college. Other part of that program was to get those same kids involved in public service and give it back. And I fell in love at 14 years old with helping people in my community. That same year, 9, 11 happened and I watched President George W. Bush go to the rubble that was the World Trade center in New York. And I thought to myself, I have to do that. I have to go into public office some form, some fashion, some way. And so I ran for office a couple times, lost, but stayed at it and eventually was able to rise up in positions here in city government. Alderman, city council president, and now mayor.
- [01:51]
B
Great story. It's a good story for a reason that you have no idea about, which is my wife was a senior official in the national ymca. So every shout out to the Y gives me a couple points. So thanks very much for that.
- [02:02]
C
Happy to do it.
- [02:04]
B
Thank you. So, Mayor, one of the things that among many that drew our attention to you was your work on lead pipes. But let me start with a more general question. You ran on issues such as violence and other serious matters that afflict cities, Milwaukee and other cities as well. So how did you come about paying attention to environment as a issue worthy of your time, attention and rhetoric?
- [02:31]
C
Sure, absolutely. There are a number of issue areas that I focus on in my administration. You're right. Given the neighborhoods that I grew up in, you know, crime and public safety and just level setting with people in Milwaukee about that was central and important and remains to be important. So I spent a lot of time focusing in on that housing, which is the year of housing this year in 2026 in Milwaukee. Transportation jobs are important, but climate is also important and our environment is also important for a whole host of reasons because I think it's a through line. It's an intersection with many of those other categories that I focus on as mayor. When you think about lead service lines and the removal of them, there is an impact in all those areas. There's obviously no safe level of lead for people, particularly kids 6 years of age and under. And so we want to work to make sure that we're protecting public health. But when those neurotoxins get in the brain and it's not reversible sometimes down the line when those kids get older, it may cause them to do things that they shouldn't do, which is a harm to public safety. And so that's why paying attention to these things are important. It's important now, but it's also important for our city's future as well.
- [03:41]
B
Let's stay on this for a second because I think that last sentence or two is really quite important. We have at Bloomberg Center a grant from the Robert Wood Johnson foundation to look at hyper local environmental data and its effect on public health. So where does lead make a difference? Where does PM2.5 make a difference? And just to give a commercial here, I wrote a book about workforce economic mobility and one of the things that we noticed was something you just mentioned, which I don't think very many mayors think about, which is that exposure to lead, actually exposure to lead or violence and extreme heat creates long term challenges for a young adult in a community that's stressed. So how do you make that case to your community that fairness requires us to intervene early, otherwise we've disadvantaged a youth forever?
- [04:36]
C
Yeah, well, you know, I use really my own background, my own history and story. Here's another shout out to the YMCA, which I'll be 40 years old later this year. I started, as I mentioned, with the YMCA and those programs when I was a 14 year old kid and I still wear this YMCA wristband, you know, each and every single day. So hopefully those give you some more brownie points with the wife. But I say that to say I know firsthand that earlier interventions in the lives of young people are critically important. So that's why we have that focus here. That's why we've had long standing programs, workforce development programs like our Earn and Learn Summer Youth Jobs program that prepares young people for a career of work. In addition to that program, we started a new program in my administration working with kids even younger, because I believe in having earlier interventions in the lives of young people, Whether it's this in workforce development or whether it's removing hazards out of young people's way. Because at the end of the day, my goal is to make it so that young people here in Milwaukee are able to be productive, contributing members to society as opposed to folks who take away from it.
- [05:44]
B
We have in this Robert Wood Johnson foundation, our partners are the African American Mayors association and the Environmental Defense Fund. And we're trying to help with the narrative about why other mayors should pay as much attention to this issue. And I think your concentration on lifetime opportunity is important. Let's go back for a second, though, to lead service lines where you've established a national reputation. What is a service line and what is it about those service lines that produces problems?
- [06:19]
C
Sure. So a service line is essentially the pipe that connects a home, that the tap that you turn on via the internal plumbing and infrastructure under the ground to a city water main. So it's essentially how you get water from your municipality into your house for dishwashing, teeth brushing, you know, showering, etc. Many years ago, decades ago, the best available material known at the time to build those service lines was out of lead. Unfortunately, we've come to find out over time, with better public health, that the neurotoxins in lead can have an adverse health effect on people, particularly kids age 6 and below. And so that's why there's a push, and we have certainly been leading that push to remove all lead service lines out of the ground in the city. More Milwaukee. Before we endeavored to take lead service lines out of the ground, we were cognizant of the issues around lead. And so we worked for years with our waterworks utility to coat the inside of those lead service lines with a phosphate which prevented the leaching of lead, so that it was as clean as it could be as it was delivered to homes.
- [07:30]
B
When I was deputy mayor of New York, I was concerned about the fact that the service lines generally, not just the lead service lines, but the service lines that had the most problems were servicing homes that had the fewest resources. Right. They were the oldest homes. And the whole system struck me as unfair. How have you managed the financing of this? Federal dollars have been cut back. How are you addressing both the priorities of where you remediate and how you finance it?
- [07:59]
C
Yeah, I mean, speaking of the federal dollars, when Joe Biden was President and the passage of the bipartisan infrastructure law, they presented an opportunity for us to pull in a lot of money from the feds in order to expedite our removal of lead service lines. So generally speaking, traditionally, and this is something that we were able to manage at the local level, we would replace about a thousand lead service lines a year out of the roughly 70, 75,000 or so that we had when there was an infusion of federal dollars that came directly to cities, including directly to us in Milwaukee, which I would always advocate for and will continue to advocate for, putting dollars directly into the hands of mayors, because we get things done. When those dollars came directly to us from the Biden administration, we were able to expedite the removal of land service lines. So we went from 1,000 a year to about 2,500 a year to about 3,500 a year. And this year we're looking at removing 5,000 land service lines out of the ground in the city of Milwaukee. And the way that we have worked to do it over the past number of years, which I'm really proud of, our Department of Public Works, and particularly our Waterworks, is using an area deprivation index where we look at issues around the social and economic prosperity of particular neighborhoods and make the decision to go there first. Just like you were talking about, Mayor, so that we can focus in on those neighborhoods that lack resources to remove those lead service lines out of there first.
- [09:26]
B
Is that what you call your prioritization program?
- [09:29]
C
Correct.
- [09:30]
B
And so, so many obstacles in the way and you seem to be doing such a good job. Are there labor issues with respect to enough resources to do these projects?
- [09:40]
C
Yeah, I mean, that was an initial concern that we had as we were trying to expedite or amplify rather the number of lead service lines that we were seeking to take out of the ground. Issues around workforce we have found success over the course of the last number of years. The workforce has really glommed on to the opportunity to do this. And I think that many of them see this as a long term project, which is really good. And that's another piece of what I was talking about earlier in terms of the necessity to take these lead service lines out of the ground. People need access to good paying, family supporting jobs. This provides an opportunity to do so. The way that I've talked about it here in Milwaukee is to look at what's happened in Atlanta with Hartsville Jackson International Airport over time and how the airport was an economic development opportunity for the city and connected people with good paying Jobs. The same thing is true of removing lead service laterals out of the ground in cities like Milwaukee or others around the Great Lakes region, where the vast majority of these lead service lines continue to exist in the United States. You can create good jobs for those folks with removing lead service lines. And that's what we're seeing in Milwaukee and other cities in Wisconsin.
- [10:47]
B
It's really interesting. You're doing in your answers what really good mayors do, right? Which is you're. You're connecting the various threads, right? You have economic development, you have health and opportunity, you have violence in homes. The way you're putting it all together is a great statement. Let me just go back for a minute. I think your background, your approach is very interesting. Why don't you brag about what things have you accomplished the most for Milwaukee in your time as mayor?
- [11:13]
C
Oh, gosh, it sort of feels like a whirlwind. I just. I just come to the office and just try to do good work for the people that I serve here. Certainly, increasing the number of lead service lines getting taken out of the ground is an accomplishment. And last year we celebrated 10,000 lead service lines being taken out in Milwaukee over the course of our program, which has been going on for a little under 10 years now. We're seeking to do 5,000 this year, so we'll get half that number in just one year. So I'm really excited about that. I touched on the fact that in my administration, we created a new program which I think will probably be the thing I'm most proud of when I leave office at some point in the future, which is our Camp Rise program. You know, I grew up here. I grew up in the most challenged neighborhoods in Milwaukee. The 53206 zip code where I was raised is one of the most incarcerated zip codes for black men in the United States. As a matter of fact, I've got two other brothers. One of them is a warden who runs a Wisconsin prison, and another has been his prisoner at times. He's in prison right now. So what happens, you know, out of this particular zip code can produce people that could be mayors or potentially can produce people who are prisoners, like one of my older brothers there. When I look at opportunities to have, again, those earlier interventions in the lives of young people, I'm really proud of that. And so Camp Rise, we created it because I was made aware that some kids as young as 10 years old in our city were being recruited to steal cars and cause damage and mayhem on our streets. And so I said, we have to find another way to engage with these kids. And so we created a new mentorship program, a workforce development program. And we're the only big city in the United States of America that's doing workforce development with kids as young as 10 years old. It's a great program, and I recommend other mayors across the country adopt similar programs. Housing is a huge issue. I believe. Last year, the Wall Street Journal said that Milwaukee was one of the most cutthroat rental markets in the United States. So one of the things we're doing to address the issues around housing, we passed our biggest zoning reform framework than we have in 20 years. It'll do a whole host of things to help us increase supply, making it cheaper for people to stay here in the city. So I'm really, really proud of that. We introduced a new tool for housing in Milwaukee, a workforce Housing Tax incremental financing tool. The reason for this being that, and I know that a number of folks who will see this and hear this can relate. I certainly could relate, too. When you graduate from college and you get that first good job, the structures that be pretend as if you've made it, like you don't need any assistance, you don't need any help. You're good. When you're growing up in neighborhoods like I grew up in, that's not always the case. But you make $1 above whatever threshold that they've created, and you can't get any assistance. The same thing is true of young people starting off in their first job, their first good career now. And so we're trying to find a way to make housing more affordable for those folks who are just entering the workforce. So I'm really, really proud about that. We got a couple of projects that are coming off the ground in Milwaukee now. There's more, but I could. But I'll. But I'll stop there.
- [14:26]
B
Did we just hear the state of the city speech? Is that what just happened?
- [14:31]
C
That's coming up.
- [14:34]
B
I know. I feel like I heard a preview. One of the things you said is particularly interesting to me is that most cities don't realize the damage done to young adults before they enter their first job. Right. The violence and poverty and heat and lead, and so they have no executive skills. They're not ready for their first job. So both attending to the environment and getting involved in workforce programs early is so critical. Mayor, I want to have you help me motivate other mayors to pay attention to environment and its importance to their communities. So what would you tell your peers on why they should Pay attention to lead pipes and other serious environmental issues 100%.
- [15:22]
C
I feel like, you know, my sort of upbringing here and the upbringing of, you know, other kids who live in similar neighborhoods helps to inform the reason why I do the things that I do in this job as mayor, is why I continue to go to schools, to show kids who live in the same neighborhoods and face the same challenges that I did that there is a way out. You can make something of yourself, even if you are subjected to some of the things you just talked about, whether it's lead, the urban island, heat effect, violence, you know, all those things. I encourage mayors to pay attention to these things, reach back out to their communities and work to make those efforts. Certainly when there's big changes that happen, there are going to be people who are naysayers. But I think at the end of the day, when you paint a vision of a stronger, a better city and a city that I'm trying to build here that is more stable, then it puts those young people in a position down the line where they can become productive, contributing members to society. And that's ultimately what we want to see. Because it doesn't matter where I go in this city. And I know it's true of other mayors. You can go to any neighborhood, talk to any person in any class with any dollar amount that they bring home, and everybody will tell you they want the same thing. They want peaceful, quiet enjoyment of their home. They want a good quality of life. They want to be able to send their kids to a quality education, and they want public safety. Those things are central. Those things are key. Those things are universal. And I would encourage mayors to take climate and take environment into account when they're making decisions about their city. That's why things around climate and environment are one of the five pillars that I work on each and every single day at this job.
- [16:56]
B
This is Steve Goldsmith with Mayor Johnson from Milwaukee. Terrific set of accomplishments, but maybe most interesting to me, Mayor, is the wonderful way that your lived experiences affect your quality as mayor and your ability to put those two things together. So thank you very much for your time, and keep up the good work.
- [17:17]
C
Thank you, sir.
- [17:19]
A
If you like this podcast, please Visit us at datasmartcities.org and find us on itunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This podcast was hosted by Stephen Goldsmith and produced by me, Betsy Gardner. Thanks for listening.