A mom's desperate search to find her daughter. Tears and fury in an Ohio courtroom. And the latest in the Karen Read case.

Summary

Dateline NBC: A Mom's Desperate Search, Ohio's Pike County Massacre, and More Episode Released: January 9, 2025

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Introduction Host: Andrea Canning

In this gripping episode of Dateline NBC, host Andrea Canning delves into a tapestry of true-crime stories that span from a desperate mother's search for her missing daughter to the harrowing Pike County Massacre in Ohio. The episode also explores ongoing cases, including the Karen Reed trial and insights into jury duty from an expert consultant. Below is a detailed summary capturing the episode's key points, discussions, and poignant moments.

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1. Jasmine Pace Case: A Mother's Quest for Truth

Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee

Overview: On November 23, 2022, 22-year-old Jasmine Pace sent her mother, Katrina Pace, a distressing text message containing only a PIN drop, indicating her location. Jasmine never returned home, prompting Katrina and her family to embark on a frantic search.

Key Events:

• Investigation Initiated: The Paces discovered Jasmine's phone, license, and credit cards at Jason Chen's condo after forcibly entering the apartment (Transcript [03:12]–[07:25]).
• Discovery of the Body: Jasmine's body was later found in a suitcase, having been brutally stabbed 60 times.
• Suspect and Trial Preparations: Jason Chen, Jasmine's boyfriend, was charged with murder and abuse of a corpse but pleaded not guilty. The defense scrutinizes Katrina Pace's unauthorized investigation, alleging potential contamination of evidence.

Notable Quotes:

• Katrina Pace: "It wasn't normal for me to break into apartments." ([06:45])
• Grayson Gordon (Reporter): "This is a very disturbing scene." ([05:46])
• Katrina Pace: "I knew it wasn't good." ([03:12])

Trial Developments: The trial is set to commence with jurors being sequestered and brought in from another county to mitigate pretrial publicity's influence. Katrina's actions, though driven by maternal desperation, are under defense's scrutiny to potentially exclude critical evidence.

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2. Pike County Massacre: Family Betrayal and Ruthless Retribution

Location: Pike County, Ohio

Overview: One of Ohio's most gruesome crimes, the Pike County Massacre, involved the murder of seven adults and a 16-year-old boy over a custody dispute concerning Sophia, the daughter of Hannah May and Jake Wagner.

Key Events:

• The Massacre: On April 22, 2016, multiple members of the Rhoden family were found shot to death in four locations.
• Motive and Arrests: The Wagner family, initially friends with the Rodens, believed Sophia was being abused by a Rhoden family member. This belief, though unfounded, led them to orchestrate the massacre to eliminate all potential sources of retribution.
• Trial Proceedings: Angela Wagner and Jake Wagner were sentenced, with Angela receiving 30 years and Jake being granted the possibility of parole after 32 years. Jake cooperated with authorities, providing details on the plot, including locating the murder weapons.

Notable Quotes:

• Victim's Mother: "You are the spawn of Satan." ([15:36])
• Jake Wagner: "I am glad I got caught." ([16:18])

Legal Developments: Billy Wagner, Jake's father, faced a change of venue ruling for his trial, with the prosecution appealing the decision. The case remains a significant emotional burden for the victim's families, who continue to seek closure.

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3. Karen Reed Case: Seeking Justice in the 'Gone Girl' Scenario

Location: Massachusetts

Overview: Karen Reed, accused of killing her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by ramming her car into him after a night of drinking, is preparing for her retrial following a deadlocked jury in the initial trial.

Key Events:

• Defense Challenges: The defense contests the admissibility of Dr. Marie Russell's testimony, an expert who suggested John O'Keefe's injuries were consistent with dog bites. Prosecutors argue her opinions lack scientific basis.
• Forensic Controversies: Another forensic expert's testimony regarding a disputed Google search phrase, "to die in the cold," has been set for review in an upcoming hearing.
• Retrial Scheduling: The retrial is slated for later in the year, with significant attention on expert testimonies that could sway the jury's decision.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Marie Russell: "With all due respect, Mr. Brennan, I'm not somebody that just came in off the street. I have at least 30 years as a physician..." ([20:03]–[21:00])

Ongoing Developments: The defense's strategy revolves around challenging forensic evidence, while the prosecution seeks to solidify its case against Reed by excluding potentially biased testimonies.

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4. Real-Life 'Gone Girl': Matthew Mueller's Escalating Charges

Location: California, Bay Area

Overview: Matthew Mueller, previously convicted for the kidnapping of Denise Huskins, faces additional charges related to home invasions dating back to 2009. Advances in DNA technology have linked him to these unresolved cases.

Key Events:

• Initial Crime: In 2015, Mueller, a disbarred attorney and ex-Marine, was arrested for Denise Huskins' kidnapping after initial disbelief by authorities.
• New Charges: In 2009, two women reported home invasions where they were threatened with rape. DNA evidence has now connected Mueller to these incidents, leading to his arraignment.
• Sentencing: Mueller was previously sentenced to 40 years, with the new charges potentially extending his incarceration.

Notable Quotes:

• Andrea Canning: "Only there was a big, big difference in this case, of course." ([22:34])

Case Significance: Mueller's actions starkly contrast with the fictional narrative of 'Gone Girl,' showcasing the complexities and dangers surrounding real-life criminal enterprises.

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5. Delphi Murders: Justice Served

Location: Delphi, Indiana

Overview: In 2017, the bodies of two schoolgirls, Liberty German and Abigail Williams, were discovered near a creek in Delphi, Indiana. The suspect, Richard Allen, was convicted and sentenced for their murders.

Key Events:

• Conviction and Sentencing: Richard Allen was sentenced to 130 years in prison, a culmination of years of investigation and emotional courtroom proceedings.
• Victim Impact Statements: Relatives of the victims delivered heartfelt statements condemning Allen's actions, emphasizing the profound loss and trauma inflicted.
• Courtroom Reactions: The courtroom was charged with emotion, particularly when the judge criticized Allen's demeanor during sentencing.

Notable Quotes:

• Victim's Mother: "You ruined innocent children's lives." ([15:52])
• Judge: "The girl's murder ranks right up there with the most hideous crimes." ([15:58])

Outcome: The sentencing of Richard Allen brought a sense of closure to the victims' families and underscored the severity of the crimes committed.

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6. Jury Duty Insights: Navigating the Legal Process

Expert: Dr. Natalie Gordon, Jury Consultant and Adjunct Professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice

Overview: The episode transitions to an informative segment on jury duty, offering listeners comprehensive insights into what to expect when called to serve.

Key Points:

• Voir Dire Process: Dr. Gordon explains the jury selection process, where potential jurors are questioned to identify biases and ensure impartiality.
• Impact of Pretrial Publicity: Using the Jasmine Pace case as an example, she discusses how media coverage can influence jurors' perceptions and the challenges it poses to fair trial proceedings.
• Deliberation Dynamics: The discussion covers how juries deliberate, the importance of diverse perspectives, and the emotional toll of making life-altering decisions.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Natalie Gordon: "It's very difficult for jurors to set aside information that they have learned about a case from the media." ([26:34])
• Dr. Gordon: "Jurors can feel a lot of sympathy and even empathy for the defendant while also finding him or her guilty." ([28:30])

Practical Advice: Juror sequestration, diversity in juries, and strategies for maintaining impartiality are highlighted as critical factors in the judicial process.

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7. Upcoming Stories and Promotions

Additional Content:

• Deadly Mirage Preview: A tease for the upcoming TV episode inspired by Josh's podcast series about betrayal and murder in the California desert.
• After the Verdict: A special segment featuring Susan Altman discussing her advocacy against domestic violence and her role in the conviction of her sister's husband.
• Advertisements and Promotions: Various sponsors, including Grand Canyon University, Capital One, Progressive, and High Five Casino, are featured, promoting educational programs, travel rewards, insurance savings, and online gaming, respectively.

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Conclusion Host: Andrea Canning

Andrea Canning wraps up the episode by highlighting the intricate and often heart-wrenching nature of the cases discussed. From maternal desperation to family betrayals and the pursuit of justice, Dateline NBC continues to shed light on the darkest corners of true crime, offering listeners a comprehensive and emotionally charged exploration of each story.

Credits: Produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson, with contributions from Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, Liz Brown Kurloff, Sara Kadir, Veronica Mazeka, Rick Kwan, Jesse McGinty, Bryson Barnes, Paul Ryan, and Liz Cole.

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Stay Connected: Subscribe to Dateline Premium at DatelinePremium.com for ad-free episodes and exclusive content.

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Note: The podcast respects the privacy and sensitivity of all individuals involved and aims to present facts accurately while honoring the victims and their families.

Transcript

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[Reporter 1]

Good morning.

[Reporter 2]

Hey, I think everyone is here.

[Andrea Canning]

You're listening in to Dateline's morning meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center. Happy New Year. Happy New Year, everybody. Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country. He actually felt afraid that people were after him.

[Reporter 1]

The judge ended the day in suspense.

[Reporter 2]

They do end up finding her body.

[Andrea Canning]

And those charges are up to murder. Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's January 9th, and here's what's on our docket. In Ohio, there were tears and rage at a sentencing last week as multiple family members admitted their parts in what's been called the Pike County Massacre.

[Grayson Gordon]

It's hard for what I've done.

[Andrea Canning]

I am glad I got caught in DATELINE Roundup. Karen Reid's defense team was back in court this week talking about dogs. And we've got details on new charges filed against the man at the heart of what's been called the real life gone girl case.

[Grayson Gordon]

It's the same MO and it's a.

[Andrea Canning]

Very unusual, scary, terrifying mo. Plus, a new year could mean an unexpected summons to jury duty. A jury consultant gives us her tips on what to expect.

[Reporter 2]

Jurors can feel a lot of sympathy and even empathy for the defendant while also finding him or her guilty.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're heading to Chattanooga, Tennessee, where a highly publicized murder trial is about to get underway. And the mother of the victim has faced questions about what she did to try to find her daughter and whether she went too far. In the early morning hours of November 23, 2022, 22 year old Jasmine Pace sent her mother an unsettling Text message. There were no words, just a PIN drop sharing her location. Jasmine never came home after that. Sensing something was wrong, Jasmine's mother, Katrina and her family went into investigation mode. They went to the location of the PIN drop, a condo complex where the family forced open the door to an apartment. Katrina took several items she found there, including Jasmine's phone, license, and credit cards, and was left with a bad feeling. What was your reaction when you found those?

[Sue Simpson]

I knew it wasn't good.

[Andrea Canning]

A few days later, Jasmine's body was found stuffed in a suitcase. She'd been stabbed 60 times. Police had already zeroed in on a suspect, Jasmine's boyfriend, Jason Chen. He was charged with murder and abuse of a corpse. He has pleaded not guilty. But in the more than two year run up to Chen's trial, the unauthorized investigation by Jasmine's desperate mother has come under heavy fire from the defense. It's normal for you to break into other people's apartments. How might it all impact the trial set to begin next week? Here to bring us up to speed is Grayson Gordon, a news reporter from our NBC affiliate, WRCB Local 3 News. Grayson, welcome to the podcast.

[Reporter 1]

Thank you for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

This is such a sad story to start. Can you just tell us, Tell us about Jasmine Pace and who was she? What was she like? What have you learned about her?

[Reporter 1]

We know that she was very loved by her family. Whenever you're listening to testimony from her mother, Katrina, you can hear how close they were and how much they talked. And having that communication with her and her family, how close she was with her mother was really the way that her mother was able to know that she was not okay as quickly as her mother was able to figure that out.

[Andrea Canning]

And what do we know about Jason Chen and how they met?

[Reporter 1]

So we know that they met on a dating app a few months before she went missing. They were both college students.

[Andrea Canning]

So her mom sort of turns investigator. Right. Because, you know, it's unlike Jasmine to not check in with her mom.

[Reporter 1]

Absolutely. And, you know, you can understand a mother pleading and doing everything in her power to try to find her child. She gathers her family, and she realizes that her daughter had sent her a. Dropped her a PIN that pinned location, took them to. To Jason Chin's apartment.

[Andrea Canning]

So Jason's not there in the apartment, and they gain entry, and that's when they say they found Jasmine's phone, credit cards, and driver's license. So obviously very scary for the family to not know where their daughter is and to walk in and find that.

[Reporter 1]

So they do call the police, whenever they find this evidence, we watch body camera video. So far at these pre trial hearings, when the police go in, they spend about three minutes kind of just scanning Chen's apartment. Then they get a search warrant. And once they get the search warrant, they do find traces of blood.

[Andrea Canning]

And police also say during the search, they found blood spatter on the bathroom wall, cleaning supplies, a large amount of blood that had been cleaned up in the living room. This is a very disturbing scene.

[Reporter 1]

Absolutely.

[Andrea Canning]

Parents taking matters into their own hands. You understand that if your child is missing, you will do anything. The defense has made this a big deal.

[Reporter 1]

This is what the defense has been using. The potential tarnish of a crime scene and the way that the evidence was gathered in order to try to exclude evidence from being used in the trial. The defense's worry is that it could have potentially been planted. And that's what those pretrial hearings have been.

[Andrea Canning]

Right. And that all makes sense from a defense perspective. Katrina, the mom, was actually cross examined on the stand. What did she have to say about her actions and gaining entry to the apartment?

[Reporter 1]

It was obviously very emotional. And the defense attorney for Jason Chen, he asked her on the stand, is it normal for you to break into apartments? And Katrina said no.

[Andrea Canning]

And it's not normal for you to conduct a search like this.

[Reporter 2]

It's not normal for my daughter to be missing.

[Advertiser]

How did you know to go to apartment 2K?

[Andrea Canning]

Neighbor heard a loud, distressed woman's voice.

[Reporter 2]

And he told me, and he heard.

[Andrea Canning]

That three minutes before my daughter sent me. Oh, wow. So with regard to any alleged evidence found by the mom, did the judge rule that that will be admissible in trial?

[Reporter 1]

Yes, all evidence is gonna be allowed. We have one more pretrial hearing and one last kind of wrap up with all of the evidence that's going to be allowed in this case.

[Andrea Canning]

And we should just remind our listeners, Jason Chen has pleaded not guilty and we will learn more about his defense when the trial gets underway. This is interesting because the case has had so much media attention. Jurors are actually being brought in from another county.

[Reporter 1]

Absolutely. I, I really think the reason this has gotten so much attention is because people remember when Jasmine went missing and we were trying to find this 22 year old college student who had, you know, beautiful potential in life, who was loved by her family, loved by many, and that really has an impact on the community, especially a smaller community like Chattanooga.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, well, we will keep an eye on this one. Grayson, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

[Reporter 1]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, there was talk of Satan and Jesus in an Ohio courtroom last week as a mother and son were sentenced for their roles in one of the most gruesome crimes in Ohio history.

[Advertiser]

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[Andrea Canning]

For our next story, we're heading to an Ohio courtroom where emotions and rage bubbled over last week at the dramatic sentencing of three family members who for their roles in one of the bloodiest crimes in Ohio history, you are the spawn of saints. The horror began on the morning of April 22, 2016 when a woman walked into her brother in law's home and found him shot to death along with his cousin, his name, Chris Roden Sr. But they weren't the only members of the Rhoden family found dead that day. In total, seven adults and one 16 year old boy were found gunned down in four different locations, victims of what's been dubbed the Pike County Massacre. Two years later, police arrested six members of another family, the Wagners, after uncovering what prosecutors say was a ruthless plot to stamp out the rodents over a custody dispute. Here to catch us up on this case that he's been covering for years is Dateline producer Jay Young. Jay, thanks for joining us.

[Grayson Gordon]

Hi, Andrew. Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So the scope of this crime spree is really unlike anything a lot of us have ever seen before.

[Grayson Gordon]

Well, you have that absolutely right, Andrea. We're talking about eight murder victims, four crime scenes. It's just. It boggles the mind.

[Andrea Canning]

Jay. Police zeroed in on the Wagner family. Who are the Wagners?

[Grayson Gordon]

The Wagners are a large family that lives not too far away from the rodents. In fact, they were friends by all counts of the rodents.

[Andrea Canning]

So what went wrong?

[Grayson Gordon]

Jake Wagner had a relationship with one of the children of the rodents, Hannah May. And together they had a child, Sophia. Jake and Hannah Mae quickly became estranged. After Sophia was born, Hannah Mae moved out and took Sophia with her. Jake wasn't happy about that, nor were the Wagners happy about that. In the course of the investigation, investigators learned that the Wagners feared young Sophia was being abused by a member of the Rhoden family. Jake testified that the Wagners decided something needed to be done. They wanted Sophia back. They decided that they would not just kill the mother of Sophia, Hannah May, but they were going to kill everyone else in the family. So there were no other survivors to seek retribution.

[Andrea Canning]

Just sounds so unbelievable.

[Grayson Gordon]

It's beyond unbelievable.

[Andrea Canning]

So the Wagners alleged that the rodents were abusing Sophia, but investigators found no evidence of that.

[Grayson Gordon]

Yeah, there was really no evidence of it.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so it took more than two years for investigators to make arrests in the case. Jake Wagner, along with his parents and older brother, were charged with multiple counts, including aggravated murder. Jay, what evidence did the prosecutors say they had against them?

[Grayson Gordon]

There were multiple crime scenes, but there was very little physical evidence. But they did find foot impressions in the blood. I hate to say it. They were able to determine that the footprints were from a shoe that was sold at Walmart, and they were able to determine the size. And lo and behold, after they conducted a search warrant on the Wagner's property, they discovered a receipt for shoes from a Walmart. And they ultimately were also able to seize the Wagner's computers. And one of the interesting things they found was a screenshot of a conversation that Hannah May had with someone months before the massacre. She says, the Wagners want to take custody of my child. If they want custody, they're going to have to kill me first.

[Andrea Canning]

So we should say that. Jake's dad, Billy Wagner, has consistently denied having anything to do with the murders or any plot. He is still in custody awaiting trial. And Jake's brother also denied being a part of the plot. But he was convicted at trial in 2022. A big twist to this case. Jake and his mom Angela did something that surprised everyone. They decided to plead guilty and they started cooperating with investigators.

[Grayson Gordon]

Well, ultimately, what they were able to get from Jake Wagner is he led investigators to the location of the murder weapons on the Wagner property. That was incredibly incriminating evidence, obviously.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Grayson Gordon]

And he outlined in great detail how the massacre unfolded.

[Andrea Canning]

So take us inside the courtroom last week. Who was being sentenced?

[Grayson Gordon]

You had Angela Wagner herself and Jake Wagner.

[Andrea Canning]

Before they were sentenced, the victims families got to talk. Yeah.

[Grayson Gordon]

The mother of one of the victims gave an incredibly impassioned victim impact statement.

[Andrea Canning]

You're evil. You are the spawn of Satan's.

[Sue Simpson]

My daughter was only 2020. Greedy Jake Wagner.

[Reporter 2]

You.

[Andrea Canning]

I want you to suffer.

[Reporter 1]

I want you to die.

[Andrea Canning]

So your mom feels a heartache.

[Reporter 1]

What it's like to bury the child.

[Sue Simpson]

It's a heartache that never goes away.

[Andrea Canning]

I hate you.

[Sue Simpson]

You ruined my life.

[Reporter 2]

You ruined innocent children lives.

[Grayson Gordon]

Jake Wagner did take the opportunity to speak to the Rhoden family. He looked at them in the eye. I'm sorry for what I've done, but.

[Andrea Canning]

I am glad I got caught.

[Grayson Gordon]

I 100 believe that it was Jesus.

[Andrea Canning]

Who made me get caught. Answer my prayer.

[Grayson Gordon]

The victim's families present in the courtroom didn't want to hear any of it. In fact, they walked out as Jake was speaking.

[Andrea Canning]

What were the sentences then?

[Grayson Gordon]

Angela was sentenced to 30 years. And for many, it was a shock to hear that Jake Wagner, who everyone anticipated would receive a life sentence without the possibility of parole, suddenly was presented with the opportunity to get parole. So he'll serve 32 years and then he'll be eligible for parole.

[Andrea Canning]

So this all leaves Billy Wagner, the father. He was supposed to go to trial this week. What happened?

[Grayson Gordon]

Well, the judge has ruled in favor of a change of venue in Billy Wagner's trial. What's happening now is that the prosecution is appealing the judge's decision.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so this trial is supposed to be sometime this year.

[Grayson Gordon]

It's difficult to say. And you can just imagine how difficult this is for the victim's family. They have to endure this even longer.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, Jay Young, thank you for breaking down this extremely horrific story and also complicated story.

[Grayson Gordon]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

Next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. We've got the latest from the courtroom as Karen Reed's defense team gears up for her second trial and more on the new chapter in what's been called the real life gone girl case. Plus, what do you need to know? If you get a jury summons, we've got tips from a jury consultant.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is DATELINE producer Sue Simpson. Hey, Sue.

[Sue Simpson]

Hey, Andrea. Happy New Year.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, Happy New Year. So, sue, our first story is something very familiar to both of us, the Karen Reed case. For anyone who doesn't know, she's the Massachusetts woman accused of killing her police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by backing her car into him after a night of drinking. She denies doing that, of course, and a jury deadlocked at her trial last year that you were at, sue, every day.

[Sue Simpson]

I was. And that's right. As you know, she's headed back to trial later this year, but there's a lot of housekeeping before the retrial can even start.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. So this week there was the second part of a hearing about something pretty crucial to the case.

[Sue Simpson]

Right. Prosecutors want the judge to exclude the testimony of a defense expert who testified at the first trial. She's a retired emergency room doctor. Her name is Dr. Marie Russell. And she said that the injuries on John O'Keefe's arm were consistent with dog bites. That's critical to the defense case.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. Important, obviously, because Karen Reed's defense says that John O'Keefe wasn't run over. He was beat up by people at a house where she says she dropped him off. The people there, at the house, they deny that. But at this house, there was a dog.

[Sue Simpson]

She was a German shepherd named Chloe.

[Andrea Canning]

So how did this expert do on the stand?

[Sue Simpson]

Well, prosecutors gave her a hard time saying that her opinions are subjective, not science. And she said, Dr. Russell, you know.

[Andrea Canning]

With all due respect, Mr. Brennan, I'm not somebody that just came in off the street. I have at least 30 years as a physician, and I use that information in helping me form my opinions about wounds. I've seen all types of wounds. The judge has not ruled yet, but that could be a big deal for both sides, right? Whatever this decision is.

[Sue Simpson]

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously we'll be covering that. But another thing that happened on Tuesday is a judge set a date for a similar hearing about the forensic expert who testified about that hotly disputed Google search. It was a half long to die in the cold, as you remember, Andrew.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes.

[Sue Simpson]

Well, that hearing is now scheduled for January 31st.

[Andrea Canning]

So much going on in this case. All right, for our next story, we're headed to California, the Bay Area, where there's a new development in wild case from 2015, which we covered at Dateline. It also got a lot of attention about a year ago when Netflix put out a doc series on it.

[Sue Simpson]

That's right. Just a quick recap. In 2015, a man named Aaron Quinn told police that his girlfriend, her name is Denise Huskins, He. He said that she had been kidnapped from their home.

[Andrea Canning]

I remember this story very well. Investigators did not believe him. They thought he had killed Denise. Then, two days after she went missing, Denise Huskins walked into her parents house to say yes, she had in fact been kidnapped and raped repeatedly.

[Sue Simpson]

And police still didn't believe them. They even gave a press conferencing the whole thing was a hoax.

[Reporter 1]

Is there any evidence that makes, you know, conclusively that this was a fake? Well, I can tell you that our.

[Andrea Canning]

Investigation has concluded that none of the claims has been substantiated. And that's when people started saying this sounds a lot like the movie Gone Girl. Where the female main character fakes her own kidnapping.

[Sue Simpson]

Yeah. Only there was a big, big difference in this case, of course. A couple of months after all of this started, a man named Matthew Mueller, he's a disbarred attorney and he's an ex Marine. He was arrested and he later pleaded guilty to the kidnapping of Denise Huskins, and he was sentenced to 40 years.

[Andrea Canning]

So, sue, what is the development?

[Sue Simpson]

Last week, two new charges were brought against Matthew Mueller. In 2009, two separate women reported home invasions where they were Dr. And a man threatened to rape them. The Santa Clara District Attorney's office has announced that advances in DNA technology linked Matthew Mueller to. Yeah. To these cases. So his arraignment on these new charges is set for next week.

[Andrea Canning]

That is a big development.

[Sue Simpson]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Finally, the latest on another story. We covered a lot last year. This is the double murder of two schoolgirls, Liberty German and Abigail Williams, whose bodies were found near a creek in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017. In November, a local man, Richard Allen, was convicted of killing them. And just before Christmas, he was sentenced to. A lot of years, Sue.

[Sue Simpson]

A whole lot of years, Andrea. He was sentenced to 130 years in prison. It was an emotional courtroom. Six of the girl's relatives gave victim impact statements. The judge said the girl's murder ranks right up there with the most hideous crimes. And just before she read a sentence, the judge accused Allen of rolling his eyes at her. So it was a whole. An incredible day in court.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, yeah. To be sure. Okay. Thank you so much, sue, for joining us for this week's roundup.

[Sue Simpson]

Thank you, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

While you might have spent the first few days of 2025 thinking about all the new year has in store. Fun trips, events, new experiences, you probably haven't thought about what you might be called to do. With a new year comes new cases, new trials, and, of course, new juries. So whether or not you've received your jury summons yet, we're talking with jury consultant and adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, Dr. Natalie Gordon. Hey, Natalie.

[Reporter 2]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Thanks for being here. So some people, you know, they just don't want to be on juries. It feels like an inconvenience. I, on the other hand, want to do jury duty. You've. Natalie, talked to two jurors after trials? I have as well. What. What do they usually say after they're. They're finished with the trial?

[Reporter 2]

I can't recall ever speaking to a juror who said they did not enjoy the experience, which is why when friends Tell me, you know, they got a summons for jury duty. How do I get out of this? My response is consistently, trust me, if you get picked, you're going to be really glad that you did this.

[Andrea Canning]

So let's run through a general overview of what being on a jury looks like. Of course, this varies case to case, courthouse to courthouse. What can you expect once the actual selection of a jury begins?

[Reporter 2]

So that process is called voir dire. It's a legal term meaning to speak the truth. And during this process, the judge, the prosecuting attorney, and the defense attorney will ask questions to jurors. The first round of questions usually assesses any scheduling conflicts, and then they'll be asked about any biases they might have that prevent them from being a fair and impartial juror. And the lawyers will then have the opportunity to remove jurors from the panel after they've been questioned, which is why this process is often referred to as jury deselection rather than jury selection.

[Andrea Canning]

Earlier in the episode, we discussed the Jasmine Pace case and how the jurors are being brought in from another county because of concerns about pre trial publicity. They're also being sequestered in a hotel. So how does this pretrial publicity impact jury decision making?

[Reporter 2]

So we know from extensive research that it's very difficult for jurors to set aside information that they have learned about a case from the media. And one of the main reasons it's so hard is because they misattribute information that they hear in the media to information learned at trial. And another thing I want to mention is that while juror sequestration, for example, might serve to shield jurors from media coverage during trial and during deliberations, potentially they're still exposed to media coverage before trial even begins. So it can't fully counteract the effects of pretrial publicity on their decision making.

[Andrea Canning]

So if you are impaneled on a jury and the trial formally begins, you know, you, obviously you, you see the evidence, you hear witness testimony, and then you go off to deliberate. What can you expect in that deliberation room?

[Reporter 2]

So what I have seen in mock trial research, juries will sometimes start by taking a vote to see how the room is divided. In other instances, they might just dive right into the evidence and start discussing their thoughts on the case more broadly. And sometimes jurors will request to see copies of exhibits or transcripts of witness testimony that's been presented during trial, but that's ultimately at the judge's discretion.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, it's, I mean, A jury room, there's nothing like it because you have such a cross section of people, different opinions, different ethnicities, different ages. You know, it's, it's like that's what it's supposed to be, right? A cross section of America.

[Reporter 2]

That's right. And you actually want that variability among jurors and their backgrounds because you can have, have more thorough discussions when you have those different perspectives. But on the flip side of that, the more extreme those views can be, the more likely it can be that the jury struggles to reach a unanimous agreement.

[Andrea Canning]

If the jury's able to reach a unanimous verdict, you know, it's read aloud in court. Your jury duty is over. Have you ever spoken to jurors who have mixed feelings about the verdict that was reached?

[Reporter 2]

Yeah. What jurors are asked to do, especially in criminal cases, it can be quite heavy. They appreciate the consequences of their decision. So even if they agree that the defendant was guilty of the charges, they're not necessarily happy about it. Jurors can feel a lot of sympathy and even empathy for the defendant while also finding him or her guilty. And that dissonance can be very challenging to navigate. But jurors rely on each other for support during the decision making process and end up becoming quite friendly with each other as a result. And they express a lot of pride for, for having served and respect for the process and respect for each other.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, Natalie, wow. Thank you so much. Maybe this is my year. We'll see. I'm still waiting for my summons.

[Reporter 2]

I hope that you are so lucky. It's a great experience. Yeah.

[Reporter 1]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you for breaking it down.

[Reporter 2]

I'm happy to have helped. Thank you, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Coming up on Dateline, we've got the TV episode that inspired Josh's hit podcast series, Deadly Mirage. It's a story about betrayal and murder in the California desert and a young couple who seemed to have it all until the husband ended up dead and investigators uncovered a web of dark secrets.

[Reporter 2]

This case had sex, religion.

[Andrea Canning]

It literally had everything. Watch Josh Josh's story, Deadly Mirage, airing Friday on NBC at 9, 8 Central, or stream it on Peacock. And for Dateline Premium subscribers out there, check out our latest episode of after the Verdict. When Keith Morrison catches up with Susan Altman, a woman who pushed investigators to take a closer look at the mysterious death of her sister, resulting in the conviction of her sister's husband. Susan talks about her work trying to raise awareness around domestic violence and to get ad free listening for all of our podcasts. Subscribe to Dateline Premium. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kurloff Production and fact checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

[Reporter 1]

All right, well, thanks, Celia. Happy New Year, everyone.

[Reporter 2]

See you soon.

[Ted Danson]

Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy Live and Uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.

[Reporter 2]

You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the Sirius XM app for over 425 channels of ad, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.