Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview

Summary

Dateline NBC: Lori Vallow Daybell - The Jailhouse Interview
Episode Release Date: March 11, 2025
Host: NBC News

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Introduction and Background

In the gripping episode titled "Lori Vallow Daybell: The Jailhouse Interview", NBC News delves deep into the dark and convoluted case of Lori Vallow Daybell, a woman infamously known as the "Doomsday Mom." This detailed investigation unravels the web of murders, disappearances, and religious fanaticism that culminated in Lori’s incarceration.

Lori’s Personal Life and Marriages

Lori Vallow Daybell’s tumultuous personal life serves as the foundation of her story. Born into a large Mormon family in southern California in 1973, Lori was known for her charisma and involvement in the spotlight, including appearances on the game show Wheel of Fortune. By the age of 28, Lori had been married three times. Her fourth husband, Charles Vallow, whom she married in 2006, adopted their autistic son, JJ, and their daughter, Tylee. Lori’s son, Colby Ryan, described her as “multi-talented” and “always loving to do different things” (10:17).

Religious Beliefs and Meeting Chad Daybell

In 2018, Lori attended a religious conference in Phoenix, Arizona, where she met Chad Daybell, a man with a fervent belief in end-times theology. Chad, an author of apocalyptic-themed fiction, became instrumental in deepening Lori’s extremist beliefs. Lori described their meeting as a spiritual awakening, stating, “The veil was once again opened, and we remembered each” (12:53). Their shared beliefs led them to become leaders of a group anticipating the second coming of Christ.

Disappearance of Tyler and JJ

The disappearance of Lori’s children, Tyler (16) and JJ (7), in January 2020, marked the beginning of a series of unsettling events. Initially reported as vanishings from their Idaho home, suspicions arose when other closer associations connected Lori and Chad to a string of unexplained deaths in their circle. By February 2020, Lori was arrested in Hawaii and extradited to Idaho, where the bodies of Tyler and JJ were later discovered in Chad’s backyard (06:39).

Death of Charles Vallow

Charles Vallow’s death was another pivotal moment in the case. On July 10, 2019, Lori’s brother, Alex Cox, shot and killed Charles in what was initially claimed to be self-defense. However, investigators found inconsistencies in Alex’s account, such as the lack of a weapon and the implausibility of his injuries (18:04). The incident led to suspicions of foul play, especially given the financial motivations tied to life insurance policies.

Attempted Murder of Brandon Boudreau

In November 2019, an attempted murder on Brandon Boudreau, Lori’s niece’s estranged husband, further complicated the case. Brandon reported being shot at by a green Jeep Wrangler, later identified as belonging to Charles Vallow. This incident raised alarms about Lori and Chad’s intentions, suggesting a pattern of eliminating obstacles for financial gain (32:00).

Death of Tammy Daybell

Tammy Daybell, Chad’s wife of nearly 30 years, died under suspicious circumstances on October 19, 2019. Initially ruled as a natural death, an autopsy later revealed signs of asphyxiation, leading investigators to suspect Lori and Chad’s involvement. Text messages and surveillance footage indicated that the death was likely orchestrated to benefit from life insurance policies (43:35).

Investigation and Evidence

The cumulative evidence against Lori and Chad included inconsistencies in their alibis, suspicious financial transactions, and disturbing text messages. A critical breakthrough came from a text message sent by Chad at 10:53 AM on June 9, 2020, mentioning burning “limb debris” and a raccoon “now in our pet cemetery,” which investigators linked to the burial of Tylee and JJ (68:10). This key piece of evidence led to a search warrant and the subsequent discovery of the children’s remains.

Lori's Conviction and Trial

Chad Daybell was sentenced to death, while Lori received a life sentence in prison for her involvement in multiple murders and conspiracies. Despite overwhelming evidence, Lori maintained her innocence throughout her trial. In her jailhouse interview, she adamantly denied any wrongdoing, asserting, “I did not kill a soul. Absolutely not” (01:50).

Jailhouse Interview Highlights

During the 90-minute interview conducted by Keith Morrison, Lori exhibited a combative demeanor, frequently diverting from direct questions and presenting a delusional narrative intertwined with her extremist beliefs. Notable moments include:

• Religious Delusions: Lori claimed to have spiritual visions and connections, stating, “When I saw Tylee in heaven before she was born, she knew she was gonna come have all these difficult things” (74:01).
• Defiance and Denial: She consistently denied the accusations, challenging the veracity of the evidence and accusing the media of fabrication. For instance, she retorted, “I'm trying to give you the truth and you really don't want to hear it” (55:07).
• Manipulative Behavior: Lori attempted to shift blame onto her deceased daughter, suggesting Tylee had unintentionally caused JJ’s death, a claim her son Colby vehemently refuted (79:09).

Impact on Lori's Son, Colby

Colby Ryan, Lori’s surviving son, shared his profound trauma and struggle to reconcile with his mother's actions. Through his YouTube channel, "Scar Wars," Colby sought healing and understanding. In his confrontation with Lori during the interview, he expressed deep pain and forgiveness, stating, “I forgive you, but we can't be a part of each other's lives because I don't feel like I know you anymore” (80:28). Colby emphasized that Lori's narratives were baseless, asserting, “Absolutely not. That's all lies. None of it ever added up” (80:19).

Conclusion

This episode of Dateline NBC meticulously chronicles the descent of Lori Vallow Daybell from a charismatic mother to a convicted murderer entwined in a web of religious extremism and personal ambition. Through detailed investigations, compelling interviews, and the emotional testimonies of those affected, the podcast offers a comprehensive look into one of America’s most disturbing true-crime cases.

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Notable Quotes:

• Lori Vallow Daybell: “I did not kill a soul. Absolutely not.” (01:50)
• Colby Ryan: “I forgive you, but we can't be a part of each other's lives because I don't feel like I know you anymore.” (80:28)
• Keith Morrison: “You didn't kill a soul. You didn't conspire to kill a soul.” (85:55)

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This summary provides a thorough overview of the episode, highlighting the key events, character dynamics, and emotional impacts while maintaining the integrity and flow of the original content.

Transcript

[Keith Morrison]

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[Lester Holt]

Tonight on Dateline.

[Keith Morrison]

You've been known as the Doomsday Mom.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Good one, Keith.

[Keith Morrison]

Most hated mom in America.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I heard that. I thought we were gonna be friends.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, that would be you.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm friends with everybody. I love everybody.

[Lester Holt]

She's the notorious mother tangled in a dark web of murder. Lori Valo Daybell.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It's mind blowing. The media loves to take tragedies and turn them into crimes.

[Lester Holt]

Children, spouses, gone.

[Keith Morrison]

So what happened to Tyler and jj? Did you kill them?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Is that where you're going now?

[Lester Holt]

The first television interview ever?

[Keith Morrison]

I'm asking you a question. Did you watch your children die?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That's a really sad question.

[Colby Ryan]

That's my mom. You know, my siblings are gone.

[Keith Morrison]

If she would ever tell anybody the truth, you'd think it would be you.

[Colby Ryan]

That's what she said. She is calculated.

[Keith Morrison]

You did not kill a soul.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Absolutely not. What proof and evidence is there? All these rumors? You've heard a lot of stuff. But what I tell you will be the truth.

[Lester Holt]

Will she reveal her secrets? At last, an interview like you've never seen. I'm Lester Holt and this is Dateline. Here's Keith Morrison with Lori Valo Daybell the jailhouse interview.

[Keith Morrison]

Now, as I look back at this scene, I cannot help but wonder. The one in orange I need hardly tell you was perhaps still is the most infamous woman in America, Lori Vallow. What was she thinking just here? What was her plan? That she had one would seem quite obvious soon enough. But not yet. Not here. As her jailers led her down a bland white hallway in Phoenix, Arizona's jail for women. Hello. Come on in. And yes, I felt a moral Twinge. Hi. This would get her some attention. Apparently they have to stay on. They do. Go figure.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I talk with my hands, so that's gonna be a little difficult.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, there you go.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

We'll do the best we can.

[Keith Morrison]

But perhaps half a decade after the events that put her here, she would finally tell us why.

[Melanie Gibb]

Say hi.

[Keith Morrison]

Why her children are dead and her ex husband and her lover's wife. Why all that death and mayhem. But Lori Valo, as I was about to discover, had her own unique way of dealing with nosy interrogators. You're the most hated mom in America.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I heard that. And we all know what the media does. They exaggerate everything and they make stuff up and they twist things around. So I don't know how it became what it is today. It's amazing to me and I don't really know and I'm not exposed to what's going on out there.

[Keith Morrison]

Are you misunderstood?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Absolutely. But yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

Misunderstood how? I mean, how do they get you wrong?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I mean, how do you know a person if you never talked to them in five years? How do you know anything about them? How do you know anything about their life, how it really is?

[Keith Morrison]

You remember the case, right? Who can forget it? Hey, Chad and Lois. Dateline, how are you? We said nothing, no comment. We began our coverage just over five years ago on the island of Kauai, where in January 2020, we found Lori and her fifth husband, Chad Daybell. Just the two of them seemingly on holiday without a care in the world. Where are your kids? Except there's a lot of people who are worried about your kids. Yes, except, are you guys worried about him? That this was just months after Lori's children, 16 year old Tylee and 7 year old JJ, had simply vanished. JJ from their home in Idaho.

[Melanie Gibb]

Say hi.

[Keith Morrison]

Vanished from the face of the earth.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Happy family.

[Keith Morrison]

And by then, police had learned about other suspicious deaths in Chad and Lori's inner circle.

[Nate Eaton]

What happened to Tammy?

[Keith Morrison]

Chad? Chad's wife Tammy found dead one autumn morning in Idaho just a couple of weeks before Chad married Lori. Also recently dead, Lori's fourth husband, Charles Vallow. Charles had been shot to death by Laurie's brother, Alex Cox. You know, no weapons, no weapons on me. And then not far away in another Phoenix suburb.

[Melanie Gibb]

Where's your emergency?

[Keith Morrison]

Someone just shot my window. A 911 call from the estranged husband of Lori's niece. It appeared to him someone was trying to kill him. So I was just pulling in. So, well, you get the picture. I'm getting shot at. So I drove. And the two people at the center of all these strange goings on, the missing kids, the dead husband, the dead wife, the driveway shooting, claim to be leaders of the gathering of the 144,000 chosen people who, according to their own unique reading of the book of Revelations, would amass in a spot in southeastern Idaho near the town of Rexburg, to greet the second coming of Christ, Chad Daybell and his new wife, Lori Vallow. In February of 2020, Lori was arrested in Hawaii and flown back to the state where her children had disappeared. Idaho. Welcome back, Lori. Where are your kids? Where again, she refused to give the police any help at all. And then four months later, police found.

[Melanie Gibb]

What they believed to be human remains.

[Keith Morrison]

The bodies of the two children, JJ and Tyler, were found in Chad Daybell's backyard. They were charged with murder then. And after many delays. Guilty. The jury sentenced Chad Daybell to death. And Laurie, guilty. Multiple convictions.

[Doug Hart]

Guilty.

[Keith Morrison]

And a sentence of life in prison in Idaho. We met Lori Vallow 6 weeks ago @ the Estrella unit of the Maricopa County Jail in Phoenix, where she is soon due to go on trial again. Twice charged with conspiracy and the attempted murder of her niece's husband.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Alrighty then.

[Keith Morrison]

And the murder of her own fourth husband, Charles. Got all that.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm in trial coming up, as you know. Do you know that, Keith? Oh, I know that you're keeping track.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, yeah, I'm keeping track. So combative is how she was going to be practicing. Perhaps she is representing herself in court now. And she made the decision to meet me for an on camera interview because she had been telling us she wanted to tell the truth.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It's not fun when so many things are not true.

[Keith Morrison]

Ah, well, we'll get to that, won't we? Oh, yes, we'll get to lots of things. To Jesus in a jail cell.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

He has a great sense of humor and he's super, super funny.

[Keith Morrison]

To tall tales, you know, just can't be true.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

You're asking me personally, the only person on the earth who really knows, and you're shaking your head no, like that didn't happen.

[Keith Morrison]

To the bizarre claim Laurie laid on the son who lived to tell the story. Did you believe any of that stuff? To the investigators who speak out for the first time and reveal how they cornered Laurie and found those missing children.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Worry no more.

[Keith Morrison]

To a story that got weird the moment Chad laid eyes on Laurie.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I've loved him for eternities.

[Keith Morrison]

Eternities. The question hung in the air during our sometimes strange jailhouse conversation. Did for Me at least.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

And I will love him for eternities in the future.

[Keith Morrison]

Was the meeting that launched all this the result of pure chance? Or was it what Lori Valo always wanted? She was born into a large Mormon family in southern California in 1973 and was a charmer from the very start, but was unlucky in love. Three husbands by the age of 28, and a young son named Colby, who as a boy adored his hairdresser. Mom.

[Colby Ryan]

I would say my mom is multi talented. She's always loved to do different things. Sing, dance.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

We're letting me do that.

[Keith Morrison]

And oh, Lori loved the spotlight. Competed on the TV game show Wheel of Fortune. How's the hair in Austin?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It's good.

[Keith Morrison]

Good. Austin's a happening place, probably thanks to you pretty much. Now we have Lori Ryan and even in the Mrs. Texas pageant in 2004, during which she offered what now sounds like prophecy.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm basically a ticking time bomb.

[Keith Morrison]

But aside from that, she was a neighborhood fun mom.

[Colby Ryan]

She was always being the one to pick everybody up and sing karaoke at the family party. And she just got everybody excited to have fun.

[Keith Morrison]

By 2006, she'd had a second child, a girl named Tylee. Divorced Tylee's father and married her fourth husband, Charles Vallow.

[Colby Ryan]

He was so nice to me. He was so nice to Tylee. He, like, seemed like he genuinely cared about us.

[Keith Morrison]

And in 2014, Laurie and Charles adopted Charles great nephew, little boy named jj, who was autistic. Hi, jj.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Hi, jj.

[Keith Morrison]

Hi, Colby. Hi, Colby.

[Colby Ryan]

I fell in love with him instantly. You're so cute. I would get up in the middle of the night, run up to the room to see if he was breathing, just stand there and just like, is his chest moving?

[Keith Morrison]

Yeah.

[Colby Ryan]

So I loved him so much.

[Keith Morrison]

What was it about him?

[Colby Ryan]

He just has such a great spirit.

[Keith Morrison]

And so it went, my child, until 2018, when Laurie went to a get together at her church in Phoenix to hear an end time speaker named Melanie Gibb.

[Melanie Gibb]

She had a lot of the same energy I did, enthusiasm for learning and excitement for the second Coming.

[Keith Morrison]

Like Laurie, Melanie was drawn to a particular end times theology that their Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints considered too extreme. And as of that day, they became fast friends.

[Melanie Gibb]

So like a sister kind of a friend that you just meet suddenly and just like, this girl's a lot like me.

[Keith Morrison]

So Melanie listened to to Laurie's stories about her husband, Charles Velo, and three kids. By then, Colby was 22, Tylee 16, and JJ was 6. Melody got the impression that her new friend was struggling.

[Melanie Gibb]

JJ was a lot of work for her and he was running around and she was trying to make him happy. And then Tylee did not have a good relationship with her mom.

[Keith Morrison]

So when Melanie Gibbs suggested a road trip to attend a religious conference in St. George, Utah, Laurie didn't need much persuading. I kept getting ideas to write a novel. And once there, Melanie discovered that Chad Daybell, a man she knew, was one of the speakers. Chad was an author of end times themed fiction, claimed to have had near death experiences that allowed him to see the spirit world, see the past, the future. Laurie and Melanie went to hear him speak. And after Lori met chad, she was 45 then he 50. Do you remember the first meeting with Chad?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Absolutely.

[Keith Morrison]

What was that like?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That was amazing.

[Keith Morrison]

Tell me about it.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It was amazing because the veil was once again opened, and we remembered each.

[Keith Morrison]

The veil by the veil between heaven and earth. And that, said Laurie to Melanie, is how she knew she and Chad had met in past lives. Lots of times. Chad's past lives. How many?

[Melanie Gibb]

31.

[Keith Morrison]

And Laurie's past lives. How many lives had she supposedly had?

[Melanie Gibb]

21. And just five on this planet. Both of them had five on this planet.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, wait a minute.

[Melanie Gibb]

Just on this planet, where were the other ones? Other earths that were located in the universe?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

My spirit was standing up, looking down at my body.

[Keith Morrison]

But now, years after that meeting and all the trouble that followed it, sitting here talking to me in jail, maybe Laurie would finally recognize a more normal reality.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I mean, it's unlike anything earthly once you're out of your body. I was like, this is. No, I recognized him spiritually.

[Keith Morrison]

Recognized.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

He recognized me spiritually. That we had known each other for eternities. Chad. Hi.

[Keith Morrison]

Hello. Soon, Chad appeared on a podcast with Laurie and Melanie. Glad to be on the podcast with you. And then just three weeks after he met Laurie, Chad traveled from his home in Idaho to Arizona for a religious meeting at Laurie's house. Well, Laurie's husband Charles, was out of town. Did you see evidence that she and Chad were falling in love?

[Melanie Gibb]

Oh, yeah. I asked her, like, why don't you get a divorce? And she said, well, Chad and I are not allowed to.

[Keith Morrison]

Laurie's reason, she and Chad, she told Melanie, were exalted, godlike, no divorce for deities. Something we asked Laurie about, or tried to. So when Chad came along and, you know, said, you're a goddess and you've lived for, you know, since the beginning of time, and so is he, he said that.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Chad said that. Are you saying that Chad said that.

[Keith Morrison]

No, I'm saying did you hear Chad said. I'm just trying to remember.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I've heard a lot of stuff, Keith, and I'm here to say you've heard a lot of stuff. What I tell you will be the truth.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, will it be? Was it ever With Chad in the picture, said Melanie Gibb. Lori began saying some strange and disturbing things about husband Charles.

[Melanie Gibb]

Chad calls and says, I just want to let you know that Charles, something happened to him. His spirit is no longer on this earth. It is in the spirit world. And there was this character named Ned Snyder and now he was possessing Charles physical body.

[Keith Morrison]

So what, he'd become a demon or something?

[Melanie Gibb]

Or I guess you could call that. They, they later phrased it as a zombie. But in the beginning they just said Ned.

[Keith Morrison]

Poor Charles had no idea about any of this, of course, until, well, apparently until Laurie told him. Because a couple of weeks after that phone call at the end of January 2019, Charles called the police. I can't get in touch with my kids after coming home from a trip and finding his truck and his family gone. I don't know where my kids are.

[Doug Hart]

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[Keith Morrison]

Go ahead.

[Doug Hart]

I'll be okay and so will you. Subscribe and save now on the embedded podcast.

[Zulema Pastinas]

No, it's called denying us freedom of speech.

[Colby Ryan]

It's misinformation.

[Doug Hart]

Like so many Americans, my dad has gotten swept up in conspiracy theories.

[Zulema Pastinas]

These are not conspiracy theories. These are reality.

[Doug Hart]

I spent the year following him down the rabbit hole trying to get him back. Listen to alternate realities on the embedded podcast from npr. All episodes.

[Keith Morrison]

She's lost her mind. I don't know how to say it. We're lds. She thinks she's a resurrected being and a God. Charles Vello felt the ground shifting under his feet. His wife Lori had, in his words to local police, lost it. Ever since she'd met this guy at a religious conference named Chad Daybell. Charles said she was different. She said, you're not Charles. I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles. I can murder you now. I don't know where my kids are. Charles's anxiety was fully apparent on the body cam video, but it's gotten really, really bad lately. She's had a break. I'm going to kill you. You're going to murder today or tomorrow. I'm not irrational or stupid or anything. I'm not a. I want her to get it out.

[Colby Ryan]

Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

She's my life. I love her to death. Something's going on. Later, at Charles request, Lori submitted to a mental evaluation.

[Colby Ryan]

Hello.

[Keith Morrison]

Her visit was captured on police body cam 2.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I got an argument with my husband.

[Keith Morrison]

Lori told the police that Charles was the problem, said he had cheated on her, and then flew into a rage when she confronted him.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Unfortunately, yeah, we've had to even go to hotels just so he calms down or something.

[Keith Morrison]

You know, the cops seemed sympathetic just talking to you.

[Zulema Pastinas]

I mean, I don't see you being.

[Colby Ryan]

A danger to yourself or any.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Anybody else.

[Keith Morrison]

And that's exactly what the mental evaluation found. I'm gonna go check and see if I can go in there. But Charles seemed to know better. And at the end of June 2019, he sent an email to someone. You'll hear a lot more about Tammy Daybell, Chad's wife of nearly 30 years and the mother of his five children. It read in part, Tammy, my name is Charles Vallow. I have some vital and disturbing information regarding your husband and my wife, Laurie. Well, surely Charles expected some reaction from.

[Nate Eaton]

Tammy, but nobody knows who opened that email. But it had been opened and deleted, and Charles Vallow's email had been blocked.

[Keith Morrison]

Here's Nate Eaton of East Idaho News and an NBC News consultant.

[Nate Eaton]

So it's possible that Tammy Dabel did see the email and think, what is this? This is a weirdo. I'm going to delete it and block him. Or another theory is that Chad Dabel kept an eye on her email, deleted it, and then blocked the email in case Charles tried to contact her again.

[Keith Morrison]

And so Charles received no answer. He was alone and frightened, perhaps when he told those officers she was calling him a demon with a strange name. He says, I'm Nick Snyder. I've taken over Charles body. It wasn't Nick, of course, but Ned Schneider. You're murdered today or tomorrow. But what did it mean? What were Chad and Laurie up to? And was that why we asked her? And here's what happened.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Are you saying he became Ned Schneider?

[Keith Morrison]

Well, that's what he told the police, that you told him he was somebody named Ned Schneider.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Did you know when he told that to the police?

[Keith Morrison]

I have a video of it.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Did he hear it?

[Keith Morrison]

Yes. Yes, he's on tape saying that to the police. He was terrified that you were going to kill him.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Really, Keith? Is that where you're gonna go with this?

[Keith Morrison]

Well, that's what we're here to talk about. No, Laurie wouldn't talk about Charles as Ned Schneider, but of course she knew. We had her text messages to her brother, Alex Cox, referencing Lori's belief that she could not move through portals to the spirit world while Charles was alive. Apparently it is tied to Ned being gone, hopefully today or tomorrow. Alex responded, have fun and get rid of Ned already. And that said the police seemed to be exactly what happened because on July 10, 2019, Alex spent the night at Laurie's place. And the next morning after Charles showed up at the house. 911, where is your emergency? I'm in police and an ambulance. I got in a fight with my brother in law and I shot him in self defense. Subject that's been shot. The police in Chandler, Arizona were wearing body cams when they responded to the 911 call at Lori's house. You know, no weapons, no weapons on me. All right, come on out this way. And here they encountered Alex in the front yard.

[Doug Hart]

He was just yelling at me.

[Keith Morrison]

Okay, Chandler police department. Anybody inside? Make something out inside. Charles, age 62, was lying dead on the living room floor. Alex claimed the shooting was in self defense.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Charles is the husband and as you.

[Keith Morrison]

Can see, he kept touching the back of his head where he claimed Charles had hit him with a baseball bat. Another tall tale. Investigators have watched the tape frame by frame, of course, since it happened. The lead investigator up in Idaho, Ron Ball, spoke for most.

[Ron Ball]

I find it hard to believe that if Charles would have hit Alex in the head with a bat, that Alex would be up walking around with a minor cut on the back of his head. You know, Charles, he played minor league baseball. He knew how to swing a bat. I find it hard to believe.

[Keith Morrison]

The rest of what happened was also hard to believe. Though Laurie Was inside the house and certainly heard the gunshots that killed Charles. She promptly left and took JJ to Burger King for breakfast and then dropped him off at school before returning to find the police at her house where she behaved not at all like a shocked widow. How long have you lived here?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Like three weeks.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, geez. Yeah. Okay.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That's why the neighbors don't know us.

[Keith Morrison]

Gotcha.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Like hi neighbor. Sorry.

[Keith Morrison]

I said what are you doing? He's not gonna hurt my sister. Okay, do a couple more. Alex, Lori and Tyler were all taken downtown to give statements and largely told the same story, that it was self defense. No charges were filed. And then just days later, Lori called the insurance company about Charles million dollar life insurance policy.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Are you aware of who the primary beneficiary of the policy is? It's me.

[Keith Morrison]

Not exactly. Lori was informed that the beneficiary was in fact not her at all.

[Nate Eaton]

She found out within a few days that she was not getting any of the money because Charles had changed the beneficiary months earlier to his sister when he realized that Lori's mental health was not 100% and he was concerned that something might happen to him.

[Keith Morrison]

News that Lori had to break to Chad. She texted him. So I talked to the insurance company. He changed it in March. So it was probably Ned before we got rid of him. It's a spear through my heart. There it was. We got rid of him. Meaning Charles and upset that his death by gunshot did not produce an insurance payout. So what would Lori Vallow say about all this?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

There's certain things that I can't talk about.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh. Because your trial.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm in trial coming up, as you know.

[Keith Morrison]

But in the late summer of 2019, Charles Velo dead and gone. Nobody was keeping track of Lori when she suddenly picked up Tylee and JJ and they moved to Rexburg, Idaho. So close now to Chad and the unsuspecting Tammy Daybell.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I have lots of stories to tell you.

[Keith Morrison]

Which one is the real Lori Charles? Vela worried about her sanity. Her trial for the murders of J.J. tyler and Tammy was delayed for months while she was treated for religious delusions. Now in Arizona, she's her own lawyer and is either serious or not about this. Does Jesus visit you often here?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Jesus visits all of us.

[Keith Morrison]

Uh huh.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

He's a very good friend of mine. He loves everybody. I'm just his favorite.

[Keith Morrison]

You're his favorite?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

No, I'm just confused. That's a joke. Can I joke with you, Keith? Can we joke?

[Keith Morrison]

Yes. Yes, of course you can.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That's my bumper sticker. I said if I ever had a bumper sticker, it would say, Jesus loves you, but I'm his favorite.

[Keith Morrison]

We were well down the rabbit hole now that she dodged combatively from one distracting diversion to another, almost like a character in Alice in Wonderland.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I am talker.

[Keith Morrison]

So was this the real Laurie, or is she playing a character a lot?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Okay.

[Keith Morrison]

And playing me too. Or trying to.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Okay.

[Keith Morrison]

By early September 2019, two months after the shooting death of Charles Vallow in Phoenix, one thing was obvious. The characters in this drama were settling into their roles. Chad Dabo was the prophet, the leader of the group, the man one investigator described as an unattractive, unsuccessful author transformed into the keeper of the gates of heaven, foretelling the imminent end of the world and dictating with the wave of his hand the worthy and the damned. And Lori Vallow, well, she played a sort of nymph, a divine partner for all time, A heavenly honeypot, if you will. Former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Doug Hart worked the case from the start and knows as much about Chad and Laurie as just about anyone. There's kind of a mutual manipulation that these two had going, right?

[Ray Hermosillo]

Unquestionably, yes, it is absolutely a two way street. Laurie used sex to manipulate Chad, and Chad used his visionary status to manipulate Laurie.

[Keith Morrison]

But moths and flames can't forever exist 900 miles apart. So seven weeks after Charles's death, Lori packed up her kids, JJ and Tyler, and moved them to Rexburg, Idaho, or as she called it, Zion, to an apartment about 10 minutes from the rural property where Chad happened to live with his wife, Tammy. And we should add, there was another migrant to Zion, Laurie's brother, Alex Cox. His character has been described as Lori's angel.

[Ray Hermosillo]

He was one who was willing to do anything for his sister and ultimately, anything for Chad.

[Keith Morrison]

Such a supposedly funny, mild mannered man, according to people who had met him in other contexts. And yet there he was.

[Ray Hermosillo]

Yes, but clearly also an absolutely cold blooded killer.

[Keith Morrison]

Here in our jailhouse chat, we did get one confirmation at least, the obvious one. That, yes, they had moved to Idaho because Chad was there and that was where the righteous would gather before the end times. But something else had happened, too, revealed by text messages and a friend's eyewitness account. Chad had declared that Lori's daughter, Tylee had turned dark. And dark in those days seemed to have a way of foreshadowing. But as she told her story, Laurie fixed on a theme she pursued throughout our talk. Tylee, she said, was sick and in pain due to what she called persistent pancreatitis.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

She drove up to Idaho and followed me up there. She had to stay in bed for days, right?

[Keith Morrison]

But just a week after they arrived, on Tuesday, September 8th, the family, Lori, Tyler, JJ and Alex went to Yellowstone national park, about a 90 minute drive from Rexburg.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

We were going to go see Old Faithful and she wanted to go, so she got up out of bed. J.J. was running around and she was smiling. And you have seen the pictures, right?

[Keith Morrison]

These are the last images ever taken of Tylee. As for little JJ, less than a week later, on September 14, Laurie and JJ went on an outing to a wildlife park called Bear World. And a few days after that, Lori's friend Melanie Gibb went to Idaho where Lori had some shocking news. JJ had just become a zombie.

[Melanie Gibb]

The reason why I believe he became a zombie is that he was going to stop Chad and Lori from going forward. They didn't want anybody to stop them from being together, basically. And I think he was in the way.

[Keith Morrison]

September 22, the very last photo of JJ ready for bed in his red pajamas. That night, according to Laurie's visitors, JJ was acting up. Melanie Gibbs husband David Warwick saw Alex take JJ outside. A couple hours later, Alex brings back jj. He walked in, he had JJ on, he was asleep on him and he carried him up to bed. By morning, JJ was gone and never seen again. And just one week later, there is some crazy stuff that happened. I would hope that has nothing to do with this. It wasn't over yet. One thing everyone who's met Lori Vallow knows, the woman loves attention and she is certainly getting it from all over the world.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I hear stuff from my family that's like, oh, somebody does a blog about you every day or something. I'm like, how could they do a blog every day? It's been like five years. It's mind blowing. It's mind blowing.

[Keith Morrison]

A lot happened.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Mm. Tragedies, tragedies in my life. So the media loves to take tragedies and turn them into crimes, turn them into horrible things. And I had a lot of tragedies in a row, like a domino effect, tragic dominoes.

[Keith Morrison]

Or maybe as investigators could see as they collected evidence, something far more intentional. Just three weeks after Tyler was last seen alive and a week after JJ's disappearance, a frightened man called 911 in the Phoenix suburb of Gilbert, Arizona. Someone just shot my window. I was pulling in my house. The voice on the line belonged to this man, Brandon Boudreau. At the time, he was going through a nasty custody fight. With his wife, Melanie Boudreau, the niece of Lori Vallow and her brother, Alex Cox. The police arrived, quickly, captured the scene on body cam, and released this blurred video. Yeah, so I was just pulling in. I noticed a green Jeep Wrangler. They lifted their, like, back window. Brandon told the officers that the Jeep's back window opened. Somebody hunkered down where the Jeep's back seat should have been, stuck out a rifle where the missing spare tire should have been, and a bullet whizzed by Brandon's ear shattered the window of his car.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Okay, so they shot.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Then what happened?

[Keith Morrison]

It hit my window and started turning in. It scared me really bad. And then he said the shooter took off. The Jeep was green or gray, said Brandon later, and had Texas plates. And what do you know? It didn't take long for police to identify it. The Jeep belonged to Tyler, her now deceased stepfather. Charles Vallow bought it for her and the guy driving the Jeep. Later, Brandon told the police it looked like Laurie's brother. Remember, Alex had already killed his sister's husband, Charles. So was he trying to shoot his niece's estranged husband, too? There is some crazy stuff that happened. I would hope that has nothing to do with this. A lot of crazy in Brandon's life. His wife had run off to join Laurie and Chad and Alex up in Rexburg before launching a custody battle for the couple's four children. And as text messages have since revealed, Brandon was very much out of favor with Chad and Laurie, who were condemning him as a Gadianton, a criminal in Mormon lore. And then, weeks after a quick divorce, Melanie married a guy she had just met named Ian. So what would Melanie and her new partner, Ian, tell us about the attempt on Brandon's life? They sat with us in the spring of 2020. Did you ask Alex if he tried to shoot Brandon?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I did.

[Melanie Gibb]

And he made some jokes about it. And then we both talked about how insane that would be for him.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Across the street with a rifle in broad daylight in a recognizable car. He denied it many times.

[Keith Morrison]

That was hardly a surprise. But investigators thought this might be a pertinent point about Brandon and the attempt on his life. Charles death hadn't paid off in insurance money the way it appeared Chad and Laurie hoped it would, which probably meant they needed cash.

[Nate Eaton]

And Brandon, There was the belief among them that he had a big life insurance policy. He made good money, he had a good job, so they knew that he had access to money.

[Keith Morrison]

And then there was also this fascinating piece of evidence on the day of the shooting. Here was Laurie on surveillance video at her rented storage unit, joined by the still very married Chad Daybell. Here, police watched them bring in a tire just like the one that was missing from Tyler's Jeep when Brandon was shot at. And then they lugged in a folded back seat, which would have created space in the back of the Jeep for a shooter. On the way out, Chad gave Lori a hand in a more intimate sort of way. And then the day after the shooting, Alex showed up at the same storage unit in Idaho. And as you can see, he carried out the tire Chad had put in the day before and then also carried out the folded back seat. And meanwhile, two days after the attempt on Brandon's life, as then FBI agent Doug Hart learned when he combed through text messages, Laurie was getting antsy. She and Chad had planned a real date but had to cancel because, I.

[Ray Hermosillo]

Mean, you've been to Rexburg. It's a small town, and Chad's. You know, the chances of him being spotted while on a real date with Lori are pretty significant.

[Keith Morrison]

Tammy wouldn't like that. Then the very next day, Chad sends.

[Ray Hermosillo]

A message to Laurie. Big news about Tammy. Tammy's been possessed by this entity. Viola. I don't know the timing for quote removal, but once it's been affirmed, I don't want to wait.

[Keith Morrison]

Something would have to be done. Oh, and it would be. Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with one of the brightest stars in all of music right now, Jelly Roll. Telling me about singing those hits that inspire and telling the story of his rise from a difficult past. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts. Hey, everybody, I'm Al Roker from the Today show. Let's kickstart your wellness journey with the all new Start Today app. Everything you need for a healthier you. All in one place. Fitness challenges for all levels, meal plans that are easy and delicious and so much more. It's built to fit your lifestyle and our experts will guide you every step of the way. Come on, let's do this. To subscribe, download start today from the app store on your Apple device now. Terms apply. Cancel anytime through Apple under profile settings. It was late past midnight when they broke into the farmhouse.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Never in a million years would you think that you'd see your parents house taped off by that yellow tape.

[Keith Morrison]

And they said you remembered being killed. They left behind a wall of blood and a clue that took a case of double murder on a Long strange trip. She looked at me and she said, I'm screwed. Murder in the Moonlight, a new podcast from Dateline. All episodes of Murder in the moonlight are available now. To listen ad free, subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Dateline premium.com.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Everyone has a time when they live and everyone has a time when they're going to go back to home, to heaven. So it's kind of the idea of like you go off to college, learn a bunch of things, have experiences. That's what life is. And then you go home.

[Keith Morrison]

As Lori sat and explained, it all seemed so benign, as if she were in a temple wearing robes instead of bright orange and blue handcuffs in a high security jail. You'd almost forget what she was here for. Things like this.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Hi, I need to report something.

[Keith Morrison]

On October 9, 2019, one week after police suspected Lori's brother Alex Cox tried to kill her nephew in suburban Phoenix. Someone just shot my window. And three months after Alex did kill Lori's husband, Charles, I got in a fight with my brother in law and I shot him in self defense. A 911 call came into an Idaho sheriff's office.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Okay, and what is your name? My name is Kami Daybell.

[Keith Morrison]

Tammy Daybell, calling on a cold autumn night to report that when she returned late that evening from a church event, a man with a gun confronted her outside the home she shared with Chad Daybell.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

What was he wearing? He was all dressed in black and he had a ski mask on. I pulled up into our driveway and he. I was getting stuff out of the back seat of my car and suddenly he. And he had a paintball gun and he was okay and he was going to shoot at me. So I yelled for my husband. And then he took off running around the back of my house.

[Keith Morrison]

Who was that masked man? The FBI ran a cell phone geolocation search which revealed that Alex was near and then his phone was shut off just at the time of the attempted shooting.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

He was, you know, had a rifle and shooting at me, so. But nothing came out of the gun either.

[Keith Morrison]

It was months later when Detective Ball sifted through Alex's digital trail and concluded that what Tammy Dabel thought was a paintball gun was not that at all. That paintball gun incident, what was that really in your mind?

[Ron Ball]

I think that was attempted assassination of Tammy that was planned out by Lori, Chad and Alex.

[Keith Morrison]

And after the failed attempt, said investigators, Alex went on an Internet search for AR15 cold weather operation. So was it the cold weather that saved Tammy Daybell? That time maybe added to this. Tammy didn't park in her usual spot.

[Nate Eaton]

And so when Tammy Daybell pulled in the driveway, she normally didn't park in. It likely threw Alex off. He had to run further than he would have, and it could have shaken that gun. Thus, the gun misfired or didn't fire at all.

[Keith Morrison]

And she may have heard, like, some sort of semi pop and thought that was painful.

[Nate Eaton]

Exactly.

[Keith Morrison]

So plan A having failed, apparently it was time for plan B. Ten days later.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

911, where's your emergency?

[Keith Morrison]

We just found my mom. She's on the ground frozen. Her? She's that. I'm Chad, the husband. She's clearly dead.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm so sorry.

[Keith Morrison]

Chad and his son called to report that Tammy had died in her sleep.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Okay, Chad, I'm gonna get somebody up to you right now.

[Keith Morrison]

Later that morning, Chad notified Tammy's sister.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Sam, I got a phone call from Chad telling me that she had passed away in her sleep.

[Keith Morrison]

How do you process something like that?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

You don't, because I had just seen her, and it just didn't feel.

[Keith Morrison]

She was fine.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It didn't feel real, didn't feel right.

[Keith Morrison]

What did Chad say happened?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That. That she'd been sick and had a coughing fit and passed away. It was a really hard moment.

[Keith Morrison]

Tammy was buried without delay in her hometown in Utah. There was no autopsy. Chad's choice, the sheriff said, because back then, it just didn't seem suspicious. It was later when the story began to emerge that they exhumed Tammy's body. And the M.E. found bruises on her arms as if she were held down. And the cause of death was asphyxiation. Just what lead investigator Ball suspected.

[Ron Ball]

I don't think I'll ever forget that moment when he said, I had the results of Tammy's autopsy. They were ruling it a homicide, and, you know, we all knew it.

[Keith Morrison]

And when looking for suspects, once again, detectives did not have to look far. When Tammy did die, did the evidence show that Alex was. Was there?

[Ray Hermosillo]

No. Close by. It's my belief that the Chad went and picked him up and brought him back to the house and that the two of them did that together. And then Chad took him back to where his car was parked.

[Keith Morrison]

But that was a two person crime.

[Ray Hermosillo]

I don't see how you could do it otherwise.

[Keith Morrison]

Later at Chad's trial, experts testified it would have been difficult for one person to complete the task that is difficult for Alex without Chad's help. I'm trying, but sitting here with me. Laurie simply dismissed all that. No foul play at all she said, perfectly innocent.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Tammy died of natural causes. Tammy knows the truth. I love her, and she loves me. We've been friends for eternities.

[Keith Morrison]

Yes, and nowadays, Tammy comes to visit her in jail, said Laurie. Anyway, the funerals weren't over. Another one coming soon.

[Zulema Pastinas]

I remember a sense of relief, like, okay, the. The guy who was in charge of this stuff is gone.

[Keith Morrison]

But first, it was time for a wedd.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

You're gonna have to break these questions down, Keith, and I'm gonna have to answer them one at a time. Cause I thought we were gonna be friends.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, yeah, I think we are, aren't we?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm friends with everybody. I love everybody. Yeah, I'm all about the love.

[Keith Morrison]

We had raised the subject of love in our conversation with convicted killer Lori Vallow because, well, people do lie about love and death and what happened when. But what's the title of that old song? Facts Don't. So facts are what we spoke of. Now, our questions took us back to November 5, 2019, exactly 17 days after Chad Daybell's wife Tammy, was murdered in her own bed. There was a wedding 3,000 miles away from Idaho on the island of Kauai. The happy couple. Who else? Chad and Laurie. Now, Daybell, what was the relationship with Chad all about anyway?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

My husband.

[Keith Morrison]

Your?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Yeah, my husband that I've been married to for five years.

[Keith Morrison]

Sure. And everybody calls you Lori Vallow. Does that bother you?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It doesn't bother me, but I'm Laurie Daybell.

[Keith Morrison]

It was often difficult to keep Lori on point, but on this subject, the wedding and preparations for it, she seemed willing to talk specifics. We had to ask because, again, facts. The evidence clearly shows that Lori searched for wedding dresses and rings and then bought a malachite gemstone ring on October 2, 2019. The ring was delivered to her five days later, October 7. But there was a hitch. At the time, Chad's wife, Tammy, was as alive as a person can be and quite unaware of the fate that awaited her. She was murdered on October 19, two weeks after Lori's wedding ring was delivered. In journalistic terms, this would be called a gotcha. And you bought the wedding rings?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That is an untrue statement. You don't know what you're talking about on that one. Mm.

[Keith Morrison]

Mm. It's online. The purchase is there, and then we see the video of those very rings on your fingers. And that ceremony on the beach.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Those rings were not initially bought for us. So get your facts straight, Keith. Who were they bought for before you start making accusations. See, you don't know.

[Keith Morrison]

Who were they bought for?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I don't have any idea. Because you've heard all these rumors.

[Keith Morrison]

You're gonna tell me who they were bought for.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Rumor has it.

[Keith Morrison]

Who were they bought for if not you?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Alex and Zulema.

[Keith Morrison]

Initially, that's Laurie's brother, Alex Cox, and the woman he would later marry, Zulemma Pastinas. Laurie's version. After buying the rings and dress for Zulema, Laurie and Chad borrowed them.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

We used them in our ceremony, and then they were given back to Alex.

[Keith Morrison]

The problem with that story? Well, investigators have many. First, former FBI Supervisory Special Agent Doug, who examined tens of thousands of items from Lori's electronic devices.

[Ray Hermosillo]

We certainly don't see any communications between Laurie and Zulema, which we would have seen saying, hey, I'm shopping for a dress for you, or I found this wonderful wedding ring for you. So that is conspicuously absent former lead detective Ron Ball.

[Keith Morrison]

Come on.

[Ron Ball]

It's Laurie trying to direct the details the way she wants them directed. Those rings were for her and Chad.

[Keith Morrison]

So anyway, Chad and Laurie, happy honeymooners after their island wedding and also $430,000 richer thanks to life insurance policies that paid. Upon Tammy's death, returned to Lori's apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, where, as it just so happened, police Detective Ray Hermosillo had just received a call from Gilbert, Arizona. Detectives there were investigating an attempted murder. Okay, so they shot. Then what happened? It hit my window. Remember? That shot was fired from a Jeep at Brandon Boudreau, the estranged husband of Lori's niece. And the Jeep detectives discovered was registered to Charles Vallow, whose widow Laurie, records revealed, had moved from Arizona to Rexburg. So what did they want you to do?

[Zulema Pastinas]

They wanted me to do some intermittent surveillance, kind of watch the place.

[Keith Morrison]

The place was Laurie's apartment complex where she and Chad and Alex and Laurie's niece, Melanie, AKA Brandon's estranged wife, had all set up shop. While keeping watch, Detective Hermosillo read in on Alex Cox, who was suspected of trying to kill Brandon and who a few months earlier, did kill Lori's fourth husband, Charles Vallow. So what are you thinking about him at this point?

[Zulema Pastinas]

He's kind of a dangerous dude, right?

[Keith Morrison]

At the same time, Hermosillo and his lieutenant, Ron Ball, started hearing even more chatter about Chad and Laurie, like how Chad's first wife, Tammy, had suddenly died just a few weeks, weeks before.

[Zulema Pastinas]

The common denominator in this whole thing is Lori.

[Keith Morrison]

And it was at this point, when police from Arizona traveled to Idaho to seize that Jeep, that investigators started to focus on the question, where are the children?

[Zulema Pastinas]

They asked about JJ.

[Keith Morrison]

JJ as in JJ Vallow, Lori's 7 year old autistic adopted son, who along with his sister Tylee at this point had not been seen for weeks. What did they want to know about him?

[Zulema Pastinas]

They just asked through our surveillance if we had seen a little boy outside playing outside the residence. And we told him we hadn't. He said, okay, well, his grandma hasn't seen him for a while and I may need your assistance to go knock on Lori's door and see if JJ's with Lori.

[Keith Morrison]

So on November 26, 2019, the detective did just that. But at Laurie's front door, there was no answer.

[Zulema Pastinas]

We went around the back, and that's where I finally met Alex and Chad for the first time.

[Keith Morrison]

What were they doing just hanging outside the back door?

[Zulema Pastinas]

They were unloading a pickup truck. I asked Alex where J.J. was at. You know, he kind of looked over at Chad, Chad looked back at Alex, and then he said, I think he's with his grandma in Louisiana.

[Keith Morrison]

The detective felt a weird vibe from Alex. What was he like?

[Zulema Pastinas]

Nervous. Especially when I told him that that was unlikely because grandma in Louisiana was the one that called in the welfare check. He gave me that thousand yard stare, and based on his reaction, I knew there was probably something more going on.

[Keith Morrison]

Something more? All right. The detective asked for Laurie's phone number.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Alex said he didn't have it.

[Keith Morrison]

Come on.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

So did Chad have Lori's number?

[Zulema Pastinas]

He said he didn't know Lori's number.

[Keith Morrison]

He was married to her, but he didn't know her number, Right?

[Zulema Pastinas]

He didn't know that I knew he was married to her, right?

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, no, of course not. Yeah.

[Zulema Pastinas]

I asked him again for her phone number and he finally gave it to me. But at that point, I knew something was up for sure.

[Keith Morrison]

Perhaps few detectives in the history of law enforcement have ever been more right. Something was up. Indeed. The looming collapse of Chad and Laurie's house of cards.

[Doug Hart]

On the embedded podcast.

[Keith Morrison]

No, it's called denying us freedom of speech.

[Colby Ryan]

It's misinformation.

[Doug Hart]

Like so many Americans, my dad has gotten swept up in conspiracy theories.

[Zulema Pastinas]

These are not conspiracy theories.

[Keith Morrison]

These are reality.

[Doug Hart]

I spent the year following him down the rabbit hole, trying to get him back. Listen to alternate realities on the embedded podcast from npr. All episodes available now. Hello, Dateline listeners. Are you thinking, oh, no, it's an ad. Honestly, that's what most people think at this point. So today, to spare us all, I'm here with a special offer. Ad free Listening to all of Dateline's true crime library. Subscribe to Dateline Premium now and get 25% off the annual subscription price. This is a limited time offer. Terms and conditions apply. Find all the [e-mail] and kiss your ads goodbye.

[Keith Morrison]

Go ahead.

[Doug Hart]

I'll be okay and so will you. Subscribe and save now.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Every morning we choose how to begin our day. I think about the people at home. They tune in because they are curious. They care about their world and they care about each other.

[Keith Morrison]

There's always something new to learn, whether a news event or a new recipe. And when we step through the morning together, it makes the rest of the day better.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

We come here to make the most of today.

[Doug Hart]

We are family.

[Keith Morrison]

We are watch the Today show with Savannah Guthrie and Craig Melvin, weekdays at 7am on NBC.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm here to tell you the truth. And you don't even want to hear it.

[Keith Morrison]

Of course I want to hear it.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I don't think you do.

[Keith Morrison]

But I want to hear the truth about all kinds of things. Time and again during our interview, Laurie assured us that while others lie about her, she was telling us the absolute truth.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I'm trying to give you the truth and you really don't want to hear it. So you want the truth? You want the truth that you already think you know. I'm the person it happened with. I'm the only one who knows the truth and I'm trying to give it. But if you don't want to hear it, I will be happy to be quiet.

[Keith Morrison]

Of course, it would have been easier to believe that were it not for all the lies she has told before. Like, well, for example, this body cam video of very poor quality showing then Detective Ron Ball and a colleague approaching Laurie's apartment in Rexburg. This was just minutes after Detective Hermosillo had that strange encounter with Alex and Chad in the alley.

[Ron Ball]

Lori, I'm Lieutenant Ball, Police department.

[Melanie Gibb]

How are you?

[Keith Morrison]

You got em in? This time Lori answered the door. And as if she had a choice. Welcome detectives. Inside. Sort of.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

This is a big mess.

[Keith Morrison]

From the start, Laurie lied like a sidewalk when faced with questions about her 7 year old adopted son. So JJ would be where?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

He's in Arizona.

[Keith Morrison]

Who's he with in Arizona?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

He's with one of my friends in Arizona.

[Keith Morrison]

J.J. was not, of course, with a friend. More on that in a minute. But as detectives asked more questions, Lori acted as if she had no clue what could possibly be attracting so much attention from law enforcement.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

What is all this?

[Keith Morrison]

We're a Little concerned. Well, the officers who were here earlier.

[Ron Ball]

Were checking, and they got a bad.

[Keith Morrison]

Vibe like something was going on here because nobody knew anything about a child. They weren't talking because a lot of.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Stuff has gone on, if you want to know. It's a lot of stuff, so.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Well, that's why we're concerned, because it.

[Keith Morrison]

Just was kind of weird.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It is very weird. I've had to move around a lot. One of my brothers is trying to kill me.

[Keith Morrison]

Kill her for life insurance money, she said. Wasn't true, of course. Projection, perhaps. Laurie herself, remember, tried to claim Charles's life insurance after Alex killed him. She went on then about why things appeared a bit dodgy.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

So I don't tell people the truth about where we are and what we're doing because of those reasons. So I look like a suspect, but I am a good person.

[Keith Morrison]

Then Detective Ball got the idea to ask her about those two guys in the alley. Who were they, anyway?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

My brother and his friend.

[Keith Morrison]

Probably Lori's brother Alex and a friend, Chad Daybell.

[Ron Ball]

At this point, we knew that they were married. She didn't want to get into much of a conversation about Chad for obvious reasons at this point.

[Keith Morrison]

Before long, the detectives left. Kate, get out of here. And as soon as they did, Chad and Lori got busy. Calls were made to Melanie Gibb in Arizona. For one, the friend Lori had just told police JJ was staying with.

[Melanie Gibb]

I get this phone call out of the blue, and Chad said, hey, Melanie, I just want to let you know that the chat. The Rexburg police are going to call. Don't pick up.

[Keith Morrison]

How did he seem? Calm.

[Melanie Gibb]

No, no. Nervous.

[Keith Morrison]

As her head spun, there was a second call.

[Melanie Gibb]

Lori calls and says, hey, everything's fine. Oh, I told him that J.J. was with you. It's like a bomb drops on you. What do you do? You just are in shock a little.

[Keith Morrison]

Was that the moment this all changed for you? The bottom fell out?

[Melanie Gibb]

Absolutely. I can't even begin to tell you how horrible that moment was for me.

[Keith Morrison]

Were you betrayed by these people?

[Melanie Gibb]

Oh, yeah. They tried to use me as their way of escape.

[Keith Morrison]

Melanie quickly got her head on straight, and when police called to verify Lori's.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Story, she said that she had JJ at one point, but he was back in Idaho with Lori.

[Keith Morrison]

Right. At that point, did you think something bad had happened to jj?

[Zulema Pastinas]

Not at that point. I knew something was up at that point. We were bound and determined to find jj.

[Keith Morrison]

And the next morning, when police showed up again at Lori's apartment to execute a search warrant, we went over There.

[Zulema Pastinas]

And everybody was gone. There wasn't a soul in that place. There was furniture, food in the pantry, food in the fridge. It looked like they just pretty much walked out.

[Keith Morrison]

You must certainly have hit a nerve with your questions. They just disappear afterwards.

[Ron Ball]

And I think that those questions that were there asking about the kids, absolutely. It triggered them to flee response, and they know that we're hot after them.

[Keith Morrison]

What started as surveillance on a jeep had certainly taken a turn. The chase was on.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I've never spanked my children. I don't yell at my children. I only use love and logic with my children. Right. I want to build them up. I want to help them because of what I learned in heaven.

[Keith Morrison]

As Lori Valo continued to explain the finer points of parenting, it was not lost on us that more than five years ago, she had gone on the run when detectives asked her one simple question, to which every parent of a seven year old child should have an answer. Where's your child? Where was JJ? For that matter, where was his sister, 16 year old Tyler? When Lori and Chad Daybell disappeared from their apartment in Rexburg, Idaho, that day in November 2019 and returned to Hawaii, did they understand how quickly the law would catch up to them? They couldn't have known really, that within 24 hours the FBI had been called in or that investigators would soon contact her son Colby.

[Colby Ryan]

I called her because I, I was freaking out. And I said, the two detectives are looking retiling at jj. What is going on? She said, I got it. I'll take care of it. I love you. Have a great day. Something like that.

[Keith Morrison]

Detectives in Idaho entered JJ's name into a database of the national center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Through our investigation up to that point, we learned nobody had seen Tylee either. So we also added Tylee to the missing person's report.

[Keith Morrison]

And when they asked that great detective, the public, for help.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Tonight, two Arizona kids are missing after vanishing without a trace. After going public, we started receiving tips on where Chad and Lori could be. And some of those tips came from Hawaii.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, enough to make you think that's where they are.

[Zulema Pastinas]

We were able to confirm that through cell phone data.

[Keith Morrison]

Okay.

[Zulema Pastinas]

From Lori and Chad.

[Keith Morrison]

Yeah, but were the children with them? Were they being kept somewhere else? Detective Ray Hermosillo didn't know what to think.

[Zulema Pastinas]

You kind of wondered in the back of your head, are these kids okay? Are they stored in a bunker somewhere for crazy religious beliefs?

[Keith Morrison]

And then in the middle of all those questions, a brand new shock. Okay, what is your emergency? Something happened to Laurie's brother, Alex Cox, her angel of death, something bad. He collapsed in an apartment in Gilbert, Arizona. Alex was rushed to a hospital, but it was no good. Later, police interviewed the woman Alex had married just two weeks before. Zulema Pastinas.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I remember them taking us to the hospital, and I don't remember much of what happened between that and until the time that they brought me back to the room for me to turn off the machines. Then I remember somebody came saying that I couldn't touch him anymore, that he was considered a crime scene and that I needed to leave.

[Keith Morrison]

It will surprise no one. There was considerable suspicion early on of foul play.

[Zulema Pastinas]

I remember a sense of relief, like, okay, the guy who was in charge of this stuff is gone. But then it was immediate. With now we have another body. It was so overwhelming, Keith, It. We didn't know what to think.

[Keith Morrison]

And here is the designated killer, apparently killed or at least dead. And he didn't know why at that point, Right?

[Zulema Pastinas]

Didn't know why at that point.

[Keith Morrison]

But when the autopsy was done, the ME Concluded that the death of Alex Cox was no crime at all. Alex Cox had been killed by blood clots in his lungs. He was 51 years old.

[Ron Ball]

I would like to have been able to arrest him and charge him for the crimes he committed. I think he got out of this world too easy.

[Keith Morrison]

Meanwhile, detectives and special agents decided enough was enough. They'd patiently worked the case for eight weeks. It was time to confront Lori and Chad in Hawaii. And it didn't take long for law enforcement to find them. Here. They were sitting by their hotel pool on a warm, Sunny Day in January 2020. What they gave her was a court order demanding she produce JJ and Tylee within five days. The next day, the police pulled them over, searched their car, seized their car, and thus forced them to walk a gauntlet of reporters back to their hotel. Reporters, including our NBC news consultant, Nate Eaton.

[Nate Eaton]

Did you do something to your children? Are your children still alive? Are you guys innocent of any crimes? Have you committed any crimes?

[Keith Morrison]

But four weeks later, Lori still hadn't produced the children, and so she was arrested and flown back to Idaho.

[Nate Eaton]

Welcome back, Lori.

[Keith Morrison]

Where are your kids? All right. Her first court appearance filled the room, the hallways, the streets outside with the curious citizens of Rexburg. But she still wouldn't answer the question, where are those kids?

[Ron Ball]

I remember walking out of the court at that time and talking with some guys. I'm like, these kids, they're not alive. We're now looking for bodies.

[Keith Morrison]

Indeed, they were hundreds of agents and officers had been working the case in months, multiple states, for months, combing through every electronic device ever attached to Lori, Chad, Alex and the others.

[Ray Hermosillo]

It had to be done manually.

[Keith Morrison]

And in the end, the search for the children would come down to one unlikely text message containing one odd word.

[Ray Hermosillo]

You can't do a keyword search. And if we did a keyword search, you know, raccoon certainly wouldn't have been a keyword that we were looking for.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Tylee's very smart, very sassy. She knows how to push your buttons. She knows what to say.

[Keith Morrison]

Gotcha.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I was able to be very peaceful with Tylee. I was able to be patient with Tylee because I watched her suffer so much. Okay. And I knew she was not going to live forever because you know that you can die of pancreatitis anytime you have it. Of course, yes, she had it every year.

[Keith Morrison]

As I listened patiently to Lori Vallow's long and winding discourse about her daughter Tylee, my mind kept going to those strange days in the spring of 2020 when details emerged about the search for Tylee and JJ. Over the previous six months, thousands of man hours had gone into the investigation. Searches of Google, Amazon, Facebook accounts, phone calls, text messages, geolocations for Laurie, Chad, and Alex.

[Ray Hermosillo]

Just to give you an idea, one of the phones had 54,000 text messages in it.

[Keith Morrison]

Wow.

[Ray Hermosillo]

Yeah. So it's days and weeks and months of just hard, detailed investigative work.

[Keith Morrison]

And all that work painted a picture confirming the September 8, 2019 trip to Yellowstone and revealing that Tylee must have been killed when they returned home that very night.

[Zulema Pastinas]

We have geolocation that Alex was in Lori's residence the night we believe Tyler was killed. Early morning hours.

[Keith Morrison]

And then a sharp eyed FBI analyst found the text that broke the case. It was sent later that same morning, 10:53am From Chad to his wife Tammy. It read, quote, well, I've had an interesting morning. I felt I should burn all of the limb debris by the fire pit before it got too soaked by the coming storms. Well, I did. So I spotted a big raccoon along the fence. I hurried and got my gun and he was still walking along. I got close enough. That one shot did the trick. He is now in our pet cemetery. Fun times. End quote.

[Ray Hermosillo]

What that text message did for us is that it represented a communication from Chad Daybell to his wife Tammy to explain why he was burning and digging on the property on that date, when.

[Keith Morrison]

In fact, investigators felt sure they'd been burning and burying Tylee and ultimately were.

[Ray Hermosillo]

Able to piece all of These critical things together into an affidavit and seek a search warrant for the property.

[Keith Morrison]

The date was June 9, 2020, nine months since the kids disappeared. Ron Ball, Ray Hermosillo and their teams drove out to Chad's Property, a nearly 4 acre lot a few miles from Rexburg. They woke up Chad and served him with a search warrant.

[Zulema Pastinas]

And I said, you know what? We're going to see if these kids are here. Based on his expression when he's sitting there reading that search warrant, there's going to be some type of change of behavior.

[Keith Morrison]

Was there?

[Zulema Pastinas]

No. And I just remember looking at Ron like, are we in the wrong spot again?

[Keith Morrison]

The detective may have felt differently if he'd heard the tension in Chad's voice when Lori called him from jail that same morning. Hi, Dave.

[Colby Ryan]

Hello.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Are you okay?

[Keith Morrison]

So they're searching the property. Chad was right to be worried. The FBI's evidence response team zeroed in on two places where Alex's cell phone spent time. Hours after Tylee and JJ disappeared under a tree, searchers soon found ground that had clearly been disturbed.

[Zulema Pastinas]

There's about maybe a four by two section that didn't fit.

[Keith Morrison]

Evidence techs removed a layer of white rocks.

[Zulema Pastinas]

There were some boards underneath the white rocks. And as soon as those boards were removed, you can see the difference in soil. And you could see a round piece of plastic, and then they cut into that black plastic and then you could see brown human hair.

[Keith Morrison]

That whole experience had to be just. I mean, that lives with you even now, doesn't it?

[Zulema Pastinas]

Absolutely.

[Keith Morrison]

It was, of course, the body of 7 year old JJ Vallow, still dressed in the red pajamas he was last seen in. A plastic bag over his head, duct tape over his mouth. The ME said he'd been asphyxiated.

[Ray Hermosillo]

That was a very emotional moment.

[Keith Morrison]

Did a number on you.

[Ray Hermosillo]

Yeah. Those aren't. Those are memories that, you know, don't go away.

[Keith Morrison]

They found Tyler 25 or 30 yards away. It was Tyler who was burned, her body dismembered. Chad, who'd been watching all this, suddenly got in his car, started driving away.

[Ron Ball]

So he got chased by down the road just a little ways, and he pulled over and they went and pulled him out of the car, detained him.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

There he is.

[Ron Ball]

So I asked, do you want me to tell your kids anything? And he says no, I already told him I'd probably be going to jail today. I know. Well, you're right.

[Keith Morrison]

They put Chad and Lori in separate jails and gave them separate trials. Chad for three counts of murder, for killing Tammy. JJ And Tylee. And for several counts of conspiracy to murder and insurance fraud, Laurie faced two counts of first degree murder. JJ and Tylee, conspiracy to murder Tammy and grand theft. Madison county prosecuting attorney Rob Wood.

[Zulema Pastinas]

Our theme was this is about money, sex and power. There were all these tangential religious issues, but it really was about money and sex and trying to control people. People who were in the way that they called obstacles. They got rid of them and profited from that.

[Keith Morrison]

The defendant would please rise. Both Chad and Laurie were convicted on all counts.

[Doug Hart]

Guilty, guilty, guilty.

[Keith Morrison]

How involved do you think Laurie was in the deaths of her own children?

[Zulema Pastinas]

I think the evidence suggests she was involved at some level. JJ's body showed signs of a struggle. And looking at how he was found, I think it suggests that more than one person was involved. And entirely, you know, I would tend to think it was probably a two person thing.

[Keith Morrison]

The jury sentenced Chad Daybell to death. The defendant would be sentenced to death on those counts.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

And Lori, Jesus knows me and Jesus understands me.

[Keith Morrison]

Before her sentencing to life imprisonment, she said something rather curious.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Accidental deaths happen. Suicides happen. Fatal side effects from medications happen.

[Keith Morrison]

What on earth was she talking about? Her surviving son wanted to know. And so did we. When we met with Lori Valladabel in jail, we were given 90 minutes to speak to her. 90 minutes, no more. She seemed determined to fill the time with tales about Tylee. She claimed that giving birth to Tylee actually killed her briefly sent them both straight to heaven before Jesus asked her to return to life on earth.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

When I saw Tylee in heaven before she was born, she. She knew she was gonna come have all these difficult things and she was still giddy with excitement about coming to earth and fulfilling her mission.

[Keith Morrison]

Meanwhile, Lori dodged questions about the wreckage in her own life. We have Tylee, we have jj.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Yes.

[Keith Morrison]

We have Chad's wife. We have the attempted murder on Brandon. We have. You know, there's a lot of maid.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

There's a lot of life. There's a lot to my life. If you want to hear the actual explanations, I'm here.

[Keith Morrison]

There a big long explanation.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Sound like you really want a lot of.

[Keith Morrison]

I do, I do, I do. But I just.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Explanations.

[Keith Morrison]

I don't have all week to hear all these explanations.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Well, it's going to take a long time, so it's probably going to take more than one session, huh?

[Keith Morrison]

That the sheriff's office told us was not the possibility. This visit with Lori, they said was a one time thing. It turned out, by the way, that we weren't the only Ones searching for answers from Laurie. Perhaps no one on Earth has been more affected by her crimes than this man, her son, Colby.

[Colby Ryan]

I've been working in therapy on unpacking a lifetime worth of stuff. I mean, it's an ongoing process.

[Keith Morrison]

In the past half decade, Colby has lost his brother, his sister, his stepfather Charles, the most stable male figure in his life, his Uncle Alex, and, of course, his imprisoned mother. How did it change the way you view the world?

[Colby Ryan]

I guess I always was like a very positive, see the best in people kind of person. And then I watched someone that I knew my entire life, you know, do what she did, and it just changed the way I view people and all.

[Keith Morrison]

The craziness and death.

[Colby Ryan]

There's just no way to, like, explain to anybody what it's like to go from, you know, let's call it normal life to something this big happening. And then I have to deal with the complexity that that's my mom, you know, that's someone that I don't even recognize anymore.

[Keith Morrison]

You know, there's a microscope on your life, too. I mean.

[Colby Ryan]

Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

Do you get the feeling of being watched as you progress through life?

[Colby Ryan]

Yeah, I mean, that's. That's kind of the thing I think I finally somewhat embraced is people are going to have questions. Welcome to the Scar wars podcast.

[Keith Morrison]

And so in the past year, Colby has decided to use his YouTube channel, he calls it Scar wars, to help with his own healing. And then a few months ago, Golby, who hadn't spoken to his mom in more than four years, began to worry about this.

[Colby Ryan]

I thought, well, what if she passes away?

[Keith Morrison]

Right?

[Colby Ryan]

And I think asking myself that question kind of brought me to a point of, you know, what if I ask her for an interview? Maybe I can at least keep myself emotionally in check while I ask the biggest questions I've always had.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

You sound good to me. I don't know if you can hear me very well.

[Colby Ryan]

Yeah, I can hear you pretty good.

[Keith Morrison]

And so five months ago, Lori called Colby from jail, and it gave him the chance to ask her how Tylee and J.J. really died.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I wanted to talk to you so I could hear your questions and answer your questions, because you are the only person besides me on this whole earth who really loved both of them the.

[Keith Morrison]

Way that I did. But then Laurie spun a story which investigators have told us simply could not have happened based on the evidence. It was evening, she told Colby, and she asked Tylee to put JJ to bed.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

What if Tylee holding JJ down for too long, trying to get him to not scream, and be loud in the apartment, which she was always upset about. And what if she held him down too long and realized afterwards what she had done?

[Keith Morrison]

Her implication was perfectly obvious. Tylee smothered jj, saw he was dead, and then took her own life in a fit of remorse. It was hours later, said Lori, when she walked in and found their two bodies. Quite a story. Colby was not having it.

[Colby Ryan]

You're telling ME Tyler took JJ's life, then took her own life, and then someone cremated her by dismembering her and burning her and throwing her in a pet cemetery. And then somebody bound jj, put him in a trash bag, and threw him in the backyard. That was it.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

What I'm saying is I. I wasn't aware what happened to them after I left that scene.

[Colby Ryan]

So you're saying someone else took care of the situation?

[Keith Morrison]

Yes. Someone else. Could only mean Alex and. Or Chad. And somehow it's all Tyler's fault. Yeah.

[Colby Ryan]

It must be nice and easy to blame my dead little sister for everything. Must be really convenient for her.

[Keith Morrison]

Did you believe any of that stuff?

[Colby Ryan]

Absolutely not.

[Keith Morrison]

All bs.

[Colby Ryan]

That's all lies. None of it ever added up.

[Keith Morrison]

And so Colby made the decision to tell his mom his truth.

[Colby Ryan]

This situation does put us at odds. And I can't sit here and say that I agree with you.

[Keith Morrison]

I don't.

[Colby Ryan]

I can't even really understand where this side's coming from. I don't wish pain or. Or anything on you. I have no malice towards you. Zero. Then I do 100% forgive you. I forgive you. But you and I can't even be a part of each other's lives because I don't feel like I know you anymore.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

This is my mission. And my mission will be revealed to everybody at some point and including you. And at that time, I just want you to know. Not gonna say, I told you so. I'm just gonna say I love you.

[Keith Morrison]

And after Colby spoke directly to his viewers.

[Colby Ryan]

My sister did not kill my brother. She didn't put it on her. So unfair. That's so unfair to Tylee. She would never do that.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Well, you're asking me questions.

[Keith Morrison]

Did she understand what she was doing to her only surviving son? Would she finally face up to what she did to the others? Were you there the night that Tylee died? Were you there the night that JJ died? My job attitude.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Is that not what you wanted to hear?

[Keith Morrison]

Attitude? Here you're calling me a babbler, and here.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Do you want to take a break?

[Keith Morrison]

Right. I mean, as we neared the end of our Jailhouse interview with Lori Valo. I was struck by the contrast.

[Colby Ryan]

I think that's kind of the place I'm at now, is just acceptance, just full acceptance of the situation.

[Keith Morrison]

Son Colby. Reflective, anguished, a serious man.

[Colby Ryan]

The way that my sister was treated was with hate. That's not even human, to do what they did to her after.

[Keith Morrison]

And Lori, not quite sure what this was.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

You want to go on later and say Lori told me this in your ominous voice, but really, this is what happened. Are you gonna do that to me, Keith?

[Keith Morrison]

Ominous voice.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Mm. Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

You mean that one?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Yes, that's the exact voice that I'm talking about.

[Keith Morrison]

Laurie danced verbally, that is, danced away from questions she seemed determined to avoid. She tried to fill our allotted 90 minutes with a long and rambling story about Tylee, clearly leading up to the same one she told son Colby. Well, we tried to finally pin her down on the established facts that had convicted her of multiple counts of murder. Why did Chad label your children dark? And then, you know, that is all. Call them zombies. You're saying that didn't happen?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Did you hear him say that?

[Keith Morrison]

Well, no, but others did.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I didn't.

[Keith Morrison]

Oh, I see. I see. But that would be a pattern, that he would label people dark and then they would either die or somebody would have an attempt on their life.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

No, that's the narrative that you've been running.

[Keith Morrison]

The evidence show that Tylee was killed the night they returned from Yellowstone, September 8, 2019, and JJ was killed 14 days later.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

No, that's not accurate. Sorry. It's not the truth. You asked me for the truth. You're asking me personally, the only person on the earth who really knows, and you're shaking your head no, like that didn't happen.

[Keith Morrison]

Did I shake my head?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Yeah, you're shaking your head a little bit.

[Keith Morrison]

No, I'm just looking at you. The evidence presented at Laurie's Idaho murder trial left her jury in no doubt whatsoever. I'm quoting what the court said about you and Chad, that you go ahead and quote it actually conspired to kill these people.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Were you there when I was falsely accused? I was falsely. Let me ask you directly, and I will be exonerated.

[Keith Morrison]

All right, fine. Were you there? Were you there the night that Tylee died? Were you there the night that J.J. died? Was. I was there, Alex, in these places, when they died, in the place where they died, were you there?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

What place was that?

[Keith Morrison]

Did you watch?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

What place was that? Do you have any idea?

[Keith Morrison]

I'm asking.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Well, I don't know anyone that knows. Do you know you're pretending like you.

[Keith Morrison]

Know it doesn't matter? I'm not pretending. I know. I'm asking you a question. Did you watch your children die?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

That's a really sad question.

[Keith Morrison]

It's a terrible question, and it's one I hate to have to ask, but, I mean, we've been talking about all.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I was not there, as you know.

[Keith Morrison]

I told Colby his response, remember? Did you believe any of that stuff?

[Colby Ryan]

Absolutely not.

[Keith Morrison]

But for Laurie, it's as if the evidence, the trial, the conviction don't exist at all. You did not kill a soul.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Absolutely not.

[Keith Morrison]

You didn't participate in killing a soul. You didn't conspire to kill a soul.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Correct.

[Keith Morrison]

You didn't do any of those things you've been convicted of doing?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Correct.

[Keith Morrison]

What to make of Laurie? Soon she will have to enter a whole new world. Not heaven, but her upcoming trial.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I have two motions that I'd like to file with the court today.

[Keith Morrison]

All right. She will be representing herself as she has tried for the murder of her husband, Charles. She's pleaded not guilty and not guilty of conspiring to murder her nephew, Brandon. What's it like acting as your own lawyer?

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

It's great, actually. It's a difficult thing to do. You have to have your arguments. You know, I think this judge in particular has been pretty patient in letting people get their whole argument out.

[Keith Morrison]

I can see where he might need to be.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Yeah.

[Keith Morrison]

It will certainly give her a bigger slice of the limelight she seems to crave, and she assured me will get her ever closer to the final result. She fully expects she and Chad will go free. Chad was convicted and he's on death row now.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I understand that. Yeah. They have some fascinating stories.

[Keith Morrison]

Possibly think that Chad would be exonerated after what happened.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

The same way I will be exonerated. We will both be exonerated in the future because I have seen things in the future that Jesus showed me when I was in heaven and we were not in jail and we were not in prison, and they were still in the future from now.

[Keith Morrison]

Her own little world. Well, something like that. Outside in the real world. Her only surviving son works hard to build a good life. In spite of all of it.

[Colby Ryan]

I felt really guilty for even being the only one that didn't get killed, I guess, for a long time. But, yeah, I mean, you know, you try to put a brave face on, try to be there for your kids. You try to make it about them, but there's always a loneliness there.

[Keith Morrison]

Well, his mother dances and dodges his questions and ours. And you're very good at dancing.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

And we should. We should do a little jig.

[Keith Morrison]

You've already done a mental jig with your stories.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

After I get exonerated, maybe I'll go on Dancing with the Stars and you can come.

[Keith Morrison]

Sure. Okay. Fine.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

Okay.

[Keith Morrison]

And then. All right.

[Lori Vallow Daybell]

I guess our time is up.

[Keith Morrison]

Currently. It's up. Yep. Lori Valo Daybell went back to her cell.

[Lester Holt]

That's all for this edition of dateline. And check out our Talking DATELINE podcast. Keith Morrison and Andrea Canning will go behind the scenes of tonight's episode, available Wednesday in the DATELINE feed. Wherever you get your podcasts, we'll see you again next Friday at 9, 8 Central. I'm Lester Holt. For all of us at NBC News, good night.