A murder suspect's brother under scrutiny. Breakthrough in parents' quest for answers. And should jurors question witnesses?

Summary

Dateline NBC - Episode Summary Release Date: February 13, 2025

Host: NBC News
Episode Title: A Murder Suspect's Brother Under Scrutiny. Breakthrough in Parents' Quest for Answers. And Should Jurors Question Witnesses?

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I. International Murder Investigation: Anna Kanesevic

The episode opens with a gripping international murder investigation involving Anna Kanesevic, a Florida woman who disappeared in Spain. A year after her disappearance, significant developments have emerged:

• David Kanesevich's Arrest: Initially charged with Anna's kidnapping in May 2024, David Kanesevich's charges were elevated to murder six months later. Prosecutors allege that David tracked Anna to Madrid amidst their contentious divorce and subsequently killed her. Despite these allegations, Anna's body remains undiscovered, and search efforts in Europe have been unsuccessful. As Brian Sheehan notes, "He could potentially face the death penalty" if convicted.

• Investigation Expands to David's Family: The FBI has turned its attention to David's brother, Ugessa Kanesevic, following suspicious activities. On February 3rd, a search warrant revealed that Ugessa's laptop and phone were seized for possible involvement in aiding David, including alleged efforts to obstruct the investigation by locking David's phone with Apple. Additionally, Ugessa reportedly traveled to Sevilla, near Anna's last known location, raising further suspicions.

  "We're looking at Ugesa Kanesevic for aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact, wire and bank fraud, and destruction of records." – Alex Lar [07:06]

• Legal and Familial Implications: Despite these allegations, Ugessa has not been arrested or formally charged. His defense challenges the seizure of his devices, claiming attorney-client privilege, though prosecutors contend no data has been extracted. Furthermore, federal investigations are probing payments Ugessa made to inmates, potentially to facilitate clandestine communications with David.

• Wrongful Death Lawsuit: In response to these developments, Anna’s family has filed a wrongful death lawsuit against both David and Ugessa, citing claims of conspiracy and emotional damages due to David's refusal to release Anna's body for burial.

II. Philadelphia’s Ellen Greenberg Murder Case Breakthrough

A heart-wrenching segment covers the 14-year pursuit by Ellen Greenberg's parents to uncover the truth behind their daughter's mysterious death:

• The Tragic Night: On January 26, 2011, during a severe nor'easter in Philadelphia, 27-year-old first-grade teacher Ellen Greenberg was found dead with multiple stab wounds, including 10 to her head and neck. Her parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg, have long contested the investigation's findings.

  "There's a hole in our life. Our life is not complete." – Josh Greenberg [13:01]

• Controversial Investigation: Initially ruled a suicide by medical examiner Dr. Marlon Osborne after allegations of no forced entry and Ellen's expressed non-suicidal statements, the ruling was met with intense skepticism from Ellen's family. Experts later testified that the nature and number of stab wounds could not align with a self-inflicted act.

• Recent Developments: Just days before the scheduled civil trial, Dr. Osborne reversed his stance, acknowledging that Ellen's manner of death should be reconsidered. Consequently, the case has entered a settlement phase where an independent medical examiner will review Ellen’s death, potentially reopening the investigation.

  "Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself." – Sandy Greenberg [20:08]

• Emotional Impact: The Greenbergs remain steadfast in their belief that justice will prevail, emphasizing their unwavering dedication to uncovering the truth.

III. DATELINE Roundup

A. Eric Thompson's Trial in Hawaii

Eric Thompson stands accused of murdering his wife's former lover, Takahara, an FSU law professor and acupuncturist. In his second trial after a hung jury in the first:

• Defense Strategy: The defense emphasizes the lack of concrete evidence, including no eyewitnesses, missing murder weapon, and insufficient electronic data tying Eric to the crime scene.

  "Murdering someone would be extremely out of character." – Michael Thompson (Eric’s brother) [24:06]

• Character Testimony: Eric’s brother, Michael, testified to his brother’s peaceful nature, aiming to cast doubt on the prosecution’s narrative.

B. Dana Chandler's Third Trial in Kansas

Dana Chandler faces her third murder trial for the 2002 homicides of her ex-husband Mike Sisko and his fiancée Karen Harkness:

• Trial Dynamics: Representing herself, Dana maintains her innocence, with standby counsel appointed to assist if needed. Her previous convictions were overturned due to prosecutorial misconduct, leading to this retrial.

C. Donna Adelson’s Situation in Florida

Donna Adelson, a 75-year-old matriarch accused of orchestrating a murder-for-hire plot against her son-in-law, Dan Markell, seeks release from protective custody:

• Defense Argument: Adelson's attorneys argue that she is not a flight risk, despite her attempted one-way flight to Vietnam. They also contend her aggressive actions in custody are self-defense against inmate assaults.

D. Juror Questions in Trials

Jurors in several high-profile cases, including Jason Chen’s trial for murdering Jasmine Pace and Neema Momeni’s trial for killing Bob Lee, have posed numerous questions to witnesses during proceedings. This emerging trend has sparked discussions on its impact on trials.

IV. Interview with Judge Boyd Patterson on Juror Questions

To delve deeper into the phenomenon of jurors asking questions during trials, Host Kelly Moody interviews Judge Boyd Patterson:

• State-Level Variations: Judge Patterson explains that while 34 states and the federal system permit juror questions, some states like Minnesota, Texas, and Nebraska prohibit them. Ultimately, the decision rests with the presiding judge.

  "How does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?" – Judge Boyd Patterson [31:45]

• Courtroom Procedure: When allowed, jurors submit written questions after witness testimonies. These are reviewed for relevance and appropriateness before being addressed in court, ensuring they enhance understanding without disrupting the trial's integrity.

• Benefits and Criticisms:

  • Benefits: Increases juror engagement and understanding, analogous to a classroom setting where questions facilitate learning.
  • Criticisms: Potential for speculation if questions are denied and concerns that juror questions might undermine the prosecution's burden of proof.

• Impact on Verdicts: Judge Patterson opines that juror questions do not necessarily reduce the incidence of hung juries, as they do not alter the foundational evidence presented.

V. Upcoming Segments and Concluding Remarks

The episode wraps up with teasers for upcoming stories, including a new podcast series "Murder in the Moonlight" and a special episode featuring an interview with Susan Smith’s ex-husband, David Smith, discussing her infamous case from 30 years prior.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. She did not kill herself." – Sandy Greenberg [20:08]
• "How does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?" – Judge Boyd Patterson [31:45]
• "They're questions that people from outside the system would be curious about." – Judge Boyd Patterson [31:45]

This comprehensive episode of Dateline NBC delves into complex murder investigations, highlights breakthroughs in longstanding cases, and explores evolving courtroom dynamics, offering listeners a thorough and engaging true-crime narrative.

Transcript

[Andrea Canning]

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[Judge Boyd Patterson]

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[Andrea Canning]

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[Al Roker]

A true crime story never really ends. Even when a case is closed, the journey for those left behind is just beginning.

[Andrea Canning]

Since our DATELINE story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

[Kelly Moody]

I had no other option. I had to do something.

[Al Roker]

Catch up with families, friends and investigators on our bonus series after the Verdict. Ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage.

[Alex Lar]

It does just change your life. But speaking up for these issues helps me keep going.

[Al Roker]

To listen to after the Verdict, subscribe to DATELINE Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify [e-mail].

[Alex Lar]

Okay, I think we got everybody on. We'll get going.

[Kelly Moody]

It's the start of another workday for the DATELINE team here at 30 Rockefeller Center. Sorry, when's the try? Now our producers are catching up on breaking crime news around the country, swapping tips and story ideas. The clock starts ticking on that April 2nd. This just broke yesterday, but Andrea clagged it. Is he charged in the US or.

[Brian Sheehan]

He'S charged in Spain?

[Kelly Moody]

Okay.

[Alex Lar]

Okay.

[Kelly Moody]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's February 13th and here's what's on our docket. In Philadelphia, after a first grade teacher died under mysterious circumstances, her parents launched a 14 year quest for answers. Last week they got big news.

[Andrea Canning]

Her mother looked me in the eye and said, we haven't gone away. We're not going away.

[Kelly Moody]

In DATELINE Roundup, there's news from a Florida jail about Donna Adelson, the grandma accused of masterminding a plot to murder her son in law, FSU law professor Dan Markell. And more from the retrial of the Hawaii man accused of murdering his wife's acupuncturist ex lover.

[Brian Sheehan]

He described Eric as an easygoing guy that murdering someone would be extremely out of character.

[Kelly Moody]

Plus, for the first time on the podcast, we're joined by a judge. He tells us why he thinks jurors should be allowed to ask questions during a trial.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

There are questions that people from outside the system would be curious about how does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?

[Kelly Moody]

But before all that, new developments in an international murder investigation. After a Florida woman went missing in Spain, her husband was arrested and accused of killing her. Now the FBI is looking at his family to see if they played a role. It's been a year since anybody has heard from Anna Kanesevic, and a year since a man wearing a motorcycle helmet was caught on video spray painting over the lens of a security camera in her Madrid apartment building. Federal prosecutors say that mystery man was Anna's husband, David Kanesevich. In May, David was arrested and charged with Ana's kidnapping. Six months after that, the charges were upgraded. NBC 6 South Florida WTVJ covered the news. This takes it to a whole new level, this federal indictment accusing him of murdering his wife. If, in fact, he were convicted of that, he could potentially face the death penalty. Ana had moved from Fort Lauderdale to Spain while she and David were separating. Prosecutors say David tracked her down there and killed her. But her body has not been found. Search efforts for Ana Maria in Europe.

[Brian Sheehan]

Have turned up empty.

[Kelly Moody]

His lawyer says he's not guilty, and there's no proof Ana is even dead. But investigators in this country have been busy, too. Last week, we got our first hint that David may not be the only person in his family under scrutiny. Here to tell us more about what seems to be a widening investigation is DATELINE associate producer Alex Lar. Hey, Alex.

[Alex Lar]

Hey, Andrea.

[Kelly Moody]

Let's start at the beginning. Remind us of the FBI and the prosecutor's theory of this crime.

[Andrea Canning]

Sure.

[Alex Lar]

So Anna and David were allegedly going through a contentious divorce. They had built a successful business together over the course of their marriage, but her family has said that he didn't want to split their assets 50 50. So in December 2023, she moves to Madrid, Spain, in search of, you know, a fresh start. And in early February 2024, her friends got text messages that didn't exactly sound like her. And she misses a dinner with her friends. When Spanish authorities did a welfare check, they found no one in her apartment. But they did turn up surveillance footage of a man who, according to prosecutors, looks a lot like David Kanesevich, buying duct tape and spray paint at a hardware store close to Ana's apartment and hauling what appears to be a suitcase out of her building. And they learned he'd rented a car in Serbia, put thousands of miles on it, changed the license plates, and returned it with newly tinted windows.

[Kelly Moody]

David isn't disputing that he was in Europe, but He says that there's a really good reason why he was there.

[Alex Lar]

Yeah, he says he was in Serbia visiting his mom, who is aging and needed his help. So he stayed out there for some time. In May, when he came back to Miami, he was arrested at the airport. Her, Anna's kidnapping.

[Kelly Moody]

And then those charges were upgraded to murder, correct?

[Alex Lar]

Yeah. So sources tell me that they upgraded the charges because there was proof that Ana had a drastic change of life pattern, meaning to them that she has passed away. Movement on her Google and Spotify accounts abruptly stopped, as did the contact with her family and friends.

[Kelly Moody]

And we should say that David has pleaded not guilty. So let's get into the latest development. Who was the other member of David's family who is now in the crosshairs of investigators.

[Alex Lar]

So we've learned that the Department of Homeland Security has seized the laptop and phone of David's brother, whose name is Ugessa.

[Kelly Moody]

How is he wrapped up in this now? Where are they alleging?

[Alex Lar]

They're alleging in a search warrant they filed last month that they're looking at Ugesa Kanesevic for aiding and abetting, accessory after the fact, wire and bank fraud, and destruction of records. The warrant was unsealed by a judge in Miami last week. What's kind of a surprise is we know that the FBI spoke to him last March, but he said he was estranged from David. In the warrant, it says he told them he only spoke to David because he found out from Ana's brother that she was missing. Ugasa says that he had to ask his mother for David's phone number.

[Kelly Moody]

But according to the FBI, David's brother was the first person David called when he was arrested in May, correct?

[Alex Lar]

Right. And the FBI is saying since then the brothers have been in touch pretty often. The FBI, they have probable cause that his phone and laptop have evidence that Ugessa has pretended to be David to get Apple to lock David's phone so investigators couldn't open it. And then most recently, David's brother flew to Spain on vacation with his family. Last month he went to Sevilla, which is about a three and a half hour train trip from Madrid, which is where Ana disappeared. And they say that they don't know where he was for two days in January. So they're investigating what he's been doing electronically, but also maybe physically in an area where Spanish authorities had conducted searches for Ana.

[Kelly Moody]

Do we know if the FBI was able to get anything off of David's brother's phone and laptop?

[Alex Lar]

We don't know what the FBI has been able to look at, if anything at all. The defense challenged the seizure of the devices, writing in a motion that Ugessa is a part of the Kinesovich defense team and that the, quote, target devices contain attorney client communications and attorney work product. UGESA is not a lawyer. But because of that motion, prosecutors say they hadn't extracted any data from the devices.

[Kelly Moody]

The FBI also seems to be investigating payments that David's brother has made to inmates in the federal prison where David is being held. What's that all about?

[Alex Lar]

Yeah, so the FBI is alleging that David needs money to buy burner phones so that he can communicate with his brother without the calls being recorded.

[Kelly Moody]

Has David's brother said anything about these allegations? He hasn't been arrested or charged. Has he responded publicly at all?

[Alex Lar]

No, not that I know of. He was in attendance though, at the hearing in Miami on February 3rd where this warrant was unsealed.

[Kelly Moody]

So this warrant not only mentions David's brother, but another family member of David's. And we're talking about his mom?

[Alex Lar]

Yes. Neither David's brother or mother have been arrested or charged with anything. But in the warrant the FBI agent writes, law enforcement concludes that Ugesa and his mother disposed of evidence in this case and used Facebook to discuss doing so. So two things. After David was arrested in May, after he flew back from Serbia, his landlord sent his belongings to his parents that included his laptop. But the FBI didn't know about that until June. And when they found out, they searched his parents house and they found Facebook messages between Ugesa and his mom. A couple times he said, can you turn on his computer? And his mom said, yep, right away. And then a bit later, Ugasse messaged his mom. I'm done. The computer is empty. The FBI agent also writes software and programs are available that allow an individual to remote wipe or delete all stored data.

[Kelly Moody]

Alex, what is next in this case?

[Alex Lar]

We will just have to wait and see if there are any more arrests.

[Kelly Moody]

Okay. In the meantime, Anna's family filed a wrongful death lawsuit using some of this information that became public last week.

[Alex Lar]

Yes, they did. They are suing both David and his brother, saying that there are claims for wrongful death, fraudulent transfers, conspiracy, interference, and the tort of outrage stemming from David's year long refusal to release Anna's body for burial.

[Kelly Moody]

All right, Alex, thank you for bringing us the latest on this.

[Alex Lar]

Thanks, Andrea.

[Kelly Moody]

Coming up in Philadelphia, a new chapter in a family's 14 year quest for the truth about their daughter's mysterious death.

[Alex Lar]

Every morning we choose how to begin our day. I think about the people at home. They tune in because they are curious.

[Kelly Moody]

They care about their world and they.

[Alex Lar]

Care about each other.

[Andrea Canning]

There's always something new to learn, whether.

[Kelly Moody]

A news event or a new recipe. And when we step through the morning.

[Andrea Canning]

Together, it makes the rest of the day better.

[Alex Lar]

We come here to make the most of today. We are family. We are today.

[Al Roker]

Watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC. Now they had the final answer. Or did they? Nothing has more suspense than a DATELINE mystery. And no one wants to wait to find out what happens next. That's why everyone needs DATELINE Premium, where listening is always ad free. You get the whole story and nothing but the story. Or do you? Yes, actually you do. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or dateline premium.com it was late past midnight when they broke into the farmhouse.

[Andrea Canning]

Never in a million years would you.

[Kelly Moody]

Think that you'd see your parents house taped off by that yellow tape.

[Andrea Canning]

And they said, you remember dad up being killed?

[Al Roker]

They left behind a wall of blood and a clue that took a case of double murder on a long, strange trip.

[Andrea Canning]

She looked at me and she Murder.

[Al Roker]

In the Moonlight, a new podcast from Dateline. Listen to Murder in the moonlight for free starting Monday, February 17 or unlock new episodes right now by subscribing to DATELINE Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or.

[Kelly Moody]

Dateline premium.com On January 26, 2011, a nor'easter hit Philadelphia. Schools closed and 27 year old first grade teacher Ellen Greenberg went home early to to the apartment she shared with her fiance. Just a few hours later she was found dead with a knife four inches deep in her chest. Her parents, Josh and Sandy, were devastated.

[Al Roker]

There's a hole in our life. Our life is not complete.

[Kelly Moody]

For more than a decade, Ellen's parents have waged a battle to find out the truth about what happened the night their daughter died, even filing two lawsuits against the city of Philadelphia. All that came to an abrupt halt last week. Major development today in a couples fight for answers 14 years after their daughter's death. Brian Sheehan, a reporter at NBC10 WCAU in Philadelphia, has been following this story for years. He joins us now to tell us more. Brian, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[Andrea Canning]

Thanks for having me.

[Kelly Moody]

So why don't you just start by telling us a little bit about Ellen Greenberg. Who was she? What was she like? What, what have you learned?

[Andrea Canning]

So Ellen was the only child of Josh and Sandy Greenberg. She was beloved by her students, by her friends. Her parents describe her as someone who just had a bright, bubbly personality, Someone of a short stature. But as cliche as it is, she walked into a room and people noticed her.

[Kelly Moody]

Okay, let's fast forward now to the evening Ellen was found dead. We know from the investigation report that her fiance, Sam Goldberg, was reportedly at the gym. And when he came home, the door was bolted shut from the inside. What happened next?

[Andrea Canning]

So he claims that he starts banging on the door. He's yelling to her. He then sends her a series of text messages telling her to open up the door. And then at some point, he breaks down the door, goes into the apartment, and he sees Ellen is on the kitchen floor with. She's unresponsive at that point.

[Kelly Moody]

So he. He calls 911.

[Andrea Canning]

He calls 911, and the 911 operator says, does she have a pulse? And he goes over, and it's at that point that he tells the 911 operator that he sees a knife in her chest.

[Kelly Moody]

So this is not just one stab wound we're talking about. There are 20, including 10 to her head and her neck. And, Brian, she had some bruising as well.

[Andrea Canning]

She did. So when the medical examiner reviewed her body after her death, he did note that there were bruising on her body in various stages of healing.

[Kelly Moody]

So the medical examiner initially ruled the manner of death was homicide, but that all changed a few weeks later. What happened?

[Andrea Canning]

Reportedly, the Philadelphia police department met with members of the district attorney's office and the medical examiner in Philadelphia. And after this meeting, the manner of death was switched from a homicide to a suicide. There were no. No signs of forced entry. So there was no proof that they said that there was a homicide that took place.

[Kelly Moody]

And also, the knife only showed Ellen's DNA.

[Andrea Canning]

Correct.

[Kelly Moody]

Was there any type of note in the apartment or, you know, something she had written to a family member or friend that she was distraught or depressed or, you know, some type of indication?

[Andrea Canning]

There were questions that came up afterwards about Ellen's state of mind in the weeks leading up to her death. In fact, she spoken to her parents several weeks prior saying that she was anxious. Her parents set her up several weeks prior with a psychiatrist who noted that Ellen was dealing with anxiety. But in her notes, she actually said that she's. She's not suicidal.

[Kelly Moody]

And what about her fiance's story? Did the police look into that? You know, he says he's at the gym when this is happening. Let the doors bolted shut. Did they find anything out with that.

[Andrea Canning]

There wasn't much investigation. The security cameras show that he is down at the gym. There's no camera on the floor that we have seen of their apartment showing the actions outside of. Of the apartment. There are text messages. They have the text messages and they have the 911 call.

[Kelly Moody]

The family obviously has a very strong conviction that this was not suicide. They essentially began their own investigation into this, consulting many experts over the years. What did they find?

[Andrea Canning]

So a lot of the experts that reviewed this concluded there was no way that Ellen could have stabbed herself that many times. In fact, during a deposition, there is a forensic pathologist who reviewed Ellen's spinal tissue. In her deposition, she states that one of the stab wounds did not have any hemorrhaging. And no hemorrhaging means no pulse, which means no, Ellen could not have stabbed herself and could not have administered that wound because she was already dead.

[Kelly Moody]

Josh and Sandy Greenberg ultimately filed two civil lawsuits against Philadelphia the city. One sought to change the manner of death. The other sought damages for intentional infliction of emotional damages by city employees who conducted the investigation. This legal battle was going on for more than five years. Last week, on the eve of this civil trial, there was a big development in the case.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes. So Dr. Marlon Osborne, who is the medical examiner who originally ruled Ellen's death a homicide and then switched it to suicide. Dr. Osborne, on Friday night, two days before they were scheduled to go to trial, he writes in a legal verification that Ellen, it's matter of death, should be ruled something other than suicide.

[Kelly Moody]

And the. The city and the Greenbergs also, they reached a settlement of some sort.

[Andrea Canning]

So we went to. We. I was there in court and we. They were about to begin jury selection, and both sides, the attorneys from the city and the Greenberg's attorneys, they were going back and forth. We saw them walking down the hallway multiple times that morning. And they reached an agreement that the medical examiner in Philadelphia will review Ellen's manner of death.

[Kelly Moody]

And is this medical examiner who's reviewing the manner of death, is this a different medical examiner or the same one?

[Andrea Canning]

To our knowledge, it is going to be a different one because Dr. Marlon Osborne, the original medical examiner, he no longer practices in Pennsylvania. So it is going to be an independent investigation, a new investigation, the medical examiner's office in Philadelphia.

[Kelly Moody]

And what is happening then with the police? Is this investigation open? Are there plans to open it?

[Andrea Canning]

So that's a good question. If the medical examiner's office comes back and says, we determine Ellen's manner of death to be either undetermined or homicide that will most likely start an investigation.

[Kelly Moody]

And the Greenberg spoke to NBC10 WCAU Philadelphia after the agreement. I hope today we made Ellen proud of us.

[Andrea Canning]

Her father is a very stoic man and he broke down. They were walking through the halls of Philadelphia City hall with her picture and her mom says Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. She did not kill herself. And she turned around to her husband. Josh showed him the picture and he stopped. He put his head down and he just started to sob. They believe that they will see the day that Ellen gets justice.

[Kelly Moody]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Brian.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you. I appreciate it. It was a pleasure.

[Kelly Moody]

Up next, it's time for DATELINE roundup. We've got an update from Hawaii as the defense team for Eric Thompson, the man accused of murdering his wife's ex lover, makes its case. And Donna Adelson's latest court filing. The Florida matriarch accused of masterminding a hit for hire wants out of jail. Plus, we've seen it in a few cases this year. Jurors asking questions during murder trials. Does it got a judge to give us his take? If you're a facilities manager at a university, you know students rely on the cafeteria for breakfast, lunch, dinner and the occasional late night snack. So when a dishwasher breaks down and dirty plates pile up, the mess hall can turn messy in the blink of an eye. Enter Grainger. With over a million industrial grade products and fast delivery, the product you need now is never far away. So you can turn that dishwasher back into a lean, clean washing machine. Call click ranger.com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done.

[Al Roker]

Hey, everybody, I'm Al Roker from the TODAY Show.

[Kelly Moody]

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To subscribe, download Start today from the App Store on your Apple device Now Terms apply. Cancel anytime through Apple under profile settings.

[Andrea Canning]

Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together.

[Al Roker]

With the one and only Will Ferrell.

[Andrea Canning]

To talk about his new movie with Reese Witherspoon and a 30 year career of classic movies and memorable quotes from.

[Al Roker]

One of the funniest people on the planet.

[Andrea Canning]

You can get our conversation now for free Wherever you download your podcasts.

[Kelly Moody]

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's roundup is Dateline associate producer Kelly Moody. Hey, Kelly.

[Brian Sheehan]

Hi, Andrea. How are you?

[Kelly Moody]

Good. So you have the assignment of the year. This winter. You're in Hawaii to cover a case that we talked about a few weeks ago. On the podcast. We're talking about Eric Thompson. He is on trial for the second time for the murder of his wife's former lover in 2022. His first trial ended in a hung jury. So, Kelly, first, just remind us about this case.

[Brian Sheehan]

Eric Thompson is accused of fatally shooting his wife's lover, who was an acupuncturist by the name of Takahara. His wife, Joyce Thompson, received fertility care from Takahara.

[Kelly Moody]

So it is now week four in the trial, and we are in the defense portion. They are trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case.

[Brian Sheehan]

Yeah, definitely. From an investigation standpoint, there were no eyewitnesses to the shooting. The murder weapon wasn't ever found, and they're claiming that investigators didn't thoroughly search the area. They're also claiming that there's no electronic data, no GPS tracking data, no cell phone tying Thompson to the area at all.

[Kelly Moody]

The defense also called Eric Thompson's brother Michael to give character testimony. What did he have to say about his brother?

[Brian Sheehan]

So he described Eric as an easygoing guy.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Like, I've never seen him yell, swear, or no physical anything with Joyce that.

[Brian Sheehan]

Murdering someone would be extremely out of character.

[Andrea Canning]

He doesn't let.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Let things affect him very much.

[Brian Sheehan]

And then when asked about how his brother Eric behaved around the time of Takahara's murder, he said there really wasn't any change to make note of.

[Andrea Canning]

He was, I guess, normal. Nothing to have me suspect anything.

[Kelly Moody]

Eric has pleaded not guilty. What can we expect from the trial in the coming days?

[Brian Sheehan]

So in Eric Thompson's first trial, he did take the stand in his defense, so we're waiting to see if he'll do the same this time. And of his wife, Joyce is still by his side and has been there every single day, sitting behind him.

[Kelly Moody]

Okay, we'll be sure to check back in on that one and see what the jury decides. Up next, a defendant in a double homicide out of Kansas. And this is not her first murder trial or her second. Kelly, bring us up to speed on Dana Chandler and her third murder trial in two decades.

[Brian Sheehan]

Yeah. So Dana Chandler stands accused of the 2002 murders of her ex husband Mike Sisko and his fiancee, Karen Harkness. Dana Chandler and her ex husband had A pretty rocky relationship in the 90s. Their divorce took four years to be processed. Mike Sisko gained complete custody of the couple's two kids, and Dana Chandler had to pay child support. Prosecutors claim Chandler became jealous, full of rage, obsessed with her ex husband, ultimately leading her to commit both murders. Dana Chandler went on trial for the murders, was found guilty, sentenced to life in prison in 2012. But then in 2018, the verdict was overturned because of prosecutorial misconduct. She was retried in 2022, but that trial ended with a hung jury. Chandler has been out on bond ever since.

[Kelly Moody]

So her third murder trial began last Friday. And the big news out of the courtroom last week is that Chandler is representing herself. You will hear testimony that I have maintained my innocence throughout this proceeding. And we've learned that the court appointed standby counsel for her.

[Brian Sheehan]

Yeah. So even though Chandler waived her right to an attorney, a court order issued last Friday ensured that Chandler would at least have access to an attorney if she wants it.

[Kelly Moody]

Finally, we are off to Florida where Donna Adelson's defense attorneys are pushing for her release as she awaits her murder trial. She is the 75 year old family matriarch and fifth person charged in the murder for hire plot of her former son in law, law professor Dan Markell. Now she's in protective custody. Right, Kelly?

[Brian Sheehan]

Yeah, that's right. She claims that she's been attacked by other inmates. In a motion to be released on bond, Adelson claims an inmate actually shoved her into a bunk. And then when asked why she attacked her, the inmate replied, because you're a killer, you're an expletive killer.

[Kelly Moody]

And her defense attorney say should bond be set, she's not a flight risk. But remember, this is the woman who was arrested as she was about to board a one way flight to Vietnam. Although her lawyer argues she was going on vacation and there was no warrant for her arrest at the time. We can expect a ruling on this motion on February 27th. When Kelly can we expect her trial to begin.

[Brian Sheehan]

Her trial is currently still set to start in June of 2025.

[Kelly Moody]

Okay. So many cases to watch. Thanks Kelly, for joining us this week. Enjoy Hawaii.

[Brian Sheehan]

Thank you.

[Kelly Moody]

Will do. Before I introduce my next guest, take a listen to this.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Did Jason Chin have any observable cuts or injuries on his body? Could you determine where a murder occurred? Were you able to identify the driver of the Prius? Was this investigated further?

[Kelly Moody]

That is the voice of judge Boyd Patterson reading out juror questions to witnesses at the trial of Jason Chen. Chen was convicted last month of murdering his 22 year old girlfriend, Jasmine Pace. And the Jason Chen trial wasn't the first time we've come across jurors asking questions of witnesses in the courtroom. This year, our team noticed it at the trial of Richard Allen, the man convicted of murdering two schoolgirls in Delphi, Indiana.

[Andrea Canning]

1.

[Kelly Moody]

Once the witnesses testified, the judge turns to the jurors and say, do you have any questions? And they're good questions. More recently, jurors had lots to say. In San Francisco, where Neema Momeni was convicted of fatally stabbing Cash App co founder Bob Lee, there was quite a.

[Brian Sheehan]

Large stack of questions from jury members to Nima.

[Kelly Moody]

This made us wonder, why do we hear jurors asking questions in some trials but not others? And what are the pros and the cons? So we asked Judge Patterson to come on the podcast and share with us what he's seen in the courtroom. When juries are given the freedom to ask what's on their mind. Hi, Judge, thanks for coming on the podcast.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Thank you, Andrea. Good to be here.

[Kelly Moody]

So, as we mentioned, you allowed the juror questions in the Jason Chen trial, but, you know, most of the cases we cover don't involve jurors asking questions. Why do we see it sometimes and sometimes not?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

It's a state issue. Overwhelmingly, the majority of states do allow it. 34 states and the federal system allow it. Minnesota, Texas, and Nebraska clearly have put down decisions that do not allow jurors to ask questions.

[Kelly Moody]

Even though questions are allowed in a lot of states, a lot of judges won't use that tool. Is it always the judge that decides?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Yes, it is. The the judge is the one that makes the call.

[Kelly Moody]

So take us inside the courtroom where it is allowed. How does it work?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

What happens is the trial progresses where one side calls a witness and the other side gets to cross examine that witness. And at that point, I will ask the jurors if they have any questions for that particular witness. They write the questions down, they pass them to the bailiff, the questions come to the bench where the lawyers will talk about whether the question should or should not be asked. And if it's a question that clearly cannot be asked, I won't ask it. They ask for a defendant's prior record and it's not relevant. I just want to ask the question. If they ask if it was raining that day or if any other blood was found in any other spot than was testified to, then I'll ask the question. The witness will face the jury when answering. Then finally, the lawyers will have the Chance to redirect or recross if they feel they need to develop the testimony any further to clarify the witnesses answers.

[Kelly Moody]

For the jurors, what would you say are the biggest benefits to allowing jurors to ask questions?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Oh, there's, there's many of them. It keeps jurors more engaged in the process. I mean, think about sitting in a classroom where you can't ask questions, the students can't ask questions. How much of that are they really learning as far as the actual significant weighty reasons? I think that it's a good idea to let jurors ask questions. They make more informed decisions.

[Kelly Moody]

I can't help but feel like they're channeling their inner DATELINE correspondent when they come up with these questions.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Absolutely. They're questions that people from outside the system would be curious about. How does blood spatter tell the story? What does DNA really mean? How long can it last?

[Kelly Moody]

What are the criticisms of asking questions as you go along? Because there are places where this is not allowed. Why not?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

The concerns that have been communicated to me from lawyers that I do respect talk about how they're concerned that the ability for jurors to ask questions may lessen the state's burden that, say a prosecutor forgets to ask a question or ask in a certain way, then a juror can come back and ask the question. Another one that came up is that if a juror's question isn't asked, it might cause the juror to speculate about the withheld answer or resent their question not being asked. Maybe they think the lawyers are hiding something.

[Kelly Moody]

Judge, is it true that it can reduce hung juries?

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

I don't think so. Hung juries are possible if the jury does not have enough information for sure. Gaps in the proof, we'll call it. Allowing juries to ask questions doesn't change the proof. If the gaps were there before, they're still there at all.

[Kelly Moody]

Okay, Judge Patterson, this has been fascinating. Thank you for giving us us your insight.

[Judge Boyd Patterson]

Thank you, Andrea.

[Kelly Moody]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Next week I'll be off, but Blaine Alexander will be here to host and she has a very special guest, Keith Morrison. He'll be talking about his brand new podcast series, Murder in the Moonlight. A family was torn apart when a couple was shot to death in their quiet farmhouse on America's great plains. Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents house taped off, off the farm taped off.

[Andrea Canning]

By that yellow tape.

[Kelly Moody]

What followed was a lengthy investigation that included four suspects, spanned three states and came down to one single shiny clue. Subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Dateline premium.com to hear the first two episodes now or listen to the first two episodes free on Monday, February 17th. And coming up this Friday on Dateline. Craig Melvin has an all new two hour episode. Susan Smith made headlines 30 years ago when she let her car roll into a South Carolina lake, drowning her two young sons who were strapped inside. In a revealing and rare interview, Susan's ex husband, David Smith, sits down with Craig to talk about his heartbreak and his fight to keep her behind bars.

[Alex Lar]

Would you have been better off had.

[Andrea Canning]

The state executed her wife? For myself, yes, because I wouldn't have to be dealing with what's coming up now and in the future.

[Kelly Moody]

Watch Return to the Lake airing this Friday at 9, 8 Central on NBC or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuriloff production and fact checking helped by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production, Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. All right, thanks very much everyone. Bye.

[Al Roker]

A true crime story never really ends. Even when a case is closed. The journey for those left behind is just beginning.

[Andrea Canning]

Since our DATELINE story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

[Kelly Moody]

I had no other option. I had to do something, catch up.

[Al Roker]

With families, friends and investigators on our bonus series after the ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage.

[Alex Lar]

It does just change your life. But speaking up for these issues helps me keep going.

[Al Roker]

To listen to after the verdict, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify [e-mail].