An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Summary
Episode: An accused killer's surprising defense. A pharmacist on trial for poisoning. And a medical examiner's strategy for cracking cold cases.
Release Date: January 16, 2025

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1. Jason Chen Murder Trial

Timeframe: 00:01 – 10:47

The episode delves into the high-stakes murder trial of Jason Chen, a 24-year-old accused of killing his 22-year-old girlfriend, Jasmine Pace, two years prior. The case has garnered significant attention due to the sequestered jury, bused in from Nashville, and the extensive media coverage following Jasmine's disappearance and subsequent discovery in a suitcase.

• Prosecution's Stance:
  District Attorney Cody Wab argues that Jason is a flight risk and emphasizes the lack of bond, stating, “Based on proof presented today, the community is less safe” (04:06). The prosecution portrays Jason as the mastermind behind Jasmine's disappearance, highlighting evidence such as Jasmine's missing personal items and suspicious purchases made by Jason.

• Defense's Argument:
  The defense presents a narrative of voluntary manslaughter arising from a heated argument. They claim Jasmine attacked Jason after he was seen communicating with other women on Tinder, leading to a confrontation where Jason allegedly blacked out and inadvertently killed her. Mario Garcia, Dateline producer, notes, “They say he's guilty of killing her, but he's not guilty of killing her the way that the state has said” (07:04).

• Notable Testimonies:
  Jasmine’s mother, Katrina Pace, testifies passionately about her efforts to locate her daughter, even illegally entering Jason’s apartment to find evidence. She asserts, “You would break into an apartment to find my daughter? Yes. I was just trying to find my daughter” (09:07).

• Courtroom Dynamics:
  The prosecution's opening statement was described as “impressive” and “craftily” addressing the issue of the distraught mother's intrusion (06:20). The defense counters by questioning the prosecution's portrayal of events, suggesting alternative motives and casting doubt on the evidence presented.

2. Natalie Cochran Poisoning Trial

Timeframe: 11:04 – 19:43

Natalie Cochran, a pharmacist from Daniels, West Virginia, faces trial for allegedly poisoning her husband, Michael Cochran, with insulin. This case intertwines financial fraud and suspected foul play, creating a complex legal battle.

• Case Background:
  In September 2019, Michael Cochran died suddenly from hypoglycemia. Initially ruled as natural causes, further investigations revealed Natalie’s involvement in a multi-million dollar Ponzi scheme targeting friends and family. Natalie was convicted and sentenced to 11 years in federal prison for fraud but was later charged with her husband's murder.

• Prosecution's Approach:
  Prosecutors argue that Natalie, having orchestrated a significant fraud scheme, poisoned Michael to prevent him from exposing her deceit. Jay Young explains, “Natalie is a pharmacist. She knows about medications and drugs. She knew the impact insulin would make” (18:03).

• Defense's Counter:
  The defense contends that Michael was fully aware of the fraudulent activities, negating any motive for murder. They depict Michael as the one responsible for the illicit financial maneuvers, thereby absolving Natalie of the intent to kill.

• Forensic Evidence:
  Initially, no insulin was found in Michael's body during exhumation. However, a subsequent examination in 2023 by an endocrinologist suggested insulin injections as the likely cause of death, shifting the charge to homicide.

• Courtroom Observations:
  The trial features solemn proceedings with careful jury selection. Prospective jurors exhibited understanding despite the lack of direct evidence, focusing instead on circumstantial elements and Natalie’s prior convictions.

3. Alec Baldwin’s Lawsuit Against Prosecutors

Timeframe: 20:07 – 22:46

Alec Baldwin has initiated a 773-page civil lawsuit against several members of the prosecution team involved in the Rust movie set shooting case. Baldwin alleges malicious prosecution and violation of his civil rights, claiming that prosecutors acted with ill motives to "harass or humble him."

• Incident Recap:
  In 2021, Baldwin accidentally discharged a prop gun on the set of "Rust," resulting in the death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins. Initially charged with involuntary manslaughter, the case was dismissed when a judge found that prosecutors had withheld critical evidence from Baldwin's defense team.

• Legal Action:
  Baldwin’s lawsuit seeks damages and a jury trial, challenging the integrity of the prosecution's conduct. Prosecutor Carrie Morrissey responded by stating, “We look forward to our day in court” (22:32), indicating readiness to defend their actions.

4. Lori Valo Debel (“Mommy Doomsday”) Represents Herself

Timeframe: 22:46 – 24:16

Lori Valo Debel, infamously known as "Mommy Doomsday" for her involvement in the tragic deaths of her children and ex-spouse, has reappeared in court to face new murder charges in Arizona. Notably, Lori is representing herself, adding a dramatic twist to the proceedings.

• Background:
  Lori was previously sentenced to life in prison for the murders of her two children, JJ and Tylee, and her husband, Tammy Daybell. The current trial involves charges related to the murder of her fourth husband, Charles Ballo, and the attempted murder of her niece’s ex-husband.

• Courtroom Behavior:
  Lori's representation of herself is marked by defiance and confrontational tactics. She challenged the judge on procedural matters, such as the relevance of her extradition documents to the current charges, ultimately leading to the denial of her motions.

5. Slender Man Case Update

Timeframe: 24:16 – 25:50

The podcast provides an update on the notorious Slender Man stabbing case from Wisconsin, where two 12-year-olds, Anissa Wire and Morgan Geyser, attempted to murder their friend, Peyton Lightner, to become servants of the fictional character Slender Man.

• Legal Developments:
  Morgan Geyser is set to be released following significant progress in her psychiatric evaluations, despite the severe nature of her initial conviction. Her attorney expressed emotional support for the decision, while Peyton Lightner’s mother remains opposed to her release.

• Community Impact:
  The case continues to evoke strong emotions, highlighting the challenges of juvenile justice and the psychological factors influencing such extreme actions.

6. Medical Examiner’s Strategy in Cold Cases

Timeframe: 25:52 – 29:51

The episode concludes with insights from Dr. Mary Jambelek, former Chief Medical Examiner of Onondaga County, New York, on the complexities of determining causes of death in cold cases.

• Forensic Challenges:
  Dr. Jambelek explains the meticulous process required to analyze decaying or skeletonized remains, noting that certain injuries leave lasting marks on bones that can be detected even decades later. She emphasizes the importance of context and the evolution of forensic technology in solving cold cases.

• Poisoning Cases:
  In scenarios involving poisoning, such as the Natalie Cochran trial, the presence of toxins like insulin becomes harder to confirm as the body decomposes. Dr. Jambelek highlights the necessity of having suspicions beforehand to guide the forensic investigations effectively.

• Case Application:
  The discussion ties back to Natalie Cochran’s case, illustrating how exhumations and advanced testing can shift the understanding of a death from natural causes to homicide, underscoring the pivotal role of medical examiners in the justice system.

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Conclusion:
This episode of Dateline NBC offers a comprehensive exploration of multiple high-profile true-crime cases, each underscored by complex legal battles and the intricate interplay between evidence, motive, and forensic science. Notable quotes from key participants provide depth and personal perspectives, enhancing the narrative's engagement and authenticity for listeners.

Transcript

[Josh Mankiewicz]

A true crime story never really ends. Even when a case is closed. The journey for those left behind is just beginning. Since our DATELINE story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

[Andrea Canning]

I had no other option. I had to do something, catch up.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

With families, friends and investigators on our bonus series after the Verdict. Ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage.

[Andrea Canning]

It does just change your life. But speaking up for these issues helps me keep going.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

To listen to after the Verdict, subscribe to DATELINE Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or@dateline premium.com they called it the happiest place on the high desert, home to a tight knit group of 30 somethings who like to party.

[Mario Garcia]

It starts as a Playboy Channel fantasy, but this is real life where passion.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Leads to murder and a killer seeks God's help with the COVID up. I'm Josh Mankiewicz and this is Deadly, an all new podcast from dateline. All episodes are available now. To listen ad free subscribe to DATELINE Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Dateline premium.com.

[Katrina Pace]

Good morning.

[Andrea Canning]

You're listening in to Dateline's Morning Meeting in 30 Rockefeller Center.

[Natalie Cochran]

Also text got released.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Tex McIver, he's freeze out.

[Mario Garcia]

It's over.

[Andrea Canning]

Our editorial team is catching up on breaking crime news around the country.

[Katrina Pace]

And she got about a six month.

[Natalie Cochran]

Million dollar payout from the perpetrators.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

What was Scott's motive?

[Katrina Pace]

Karen, read that dog bite testimony.

[Andrea Canning]

It's in. Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's January 16th and here's what's on our docket. In West Virginia, a small town pharmacist who made national headlines after being convicted of masterminding a multi million dollar scam is back in court for allegedly poisoning her husband.

[Jay Young]

The theory is that Natalie was concerned that Michael had discovered the Ponzi scheme and was going to come forward and.

[Andrea Canning]

Expose her in DATELINE Roundup. All the details from Alec Baldwin's explosive lawsuit against New Mexico prosecutors and investigators involved in the Rust trial. And Lori Valo Debel, AKA Mommy Doomsday is back in court, this time defending herself. These are serious charges and these are serious consequences for these, Char. Plus, a former medical examiner tells us how hard it really is to get a cause of death from a body, especially a skeleton.

[Natalie Cochran]

It's the same when you have a dead body one day or 100 years dead. You need to know the context.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're heading back to a Tennessee courtroom and a story we first told you about last week. 24 year old Jason Chen is on trial, accused of stabbing his girlfriend to death two years ago. Only now his defense team is saying she attacked him. This week we heard opening statements in a Chattanooga courtroom for Jason Chen's murder trial. He's accused of killing 22 year old Jasmine Pace. But the jury is from somewhere else. They've been bused in from Nashville and it's a two hour trip. They are sequestered for this trial. All of that is because when Jasmine went missing over Thanksgiving in 2022, her face was all over TV, including on our affiliate WRCB Local 3. Now take another good hard look at your screen. Jasmine is about 5ft tall. She has several tattoos on her right arm and shoulder. Anyone with information on where Jasmine may be is asked to call the Chattanooga police Department. Jasmine's body was found about a week later in a suitcase on the side of the road. By then, her boyfriend Jason had already been arrested and his face was all over the news, too. But it felt like only the prosecution's case was getting airtime. District Attorney Cody Wab argued for no bond, calling him a flight risk. And anywhere this defendant goes, we know.

[Katrina Pace]

Based on proof presented today, the community is less safe.

[Andrea Canning]

Jason Chen has pleaded not guilty to charges of first degree murder and abuse of a corpse. And on Monday, the jury and Jasmine's mother, who was the first to point the finger at Jason, heard his side of the story for the first time. It was laid out during the defense's opening statement. Dateline producer Mario Garcia was there. Mario, thanks for coming on.

[Mario Garcia]

Thanks for having me, Andrew.

[Andrea Canning]

We talked on the podcast last week about this case. Remind us of the prosecution's argument.

[Mario Garcia]

The prosecution's argument is that Jasmine disappeared the night that she went to her boyfriend's house, was never heard from again, and her boyfriend, the person she was seeing at the time, was involved.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, so there were signs they had gotten in a loud fight. You know, late at night at his apartment, her neighbors heard a woman screaming. And then she drops a pin to her mom on her phone.

[Mario Garcia]

Yeah, her mom didn't see it until a couple days later. And frantic family members had already gone down the road of trying to kind of self investigate the case because they felt that police weren't helping them as much as they wanted.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, investigators weren't even the first people in Jason's apartment. Her mom, Katrina, goes to the location and starts, as you said, playing detective.

[Mario Garcia]

This family got into the apartment maybe illegally, maybe not. What Katrina said on the stand is Jasmine's father, Travis Pace, used the credit card to actually Jimmy Opened the door and then they went in.

[Andrea Canning]

I didn't think that actually worked. And she found Jasmine's driver's license, credit card. You know, she took some things from the apartment, including his phone.

[Mario Garcia]

She took iPad, she took notebooks. This is not the way things usually happen.

[Andrea Canning]

Was the prosecutor's opening statement what you expected? Were there any surprises? What do you think the tone was that they wanted to set for the jury?

[Mario Garcia]

The prosecutors came out of the gate in a way that I have not really ever seen before. It was. It was impressive.

[Natalie Cochran]

This is the suitcase in which Jason.

[Andrea Canning]

Chin stuffed the 98 pound body of jasmine.

[Katrina Pace]

That's where I'm going to begin the.

[Andrea Canning]

Story the district attorney wanted to get in front of the issue of mom breaking into Jason's apartment. You know, we got to just address the elephant in the room right away.

[Mario Garcia]

Yeah, I mean, they very craftily said, this is a distraught mother and family that did what anybody else would do.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense, they had an opening statement that I did not see coming.

[Mario Garcia]

Well, you're not the only one, Andrew.

[Andrea Canning]

In the early morning hours of November.

[Mario Garcia]

23, 2022, Jason Chen killed Jasmine Pace. They said he's guilty of killing her, but he's not guilty of killing her the way that the state has said.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

He didn't do it with premeditation.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense is saying voluntary manslaughter, a state of passion produced by provocation. What does the defense say happen?

[Mario Garcia]

They said they were dating in a relationship. She came over and they did what they always do. They had some wine, they smoked some weed. And then they say that his phone was in the kitchen, he was in the bedroom. His phone started making that unique pinging that Tinder sounds make. She saw that he was communicating with other women on Tinder. She got really upset. A glass and a wine bottle got broken. She came at him and he was trying to defend himself. And then he blacked out. And when he came to, she was dead. And then he panicked more and he disposed of the body.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense also indicated that Chen was worried about the shame that he would bring to his family. Jason Chen is a first generation Chinese American.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

His parents worked at a Chinese restaurant.

[Mario Garcia]

Very bargaining well. You know, he is the son of immigrants and so am I. You know, there are things that happen in personal psychologies that can make somebody act in certain ways. Is that what happened here? I don't know.

[Andrea Canning]

Jason decides that he has to cover the sun.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

He has to hide what he's done.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. The prosecution's first witness was Katrina, Jasmine's mom. How was she handled by the prosecution and the defense?

[Mario Garcia]

She got up there and she held her own. She was very stern and strong and answered the questions.

[Katrina Pace]

And then what'd you do?

[Natalie Cochran]

I went back in for support.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

For what?

[Natalie Cochran]

She gets whatever, anything that I thought I could use to help find my daughter.

[Mario Garcia]

The defense tried to trip her up. You said the two of you or the four of you, how many was it that went in who actually used the credit card to break into the apartment?

[Andrea Canning]

You said you would do anything to bite your daughter.

[Natalie Cochran]

Wouldn't you? Of course.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay.

[Natalie Cochran]

You would break into an apartment to pop my daughter? Yes. I was just trying to find my daughter.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You perjured yourself?

[Natalie Cochran]

I found I hadn't perjured myself.

[Andrea Canning]

After Katrina's testimony, who else did the prosecution call?

[Mario Garcia]

They called the manager of the Walgreens. They called the manager of the Walmart places that Jason went to buy things that the prosecution says were used to cover up the crime. The law enforcement folks, the lead detective.

[Andrea Canning]

One of the things that you're learning in Tennessee is that these jurors are able to ask questions as the trial goes along.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Does the jury have any questions for investigation?

[Mario Garcia]

They have been submitting questions. And then the judge calls the prosecutors and defense attorneys up. They go over what's going to be allowed, and the judge then asks the questions of the witness before they leave the stand.

[Jay Young]

The receipt from Walmart shows the sterile. The video shows no asparagus was purchased.

[Andrea Canning]

Was this investigated further and if so.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Relevant to the case?

[Mario Garcia]

It did not have relevancy in terms.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Of the arrested investigation.

[Mario Garcia]

You don't usually get to see what the jury is thinking in real time.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, normally you're just kind of looking for facial expressions, emotion, you know, anything.

[Mario Garcia]

You can sleeping who's taking notes, but, you know, and the judge keeps thanking them for being such a plugged in jury. It's really fascinating.

[Andrea Canning]

All right, this is a tough one. Mario, thank you for coming back on the podcast and breaking it all down for us.

[Mario Garcia]

I'm happy to be here anytime you all want me to be.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, the long awaited trial of a West Virginia pharmacist accused of poisoning her husband with insulin gets underway. We've got the latest from inside the courtroom.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hey, guys, Willie Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with the one and only Mariska Hargitay to talk about 26 seasons as captain Olivia Benson on the iconic series Law and Special Victims Unit. And the show's impact well beyond the television set. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts. Hey everybody. I'm Al Roker from the Today Show. I am so excited to kickstart the new year with help from our all new Start Today app. It has everything you need for your wellness journey all in one place, fitness challenges for all levels, meal plans that are easy and delicious and so much more. It's built to fit your lifestyle and our experts will guide you every step of the way. Come on, let's do this. To subscribe, download Start Today from the.

[Jay Young]

App Store on your Apple device now.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Terms apply. Cancel anytime through Apple under profile settings. They were sweet little old ladies, Helen and Olga. Their mission, to get homeless men off the street. And then one day, tragedy. Are we telling you this? Well, we've covered many plots over the years, but nothing quite like this. I'm Keith Morrison. Think you've heard every DATELINE story? Think again. Listen to the thing about Helen and Olga and a dozen other riveting series when you follow the DATELINE Originals podcast.

[Andrea Canning]

For our next story, we're heading back to West Virginia for a trial many years in the making. We talked about this story on the podcast last fall. It's a complicated case where one crime, fraud to the tune of two and a half million dollars, allegedly turned into another murder. In September 2019, Natalie Cochran, a pharmacist from the small town of Daniels, West Virginia, was indicted on multiple counts of fraud. The charges came just months after her husband Michael, died suddenly. The victims of the scam were primarily friends and family who thought they were investing in the Cochrans business. Natalie pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 11 years in federal prison. That wasn't the end of the story. Just two years later, Natalie was charged with a new crime, her husband's murder. Prosecutors said Natalie poisoned Michael with a vial of insulin. She has pleaded not guilty. And this week, after several delays, including multiple exhumations of Michael's body, the trial finally began. DATELINE producer Jay Young was in West Virginia this week and called us from the courthouse to tell us about what went down. Jay, thanks for joining us again this week.

[Jay Young]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So to start, can you just quickly remind us of the circumstances of Michael's death?

[Jay Young]

Let me take you back to February of 2019. Michael Cochran suddenly becomes ill. He collapses at his home, and from all accounts, he is having a seizure. Ultimately, they get Michael to a hospital. Michael is subjected to a battery of tests. They are able to determine that he is hypoglycemic, which means his Blood sugar levels are very low, dangerously low. And then five days later, after he is sent to a hospice, he tragically dies.

[Andrea Canning]

And the state medical examiner's office, they rule it natural causes at the time.

[Jay Young]

Yeah, the medical examiner ruled the cause of death was natural.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay. But investigators weren't totally buying that ruling, and they began to suspect that there could be some foul play here with Michael.

[Jay Young]

People start to scratch their heads a little bit about Michael's death. Michael was 38 years old, and he was in pretty good shape. And unrelated to Michael's death, investigators are getting wind of some problems that are associated with Michael and Natalie's business. Investors are starting to complain a little bit, wondering what's happening to their investments. And so authorities, they start looking into this business, and then ultimately get a search warrant to search Michael and Natalie's house. And what they find was a vial of insulin in the kitchen refrigerator. And ultimately, investigators come up with a theory. Natalie poisoned Michael with insulin. Natalie was concerned that Michael had discovered that the company was actually a fraud, was a Ponzi scheme. And Natalie was concerned Michael was going to come forward and expose her.

[Andrea Canning]

And was it. Is it 100% proven that he died from insulin?

[Jay Young]

They were unable to find insulin in Michael's body when they exhumed it months later. Cut to 2023. The prosecution decides they want to exhume Michael's body again to test his remains with more sophisticated tests. And this time, the pathologist that the state hired to examine the remains ruled that Michael's manner of death was homicide. Now, the state went even further and had an endocrinologist review some of the paperwork, and she determined that the cause of death was most likely due to insulin injections. So there was no trace evidence of insulin.

[Andrea Canning]

This case, as we said, has been going on for a long time. Jury selection was hotly anticipated. You were there, Jay, in the courtroom.

[Jay Young]

You know, Andrea, you've been through this so many times. I have, too. It's a very solemn occasion. Everybody's very quiet. Everyone is really deferential. The prospective jurors were sitting in the jury box. And then the prosecution enters, sits down at their desk, and then in comes Natalie Cochran. And you can see Natalie looking over at the prospective jurors. You can only wonder what's going through her mind.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, you're certainly trying to win over some very important strangers in your life. And there's something really interesting that the prosecutor pointed out that we've heard about before. You know, this CSI effect with jurors that they need DNA they need video or witnesses. In this case, the prosecutor warned them that there's almost no direct evidence.

[Jay Young]

Yep, that's exactly what the prosecution said. And by and large, the prospective jurors said, no, I'm okay. I understand that you have direct evidence and you have circumstantial evidence. And one is not more important than the other. That was the general consensus on the part of the prospective panel.

[Andrea Canning]

So opening statements began on Wednesday morning. It may be no surprise the prosecution hit hard on what they say was Natalie's motive.

[Jay Young]

As many deceptions and lies as were told to her victims of the Ponzi scheme. Michael Cochran was told justice man he did not know what was going on, but he was determined to find out. There's no question that the prosecution has to work with a case that does not have direct evidence. But what they do have is a defendant who is a convicted felon serving 11 years. And if she can defraud her family, loved ones, investors, there's no telling what she can do. That's going to be their argument. This defendant is a pharmacist. She knows about medications and drugs. She knew the impact insulin would make.

[Andrea Canning]

The defense told a very different story in their opening statement. He was involved in a Ponzi scheme. He knew about multi million dollar purchases.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

The toys, the houses, trips to Paris, trips to Hawaii, expensive, lavish lifestyle. And you have to ask yourself at.

[Andrea Canning]

The end of the case, he didn't.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Know about it really.

[Jay Young]

They argue Michael was well aware of the fraudulent nature of the business, so Natalie would have no reason to want to kill him.

[Andrea Canning]

Jay, thank you for staying on this and for bringing us this key information in this all around sad case.

[Jay Young]

Well, thank you for having me, Andrea. Really appreciate it.

[Andrea Canning]

Next it's Dateline roundup and Alec Baldwin is on the offensive with his blockbuster lawsuit against the prosecutor who charged him in the Rust movie set shooting death. And Lori Valo Debel appears in court as her own defense attorney. How did she do? Plus, a veteran medical examiner on the challenge of cold case autopsies.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Now, they had the final answer. Or did they? Nothing has more suspense than a Dateline. And no one wants to wait to find out what happens next. That's why everyone needs Dateline Premium, where listening is always ad free. You get the whole story and nothing but the story. Or do you? Yes, actually you do. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Dateline premium.com.

[Andrea Canning]

Joining me for this week's round is Dateline producer Rachel White. Hey, Rachel.

[Katrina Pace]

Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so first up, we're off to New Mexico, where actor Alec Baldwin has filed a lawsuit against a whole lot of people involved in the criminal case brought against him in connection to the shooting on his Rust movie back in 2021. Rachel, for anyone who doesn't know this story, and I think most of America does, just remind everyone what happened.

[Katrina Pace]

Sure. So Baldwin was holding a prop gun, rehearsing for a scene, when somehow the gun fired and it happened to contain live ammo. And that bullet killed the film's cinematographer, Helena Hutchins. In 2024, Baldwin ended up standing trial on charges of involuntary manslaughter.

[Andrea Canning]

Right. And I remember we covered this trial, of course, on the podcast, and there was this dramatic moment when everything just stopped. And the judge ordered the jury to go home so she could investigate claims that the prosecution had deliberately withheld evidence from Baldwin's defense team.

[Katrina Pace]

That's right. And the prosecution said that the evidence was unimportant, but the judge found otherwise and dismissed the case with prejudice.

[Natalie Cochran]

If this conduct does not rise to the level of bad faith, it certainly comes so near to bad faith as to show signs of scorching prejudice.

[Andrea Canning]

Some people would just walk away, you know, after getting off of something like this, but not Alec Baldwin. He's taken action.

[Katrina Pace]

Yeah. Last week he filed a 773 page civil lawsuit against several members of the prosecution team, accusing them of conspiring to cause his, quote, malicious prosecution and violating his civil rights. He says the defendants were driven by ill motives, including to, quote, harass or humble him.

[Andrea Canning]

Baldwin has asked for damages and a jury trial.

[Katrina Pace]

Right, and we should just quickly note here that the defendants have yet to file a response in court. But one of the prosecutors, Carrie Morrissey, told NBC news that they look forward to their day in court.

[Andrea Canning]

We will keep you posted on that one. Lori Valo Debel. So called Mommy Doomsday. There is news about her. She's back in court, and this time she's representing herself. Do you want me to stand, your honor, or can I just sit here? You can sit there.

[Katrina Pace]

Yeah. And it was really something to watch. If you remember, back in 2023, Daybell was sentenced to life in prison for the murders of her two children, JJ and Tylee, and for her involvement in the death of Tammy Daybell, who was her husband's wife. So that meant that she was arguing her case before the judge, but she was wearing an orange jumpsuit and handcuffs while doing so.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And why is she back in court?

[Katrina Pace]

So these court proceedings are for murder charges that she's facing in Arizona. So she's charged with the murder of her fourth husband, a man named Charles Ballo, and for the attempted murder of the ex husband of her niece.

[Andrea Canning]

I'm so curious. How did she do representing herself?

[Katrina Pace]

Well, she was definitely confident.

[Andrea Canning]

The state has continued to impede the defense from conducting a defense.

[Katrina Pace]

She claimed prosecutors might be withholding evidence.

[Andrea Canning]

This is a violation of the 14th Amendment of our great constitution and the defense's due process rights.

[Katrina Pace]

And she asked for all the discovery related to her extradition from Idaho to Arizona.

[Andrea Canning]

How was her request received by the judge?

[Katrina Pace]

The judge was pretty firm with Lori, asking her why her extradition documents have anything to do with the underlying charges against her in Arizona. And he ultimately denied this motion.

[Andrea Canning]

Finally, we have an update in a disturbing story out of Wisconsin known as the Slender man case. Some people may remember this story from 2014. Two tweens stabbed their friend 19 times. Rachel.

[Katrina Pace]

That's right. They were only 12 years old when they lured their friend Peyton Lightner into the woods and attacked her. Lightner just barely survived, and she was able to tell investigators that her friends, Anissa Wire, Morgan Geyser, had tried to stab her to death.

[Andrea Canning]

Investigators caught up with her attackers, and they admitted what they'd done. But they had a bizarre reason.

[Katrina Pace]

They told investigators they were trying to become servants of Slenderman. And Slenderman apparently is a fictional character that's become somewhat of an urban legend. They allegedly learned about this character on a horror story website.

[Andrea Canning]

So disturbing, both Geyser and Weier were sent to psychiatric centers after pleading guilty to intentional homicide charges. Weiher was granted supervised release in 2021. And the big news now is that Geyser is going to be released as well.

[Katrina Pace]

That's right. In last week's hearing, psychologists who have been working with Geyser testified about the significant progress made. Even Geyser's attorney was emotional after the ruling.

[Mario Garcia]

I think she'll be.

[Natalie Cochran]

She's got a lot of talents.

[Andrea Canning]

I think she's gonna be a good.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Person in the community.

[Mario Garcia]

I think she's gonna thrive.

[Andrea Canning]

Has Peyton Lightner or her family said anything about Geyser's release?

[Katrina Pace]

Peyton Lightner's mother listened in on last week's hearing and has opposed Geyser several attempts to be released.

[Andrea Canning]

Rachel, thank you so much for these updates.

[Katrina Pace]

Thank you for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

After learning more this week about the trial of West Virginia pharmacist Natalie Cochran, accused of poisoning her husband, we got curious about the make or break rule medical examiners can play in cold cases and how difficult it can be trying to figure out someone's cause of death years, sometimes decades after they've died. So for our final story this week, we asked Dr. Mary Jambelek, the former chief medical examiner of Onondaga county in New York, who has conducted thousands of autopsies in her 25 year career, to give us the basics. Mary, thank you so much for joining us again.

[Natalie Cochran]

Hello, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

So, Mary, what is the first thing you do when you are asked to look into the case of someone who's been dead for a while?

[Natalie Cochran]

Well, as in any case that we evaluate as medical examiners, we consider the scene investigation along with whatever evidence we have, the body or whatever is left of the body, maybe photos we're taking. The medical examiner will consider all of that in its totality. Just like if you go into a doctor's office and you say, just figure out what's wrong with me. It's the same when you have a dead body one day or 100 years dead. You need to know the context.

[Andrea Canning]

If you're looking at human remains, can you tell if someone has been shot or stabbed or strangled at that point, how hard is it?

[Natalie Cochran]

You have to learn how to interpret the decaying body as well as the skeletonized body, because a gunshot wound, a stab one, they may leave marks on the bone that you can detect and they'll be present for many, many decades. There have been evaluations of, you know, mummies in terms of how did they die. The bones carry a lot of information.

[Andrea Canning]

And if someone is poisoned, can the remains still carry some of that poison or is it too late?

[Natalie Cochran]

Certainly the remains can carry the poison, but it depends on the poison. There are so many drugs and chemicals and toxins in the world. So I think the first thing with a poisoning is you have to have a suspicion of it so that you're making sure you look for the category of poison that you're suspicious about. Now, that being said, as the body decays, so does the blood, so do chemicals in the body. And so it becomes harder to test for those.

[Andrea Canning]

We were just talking on the podcast about the trial of Natalie Cochran. She's accused of fatally poisoning her husband Michael with insulin. Back in 2019, the state medical examiner's office initially ruled that Michael died from natural causes. The prosecutor went up against that ruling by the medical examiner.

[Natalie Cochran]

Well, certainly, I mean, I've been on multiple sides of that particular dilemma where my ruling may be questioned and maybe the police and I don't agree, but the medical examiner may have a reason for that determination or may not have considered the insulin overdose because it's a very subtle thing.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And in the Natalie Cochran case, prosecutors exhumed her husband's body to run forensic tests. There must be a lot of thought that goes into that decision. How common is it for cold cases to involve exhumations?

[Natalie Cochran]

I don't think exhumations are that easy to occur, especially legally. There has to be a certain burden of proof of the need to do it to further the case. But I've been involved in those court ordered exhumations and sometimes if there is trauma to the skeleton, then it's very worthwhile because you can show that and document that and you can show the absence of that if, if that's important as well. But I always say that it isn't so much that you can't kill someone without leaving a trace. You can. What's really hard to get rid of is your motive. And so do you have a motive to kill someone and someone suspects that, then forensics is there to figure it out.

[Andrea Canning]

Mary Jambelic, thank you so much for coming back.

[Natalie Cochran]

Thank you very much, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. Next week we'll have tips from NBC's Senior Consumer Investigative correspondent Vicky Wynn on how to avoid disaster related scams. Whether you're looking for help or trying to give it, we'll tell you what to watch out for. And coming up this Friday on dateline, Keith Morrison has a brand new story. After a wealthy Georgia man's body is found on his sprawling estate, investigators uncover a trove of family secrets and unmask a killer in some shape or form.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Gary had close ties or or disagreements.

[Jay Young]

With all the family members relating to money.

[Andrea Canning]

Watch Keith's story, a little patch of Perfect airing this Friday on NBC at 9, 8 Central. Or stream it Saturday on Peacock. And if you're looking for Deadly Mirage, Josh's story, which was supposed to air last Friday but got preempted by our coverage of the wildfires in LA. You can see it this Sunday on NBC at 9, 8 Central. To get ad free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to DATELINE Premium. Thanks for listening. DATELINE True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Kuroloff production and fact checking helped by Sara Khadir. Veronica Mazeka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes as head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Have a great day, everybody, and everyone be careful. Bye.