Emotional testimony from a killer. A murder defendant's unusual defense. And travel scam safety tips.

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Summary
Episode Title: Emotional Testimony from a Killer. A Murder Defendant's Unusual Defense. And Travel Scam Safety Tips
Host: Andrea Canning, NBC News
Release Date: March 6, 2025

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1. Main Story: The Trial of Dana Chandler

Overview:
Dana Chandler is on trial for the third time, facing charges of murdering her ex-husband and his girlfriend 23 years ago. In a surprising move, Chandler has chosen to represent herself, leading to dramatic courtroom developments and extending the trial beyond its original three-week schedule.

Key Developments:

• Self-Representation:
  Chandler's decision to represent herself has introduced unforeseen complexities to the trial. This choice has resulted in her cross-examining her own children and presenting personal testimonies, which has both captivated and puzzled the courtroom.

  Quote:
  Dana Chandler: "My name is Dana Chandler. I, as everyone knows, have been accused of double homicide and I am innocent."
  Timestamp: [14:15]

• Emotional Defense Tactics:
  Chandler has employed highly emotional arguments, especially when addressing the jury about her personal struggles and lack of direct evidence linking her to the crimes.

  Quote:
  Dana Chandler: "I am under so pressured right now, and I'm having a depression, difficult time proceeding. I'm living as quickly and as efficiently as I can, but I do need for the court to give me some space and quit putting me under such inordinate amount of pressure."
  Timestamp: [15:36]

• Calling a Defense Witness:
  In a notable twist, Chandler called John Silver, the lead detective from her initial investigation, as a defense witness. This strategic move aims to challenge the prosecution's narrative and highlight the absence of concrete evidence.

  Quote:
  Dana Chandler: "Were there my fingerprints in the house? No. Were there any of my hair in the house? No. Was there any DNA in the house? No."
  Timestamp: [17:24]

• Lack of Direct Evidence:
  The defense emphasizes the absence of physical evidence tying Chandler to the crime scene, attempting to create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury.

  Quote:
  Marianne O'Donnell (Dateline Producer): "The clearest argument is that they really do not have physical evidence tying her to these murders. They really don't even have any kind of direct evidence."
  Timestamp: [16:49]

• Prosecutor's Challenge:
  The prosecution has been actively undermining Chandler's credibility by highlighting inconsistencies in her testimonies and questioning her reliability as a self-represented defendant.

  Quote:
  Prosecutor (implied): "Are you saying your daughter, Are you saying your son misspoke or lied when they said you did this back in the day?"
  Timestamp: [19:20]

Trial Dynamics:

Marianne O'Donnell, Dateline producer, provides an on-the-ground perspective from the courthouse, noting the judge's frustration with the trial's extended duration and Chandler's fluctuating courtroom demeanor.

Quote:
Marianne O'Donnell: "The judge is really exhorting Dana to kind of wrap it up, because don't forget the people on this jury. I mean, they've got their lives to get back to, and this is kind of dragging on."
Timestamp: [15:10]

2. Dateline Roundup

a. The Mysterious Death of Gene Hackman

Overview:
Hollywood legend Gene Hackman's death is under intense scrutiny following the discovery of suspicious circumstances surrounding his and his wife's demise.

Key Points:

• Discovery:
  Gene Hackman, his wife Betsy, and their dog were found dead in their home, with initial appearances suggesting possible foul play.

  Quote:
  Vicky Wynn: "Last Wednesday, neighborhood security officials found Hackman in a mudroom, his wife in a bathroom, along with scattered pills and their dog, one of them, in a crate in the bathroom closet."
  Timestamp: [23:38]

• Investigation Findings:
  Initial theories of carbon monoxide poisoning were dismissed. Later investigations revealed a minor gas leak, but not at a lethal level, raising further questions about the true cause of death.

  Quote:
  Vicky Wynn: "At a press conference, officials said initial autopsy results were negative for carbon monoxide poisoning."
  Timestamp: [24:05]

• Ongoing Inquiries:
  Authorities are awaiting toxicology results and scrutinizing body camera footage from deputies who responded to the scene to uncover any overlooked details.

  Quote:
  Vicky Wynn: "They may soon release some of that footage."
  Timestamp: [25:04]

b. Deanne Warner's Murder Case

Overview:
Deanne Warner, a Michigan grandmother, was found dead in a fertilizer tank two years after her disappearance. The case has seen significant developments with new arrests.

Key Points:

• Family Involvement:
  Deanne's stepson, Jaron Dale Warner, has been arrested on charges of tampering with evidence and being an accessory after the fact to her murder. He stands alongside his father, Dale Warner, who is awaiting trial.

  Quote:
  Vicky Wynn: "Dee's stepson 28-year-old Jaron Dale Warner was arrested over the weekend on charges of tampering with evidence and accessory after the fact in the disappearance and murder of his stepmother."
  Timestamp: [25:41]

• Legal Proceedings:
  Jaron has entered a not guilty plea, with preliminary hearings scheduled for March 10th and March 17th. Convictions could result in substantial jail time.

c. Karen Reed Case Update

Overview:
Karen Reed is accused of vehicular manslaughter after allegedly driving her SUV into her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, resulting in his death.

Key Points:

• Defense Arguments:
  The defense has filed motions to dismiss the case, claiming that the prosecution suppressed critical surveillance footage that could exonerate Reed. Previous dismissal attempts have been unsuccessful.

  Quote:
  Vicky Wynn: "The defense says the prosecution suppressed video surveillance footage that would prove Karen Reed's innocence."
  Timestamp: [27:12]

• Federal Probe Conclusion:
  Special Prosecutor Hank Brennan has confirmed the closure of the federal investigation into O'Keefe's death, simultaneously requesting a gag order for all attorneys involved.

  Quote:
  Dana Chandler: "There is no longer any federal investigation into the investigation of John O'Keefe's death or any related matters."
  Timestamp: [27:50]

• Ongoing Legal Battles:
  Reed's defense continues to face accusations from prosecutors regarding potential jury manipulation and evidence suppression.

3. Travel Scam Safety Tips

Overview:
With the winter season prompting many to plan their vacations, NBC News' Chief Consumer Investigative Correspondent Vicky Wynn shares essential tips to avoid falling victim to travel scams.

Key Recommendations:

• Beware of Unrealistic Deals:
  If a vacation offer seems too good to be true, it likely is. Scammers often lure victims with exorbitant discounts that are unsustainable.

  Quote:
  Sue Simpson (Vicky Wynn): "If the price is too good to be true, be very, very careful."
  Timestamp: [29:11]

• Payment Methods Matter:
  Avoid paying through peer-to-peer systems like Zelle or Venmo, which lack the fraud protections that credit cards offer. Legitimate travel agents typically use secure payment methods.

  Quote:
  Sue Simpson: "Are they asking you to pay with a gift card with Venmo or Zelle or cash app, some kind of peer-to-peer payment system that may not have the kinds of protections as a credit card?"
  Timestamp: [29:35]

• Verify Authenticity:
  Conduct thorough research by searching for company reviews and confirming the legitimacy of hotels and travel providers. Directly contact properties to ensure their validity.

  Quote:
  Sue Simpson: "Do your homework. That means entering the name of the company, the name of the hotel property and the word review."
  Timestamp: [30:47]

• Understand Cancellation Policies:
  Familiarize yourself with cancellation terms and set reminders to cancel bookings within free cancellation windows to avoid unexpected charges.

  Quote:
  Sue Simpson: "Make sure you know what the cancellation policies are. And if there is a 24-hour cancellation period, I like to set a reminder in my phone."
  Timestamp: [31:35]

Personal Anecdote:
Sue shared a personal experience where her husband almost fell for a scam on a peer-to-peer booking site, emphasizing the importance of vigilance.

Quote:
Sue Simpson: "As we were getting closer, you know, we weren't getting the details sent to us. So we made a couple of extra calls and it turns out that wasn't really a listing. That place didn't actually exist."
Timestamp: [32:14]

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Conclusion

This episode of Dateline NBC provides a compelling deep dive into high-stakes legal battles, mysterious deaths, and practical advice to protect consumers from travel scams. From Dana Chandler's unconventional defense strategy to critical updates on high-profile criminal cases, listeners are offered a blend of intense true-crime narratives and valuable investigative insights. Additionally, Vicky Wynn's consumer tips serve as essential guidance for those planning their next getaway, ensuring safe and scam-free travel experiences.

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For more detailed accounts and ongoing coverage, subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive content at DatelinePremium.com.

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Andrea Canning]

Brought.

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[Dana Chandler]

Good morning.

[Andrea Canning]

It's morning here at 30 Rockefeller center and time for the DATELINE story meeting.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

We got everybody, so let's go ahead and jump in.

[Andrea Canning]

Producers are swapping tips about breaking crime news and cases playing out in courtrooms across the country.

[Dana Chandler]

The investigation into like the Chain Link and how they trace that to the.

[Chetna Joshi]

Lowe's, the toxicology reports will be most important. That could take several weeks. She is just saying you've got to let me out.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Prosecutors saying it's not the Four Seasons.

[Andrea Canning]

Welcome to DATELINE True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's March 6th and here's what's on our docket. Fireworks in a Kansas courtroom as Dana Chandler, the woman representing herself at her third trial on charges she murdered her ex husband and his girlfriend, calls the lead detective as a defense witness.

[Dana Chandler]

Were there my fingerprints in the house? No. Were there any of my hair in the house? No.

[Andrea Canning]

In DATELINE roundup, what we know about the investigation into the mysterious death of Hollywood legend Gene Hackman.

[Vicky Wynn]

They're combing through hours of body camera footage from the deputies who responded to the scene. They may soon release some of that footage.

[Andrea Canning]

Plus, NBC News chief consumer investigative correspondent Vicky Wynn is back to share her tips on how to avoid being scammed while booking your next vacation.

[Sue Simpson]

If the price is too good to be true and you are not using your credit card, which has a lot of fraud protection, be very, very careful.

[Andrea Canning]

But before all that, we're head to Los Angeles and the latest bombshell testimony in the trial of a woman accused of plotting with her lover to murder her hairstylist husband. Six weeks into the prosecution's case against Monica Sementilli, the state has called an array of witnesses from the paramedic who responded to the murder Scene to a host of LAPD detectives, to Monica's own daughter Jessica. On Tuesday morning, they called one of their star witnesses.

[Chetna Joshi]

You may call your witness.

[Sue Simpson]

Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

The people call Christopher Austin. Prosecutors say Christopher Austin helped Monica's lover, Robert Baker, kill her husband Fabio. In January, Austin pleaded guilty to second degree murder for his role in the crime and agreed to testify against Monica, who he says knew about the plot. This week, we finally heard his emotional testimony in court. Dateline producer Chetna Joshi is back to tell us what Christopher Austin had to say. Chetna, thanks for joining us again.

[Chetna Joshi]

Yeah, thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

So, Chetna, the prosecution started by talking a bit about Christopher Austin's relationship with Robert Baker, which has had been a bit of a mystery to you. Chetna, your team Dateline until now. So what did we find out about their connection?

[Chetna Joshi]

Yeah, so we learned that Christopher Austin was about in middle school when he met Robert Baker and that his dad and Robert Baker were very good friends.

[Andrea Canning]

Did you have a term that you referred to him as?

[Dana Chandler]

Yes.

[Andrea Canning]

What is that?

[Dana Chandler]

I called him unc, short for uncle.

[Andrea Canning]

And is Rob older than you then?

[Dana Chandler]

Yes.

[Andrea Canning]

How much older?

[Dana Chandler]

Same age as my dad, I guess. I'm not a math guy. 30 plus years older than me.

[Chetna Joshi]

As the years went on, Christopher Austin and Baker developed a friendship. Christopher Austin even worked for him almost as an assistant. And, you know, kind of the way he put it, doing whatever Baker needed him to do.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so the prosecution walked through Christopher Austin's arrest last October. Now, this is more than seven years after the crime. When the detective met with him, Austin said he was shown photos of himself and Baker jogging and inside the black Porsche that they took from the Semantily house after the murder.

[Chetna Joshi]

This is when Austin testifies that, yeah, he understands, like, he knows why he's there. And so when detectives finally bring him in for an interview, Christopher Austin admits to them that, yes, he was there and that, yes, he stabbed Fabio.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, my gosh. That's intense. And interestingly, when Austin was arrested, he was taken to a cell where they had planted an undercover officer. Does he get anything good out of him?

[Chetna Joshi]

Yeah, who knows if it's because now that he's confessed to detectives or for what reason. But Austin now starts opening up more to his cellmate. He tells him that his unc, his uncle, who we know is Robert Baker, and the woman that. These are the words he uses, the woman that he was messing with, were both involved. And at this point, the prosecutor in court asks him, if he sees that woman, does he see her in court.

[Vicky Wynn]

Can you please identify where she's sitting.

[Andrea Canning]

And what she's wearing?

[Dana Chandler]

To my far right, white blouse, gray suit, indicating the defendant.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, this is. This is huge. And he told the undercover officer something else about that. It had to do with money.

[Chetna Joshi]

That's right. He mentions to the undercover agent that Monica was supposed to be coming into a large sum of money, which he said was insurance money.

[Andrea Canning]

What did Baker tell you about it?

[Dana Chandler]

Baker told me she's loaded. She wants him gone. She's gonna get paid.

[Vicky Wynn]

Did the agent say to you?

[Andrea Canning]

To me, it sounded like it's the bitch who planned everything. Do you remember him saying that to you?

[Dana Chandler]

Yeah.

[Vicky Wynn]

What'd you say?

[Dana Chandler]

She knew about it? She did.

[Andrea Canning]

Christopher Austin, he was extremely emotional at times on the stand. One of those times in particular, he's describing what happened the day Fabio was killed.

[Chetna Joshi]

Yeah, when he got emotional, and it usually happened during times when there was direct questioning about the murder itself, and he would kind of hang his head low and get quiet and emotional. And regarding the day of the murder, he testified that they were at Baker's apartment, and Baker gets a text. And Baker says the text is from Monica and that she is telling him that there is basically a small window. And so Baker's like, okay, this is the time. We gotta go now.

[Andrea Canning]

Does he talk about the actual murder and how it was carried out?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Yeah.

[Chetna Joshi]

I would say that this was probably one of the most shocking things. I mean, it's not very often that we get to hear from a killer directly from his own mouth how a murder went down. And that's exactly what we heard in Christopher Austin's testimony. He described, once they got into the house, how Baker sort of took the lead.

[Dana Chandler]

He said, on the count of three, he's gonna hold him down. And he opened the door, and he held his mouth, couldn't scream. And he started. He started stabbing him. I'm sorry. And he started. Stabbed him once.

[Andrea Canning]

Monica's defense has no surprise, maintained that she had nothing to do with this plot to kill Fabio. This was Robert Baker. This was him reeling in Christopher Austin. How did they get around this very damaging testimony from Christopher Austin Chetnath?

[Chetna Joshi]

A lot of Austin's testimony focused on conversations he had with Baker. And so that's something that the defense really wanted to highlight in their cross examination, is that Christopher Austin never spoke to Monica about a murder plan. He never saw a text that showed that Monica wanted Fabio dead. This is all coming through Robert Baker.

[Andrea Canning]

And also the defense tried to poke holes with Christopher Austin as well. With inconsistencies that, you know, he wasn't truthful at times. With police?

[Chetna Joshi]

Yes. The other thing that they really wanted to highlight for the jury was that Austin did whatever was necessary in order to get himself the best deal that he could. And in his discussions with the prosecutor after the arrest, the defense attorney quoted the transcript and said that Austin is basically telling the prosecutor, hey, I gotta get home to my girls. His girls being his wife and his. His young daughter.

[Dana Chandler]

Do you recall telling her, at the end of the day, all you care about is seeing my girls? Remember that? I do. And things have to happen. But I mean, do I need to testify? What do you need? What can you do for me? What do you need for me so I can go see my girls? That's all that matters to me. Did you say that to her? I did. And was that the truth? Yes. And the truth is, now that you have testified to what they need, you're going to go home and see your girls long before you would have had you been found guilty of this murder.

[Chetna Joshi]

What the defense wants the jury to realize is that in exchange for getting the deal that Austin did, that's why his testimony is coming out the way it's playing out in court now. He ended up pleading guilty to second degree murder, which carries a sentence of 16 years to life. Now, he won't be sentenced until after this trial is over. And his deal is based on the truthful testimony that he gives in court and whether it's truthful or not. I think what the defense wants the jury to hear is that again, Christopher Austin had no direct knowledge that Monica wanted Fabio dead or had any part in this planning.

[Andrea Canning]

Chetna, thank you for your insight into this. This definitely was a very fascinating week in this trial.

[Chetna Joshi]

Definitely. Thanks so much for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Coming up, we'll take you inside a Kansas courtroom where Dana Chandler is on trial for the third for a double murder she says she didn't commit and is representing herself. This week, she called a surprising defense witness to the stand. The lead detective on the case.

[Dana Chandler]

Long.

[Andrea Canning]

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[Andrea Canning]

For our next story, we're heading back to a Kansas courtroom where Dana Chandler is standing trial for the third time for a double murder that happened 23 years ago. Prosecutors say Chandler, consumed by hatred for her ex husband and his girlfriend, drove hundreds of miles from Colorado to Kansas to murder them in their home. Her trial was expected to last three weeks, but has stretched into five, thanks in part to a choice Chandler made on the eve of trial. She fired her attorneys and decided to represent herself.

[Dana Chandler]

Start by stating my name. My name is Dana Chandler. I, as everyone knows, have been accused of double homicide and I am innocent.

[Andrea Canning]

Since then, she has cross examined her own children.

[Dana Chandler]

And if you'd please reintroduce yourself to the jury. Thank you.

[Andrea Canning]

And she has spent multiple days on the witness stand telling the jury her version of events. Then this week in another courtroom surprise, Chandler called the lead detective who put her behind bars as one of her main defense witnesses. Here to tell us how Dana is faring as her own lawyer is dateline producer Marianne O'Donnell, who's talking to us from the courthouse parking lot. Maryann, thanks for coming on the podcast.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Thanks for having me.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so the twists and turns of this trial, it's going what appears to be into overtime. How do the people in the courtroom seem to be taking that?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Well, the judge is really exhorting Dana to kind of wrap it up, because don't forget the people on this jury. I mean, they've got their lives to get back to, and this is kind of dragging on.

[Andrea Canning]

Dana has previously served as her own lawyer in some hearings, but this is the first time she is fully representing herself at trial. What is your impression of her legal skills?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Well, you know, it's. She's got a lot of the lingo down. She certainly has read into rules of evidence and procedure. But then she repeats things. She gets emotional at odd moments that you wouldn't expect someone to get emotional.

[Dana Chandler]

I am under so pressured right now, and I'm having a depression, difficult time proceeding. I'm living as quickly and as efficiently as I can, but I do need for the court to give me some space and quit putting me under such inordinate amount of pressure.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, on the tape, Marianne, you can. You can hear some swooshing noises.

[Dana Chandler]

We can't proceed.

[Andrea Canning]

And that's actually coming from. From Dana's attire.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

She interrupted her testimony at one point to say she was cold and she needed to get her jacket. So she basically sat the rest of the time on the stand in her winter coat, her puffer jacket, that I just never seen that before. I think she even uses a composite notebook that, like the time we had in school. So there are some things that are kind of jarring and other things that go, okay, she's doing an okay job.

[Andrea Canning]

Marianne, what would you say is her clearest argument that she's made on her behalf?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

I think the clearest argument is that which can't be refuted. It's that they really do not have physical evidence tying her to these murders. They really don't even have any kind of direct evidence. No one says, hey, I saw her there. I saw her in Topeka, Kansas, on this date at this time around the time when these murders occurred.

[Andrea Canning]

And Marianne, she really tried to hit home the lack of evidence in the case when she called the lead detective to the stand. And she was not afraid to go.

[Dana Chandler]

Toe to toe with him during your investigation. Of the crime scene. Did you ever learn or get any information that showed that I was in the Harkness residence at any time? Yes. What was that? There was two bodies there that. That were connected to you, that you were known to dislike one of them and hate the other one. Were there my fingerprints in the house? No. Were there any of my hair in the house? No. Was there any DNA in the house? No.

[Andrea Canning]

So, as we said, Dana testified over the course of five days. She talked about the marriage going bad and being heartbroken about losing custody of her kids. But she said she was nowhere near the crime scene that night in 2002. And Marianne, she also shared something that we hadn't heard before. She gave an explanation for two gas cans that prosecutors say she bought to fuel up for her drive to Kansas.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Yeah, this is something fairly new that's come up. That she went to an AA meeting on the day that basically the prosecution says she left Denver to go commit these murders. And she's saying, no, no, listen, this woman was in need of gas. I met her at an AA meeting. I didn't know who she was. She was in need. She didn't have any money. I went to go, goodness of my heart, to get her five gallon cans of fuel. I even brought them back. And then I went inside to my AA meeting.

[Andrea Canning]

So where is this woman then? Can she call her to the stand?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Well, here's the thing. We're talking about Alcoholics Anonymous. Anonymous?

[Andrea Canning]

Yes. So she still hasn't been able to present a witness who can give her a solid alibi. And this week, Dana, she's on the stand being cross examined by the prosecutor. Has this prosecutor been able to undermine her testimony?

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Well, you'd have to ask the jury. But let me tell you, just sitting in that courtroom, it did sound damning, everything he asked her. Are you saying your daughter, Are you saying your son misspoke or lied when they said you did this back in the day? Yes. Not true.

[Dana Chandler]

Haley, Dustin and Tim were mistaken when they testified. You showed up at soccer games shouting at Mike and Karen. Yes, that's incorrect.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

So what's coming across is that everyone else is wrong or lying about her.

[Andrea Canning]

And she's also, you know, the type of witness that doesn't remember a lot of things.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

That's exactly right. There's a lot of. I don't recall. I'm not sure.

[Narrator]

She's like, Shannon, do you remember where you lived?

[Dana Chandler]

Um, let's see. I don't remember.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

You know, it does leave him frustrated, but at the same time, I think he's trying to use that to show the jury that this woman is really trying to just confuse them and trying to play with the facts.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, that that's giving the jury a lot to think about. So, Marianne, we will want to hear how this plays out. Thank you so much for being in court every day for Dateline and for Dateline, True Crime Weekly. We appreciate it.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

My pleasure.

[Andrea Canning]

Up next, it's DATELINE Roundup. We've got a big development in the case of Deanne Warner, the Michigan grandmother whose body was found stuffed in a fertilizer tank. The latest from the courtroom in the Karen Reed case and what investigators are saying about the death of Gene Hackman. Plus, are you booking your next vacation Tips on how to avoid becoming the victim of a travel scam.

[Marianne O'Donnell]

Do you.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Dana Chandler]

Starts with purpose.

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[Andrea Canning]

Welcome back. Joining us for this week's DATELINE roundup is DATELINE producer Sue Simpson. Hey, Sue.

[Vicky Wynn]

Hey, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

All right. For our first story, we are off to Santa Fe, where last week actor Gene Hackman and his wife Betsy were found dead in their home along with one of their dogs. Sue, what have we learned about this, this tragedy that has some mystery to it?

[Vicky Wynn]

It does, Andrea. It really does. Let me just go over the background a bit. Last Wednesday, neighborhood security officials found Hackman in a mudroom, his wife in a bathroom, along with scattered pills and their dog, one of them, in a crate in the bathroom closet. Investigators at the time said no fil but the deaths appeared suspicious enough to warrant a thorough investigation.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, initially law enforcement kind of assumed that this could be a carbon monoxide poisoning. But they ruled it out, right?

[Vicky Wynn]

That's right. At a press conference, officials said initial autopsy results were negative for carbon monoxide poisoning. And on Tuesday, the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office shared findings from the gas company's extensive investigation. That investigation showed there was a major minuscule gas leak on one of the stove burners, but not a lethal amount.

[Andrea Canning]

And they also found that Gene Hackman's pacemaker stopped on February 17th. So they are assuming that they know exactly when he died.

[Vicky Wynn]

That's right. And if they confirm that to be true, that was more than a week before the bodies were found.

[Andrea Canning]

So really a lot of outstanding questions at this point. So now I assume we're waiting on toxicology, which can take a while.

[Vicky Wynn]

Yeah. And that could take weeks or even months. But according to the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office, they're combing through hours of body camera footage from the deputies who responded to the scene, and they mentioned that they may soon release some of that footage.

[Andrea Canning]

For our next story, we are off to Michigan, where there's been a big development in the case of murdered Michigan grandmother Deann Warner, which Josh covered on his Missing in America podcast. So just to remind people of this one, deann was a successful businesswoman who ran a trucking company with her husband, Dale Warner, until she went missing, missing in 2021. Two years later, before her body was even found, Dale was charged with her murder. Then this past August, her remains were found inside a sealed fertilizer tank on the family farm. And this week, a second person was arrested in the case. Sue, tell us who has been charged now.

[Vicky Wynn]

It is Dee's stepson 28 year old Jaron Dale Warner. He was arrested over the weekend on charges of tampering with evidence and accessory after the fact in the disappearance and murder of his stepmother. He was briefly booked into the Lenoe county jail before posting bond. That's the same jail where his father, Dale Warner, who is awaiting trial for the murder of Deann Warner, is being held. Jaron entered a not guilty plea when he was in court on Monday.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so police are saying that Dee's stepson, it looks like, helped his father, according to them.

[Vicky Wynn]

That's right.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, so what is next for the stepson?

[Vicky Wynn]

There will be two preliminary hearings. They're set for March 10th and March. March 17th. But if he's convicted, he could face jail time himself. The tampering with evidence charge alone carries more than a ten year sentence.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, we will be watching. And for our final story, we are back yet again in Dedham, Massachusetts for another Karen Reed update. She is the woman accused of drunkenly backing her SUV into her police officer boyfriend, John O'Keefe, back in 2022 and leaving him to die in the snow. She has denied having anything to do with his death. There has been a lot happening in this case, sue, over the past few weeks and we're waiting on some answers.

[Vicky Wynn]

Yes, Reid has been back in court for multiple hearings recently that we've been.

[Andrea Canning]

Talking about here and in court. On Tuesday, the defense presented their motion to dismiss the case entirely. What was their argument?

[Vicky Wynn]

The defense says the prosecution suppressed video surveillance footage that would prove Karen Reed's innocence. Defense attorneys allege that in Karen Reid's first trial, prosecutors showed the jury a video that had been altered to mislead jurors. The defense has made these motions before and previous motions to dismiss have been struck down on both the local and the state levels. We are still waiting for the judge's ruling on that.

[Andrea Canning]

And last week we talked about how the federal probe was rumored to be over. Now we actually have official confirmation.

[Vicky Wynn]

We do. We do. The special prosecutor, Hank Brennan, delivered the outcome of that federal probe.

[Dana Chandler]

There is no longer any federal investigation into the investigation of John O'Keefe's death or any related matters.

[Vicky Wynn]

Brennan then went on to ask for a gag order for all attorneys in the case. But he was pretty pointed about Reid's defense team.

[Dana Chandler]

The ongoing deliberate, purposeful poisoning of the potential jury pool is not only wrong and unfair, it needs to be stopped.

[Andrea Canning]

This comes after prosecutors previously accused the defense of violating a protective order by publicizing a text sent by Michael Proctor to an assistant district attorney in response to that accusation, the defense attorney said it was an oversight on his part. The defense has not yet responded to this latest allegation that they're trying to influence the jury pool. So we will continue to keep an eye on these rulings. Thank you so much for these updates, Sue.

[Vicky Wynn]

Thank you, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

For many Americans, winter is a season of bitter cold or staying indoors, as we all know so well. But it's also the perfect time to start dreaming up your next big vacation. So for anyone making plans, we've got some tips on how to avoid travel scams with NBC News chief consumer investigative correspondent Vicki Nguyen.

[Vicky Wynn]

Hey, Vicki.

[Sue Simpson]

Hey, Andrea. Love talking about vacations.

[Andrea Canning]

Okay, Vicki, so most of the time if a vacation offer seems too good to be true, you say it probably is, right?

[Sue Simpson]

That is so true. In fact, there's a brand new scam I want to tell you about, Andrea, that I just heard about. It was through a friend of a friend who said she was working with what she thought was a legitimate travel agent. This person would say, book your travel through me. I will put it on my quote, corporate card. And that's how you get the discounts. And this victim told friends, they told family and over the course of a year or so, people were booking vacations that were extremely discounted and they were paying via zelle to this travel agent. And now this woman has up and left and those vacations were never booked. Now this is something I am in the process of investigating. I had never heard of a scam like this before, but I have talked to multiple victims who say they're kind of left holding the bag because what the banks will say is you willingly transferred this money to someone. So my first piece of advice is if the price is too good to be true, be very, very careful. It's not just price, it's also how are they asking you to pay? Are they asking you to pay with a gift card with Venmo or Zelle or cash app, some kind of peer to peer payment system that may not have the kinds of protections as a credit card? I would be very, very wary.

[Andrea Canning]

So if you're browsing, Vicki, potential destinations, you know, hotels, vacation activities, cruise lines, how do you confirm that you know what they're telling you is really true?

[Sue Simpson]

Yes. Keep in mind that five star experience, luxury, these are just marketing words that companies can add to their websites and they can look for beautiful stock photos of any destination. So in order to verify if this is real, do your homework. That means entering the name of the company, the name of the hotel property and the word review. That's how you will find what people are saying, yes, this is legit or no, this is not. And I would also recommend booking travel through reputable sources using a travel agent. Usually they only charge a very small fee and they have actual boots on the ground, knowledge of the, you know, destinations that you're curious about.

[Andrea Canning]

So you, you have your whole trip laid out. Anything else that we should watch out for before pulling the trigger?

[Sue Simpson]

Make sure you know what the cancellation policies are. And if there is a 24 hour cancellation period, I like to set a reminder in my phone. That reminder lets you know, cancel before this time, before you get charged. It's also really important to call asking some questions to confirm the property. I think especially when you're using a peer to peer site like Airbnb or vrbo. This happened to us one time. We thought we were getting a great deal on a hotel room, but as we were getting closer, you know, we weren't getting the details sent to us. So we made a couple of extra calls and it turns out that wasn't really a listing. That place didn't actually exist.

[Andrea Canning]

And this happened to you?

[Sue Simpson]

This literally. My husband booked it. But thankfully, thankfully we started thinking, you know what, maybe this is hinky. And so we canceled it.

[Andrea Canning]

You're gonna train your family very, very well, Vicki. Thank you. And I hope everyone enjoys their vacations wherever they're going, if they're going somewhere in the cold or they're booking for summer, which I know my family is. So lots of good stuff in there, Vicki, thank you so much.

[Sue Simpson]

You bet.

[Andrea Canning]

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. To get ad free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. And coming up this Friday, don't miss Keith's exclusive interview with one of the most infamous women in America, one whose story he's been covering for the past five years, convicted murderer Lori Valo Daybell on the eve of trial and in her first television interview ever.

[Commercial Announcer]

Did you watch your children die?

[Andrea Canning]

That's a really sad question.

[Commercial Announcer]

It's a terrible question and it's one I hate to have to ask.

[Andrea Canning]

What secrets will she reveal? You've heard a lot of stuff, Keith. What I tell you will be the truth. Watch Lori Valo Daybell the Jailhouse Interview airing this Friday at 9, 8 Central on NBC or stream it starting Saturday on Peacock. Thanks for listening. Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Franny Kelly and Katie Ferguson. Our associate producers are Carson Cummins and Caroline Casey. Our senior producer is Liz Brown. Koroloff Production and fact checking help by Sara Kadir. Veronica Mazeca is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original Music by Jesse McGinty. Bryson Barnes is head of audio production. Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline. All right, thanks everybody.

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