Summary7 min read

Dateline NBC – “Running Man” (Nov 18, 2025)

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode investigates the murder of Ashley Schwam in Ontario's Blue Mountains, a case initially believed to be a tragic car accident but later revealed as a meticulously planned homicide by her husband, fire captain James Schwam. Through interviews with family, friends, detectives, and forensic experts, the episode unpacks the investigation that exposed deception, calculated planning, and a shocking betrayal within a picture-perfect family.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Apparent Accident and Initial Shock

Incident Discovery ([03:58–05:59])
- Volunteer firefighter discovers a burning SUV off Arrowhead Road; an intense fire rages, unusual for a car accident.
- The body of a woman (later identified as Ashley Schwam) is found inside.
- The scene raises suspicions—no visible signs of impact with guardrails, the car had apparently slid off a narrow section.

“It wasn’t a crash that somebody should have died in. Was it something else? Was it murder?”
— Detective Sean Glassford [01:31]

2. Identifying the Victim & Notifying Family

Piecing Together Identities ([06:44–12:00])
- Car is traced to James Schwam, a respected fire captain.
- Police struggle to locate both James and Ashley; initial confusion leads some to believe James may be the victim.
- Ashley’s family and friends learn of her death, triggering profound grief and disbelief.

"She was a sister, an aunt, a friend. He said she had been in a car accident and I just remember screaming."
— Lindsay Milnes (Ashley’s sister) [01:09] and [13:18]

3. Family Portrait: The Schwams

Background & Community Ties ([14:06–16:16])
- James and Ashley met in their 20s, married in 2012, and seemed the epitome of happiness.
- Both came from affluent backgrounds, were involved in community, and had two young children.

"They were a great match."
— Lindsay Milnes [14:26]

4. Early Suspicions and the Investigation Widens

Forensic Red Flags ([17:10–22:14])
- Investigators suspect the crash was neither purely accidental nor survivable under normal circumstances.
- Strange circumstances: no skid marks, no evidence of Ashley hiking that early, other anomalies.

"There was no baking, there was no steering...it really looked like it was pointed right there. Intentionally driven off."
— Det. Jeremy Schiffman [17:32], [22:14]

5. The ‘Running Man’—Critical CCTV Evidence

Breakthrough Videos ([34:43–36:38])
- Surveillance footage at ski club parking lot and near the crash site shows a figure — later dubbed "Running Man" — fleeing with a backpack.
- Timeline reconstructed; police hypothesize the killer staged the crash and ran from the scene.

"Find this Running Man, find your killer."
— Lester Holt [02:01], [36:13]

6. Marital Trouble and Motive

Affair and Repercussions ([38:49–43:54])
- Detectives and family learn Ashley had a brief affair with her boss, Steve McDonald.
- Marital strife ensues, couple attends counseling, Ashley quits her job.
- Rumors swirl; James exhibits emotional distress in the months leading to the murder.

“She got a call that morning by disguise wife and said you were with my husband, the cheating bastard. If you do not tell your husband... I will.”
— Ian Milnes (Ashley’s father) [39:09]

7. Eliminating Other Suspects

Multiple Leads Checked ([44:17–46:49])
- Police rule out Ashley’s ex-boss, his wife, and a contractor with whom Ashley had argued.
- Focus sharpens on James, especially as his alibi—walking the dog—cannot be verified by security footage.

“That canvas team that was now looking for his route, they don't find him.”
— Det. Jeremy Schiffman [47:01]

8. Forensic and Behavioral Evidence Against James

Timeline Experiments and Deception Unraveled ([52:19–55:04], [59:10–61:00])
- Police reconstruct possible run and bike routes, determining the timeline is tight but potentially feasible.
- Key evidence: texts allegedly from Ashley about gas cans, but CCTV shows James placing these in her car beforehand.
- Autopsy reveals Ashley died from neck compression before the fire; lighter with James’s initials found in the burned vehicle.

“The shoe was actually a specific snow hiking shoe... He redressed her to get her set up. So everything looked the part.”
— Det. Jeremy Schiffman [59:17]

“A Zippo lighter with the initials JWS. James William Schwam. He's thinking this fire is going to consume everything.”
— Det. Jeremy Schiffman [60:33]

9. The Arrest and Community Shock

Confronting James ([61:08–63:55])
- James is arrested outside his house with his children present; his reaction is flat, confusing detectives.
- Community and firefighter colleagues are stunned; some initially defend James, unable to reconcile the allegations with his reputation.

“I've never heard a response like that after or during an arrest.”
— Lester Holt [61:42]

10. The Full Picture Emerges: Planning & Motive

Further Evidence and Motives ([66:23–75:52])
- Testimony emerges that James researched neck breaking and inquired about divorce, alimony, and police procedures.
- Detectives uncover James' affair with Alexandra McDonald, his attempts to position a new relationship, financial motives including life insurance, and elaborate efforts to stage the death.
- The use of his mother’s car as a getaway vehicle clinches the logistics of his plan.

“They thought he filled both those cans and later planted them in the back of Ashley's SUV. This is looking like premeditation now to you.”
— Lester Holt [69:02]

11. Confession and Sentencing

Plea Deal and Impact ([79:34–84:41])
- With mounting evidence, James agrees to plead guilty to second-degree murder in exchange for a lighter sentence.
- The victim’s family delivers powerful impact statements; the judge sentences James to life, eligible for parole in 20 years.
- The sentence is record-setting in Canada for someone with no prior record; contact with his children is barred until they turn 18.

“The judge gave James Schwam life in prison with a chance of parole in 20 years. He will be 58. It's the longest sentence in Canadian history for a person with no prior record.”
— Lester Holt [84:41]

12. Aftermath and Legacy

Healing, Memorial, and the Sunflower Fund ([85:15–87:20])
- Ashley’s loved ones hold a memorial event and establish a fund for children affected by domestic violence (“The Sunflower Fund”).
- Her children are being raised by family and appear to be thriving.

“The Sunflower Fund is for children... victims of domestic violence and abuse. And it's to help them with their camps and their therapy and all of that.”
— Lindsay Milnes [86:17]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the seriousness of the homicide:
"That's like a whole new level of evil."
— Lester Holt [03:14], reiterated by Jeremy Schiffman [64:28]
On forensic confirmation of murder:
"Ashley did not die in the car fire. There is no soot in the airways and there was no carbon monoxide in her blood... she died from neck compression."
— Forensic Expert [32:18]
On community and police disbelief:
"If he's faking, he deserves an Oscar."
— Officer to detectives about James’s apparent grief [33:24]
On the investigation process:
"As we go about our investigation, the things on the side that he didn't do it start to disappear. And the things that on the side that he did, it starts to get longer."
— Detective Sean Glassford [56:37]
On the justice process:
"It was just so cowardly done."
— Ian Milnes, victim's father, on James’s actions [83:21]
On moving forward:
"We have to move on, right? And she would not want us sitting here being upset."
— Lindsay Milnes [86:56]

Important Timelines & Timestamps

[03:58–04:55] – Discovery of the burning SUV and Ashley’s remains.
[17:32; 22:14; 34:43] – Detectives discuss red flags and why the scene looks staged.
[35:45–36:38] – “Running Man” appears on CCTV.
[38:49–43:54] – Affair comes to light and impact on marriage is discussed.
[47:01–48:47] – James's alibi begins to unravel; security cam experiment proves absence.
[52:19–54:45] – timeline reconstructions: failed run/bike experiments to check if James could return in time.
[59:10–61:00] – Evidence of staging: texts, clothing, and the lighter with his initials.
[61:08–62:24] – Arrest of James Schwam and the effect on his children.
[65:15–66:23] – Community and media reaction.
[71:04–71:49] – Discovery of mother’s car being used as a getaway vehicle.
[79:34–84:41] – Guilty plea, courtroom impact, and sentencing.
[85:15–87:20] – Memorial, The Sunflower Fund, and family healing.

Episode Tone & Language

The tone is investigative, somber, and compassionate, with moments of shock and empathy as the full extent of the betrayal and premeditation becomes clear.
Speaker attribution is clear, with candid, emotional responses from family members, detectives, and friends, reflecting their shock, dismay, and, ultimately, commitment to memorializing Ashley.

Useful for Newcomers

This summary captures the chronological development and dramatic turns in the investigation, presenting the full arc from accident to murder conviction. Key insights, quotes, evidence, and emotional peaks are provided, rendering the story accessible and resonant even for those who haven’t listened to the podcast.

For further detail, listen for these key timestamps:

[14:06–16:16] – Background on the family and community.
[32:14–32:52] – Forensic pathologist's critical findings.
[59:10–61:00] – Discovery of incriminating evidence in the burned vehicle.
[79:34–81:56] – James’s plea and courtroom developments.
[85:15–87:20] – The family’s initiative for domestic violence victims.

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Transcript732 lines

[00:00]
Lester Holt
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[00:58]
Lindsay Milnes
Corporation member Finra and SIPC.
[01:01]
Lester Holt
Tonight on Dateline.
[01:03]
Carrie Dyson
Ashley was just a really special mom. Nothing came between her and her kids.
[01:10]
Lindsay Milnes
She was a sister, an aunt, a friend. He said she had been in a car accident and I just remember screaming.
[01:20]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He was a fire captain. His wife died in a fiery car crash.
[01:24]
Lester Holt
The single dad now raising two children.
[01:28]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
This was a man truly grieving.
[01:31]
Detective Sean Glassford
The fire itself was strange. It wasn't a crash that somebody should have died in. Was it something else? Was it murder?
[01:40]
Lindsay Milnes
None of us would have thought this was going to happen to her.
[01:44]
Lester Holt
A secret comes out.
[01:45]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Yes, there had been an affair.
[01:48]
Lester Holt
This takes the case in a new direction. Other possible suspects.
[01:52]
Detective Sean Glassford
Right. We have a video that shows a person running from the crash. We call him Running Man.
[02:01]
Lester Holt
Find this Running Man. Find your killer. A picture perfect couple. A mystery killer. What clues lie buried in the snowy Blue mountains? I'm Lester Holt and this is dateline. Andrea Canning returns to her her hometown for Running Man. In the silence of this once happy home. Photos reveal a life frozen in time. Christmas lights on the banister, a stuffed animal with the tag still on.
[02:45]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It all looked very normal.
[02:48]
Lester Holt
What they don't show is the beautiful family that lived here. James and Ashley Schwam and their two young children.
[02:55]
Lindsay Milnes
Every day was like a dance party.
[02:58]
Forensic Expert
There was love, laughter, very well adjusted family.
[03:04]
Lester Holt
But everything was not as it seemed. There were secrets behind those walls.
[03:09]
Detective Sean Glassford
There were. Yeah, absolutely.
[03:14]
Lester Holt
That's like a whole new level of evil.
[03:16]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's horrible.
[03:21]
Lester Holt
Our story begins in the town of the Blue Mountains, a Picturesque ski destination 2 hours northwest of Toronto. It's where I grew up and where I got My start as a reporter doing this series, I've learned a lot about education over the last few weeks. Police are aggressively investigating the fatal collision, looking for any clues. I never expected to cover a date line here. It was January 26, 2023, just a few miles from my childhood home. On a frigid, stormy morning just before dawn, volunteer firefighter Jordan Hegerman was driving to his job as a groomer on the ski slopes.
[03:58]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
There was not a single car on the road that morning. So as soon as I turned onto Arrowhead Road here, I noticed a glow.
[04:07]
Lester Holt
What did you think?
[04:08]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I had a feeling that it was a fire right away.
[04:11]
Lester Holt
And you had just joined the volunteer fire department here?
[04:14]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yes.
[04:15]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So as soon as I approached the bottom of the hill here, I could see the flames coming over the embankment.
[04:22]
Detective Sean Glassford
So as I drove up to the.
[04:24]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Top of the hill, I could see.
[04:26]
Lester Holt
Down that it was a car.
[04:27]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That's when I made my 911 call.
[04:29]
Carrie Dyson
Signiform.
[04:30]
Lindsay Milnes
What was your merchant's name?
[04:31]
Detective Sean Glassford
Hi, there's a fire top of Arrowhead.
[04:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Road, around the bend.
[04:35]
Detective Sean Glassford
It looks like a car went off.
[04:37]
Lester Holt
The road and it seems fully engulfed.
[04:39]
Detective Sean Glassford
I'm not sure if there's passengers inside.
[04:41]
Carrie Dyson
And you don't know if there's anybody around?
[04:42]
Lester Holt
I have no idea.
[04:43]
Lindsay Milnes
Okay.
[04:44]
Carrie Dyson
No footprints.
[04:46]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's too dark to tell where I was standing. And the car was about 75ft down off the road. I could feel that intense heat.
[04:55]
Lester Holt
Oh, wow. These were. These flames were high. Yeah, about 30ft high. He knew from his training that was unusual for a car fire. Did you fear that someone could be in there?
[05:06]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I did for sure.
[05:08]
Lester Holt
That's scary.
[05:08]
Ian Milnes
Yeah.
[05:10]
Lester Holt
Tim Newton, a captain with the town of the Blue Mountains Fire Department, was jolted out of sleep.
[05:15]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
The tones go off on my radio around 6am that morning.
[05:20]
Lester Holt
So you arrive here, what's the first thing you see?
[05:23]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So as we arrive on scene, I can see over to my left hand.
[05:25]
Lester Holt
Side coming up the hill.
[05:26]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It was a fully involved car. It was fully engulfed in flames.
[05:31]
Lester Holt
Tim and his fellow firefighters raced to put out the flames.
[05:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We didn't have good visibility. I knew as soon as I could. I wanted to try to get a member of the crew to open at least the driver's side door and do a sweep of the seat. We conducted that and didn't find anything.
[05:48]
Lester Holt
No driver inside the charred Mitsubishi suv. It appeared they'd escaped the flames. But when the firefighters checked the passenger side, a different story.
[05:57]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
And that's when we found the body.
[05:59]
Lester Holt
Could you not even tell if it was a man? Or a woman. You could not tell it was that bad.
[06:04]
Forensic Expert
Yeah.
[06:05]
Lester Holt
How did it appear to you that this car had ended up down there?
[06:10]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Based on the condition of the guardrail not being damaged on first inspection, the only explanation was that it had made its way through. Through this very narrow section into the gully below.
[06:19]
Lester Holt
You thought it just slid off the road in these conditions, that it was.
[06:22]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Coming down the road, lost control, and.
[06:25]
Lester Holt
Went through this opening. Yeah, and kept going. Firefighters were perplexed. Where was the driver? Police officers now on scene were asking the same question. They notified Detective Sergeant Jason Lloyd and Detective Constable Jeremy Schiffman with the Ontario Provincial Police, also known as the opp.
[06:45]
Forensic Expert
I was advised from the sergeant on the scene that they had a dead body inside the vehicle. And I just asked them to send me some digital photographs to my desk so that I could have a better idea of what it is that they were addressing at the scene.
[06:57]
Lester Holt
What's your first reaction when you see these photos?
[07:00]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That there's one person in the car and the body was in the footwell area on that passenger side.
[07:06]
Lester Holt
They thought there might be an explanation for how the body got there.
[07:10]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We looked at the angle, gravity, and the fact that the fire department was putting the fire out and that those hoses would be pushing in that general direction.
[07:19]
Lester Holt
So the force of the water from the fire hose could have pushed the body into the passenger seat.
[07:25]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Yeah, along with gravity.
[07:26]
Lester Holt
Whose car is it? How quickly do you figure that out?
[07:31]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So because of it becoming a fatal collision, the OPP's Traffic Reconstruction Team came out. They found the license plate in the snow, had been clipped off the vehicle when it went down into the ditch. We checked the license plate, and it came back to James Schwam.
[07:45]
Lester Holt
Motor vehicle records showed James Schwam lived 10 miles west of the Blue Mountains in the town of Collingwood. Detective Schiffman, along with two uniformed officers, headed straight to his house and rang the doorbell, but no one was home.
[07:59]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So I went back to my car, and I did what a lot of us do, and I pulled out my phone, and I started my own quick search on Facebook. And I. I found James Schwam's Facebook profile. His profile picture there has him on the front of a fire truck with his family.
[08:16]
Lester Holt
James was a firefighter. Based on the photo, it looked like he worked at a station just outside of Toronto. The detective had a friend who also worked there.
[08:24]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So I called her. Brittany Holmberg. I'm like, do you know James? And she said, yes, I know James. The Mitsubishi car is his car.
[08:33]
Lester Holt
Take us to that moment where your phone rings and it's your friend, you know, from the opp.
[08:38]
Carrie Dyson
Yeah. He was asking me immediately about James Schwam. You work with James Schwam?
[08:44]
Lindsay Milnes
Yes.
[08:44]
Carrie Dyson
You're friends with James Schwam?
[08:46]
Lester Holt
Yes.
[08:46]
Carrie Dyson
Would there be any reason that he'd be up near the ski hill? And I was like, yeah, there's some fresh snow to be had and he's probably out skiing or probably trying to get out there really early.
[08:58]
Lester Holt
Then the detective told her about the accident.
[09:01]
Carrie Dyson
I'm sorry to tell you this, but we have reason to believe that James Schwam has passed. I remember hanging up and just having a panic attack. Like had a full blown panic attack.
[09:12]
Lester Holt
She tried calling James but he didn't answer.
[09:16]
Carrie Dyson
So I left this voicemail and it was like the saddest thing ever.
[09:19]
Lester Holt
What did you say?
[09:21]
Carrie Dyson
I don't remember. I was like sobbing at this point and I just said, if you're there, pick up. Like people think you're dead and I hope you're not dead.
[09:29]
Lester Holt
Oh my. That is.
[09:30]
Carrie Dyson
It sucks.
[09:31]
Lester Holt
It's a horrible call to make and voicemail to leave because you're so in the dark. Time to track down James wife. As what they would find would lead to more questions about how that SUV plummeted off the side of the road and who was inside.
[09:47]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
In one of the videos, it's crystal clear that it's a person running and they've got a backpack on and in the background you can actually see the fire from the car.
[09:57]
Lester Holt
Something was revealed right here on this beach.
[10:01]
Ian Milnes
Happened just down there a couple hundred yards.
[10:04]
Lindsay Milnes
He said, I just want you to know that you will spend the rest of your life paying for this.
[10:08]
Lester Holt
Far more diabolical than you ever imagined.
[10:11]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
What we uncovered afterwards made it sick.
[10:27]
Lester Holt
Police believed 38 year old James Schwam had died in a fiery crash. They needed to talk to James's wife. So you're going to go find Ashley?
[10:36]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Correct. We want to let her know that there's been a crash.
[10:40]
Lester Holt
Detective Schiffman learned from James coworker Brittany that Ashley worked for a high end home builder. So they headed to Ashley's office.
[10:48]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
But when we get there, we don't find Ashley. She hadn't shown up for work that day and very out of character. She missed a 9 o' clock meeting.
[10:56]
Lester Holt
Is your mindset now shifting?
[10:58]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Very much so. So James wasn't at home. Ashley didn't show up for work. A few minutes later, Brittany calls me back and says, jer, I found him.
[11:08]
Lester Holt
She found James.
[11:08]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
She Found James.
[11:10]
Carrie Dyson
I called him and he answered. At this point I felt like you're just talking to a ghost. But I was just so happy that he was still alive.
[11:18]
Lester Holt
But they still hadn't found Ashley. Brittany told Detective Schiffman that James was at his part time job at Walker's, a small engine repair business.
[11:27]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
And then we went to Walker's.
[11:29]
Lester Holt
He's there, he's there.
[11:31]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We asked to speak to him in private in the back and leave the floor area to a smaller room.
[11:37]
Lester Holt
The officers broke the news that his car had been in an accident and they believed his wife was inside.
[11:42]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
James became emotional. He was crying, his face was running, his eyes were running, his nose was running.
[11:49]
Lester Holt
I mean, you've just told him his wife is very likely dead.
[11:53]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That's right. There was no doubt in my mind or his mind at that time that that was Ashley in that car.
[12:00]
Lester Holt
When do you first hear that there has been a car crash?
[12:04]
Ian Milnes
02:15 on the in the afternoon, a phone rings and hi, how are you? He's in tears.
[12:11]
Lester Holt
James first call was to Ashley's father at his home in the Bahamas. Ian Milnes is a retired bond trader. His nickname for his daughter was aj.
[12:19]
Ian Milnes
Then he says that AJ was in a car crash. I sit up and scream through the phone, what are you talking about? And I said I'm on my way home.
[12:31]
Carrie Dyson
Oh my God.
[12:32]
Ian Milnes
And then is when I jump into action. I phoned around here to get a jet and I'm gone.
[12:40]
Lester Holt
While heading to Canada, Ian started making calls to his family. Ashley was one of four children. She had two older sisters and a younger brother. He reached all of them except one.
[12:51]
Ian Milnes
After the screaming and crying and said get over to Lindsay's house and tell.
[12:55]
Lester Holt
Her Lindsay Milnes is Ashley's sister.
[12:59]
Lindsay Milnes
I was in my bedroom and I looked out the window and I saw my brother in law's car pull up. And then my dad was FaceTiming me.
[13:11]
Carrie Dyson
And.
[13:14]
Lindsay Milnes
So I answered. I knew something was wrong when I saw my older sister get out of the car.
[13:19]
Lester Holt
You just knew?
[13:20]
Lindsay Milnes
I didn't know it was her. I knew something was wrong. And he said we lost someone today. And I just remember screaming. And I asked him what happened. And he had said she had been in a car accident. It was terrible. That was one of the most painful experiences I've ever had.
[13:44]
Lester Holt
They all headed over to Ashley and James house.
[13:47]
Lindsay Milnes
I walked in the door and Jamie was standing there and I gave him a big hug. It was a long evening.
[13:56]
Lester Holt
They'd known James or Jamie for years. He and Ashley had met in their early 20s at Craigleith, a private ski club in the Blue Mountains. Both of their families were members.
[14:07]
Lindsay Milnes
My brother was friends with Jamie, so I think it was just they all ran around in the same circle of friends.
[14:15]
Lester Holt
Both families were prominent. James mother had been an executive with Warner Brothers. Ashley's dad made his fortune in finance. James and Ashley shared a passion for hiking and exercise.
[14:27]
Lindsay Milnes
They were a great match.
[14:28]
Lester Holt
The love of this area, our families.
[14:31]
Lindsay Milnes
Knew each other, so yeah, it, it made sense.
[14:35]
Lester Holt
After a few years of dating, in 2012, they married in a fairy tale wedding at craigleith. James was 28. Ashley was 30. Did you walk her down the aisle?
[14:45]
Ian Milnes
I walked her down the aisle like the great dad. Yeah. And you know, it was fun. It was nice.
[14:52]
Lindsay Milnes
It was everything she wanted and more. I mean, she came in in a horse and carriage. She was the picture perfect bride. Glowing. It was a good day.
[15:04]
Lester Holt
They'd been living in Toronto, but shortly before their wedding, they decided to leave the big city to be near the Blue Mountains, nestled against Georgian Bay, part of the Great Lakes. It's a place I know very well. My grandfather founded this ski area in 1941 and I grew up right here on the mountain. Generations have come here to make memories. Weekends filled with sledding and hot cocoa. James and Ashley, they moved here looking for a simpler life, A close knit community. It wasn't long before they had children. First a boy, then a girl. In 2018, the family moved into this Tudor in an upscale neighborhood in Collingwood.
[15:43]
Forensic Expert
Look down.
[15:44]
Lester Holt
They juggled parenthood with their thriving careers. James was promoted to captain at the fire department. Ashley oversaw the building of luxury homes with an eye for interior design.
[15:56]
Carrie Dyson
She just had this talent of seeing what something could be and really making things come to life.
[16:04]
Lester Holt
Carrie Dyson was one of Ashley's best friends. They too met at Craiglee Ski Club.
[16:09]
Carrie Dyson
We both liked to ski, loved to hike, play golf.
[16:14]
Lester Holt
And they had children around the same age.
[16:17]
Carrie Dyson
Ashley was just a really, really special mom. She was so dedicated and so loving. Nothing came between her and her kids. She would do anything for them. And if they needed something, the rest of the world stopped and she would be there for them.
[16:35]
Lester Holt
Carrie will never forget the moment she heard about the crash.
[16:38]
Carrie Dyson
A friend of mine called me the evening that it happened to tell me that she had passed away in a car accident.
[16:48]
Lester Holt
Devastating.
[16:50]
Carrie Dyson
It was terrible. You can't brace yourself from hearing for hearing something like that and just to have it so sudden.
[17:04]
Lester Holt
While reality set in for Ashley's friends and family, investigators were Just getting started.
[17:10]
Forensic Expert
We had a reconstructionist team up there. They're still in the midst of doing their investigation. We have, you know, the body and the vehicle being transported up to the center of forensic science at this moment.
[17:22]
Lester Holt
To Detective Schiffman, something felt off. He wondered why Ashley was out on the road so early on a snowy icy morning and why did the car burst into flames.
[17:33]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We had no evidence of anything afoul happening but it felt weird. There was no breaking, there was no steering, there was no skid marks in the, in the snow and it really looked like it was pointed right there. Intentionally driven off.
[17:51]
Lindsay Milnes
Vrbo Last minute deals make chasing fresh mountain powder incredibly easy.
[17:55]
Lester Holt
With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can easily get epic pow.
[17:59]
Lindsay Milnes
Freshies, first tracks and more.
[18:02]
Lester Holt
No need for months of planning.
[18:04]
Lindsay Milnes
In fact, you can't even plan.
[18:06]
Lester Holt
Pow Pow is on its own schedule.
[18:09]
Lindsay Milnes
Thankfully somewhere in the world it's always snowing. All you have to do is use.
[18:14]
Lester Holt
The last minute filter on the app to book a last minute minute deal on a slope side private rental home.
[18:19]
Lindsay Milnes
Book now@vervo.com if you're looking for new ways to get ahead, then you're our kind of person.
[18:27]
Lester Holt
We're Udemy and we help learners like you upskill in AI productivity, leadership and management and more. Learn at your own pace from real world experts.
[18:39]
Lindsay Milnes
You can also prep for certifications that.
[18:41]
Lester Holt
Show employers what you know, upskill for the career you want@udemy.com now back to.
[18:49]
Lindsay Milnes
Your regularly scheduled listening.
[18:52]
Lester Holt
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it but I.
[18:56]
Carrie Dyson
Don'T trust much of anything.
[18:59]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's the rage bait.
[19:02]
Lester Holt
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
[19:06]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We got clear facts.
[19:07]
Lester Holt
Maybe we could calm down a little bit.
[19:12]
Detective Sean Glassford
NBC news brings you clear reporting.
[19:14]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
[19:30]
Lester Holt
The day after 40 year old Ashley Schwam was found dead in her charred suv, her father Ian Miltz took charge.
[19:37]
Ian Milnes
Were into protection mode.
[19:39]
Lester Holt
He made sure his son in law James and their two small children were surrounded by family. Ian gathered everyone together in his chalet at the mountain. He was especially worried about James, thrust overnight into the role of grieving single dad.
[19:53]
Ian Milnes
He went right in my arms crying, saying I'm so sorry. And I just, I mean, I don't know, you know, I said jamie, whatever we can do, we're here. He's a fish out of water dad with two kids and now he's got to deal with that and we've got to Help him and all this stuff.
[20:09]
Lester Holt
Detectives were now piecing together the hours leading up to the crash. When they talked to James at the shop, he told them it was just a normal morning. The children, who were 9 and 6, were asleep. He'd left the house at 5:14am to walk the dog.
[20:24]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He didn't have his phone with him, so when he got back about an hour and 15 minutes later, he had a text from Ashley saying, hey, I went for a hike. The kids seem fine. I'll basically see you later.
[20:35]
Lester Holt
A hike he thought Ashley had planned the night before.
[20:38]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
She wanted to go out to the.
[20:41]
Lester Holt
Ski hills near their ski club, about a 10 mile drive. James pulled out his phone and showed them home security video from that morning.
[20:49]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
One was him going for a walk with the dog, walk up the driveway and turning down the road. And then a few minutes later, there was a video of the Mitsubishi pulling out of the garage. He went one way and she went the other.
[21:03]
Lester Holt
James also showed detectives other texts he said Ashley sent that morning. One read, ew, I left the gas cans in my car and it smells. I have to drive with the windows open and it's so cold out.
[21:15]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I had a text that talked about gas. It links to a big fire and then maybe that's a reasonable explanation.
[21:19]
Lester Holt
That's a piece of the puzzle right there.
[21:21]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It was a piece of the puzzle. And Ashley told me this.
[21:23]
Lester Holt
Another text suggested why Ashley might have lost control of her car.
[21:27]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
She had vertigo. She wasn't able to hike and she was just going to come home and work out in the basement.
[21:32]
Lester Holt
Did Ashley suffer from some type of vertigo?
[21:35]
Lindsay Milnes
Yes. Yes, she did. I mean, she would call and complain and talk about it. She had a vertigo attack in the grocery store and my brother had to go get her.
[21:43]
Lester Holt
To the family, everything pointed to a tragic accident. Accidents, unfortunately, they happen everywhere, but we know that they can happen here with these roads. Yeah.
[21:52]
Lindsay Milnes
And there was a snowstorm the night before.
[21:54]
Lester Holt
This is just really bad luck.
[21:56]
Lindsay Milnes
That's what we thought.
[21:57]
Lester Holt
I know firsthand just how treacherous these roads can get in the winter. My own grandfather died in an icy crash not too far from here. But for investigators, something wasn't sitting right about the scene. Clues that were telling them Ashley's death may not have been an accident.
[22:14]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
There was no braking, there was no steering. There was no skid marks in the, in the snow leading to it. It was, they could tell that the tires were rolling as it went off the road down the embankment. And it really looked like it was pointed right there.
[22:28]
Lester Holt
Intentionally driven off you describe it as threading a needle, almost threading a needle, because that's such a narrow opening.
[22:33]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
There was not a lot of space between the guardrail and where these rocks are, like this rock face.
[22:41]
Lester Holt
The team also told them it was a survivable crash. And there was more.
[22:46]
Forensic Expert
Another thing that came to light was that one of the witnesses initially came by the scene. They thought that there could be track marks in the snow in the area of the road that curved there.
[22:54]
Lester Holt
You mean like footprints?
[22:56]
Forensic Expert
Well, and that's just it. We weren't sure. There was a footmark of some sort of thing in the snow. We didn't have, like, what we would be looking at, an actual footprint with tread markings. It just seemed as though there could have been tracks in the snow.
[23:08]
Lester Holt
Could someone have run away from the crash and left Ashley inside the car? Investigators suspicions were growing, and they weren't the only ones. A few days after the crash, Ashley's big sister had a feeling she couldn't shake.
[23:21]
Lindsay Milnes
I knew something, like, really wasn't right, and I didn't. I mean, I thought I literally was going crazy, she said.
[23:29]
Lester Holt
It was like Ashley was in her gut screaming for her to do something. On an impulse, Lindsay drove over to the police station and spoke to a detective.
[23:37]
Lindsay Milnes
I said, I just need you to find her phone. I said, if you find her phone, then you'll find things on it you.
[23:45]
Lester Holt
Need to see, like, more like phone records.
[23:47]
Lindsay Milnes
I just. The first thing I think I had said, if you can show me one text or tell me that you've spoken to one person that she was supposed to meet going hiking, then that will be that.
[24:02]
Lester Holt
It's enough.
[24:02]
Lindsay Milnes
Yeah, it's enough for me, because then I know she was actually going. I said, but if you can't. I said, it doesn't make sense why AJ would be hiking at that hour in the dark by herself, because she was scared of her own shadow.
[24:14]
Lester Holt
Detectives never found the phone, but they were able to access Ashley's hiking history. She used a fitness tracking app called Strava.
[24:23]
Forensic Expert
And so we were able to look through her Strava accounts to find out when she would do her hikes. One of the interesting things that did come out of her history was that she was never up at Craigleith ski Club at 5:50 in the morning to go hiking at any time.
[24:39]
Lester Holt
They could see that her hikes were always close to home and started after 7am so it's not a smoking gun, but it sure does look suspicious.
[24:47]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It certainly does.
[24:48]
Lester Holt
They needed to talk to James again.
[24:50]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Was this argument more than what we're talking about here? No, it's just a dicker.
[25:09]
Lester Holt
Ashley Schwam's neighbors were devastated at the news of her death. Ann Lockhart, a friend of mine from high school, lived next door. Tragic. And the whole neighborhood was reeling in it and the disbelief and, you know, the heartbreak for these kids and for this husband. She saw James the morning of the crash, before anyone knew what had happened. I vividly remember looking out the front window and I saw James. James walking the children to school. Now their lives were upside down. She wanted to give them space. She couldn't understand why police weren't doing the same. I was walking my dog at night. It was around 9 o', clock, and there was a police car sitting at the end of our street. It just was an eerie feeling. And I. I couldn't understand what's going on. She had.
[25:59]
Lindsay Milnes
It was just a car accident.
[26:00]
Lester Holt
Are you all starting to talk like, hey, is there something more here that we're just unaware of? Yes. The neighbors didn't know that police were taking a closer look at the accident and had called in a veteran detective. This is a small area, you know, and you've been doing this a long time. There's a higher level of experience there.
[26:18]
Detective Sean Glassford
I get assigned to obvious homicides and also suspicious deaths. And this would have been a suspicious death.
[26:26]
Lester Holt
Detective Inspector Sean Glassford directed the team to get on the record statements from key people like James. So you asked James to come in for an interview?
[26:35]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He had spoken to us at the. At Walker Small Motors, but it wasn't a formal statement. And now we needed that formal statement from him.
[26:42]
Lester Holt
Two days after his wife's death, James was sitting across from Detective Schiffman, who immediately let him know they had suspicions about the crash.
[26:51]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
The worst thing that any person could have done in this situation is to have killed her. I have a lot of questions, and that's why you're here. I need you to sort of just take yourself back to Thursday morning. Okay. My alarm went off in the bedroom upstairs with Ash.
[27:13]
Lester Holt
He recounted a conversation he and Ashley had about leaving their kids alone while he walked the dog and she went out on a hike.
[27:20]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I know. That morning, Ash was upset that I was going further. We're trying to get better using our calendars to plan stuff. And I guess we talked about how important it's for each time at all times, which is a little argument in the bedroom.
[27:35]
Ian Milnes
Dog.
[27:36]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We won't.
[27:36]
Ian Milnes
For the walk.
[27:37]
Lester Holt
Argument. The detective wanted to hear more.
[27:40]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Was this argument more than what we're talking about here. No, there was just a scheduling thing.
[27:49]
Forensic Expert
Me taking for a walk and her.
[27:50]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Wanting to go somewhere in the morning or wanting to do her hike before work. But his childhood, there's nothing. It was just nothing to it. Okay, so to you there was nothing. This was just. This was okay. This wasn't a big deal. Yeah. It wasn't just a digger.
[28:06]
Lester Holt
The detective moved on and asked James about the route he took walking the dog.
[28:11]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We've come out around Krista. Well, I gave him a pen and said, here, trace your, your route for me. And he did. I took the trail. Through here over to the crosswalk. He accounted for about an hour and 15 minutes. And this is in town. There's cameras. I'm like, all right, this is great, James. We'll find you here and then really we can rule you out as being somebody who had anything to do with that crash at that time. Do you know if she was supposed to meet anybody that morning? I'm sorry, I don't.
[28:48]
Lester Holt
He pivoted, asking James if he knew of anyone who might have had a grudge against Ashley.
[28:53]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
She had a contractor into the family chalet to do some repairs and they had an argument, a disagreement about how much that was going to cost.
[29:01]
Lester Holt
The detective planned to track that man down. As he wrapped up the interview, he asked James if they could take a look at some things.
[29:09]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
In this course of the investigation, there's going to be things that we want to look at. Picard's, Marlowe, your phone might be another. Of course. Yeah. And to provide us his blink camera system so we could download those images as well. And he agreed.
[29:23]
Lester Holt
This is like a doorbell.
[29:24]
Forensic Expert
Yeah, doorbell, blink camera.
[29:26]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
The other thing that the team would like to do is to just go into your home. Yeah, of course, absolutely. He gave us his phone, he gave us his blink. He's invited us into his home to take a look around, which is what.
[29:37]
Lester Holt
You would expect, like, from someone who has nothing to hide. Take whatever you want.
[29:42]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That's right. He's an emotional wreck. Just get myself composed and then someone come through the door and it's going to be a roller coaster of emotions.
[29:51]
Carrie Dyson
Yeah.
[29:53]
Lester Holt
And he's done. When the interview was over, Schiffman and his team drove to James's place to begin their search.
[30:08]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
And we do the walk through through his house. And his house looks normal, clean. It all looked very normal.
[30:15]
Lester Holt
As he left, the detective wondered if he'd gone down a rabbit hole. Maybe Ashley's death was just a terrible accident.
[30:23]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I'm heading Back to the office. And Sean calls me. He says, where are you? I'm like, yeah, we've just left him. I'm coming back. He's like, get back here now.
[30:32]
Lester Holt
He was sure the boss was about to shoot. Shut down the investigation. Like, everything checks out.
[30:37]
Forensic Expert
That's not why he wanted him to come back.
[30:40]
Lester Holt
The pathologist had the results of Ashley's autopsy. Did your jaw just drop in that moment?
[30:46]
Forensic Expert
It did. And she added to the fact that she would have been dead before the fire was even lit in the car.
[31:05]
Lester Holt
James Schwam's friends were worried about him. In the days after Ashley's death.
[31:09]
Detective Sean Glassford
I was like, let's be supportive.
[31:11]
Lester Holt
Jordan Paris and others reached out to him to offer condolences.
[31:15]
Detective Sean Glassford
This is just me saying that I'm thinking of you, praying for your comfort, praying for your, I'm here and if you need me, I'm here, but please, no stress.
[31:24]
Lester Holt
But James rarely responded.
[31:26]
Carrie Dyson
I'd reached out, like, many times, just checking in constantly and trying to, like, go over there and help him out and reconnect.
[31:33]
Lester Holt
They assumed he was deep into his grief.
[31:35]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Can I get you anything else? I want to take a break.
[31:39]
Lester Holt
But unlike James's friends, Detective Schiffman was not convinced Ashley had died in an accident. As he interviewed James about the crash, Detective Lloyd was two hours away in Toronto waiting for the results of Ashley's autopsy. The body was very badly.
[31:55]
Forensic Expert
It was badly burned.
[31:57]
Lester Holt
The autopsy lasted all day. When it was over, the pathologist pulled the detective into an office and she.
[32:03]
Forensic Expert
Posed the question, like, are you guys homicide detectives? And I'm like, yeah, we are. And she said, well, that's good because I really believe you have a homicide. And it was actually I was. I was taken back by it.
[32:14]
Lester Holt
So chilling. She said, ashley did not die in the car fire.
[32:18]
Forensic Expert
There is no soot in the airways and there was no carbon monoxide in her blood. And she explained to me that she died from neck compression. She had a broken neck and it.
[32:31]
Lester Holt
Wasn'T broken during the crash. The doctor was sure of it. So what was it?
[32:36]
Forensic Expert
It was caused by either ligature strangulation or manual strangulation. So whether it was done with a strap or a belt or did your.
[32:44]
Lester Holt
Jaw just drop in that moment?
[32:46]
Forensic Expert
It did. And she added to the fact that she would have been dead before the fire was even lit in the car.
[32:52]
Lester Holt
In the span of two days, Ashley's death had gone from tragic accident to clear cut murder.
[32:58]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We know the vehicle's gone to the ditch. We know that there's a Fire. We know that there's the dead body who was driving that car. We know it wasn't Ashley. We're confident it's not Ashley.
[33:08]
Lester Holt
Of course, the police wondered if it could be her husband. But James had already shown them doorbell footage from his house that morning. He left to walk the dog. Ashley's car pulled out shortly after. On top of that, he'd given them everything they asked for. His grief seemed genuine.
[33:24]
Detective Sean Glassford
In fact, one of the officers said, if he's faking, he deserves an Oscar.
[33:28]
Lester Holt
You had no idea the road you were about to go down with this case?
[33:32]
Detective Sean Glassford
No, not at all.
[33:34]
Lester Holt
Their first hurdle was keeping a lid on what they were finding. They didn't want word getting out that this was now a murder investigation. But Ashley's dad wanted an update. They kept things vague and didn't reveal the results of her autopsy.
[33:48]
Ian Milnes
They came over, I think there's three of them. So we're all sitting in our little living room area, and they said, I don't want to get you riled, but we see some inconsistencies. It's a Saturday, two days after inconsistencies. Well, like things just don't add up. I immediately jump into, what are you talking about? What are you thinking?
[34:06]
Lester Holt
So the police are. So they're protecting everyone.
[34:08]
Ian Milnes
They're just saying, everyone, cool it. Let us work, and let's figure out exactly what happened.
[34:14]
Lester Holt
By then, police were already knocking on doors in the Schwam's neighborhood and beyond. A girlfriend said to me, did you get the police ring your doorbell last night? A lot of the neighbors had the police come to their house asking if they have surveillance video. We live in a video world. Cameras everywhere, Doorbell cameras, security cameras. Is that one of the first things you do is say, let's find out if we can see cars coming and going around the time of the accident. Cause you have a really good timeline of when this happened.
[34:43]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Absolutely.
[34:45]
Lester Holt
In particular, officers looked for cameras along the 10 mile route from Ashley's house to the crash site, searching for her car. They quickly hit pay dirt at a ski club in town not far from that ditch. You find video here at the alpine ski club that seems to be connecting to your investigation.
[35:02]
Detective Sean Glassford
That's right. We found a video of showing a car parked in the lot minutes before the.
[35:07]
Forensic Expert
The crash.
[35:08]
Detective Sean Glassford
Sitting here by itself. We can see what we believe to be somebody walking around. Walking around the car.
[35:13]
Lester Holt
Can you make out a face? You know, is it a man or a woman?
[35:16]
Detective Sean Glassford
Quite a distance. The camera's way back on the building. So it Just shows the parking lot.
[35:21]
Lester Holt
The police were pretty certain the car was Ashley's Mitsubishi. It had pulled into that lot at 5:42am and pulled out three minutes later at 5:45. At 5:54am, the volunteer firefighter who first spotted the crash called 911. Three minutes after that, at 5:57, this camera picked up a figure running away from the scene as the car was in flames.
[35:46]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's crystal clear that it's a person running and they've got a backpack on. And in the background you can actually see the fire from the car.
[35:56]
Lester Holt
So this video doesn't show a face either.
[36:00]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
No.
[36:02]
Lester Holt
Another camera farther from the crash caught what appeared to be the same person still running. Moments later, this camera caught the figure yet again. Neither offered a clear view of the runner's face.
[36:13]
Forensic Expert
That's part of the things when you're doing your canvas, you don't always get what you're looking for as far as really good finite resolution. So you work with what you have.
[36:23]
Lester Holt
So they had a faceless figure running from the crash site. Find this running man, find your killer, perhaps.
[36:31]
Detective Sean Glassford
Is it a guy out for a jog? At the same time, we don't know. All the set of facts come into play to build the picture as to.
[36:39]
Lester Holt
What happened, as to how Ashley's body came to rest in that ditch. Perhaps detectives needed to look closely at Ashley herself. When they did, their investigation got a lot more complicated.
[36:51]
Carrie Dyson
I had heard it from, from local friends very early on the affair. Yeah.
[36:55]
Lester Holt
So the rumors were starting to swirl.
[36:58]
Lindsay Milnes
Yeah, yeah.
[37:03]
Lester Holt
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[37:32]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I'm Julio Vaqueiro, anchor of Noticias Telemundo. You can watch Dateline, the hit true crime series on Telemundo. And now you can listen to Dateline as a podcast. Stories of love and betrayal, of secrets.
[37:45]
Lester Holt
Revealed of the men and women who.
[37:47]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Stand between evil and justice. Every twist and turn can now be heard in Spanish. With new mysteries arriving every week, just search en espanol wherever you get your podcasts and start listening on the night before Halloween in 1975, 15 year old Martha Moxley was murdered, but police failed to make an arrest until in 2000 her one time neighbor Michael Skakel was arrested. He was also a cousin of the Kennedys. The Kennedy connection is the reason that most people know about this case. But the deeper I dug, the more I came to question everything I thought I knew. Search dead certain the Martha Moxley murder on Apple podcasts to listen to the latest episodes.
[38:30]
Detective Sean Glassford
Each week.
[38:40]
Lester Holt
While detectives were investigating Ashley Schwam's death, they heard something that pricked up their ears. Rumors around town about trouble in her marriage.
[38:49]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We had information that there had been an affair.
[38:52]
Lester Holt
Months earlier they learned Ashley had gotten involved with her boss Steve McDonald at the Home Building Company. A short lived romance that ended when his wife Alexandra discovered the affair.
[39:03]
Forensic Expert
When it was discovered In April of 2022, Ashley was actually visiting her father in the Bahamas.
[39:10]
Ian Milnes
She'd been here for a week with her girlfriends celebrating her 40th. She got a call that morning by disguise wife and said you were with my husband, the cheating bastard. If you do not tell your husband when he flies down today, I will.
[39:31]
Carrie Dyson
Oh.
[39:33]
Lester Holt
James and the kids arrived in the Bahamas just as Ashley's friends were leaving to go home.
[39:37]
Ian Milnes
Jamie comes with the kids and everything's bubbling and lovely and she says, let's take a walk on the beach.
[39:43]
Lester Holt
This is hard to imagine.
[39:45]
Ian Milnes
Frightening.
[39:47]
Lester Holt
Ian stayed back with the kids. Ashley and James went outside to talk in private. Something was revealed right here on this beach.
[39:55]
Ian Milnes
Happened just down there. A couple. That's when AJ told Jamie that she had had a. A one time affair with this guy. And that was a problem.
[40:09]
Lester Holt
Ian didn't think his son in law would be able to get past it.
[40:12]
Ian Milnes
Jamie's the kind of guy could never forget and I knew that the second he was sitting here talking to me about it.
[40:20]
Lester Holt
What did he say to you about it?
[40:21]
Ian Milnes
He wanted to know, did you know? Did you know? At this time we didn't have any idea. None, zero, zip.
[40:31]
Lester Holt
He understood. James shock with me.
[40:34]
Ian Milnes
I couldn't repair it if it happened to me. Telling you truthfully, I'm gone.
[40:40]
Lester Holt
Ashley waited a bit before telling her sister Lindsay. How do you find out about this, that this has happened?
[40:46]
Lindsay Milnes
I think it was three, four days after and she was crying. I remember her telling me. And my reaction was so. I mean, you screwed up. Yeah. I mean I'm your sister. I love you. This isn't gonna make me hate you.
[41:03]
Lester Holt
Affairs happen because something is usually, I.
[41:06]
Lindsay Milnes
Think maybe not great, maybe she was lonely, but I wasn't up here. So I don't know. It's one of those Things that I kind of wish I had asked her. But I remember I did say to her at the end of our conversation, I said, I just want you to know that you will spend the rest of your life paying for this.
[41:24]
Lester Holt
The weeks that followed were agony for the couple, privately and publicly, especially for James, a proud firefighter and leader.
[41:32]
Carrie Dyson
I had heard it from local friends.
[41:34]
Lester Holt
Very early on the affair. Yeah, the rumors were starting to swirl.
[41:38]
Lindsay Milnes
Yeah. Yeah.
[41:40]
Carrie Dyson
Just in the town. And I felt, like, horrible for. For him. I even noticed, like, a disconnect with him as a friend. And it was just, I think, because I knew what was going on in his personal life, and he didn't want to bring it up.
[41:57]
Lester Holt
Firefighter Jordan Paris remembers one day on the job when James was struggling.
[42:01]
Detective Sean Glassford
He had a moment in the live fire tower where he came to me, and he was like, straight up. You could tell his day was over. And I thought it was. Maybe he was injured, but he was like, no, I'm not injured. He sat in the stairs, and his eyes welt up. And he says, I'm having a rough time here. So I said, okay, what's happening? He says, there's a lot going on at home. I don't know. There's just things breaking down, and I gotta get some kind of help or.
[42:25]
Lester Holt
Something at home, like, with.
[42:26]
Detective Sean Glassford
Actually, that's all he said.
[42:28]
Lester Holt
Lindsey says the couple did seek help.
[42:31]
Lindsay Milnes
I think the first few months were hard for both of them, but, I mean, they were both hell bent on it working, and they wanted to. And so, you know, I think they did counseling separately. They did it together.
[42:43]
Lester Holt
Ashley wanted to save her marriage.
[42:45]
Lindsay Milnes
Absolutely. Absolutely. She loved those two kids. I mean, that. That was what she. She wanted her family back. She didn't want that to ruin it.
[42:54]
Lester Holt
In fact, they were still in counseling when Ashley died.
[42:57]
Ian Milnes
Dad, we're trying to fix. I said, if you can't fix it, you move out with the kids, you go to the chalet. Leave him the house. Just do it.
[43:06]
Lester Holt
You're there to support her 100%.
[43:09]
Ian Milnes
She's my AJ and I'm supporting both.
[43:13]
Lester Holt
James had been open about the affair with detectives. He said the counseling was going well.
[43:18]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
This was working for you guys? Yeah, absolutely working for us. I wish we did it before, but it's. It feels good. Yeah.
[43:25]
Lester Holt
He also told police that Ashley agreed to find a new job.
[43:28]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Part of the deal was that she would stop working.
[43:32]
Lester Holt
Ashley wanted things to work so much that she quit her job.
[43:36]
Lindsay Milnes
I remember when she told me, and I thought, great. I mean, you're Doing everything to make things right.
[43:44]
Lester Holt
But now she was dead, and detectives needed to know more about that affair. When you hear a detail like that, how does that now factor into your view on this case?
[43:54]
Detective Sean Glassford
It's another piece of the puzzle. It's just another part of the story. Obviously, we want to talk to the person that she had the affair with. We wanted to know where he was at the time of the crash.
[44:17]
Lester Holt
With the murder investigation into Ashley Schwam accelerating, Detective Glassford and his team created a war room, a whiteboard at the center.
[44:26]
Detective Sean Glassford
We jot things down just to keep track of things as we talk. We come up with things we'll need to do. There was a picture of Ashley beside the board, and we never lose focus that that's who we're working for. Also for her children and her family.
[44:41]
Lester Holt
One thing on their to do list was speak to Ashley's former boss. So Steve McDonald, the man she'd had the affair with. They learned he'd since gotten divorced.
[44:50]
Detective Sean Glassford
We need to determine if he had anything to do with her death or if he's innocent.
[44:55]
Lester Holt
Yeah, I mean, he could be very angry with her. She broke off the relationship to try to make things work with James.
[45:02]
Ian Milnes
Sure.
[45:03]
Detective Sean Glassford
Maybe there's something going on we don't even know about.
[45:05]
Lester Holt
Do you bring him in? Is that the next step? Do you bring in the.
[45:08]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah, we got ahold of him. He came in right away.
[45:11]
Lester Holt
What was his story?
[45:12]
Detective Sean Glassford
He was with a new girlfriend. He said he was with her at her place in Toronto. Then we went and got the videotape of the parking garage at her condo, and sure enough, his car's there. I think he had to pass in and out. And so we were able to prove that, too. We were very satisfied that he was somewhere else at the time of this death.
[45:31]
Lester Holt
They also questioned McDonald's now ex wife, Alexandra. She was angry with Ashley. She called her out on this Bahamas trip, told her to tell her husband or else she would.
[45:45]
Detective Sean Glassford
Absolutely. We checked into her as well. We found out she was on an airplane coming from a ski trip in Austria right at the time, literally when this happened. She had an alibi. She was in an airplane.
[45:56]
Lester Holt
Detectives were being careful not to have tunnel vision, looking into every possible suspect. They'd even checked out the consultation contractor, James said Ashley had a dispute with.
[46:06]
Detective Sean Glassford
There's some nasty emails back and forth. We interviewed that person as well and were quite satisfied they had nothing to do with Ashley's death.
[46:14]
Lester Holt
So detectives decided to take another look at James. His story about where he was at the Time Ashley's SUV went off the road and burst into flames. Never changed. And he accounted for every moment he was out that morning.
[46:27]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So just walk me through the route. And started to strike. Trace it. Okay, if you can. Sure.
[46:32]
Lester Holt
Remember, James had drawn the root of where he said he walked the dog.
[46:35]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I gave him a pen and said, here, trace your route for me.
[46:40]
Lester Holt
If he was being truthful, surely neighborhood security video would confirm his story. Would you say this investigation at this point is as much to rule him in as it is to rule him out?
[46:50]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah. If we found him walking the dog, then he didn't have anything to do with her death.
[46:55]
Lester Holt
Officers scoured through hours of footage and noticed something was missing or someone.
[47:02]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That canvas team that was now looking for his route, they don't find him.
[47:08]
Lester Holt
They didn't spot James anywhere. They wondered if perhaps the cameras simply weren't pointed in the right direction. To test it out, detectives Lloyd and Schiffman headed to the Schwam's neighborhood.
[47:19]
Forensic Expert
The two of us actually walked his route. We set off at 5:00'. Clock.
[47:24]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
5:14.
[47:24]
Forensic Expert
5:14. And we started at his house, and it was snowy just the same. And we walked the track that he said that he walked. The two of us this time.
[47:36]
Lester Holt
When they looked at the videos, they did see something themselves. There they are. Walking the route James said he took.
[47:43]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We're there.
[47:44]
Forensic Expert
But when we compare to the day that he walked it, he was not.
[47:48]
Lester Holt
So the absence of video, the absence of evidence is. Is not looking good for James Schwab. They thought back to a moment in his interview that now seemed telling.
[48:02]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I'd love to find someone who saw you there that morning. And then all those other questions which almost don't matter. Don't matter at all. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Sorry. I didn't then it. But together. This was a moment during the interview where he had a real visceral reaction. He had a tic with his lip and it twitched and it twitched. It became very evident that there was some kind of stressor going on. And he said at one point he didn't realize what we were going to do.
[48:33]
Lester Holt
What does that mean?
[48:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I don't think he thought we'd be checking his story. I think he thought he'd tell us what happened and we'd just believe him. He was a fire captain. He was a fellow emergency responder, and we would just accept that as the truth.
[48:50]
Lester Holt
Later, detective Lloyd put something else together that was telling. It was when police first went to James house.
[48:56]
Forensic Expert
I knew that Jeremy and the other Officers had gone to his house initially to do the death notification.
[49:03]
Lester Holt
The detective looked at the video from James work at that very moment.
[49:07]
Forensic Expert
And I can see him reaching into his pocket, and I can see he's studying this phone.
[49:13]
Lester Holt
So James is. Is seeing you?
[49:16]
Forensic Expert
He's seeing them at the door. He could have asked them, like, hey, officers, what are you doing at my door?
[49:21]
Lester Holt
Instead, he ignored them, and he puts.
[49:24]
Forensic Expert
The phone back into his pocket.
[49:26]
Lester Holt
They also discovered this from Walker's. James with what looked like a laptop.
[49:31]
Forensic Expert
Like an imac type thing. He grabs onto this computer, I believe to be a computer computer, and he throws it into a trash can. And then he walks out to the dumpster out back, and he comes in with an empty trash can. And then when we went down to try to recover the laptop from the.
[49:47]
Lester Holt
Dumpster, it was gone.
[49:50]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah.
[49:51]
Lester Holt
Detectives now suspected James had killed Ashley and staged the crash. One problem. The timing of it all was baffling. How did he pull it off? How does he get home and get the kids to school on time?
[50:04]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That was a question we had to go answer. We've got this very small window, very small. We picked one of the fittest individuals we know in the office.
[50:14]
Lester Holt
So this is a little experiment here.
[50:15]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Can he do it?
[50:23]
Lester Holt
When the flu is keeping you up.
[50:24]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
At night, don't try to tough it out.
[50:26]
Lester Holt
Knock out your flu symptoms with nyquil Intense Flu.
[50:30]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
You got this.
[50:31]
Detective Sean Glassford
It provides powerful relief of your flu.
[50:33]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Symptoms so you can sleep well through the night. Nyquil Intense Flu.
[50:38]
Lester Holt
The nighttime.
[50:38]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Sniffling, aching, aching fever. Best sleep with a flu medicine. Use as directed. Keep out of reach of children.
[50:45]
Lester Holt
Hi, I'm here to pick up my son, Milo.
[50:47]
Carrie Dyson
There's no Milo here. Who picked up my son from school?
[50:50]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Streaming only on Pico.
[50:55]
Lester Holt
I'm going to need the name of.
[50:56]
Forensic Expert
Everyone that could have a connection.
[50:57]
Lester Holt
You don't understand. It was just the five of us.
[51:00]
Lindsay Milnes
So this was all planned.
[51:01]
Lester Holt
What are you going to do?
[51:02]
Carrie Dyson
I will do whatever it takes to.
[51:05]
Lester Holt
Get my son back.
[51:06]
Forensic Expert
I honestly didn't see this coming.
[51:07]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
These nice people killing each other.
[51:10]
Detective Sean Glassford
All her fault.
[51:11]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
A new series streaming now only on Peacock.
[51:22]
Lester Holt
Ashley's family was hunkered down at her father's chalet. Lindsay had a growing unease about James.
[51:29]
Lindsay Milnes
It was almost like he wanted to just put it behind him that it was done, that it happened, and we just. We need to move on with things now.
[51:37]
Lester Holt
Did you think, well, maybe this is his way of handling this?
[51:39]
Lindsay Milnes
That's what I thought. Everyone grieves differently. And there were two kids involved, right? Like he cannot fall apart. It didn't feel right, but at the same time I didn't. I mean, no one's gone through something like this.
[51:51]
Lester Holt
Lindsay didn't know it yet, but James shook her. Schwam had become suspect number one in the murder of his wife Ashley. But detectives were scratching their heads, wondering how he could have pulled it off. If he drove Ashley's SUV to the mountain and crashed it. How did he get back to his house without a car? It's 10 miles away. You know, there's one vehicle involved in this potential crime here. How does he get home and get the kids to school on time?
[52:20]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That's. That was the question we. We had to go answer.
[52:23]
Forensic Expert
So we had a hard time with this one.
[52:25]
Lester Holt
Detectives took another look at the timeline.
[52:28]
Ian Milnes
We have the.
[52:29]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
The 911 call at 5:54.
[52:33]
Lester Holt
Then at 5:57am they had that footage of a man running from the crash site. And they'd since discovered another video. Something damning this one. More than an hour later, miles away In Collingwood, at 7:07am A home security camera captured someone running toward James house.
[52:52]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's the same person that ran from the scene. He had the same backpack on. And it actually looks like he's carrying some boots in one hand. And he turned onto Chris the court, James Street.
[53:06]
Lester Holt
If the running man was James, police figured he had about an hour and 15 minutes to make the 10 mile trip home.
[53:13]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
James was in great shape.
[53:15]
Lester Holt
True.
[53:16]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So we decided we were gonna have one of our members do the run. So we picked the.
[53:23]
Lester Holt
One of your colleagues.
[53:25]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Correct. We picked one of the fittest individuals we know in the office.
[53:30]
Lester Holt
So this is a little experiment here. How long can he do it? It's a long run.
[53:35]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's a long run. He set his watch and he picked a route to go back. And it took him an hour and 25 minutes.
[53:44]
Lester Holt
That's long time.
[53:46]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Long time.
[53:47]
Lester Holt
So that, that wouldn't be feasible then. That doesn't seem like that would be how he got. If he did this, how he got back to going back.
[53:54]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He's off by about 10 to 15 minutes.
[53:57]
Lester Holt
They wondered if maybe James had ridden a bike. They knew Ashley's dad's chalet was not too far from the crash site.
[54:03]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Maybe he just left the battle bicycle there and maybe he rode back. So we had someone else get on a bike and do the same thing.
[54:11]
Lester Holt
That would shave a lot of time off.
[54:13]
Ian Milnes
It did.
[54:13]
Lester Holt
So what was that one, 45 minutes. But they didn't find any video of a guy on a bike. They Set that puzzle piece aside and turned their attention to another lead. They'd been notified about a call that came into the police department hours after the murder. I.
[54:31]
Lindsay Milnes
Hi. I was just wanting to share some information that a student gave me.
[54:37]
Lester Holt
The caller was a first grade teacher worried about a student.
[54:40]
Lindsay Milnes
Okay, and what did she tell you? Well, she said that she didn't have a very good night last night. Her. She was woken up to her parents fighting. And then she proceeded to tell me that her mom had fallen down the stairs. And so I asked her if she had, you know, seen her mom. And she said no, but my dad yelled off and said she was okay. She said she couldn't sleep, so she made a necklace, like a. An elastic band necklace. And then I said, well, did you see your mom in the morning? She said no, that her mom had gone for a long hike. And what's, what's the mom saying? Do we know? Her name is Ashley.
[55:19]
Lester Holt
It was Ashley's 6 year old daughter's teacher.
[55:22]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's what changed the perspective.
[55:25]
Lester Holt
James had mentioned an argument to the detectives, but he downplayed it. Now his daughter's story was making it seem much bigger. A few days after that call, they asked James to bring his children in for an interview. That's so delicate, Very delicate, so young. They told James it was just routine. Is he in the room? Then he allows the children to do interviews alone?
[55:49]
Forensic Expert
Yes.
[55:50]
Lester Holt
What do you learn from the kids? There's a girl and a boy. They're how old at this time?
[55:54]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Six and nine.
[55:55]
Lester Holt
Okay, so what are they telling you about that night? The night before the mom's death really.
[56:01]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Didn'T give us anything of any value. We never heard about a fight. We didn't hear about a fall down the stairs. Kids were nervous, kids were uncomfortable, kids were grieving. And the daughter just didn't repeat what was potentially, I guess, a bad memory of mom after just losing mom.
[56:21]
Lester Holt
But detectives couldn't dismiss that call from the teacher. To them, a clearer picture of Ashley's final moments was emerging. With James squarely in the frame on your whiteboard, you had one side of why he might have done this and another side of why he might not have done this.
[56:37]
Detective Sean Glassford
That's right. And as we go about our investigation, the things on the side that he didn't do it start to disappear. And the things that on the side that he did, it starts to get longer.
[56:51]
Lester Holt
You recover something that is like right out of a Hollywood script.
[56:55]
Forensic Expert
It really was remarkable.
[56:57]
Lester Holt
And James was in for a big surprise. What's his reaction.
[57:02]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
What's going on? I don't understand.
[57:15]
Lester Holt
Even though detectives had gathered a long list of evidence pointing to James Schwam murdering his wife, it was still hard for them to wrap their heads around.
[57:23]
Detective Sean Glassford
Look down.
[57:25]
Lester Holt
He was a well respected fire captain.
[57:27]
Detective Sean Glassford
Don't be too bouncy. I'm trying not to be bouncy.
[57:30]
Lester Holt
A man whose job was saving people.
[57:33]
Ian Milnes
Where'd he go?
[57:34]
Lester Holt
He does have instant credibility being a fire captain. We're gonna find out how much a.
[57:39]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Firefighter weighs with all of their gear on.
[57:42]
Lester Holt
He's devoted his life to service, and he works with police. And, you know, he's in a very distinguished position.
[57:50]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Correct. And we run these people through our systems. There was no history with either James or Ashley.
[57:57]
Lester Holt
No 911 calls to the house or nothing. Claims of domestic violence, anything like that?
[58:03]
Forensic Expert
Nothing.
[58:05]
Lester Holt
Detectives even discovered a post James had shared supporting domestic violence awareness. Still, they scheduled a meeting with the prosecutor to go over the evidence. This is a very circumstantial case at this point.
[58:19]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yes.
[58:20]
Lester Holt
Were you concerned?
[58:21]
Detective Sean Glassford
No.
[58:21]
Lester Holt
If you had enough.
[58:22]
Detective Sean Glassford
No, I was quite comfortable with the fact that we had enough evidence to not only arrest, but to prosecute for second degree murder.
[58:32]
Lester Holt
Detectives had developed a theory of what happened between James and Ashley during that January snowstorm.
[58:38]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We believe that this was a fight that went bad. His daughter heard an argument that night, Then mom fell down the stairs. Something happened in that house, and it just ended in a tragedy.
[58:50]
Lester Holt
And then this is more of a cover up.
[58:52]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He kills her. He's panicked. What do I do? And he comes up with this story.
[58:59]
Lester Holt
The story of Ashley going on that early morning hike. And the COVID up, they say, was elaborate. During the autopsy, the pathologist noticed something that hadn't burned in the car fire.
[59:11]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
The shoe was actually a specific snow hiking shoe with. With metal studs in the bottom.
[59:17]
Lester Holt
So he.
[59:18]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He redressed her to get her set up. So everything looked the part.
[59:23]
Lester Holt
So you think after he killed her, he dressed her to look like she was going for a hike?
[59:28]
Forensic Expert
He did.
[59:29]
Lester Holt
After he dressed her. Detectives believe James put Ashley's body in her suv. But how did he make it look like she left the house alive? Remember that video of James leaving to walk the dog and Ashley's SUV leaving just minutes later?
[59:44]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He went one way and she went the other.
[59:47]
Lester Holt
Their theory was that James used his father to remotely turn the camera off long enough to circle back, drop off the dog, get into her SUV, and drive it away himself. They also think he sent those texts from Ashley's phone about the Gas cans.
[60:02]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
And vertigo right there. It's the explanation for the crash.
[60:07]
Lester Holt
The COVID up continued when he arrived at Alpine Ski Club parking lot.
[60:11]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We think this is James getting the vehicle and Ashley ready for that crash. He doused her in gasoline. He doused the car in gasoline, drove it into the ditch, and then set it on fire.
[60:26]
Lester Holt
You recover something that is like right out of a Hollywood script. A piece of evidence.
[60:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Correct. So the vehicle was removed from the scene and then it was taken back for a forensic examination. And when they're sifting through the passenger compartment of the vehicle, they found a Zippo lighter with the initials jws. James William Schwam. He's thinking this fire is going to consume everything that's there. She's going to be consumed. That lighter is going to be consumed. There's going to be nothing left.
[61:01]
Lester Holt
Do you feel now with this lighter, with all the things you've learned, that there is enough to make an arrest of James Schwann?
[61:07]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Yes.
[61:08]
Lester Holt
Where does this happen?
[61:10]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So we had surveillance on him and they had him coming back towards his house. And we arrested him basically on his right outside of his driveway.
[61:19]
Lester Holt
It was one week after the murder of his wife, February 2, 2023.
[61:24]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We took him out of the vehicle and told him that he was under.
[61:27]
Lester Holt
Arrest for murder, second degree murder and indignity to a body. What's his reaction?
[61:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Jeremy, what's going on? I don't understand. What can I do to help?
[61:38]
Lester Holt
That's a first.
[61:40]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It was a very odd reaction.
[61:42]
Lester Holt
I've never heard a response like that after or during an arrest.
[61:47]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Me neither.
[61:48]
Lester Holt
And what do you say?
[61:49]
Forensic Expert
I think it's him implying that we got it wrong.
[61:52]
Lester Holt
As James was led away, they could see his children in the car. And the children are watching this arrest.
[61:58]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah. The kids are in the backseat.
[62:01]
Ian Milnes
Yeah.
[62:01]
Lester Holt
That's really heartbreaking.
[62:03]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah.
[62:03]
Lester Holt
That they had to see that.
[62:05]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah, it is. And it's unfortunate it happened that way. I still think about the boy, the little boy. I went up to the car and the little boy asked me if he'd ever see his dad again. That kind of drives it home that there are other victims here.
[62:25]
Lester Holt
Detectives called Ashley's dad, Ian.
[62:27]
Ian Milnes
They say, we want to talk deal. Us, you know, Jamie, just our family.
[62:32]
Lester Holt
Is this at the chalet?
[62:33]
Ian Milnes
They come to us and they said, we just want to let you know we've just arrested Jamie for the murder of Ashley.
[62:40]
Lester Holt
What is the expression on everyone's faces?
[62:44]
Ian Milnes
Lindsay bursts into tears. That. And you go, jesus.
[62:47]
Lester Holt
If the police are right and Jamie did this, this is the ultimate betrayal.
[62:52]
Ian Milnes
Yeah, he does betrayal. He does it well. I mean, the lying, the tears, the work that went into this. And then you realize he hasn't watched enough of dateline because he screwed up in so many ways.
[63:13]
Lindsay Milnes
There was a lot of crying, a lot of shock. It was really hard. And I. For, like a moment, I remember I felt bad for him. And I think that's one of the most screwed up things for me because I had just heard he had killed my sister. But he was family, right?
[63:35]
Lester Holt
Firefighter Jordan Paris saw an announcement pop up on his phone.
[63:39]
Detective Sean Glassford
Social media posts went out and said former fire captain James Schwam no longer works for. I was like, they said the word former, so I took offense. How dare they put the word former meaning he's basically guilty. And I was like, no, that's not how it works.
[63:56]
Lester Holt
That didn't sit right with you? Like, hey, give him a chance to explain. Both he and Britney held out hope that maybe James was innocent.
[64:03]
Carrie Dyson
It's just so, like, surreal. Yeah, I didn't see it coming. No history. No.
[64:10]
Ian Milnes
You know?
[64:10]
Lester Holt
No, it didn't make sense still.
[64:12]
Carrie Dyson
It did not make sense at all. And I'm like, why aren't there more people, like, defending him today?
[64:17]
Lester Holt
Detectives weren't sharing any information about the murder. They continued to gather evidence and were about to learn the plot was more diabolical than they imagined. That's like a whole new level of evil.
[64:28]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's horrible.
[64:34]
Lester Holt
I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.
[64:38]
Carrie Dyson
Don'T trust much of anything.
[64:42]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It's the rage bait.
[64:44]
Lester Holt
It feels like it's trying to divide people.
[64:48]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We got clear facts.
[64:50]
Lester Holt
Maybe we can calm down a little.
[64:54]
Detective Sean Glassford
NBC news brings you clear reporting.
[64:57]
Lester Holt
Let's meet at the facts.
[64:58]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.
[65:12]
Lester Holt
News spread quickly about James Schwam's arrest.
[65:15]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Schwam's arrest came a week after Milne's body was discovered. In the early morning hours of January 26th, this was the number one story in Canada.
[65:25]
Lester Holt
Mike Arcelides is a reporter for CTV. He covers the Collingwood area. This didn't just make news in Canada. This made news around the world.
[65:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
This isn't a guy you would think would turn to murder. You hear about a car crash, you hear about a fire, and then the man accused of murder is a firefighter.
[65:44]
Lester Holt
It's the same community I once covered as a young reporter. And to protect your valuables in general, you may want to have an alarm system installed. I covered fires and accidents and everything in between. But never a story like this one. Ashley's murder shook the community to its core. There was one night our kitchen was lit up with flashlights in their backyard. And it just was like, how is this my house? It feels like it's out of a movie. A crime scene. A crime scene. Literally a crime scene scene. And it was just an eerie, awful feeling. Police believe the couple had a fight and James just snapped until a man walked into the police station.
[66:23]
Forensic Expert
I'll never forget that day. I was sitting in my office and one of our staff members comes to say to me that there's a doctor in the front office, this one, that wants to talk to you about this, the homicide that you're working on. He speaks about being at a. A party with James present.
[66:41]
Detective Sean Glassford
James had asked him about breaking necks like they do in the Steven Seagal movies. You know, the big twist and all that stuff. And the doctor was like, well, I.
[66:49]
Lester Holt
Don'T know, maybe something you don't think too much of. Right.
[66:52]
Detective Sean Glassford
Because maybe not at the time, but.
[66:55]
Lester Holt
Now it was raising the detective's eyebrows. He knew Ashley's neck had been broken. But this is something that no one else knew. Right. You had not released this detail.
[67:05]
Detective Sean Glassford
No, that we consider that hold back evidence. We keep it close to us because only really, only the killer knows.
[67:11]
Lester Holt
It turned out James had been asking a lot of questions in the weeks leading up to Ashley's murder.
[67:16]
Detective Sean Glassford
There were searches about alimony and that kind of thing.
[67:20]
Lindsay Milnes
Right.
[67:21]
Detective Sean Glassford
Like, how much is it gonna cost? He was talking to some colleagues that had been through a divorce. Like, how much did this cost you?
[67:28]
Carrie Dyson
Yeah.
[67:28]
Detective Sean Glassford
And then there was a transition into, you know, doing Google searches on. Can the police see what I'm looking at? Can. Can the police find deleted information?
[67:38]
Lester Holt
This story is about to take a major turn.
[67:41]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
What we uncovered afterwards made it sick.
[67:44]
Lester Holt
The evidence now suggested to detectives that James planned Ashley's murder. Take those gas cans that caused the SUV to erupt in flames the day before the crash. James texted this to Ashley. There are two gas cans in garage and workbench. Please, please, can you fill them up? I forgot to bring down here. In his police interview, he implied that Ashley did just that and had forgotten to take the cans out of her car.
[68:12]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
So when she leaves that morning, she leaves with the cans still in the car is what I'm getting at.
[68:19]
Forensic Expert
Yeah.
[68:19]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Why would she do that?
[68:23]
Forensic Expert
I honestly don't know.
[68:25]
Lester Holt
They were certain he was lying. They knew Ashley never filled those gas cans.
[68:29]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We looked at all the gas stations in Collingwood, and it's another thing of what wasn't there, and she was never there. Getting gas.
[68:37]
Lester Holt
Detectives believed that gas can text was just a ruse to fool police into thinking Ashley put them in her suv. In truth, they said James got the gas two days before the murder when.
[68:49]
Forensic Expert
He was on his way to the fire hall to start his shift. He actually puts a gas can, a red jerry gas can in his car, and off he goes.
[69:02]
Lester Holt
They thought he filled both those cans and later planted them in the back of Ashley's suv. This is looking like premeditation now to you.
[69:11]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
This was the first bit of planned and deliberate.
[69:16]
Lester Holt
The more they looked, the worse it seemed for James. Days before the murder, cameras captured him adjusting the home's security system.
[69:25]
Forensic Expert
And he moves the camera system from inside the garage to the back of his house. It's full of snow.
[69:31]
Lester Holt
The detectives could think of only one reason why he'd want that camera out of the garage.
[69:37]
Forensic Expert
So that he can load his wife's body into the vehicle inside the garage, concealed from everybody so nobody can see him drive her up to the mountain.
[69:47]
Lester Holt
He had a plan that he appeared to fine tune in the run up to his wife's murder.
[69:52]
Detective Sean Glassford
While examining James vehicle, we found a dash cam that he had set up in that. In that car. We have video of him the day before her death driving into this parking lot with his young son.
[70:09]
Lester Holt
To detectives, it looked like James was scoping out the lot near the crash site, like he's.
[70:14]
Detective Sean Glassford
He's planning on where to park and where to. Where to, you know, to get ready to do what he's gonna do the next day.
[70:22]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We never see his face in any of these videos, but you could clearly hear him talking with his son in that video. And at one point, you could see the profile as his son walked by in front of the car.
[70:38]
Lester Holt
That's like a whole new level of evil if you're bringing your son along for the pre planning of your. His mom's murder, it's horrible. Then they say James roped in his unwitting parents.
[70:52]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We found evidence of a phone call that James made to his mom, and she told him that her car was now available for him to use. The day before the crash, a new.
[71:05]
Lester Holt
Car entering the picture.
[71:06]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
A car that's never been part of.
[71:07]
Lester Holt
Our investigation, but it was now a pivotal discovery. After talking to his parents, detectives learned that the night before the murder, James parked his mom's car near that ditch. The next day, immediately after setting fire to Ashley's suv, he ran to the awaiting car.
[71:25]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
We found it all we found the car leaving his parents house. They found the car coming to the parking lot. We found the car heading back to Collingwood.
[71:35]
Lester Holt
After the murder, police figured out where he dropped the car off. They found a text his mother sent him.
[71:41]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
She said, james, just so I'm clear, my car is at the kids school. And he texts back, yes.
[71:49]
Lester Holt
From there, police said cameras picked up James again running from the school back home. Finally they had an answer to a question that had nagged them from the start. How James got back to Collingwood so quickly from the scene. He had a getaway car. But why? Why would he do this?
[72:07]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
That potentially that the next Mrs. Schwam was getting lined up and you won't.
[72:14]
Lester Holt
Believe who it was. Detectives were convinced James Schwam had been planned his wife's murder. But they wanted to know why. Her father, Ian, believed the affair was the catalyst.
[72:39]
Ian Milnes
He was never, ever going to forgive AJ for doing what she did, embarrassing him, that kind of. That's his mantra. He's very huge and really big in other people's perception of him.
[72:58]
Forensic Expert
I really believe that it was a huge blow to his ego. After speaking to his firefighter friends, he was going through a lot of emotional withdrawal.
[73:07]
Lester Holt
They also learned he'd been asking his fellow firefighters for advice on divorce.
[73:12]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
I think he was worried ultimately that if he and Ashley divorced that he would be losing some of those finer things. The house, child support, alimony, and all of his stature.
[73:29]
Forensic Expert
And we know he spoke to. We're colleagues about that very thing.
[73:33]
Lester Holt
Yeah. So if Ashley's gone, he gets the children, gets to keep the house. Is there life insurance involved?
[73:39]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
There's life insurance. There's two policies.
[73:41]
Carrie Dyson
How much?
[73:42]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
One was for a million dollars payable to him, and the other one was for $250,000 for the children. With him as the executor.
[73:51]
Forensic Expert
In the event. In the event of Ashley. Ashley's accidental death.
[73:56]
Carrie Dyson
Wow, that's.
[73:59]
Forensic Expert
It's interesting.
[74:01]
Lester Holt
Yeah.
[74:01]
Forensic Expert
It certainly pops out off the page when you look at stuff like that.
[74:05]
Lester Holt
It certainly suggested money was a motive for the killing. Then police discovered another one.
[74:10]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He developed a friendship with Alex McDonald.
[74:13]
Lester Holt
Alexandra, the woman whose husband had that affair with. With Ashley. James had her name listed under an alias in his phone. Detectives could see that shortly after the affair was discovered, James and Alexandra began texting each other.
[74:26]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It was very. They were flirtatious, but not overt.
[74:31]
Lester Holt
Got it.
[74:31]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
And maybe that's not even the right word. They were.
[74:33]
Ian Milnes
They.
[74:34]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
They were just connected. They were two people who had both, I think, had their serious problems with that affair, who are now together, sharing things.
[74:44]
Lester Holt
They asked her if there was more to the relationship.
[74:47]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
She acknowledged that they were. They had developed a friendship, a relationship, and that they had mutual feelings for each other.
[74:54]
Lester Holt
But they could tell James wanted more.
[74:57]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
When we looked at his phone, he had over a thousand messages with her. In the month of January, the month.
[75:03]
Lester Holt
Ashley died, five days before the murder, he texted this. I wish you were here, but you're with the wife. Not really. She's here, but we're not. I'm happy with my decision, but no one else knows it's what I want. Please don't tell anyone.
[75:19]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He said, I'm going to do what's going to make me happy.
[75:23]
Lester Holt
Without any details, leaving detectives to read between the lines that James wanted Ashley gone so he could start a new.
[75:30]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Life, and that potentially that the next Mrs. Schwam was getting lined up.
[75:38]
Lester Holt
It was clear from the text that Alexandra didn't know what decision James was talking about. There was no indication from his phone or anything that they had been, you know, even if it was cryptic, that there was something going on with the planning.
[75:52]
Forensic Expert
Not at all.
[75:54]
Lester Holt
They ruled out the possibility that she was part of the plan. Two weeks after James arrested, the prosecutor upgraded the charge against him to first degree murder. For friends like Ann Lockhart, certain moments took on a new, darker meaning. I have two little chairs and a table in our front patio. I'd said to Ashley, do you want to sit and have a glass of wine? We hardly sat down, and James came out and said, ashley, let's go. And she said, I'm just going to finish this wine and we'll be along. And not a few moments later, James came out and he seemed angry, and he was ash. Time to go right now. Let's go. It was that one moment of control that I saw.
[76:32]
Carrie Dyson
I felt like, sick. You're like, wow. Like, I was hugging and holding this person, like, hours after he, like, killed his wife.
[76:43]
Detective Sean Glassford
I went quick to anger. You took away a mother from their children. You took away the love of your life. A beautiful marriage they had. You jeopardized. You selfish.
[76:52]
Lester Holt
Lindsay couldn't believe her family once loved.
[76:54]
Lindsay Milnes
And trusted this man to know that he planned this. This wasn't like he woke up and then just killed her. He planned this. I think that is one of the hardest pills to swallow.
[77:08]
Lester Holt
You all are bracing for a trial.
[77:11]
Lindsay Milnes
Absolutely.
[77:11]
Lester Holt
And it could be a big one with all the evidence and, I mean.
[77:15]
Lindsay Milnes
Yes, the trial we knew wouldn't be for, I think they had said two years.
[77:22]
Lester Holt
Oh, Police had released few details about how James killed Ashley.
[77:26]
Carrie Dyson
You're hearing so many rumors about what happened, like, ridiculous stuff. I couldn't wait for the trial because I just wanted all the evidence and the facts, like, in front of me. And then I could finally eliminate the idea that he had some good in him somewhere.
[77:42]
Lester Holt
There is a lot of work to be done.
[77:44]
Detective Sean Glassford
Absolutely. They say most of the work starts when you make an arrest and you're getting ready for the trial.
[77:50]
Lester Holt
Then his phone rang. So you get some news out of the blue that James Schwam wants to talk. More than a year had passed since the death of Ashley Schwam. Prosecutors were building a case against her husband, James, hoping to convince a jury that he'd carefully planned and carried out her murder. Ashley's children had begun opening up about that night, about their mother's final moments.
[78:29]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
They went to counseling. They started to speak more about what they experienced that night.
[78:36]
Lester Holt
Her son remembered being awakened by his parents earlier and stepping out of his room.
[78:41]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
The son was able to say that Ashley had asked him to bring her a phone.
[78:47]
Lester Holt
Her son said she was going to call the police.
[78:50]
Ian Milnes
The last thing she said to her son was, get my phone.
[78:55]
Lester Holt
Ashley never made that call. The son said his dad told him to go back to bed. I mean, that just honestly gives me chills. Hearing that should. It's really hard to hear that. That's really awful. Later, he heard his father crying and talking to Alexa, the virtual assistant.
[79:14]
Detective Sean Glassford
What time is it? And he heard three o'.
[79:16]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Clock.
[79:17]
Lester Holt
When he woke up a few hours later, his mother was gone. The family feared Ashley's son would have to tell that story on the stand. Then things took a dramatic turn. You get some news out of the blue that James Schwam wants to talk.
[79:34]
Detective Sean Glassford
It started with him waiving his preliminary hearing. And then shortly after that, he made it known through his counsel that he wanted to talk.
[79:44]
Lester Holt
James had been sitting in jail for more than a year. Now he was asking for a deal. The prosecutor reaches out to you with some big news.
[79:53]
Lindsay Milnes
Yes. The whole investigative team and to my whole family that Jamie would plead to second degree.
[80:01]
Ian Milnes
They said, he's gonna play, and this is the deal he wants. But you guys decide.
[80:06]
Lester Holt
So they took it to you?
[80:07]
Ian Milnes
Oh, 100%. They said, Guys, you decide.
[80:12]
Lester Holt
The family was willing to consider it to spare the children. James had been charged with first degree murder in Canada. That means he was facing life in prison with the possibility of parole in 25 years. Now he was hoping for a lighter sentence. One of the big concerns with second degree is, you know, he could be eligible for parole as early as 10 years.
[80:35]
Lindsay Milnes
It's crazy.
[80:36]
Lester Holt
Potentially, you're at the mercy of the judge. But Ashley's family felt confident. Because of the callousness and planning that went into this murder, the prosecution could convince a judge James deserved the harshest sentence possible. So the family agreed to the deal. In June 2024, a year and a half after James murdered his wife, Ashley, he was led into a courtroom ready to admit what he had done.
[81:03]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
He introduced himself. I'm James Schwam. And he gave his date of birth. He was respectful.
[81:10]
Lester Holt
Mike arcelides covered the hearing. He noticed the courtroom was divided down the middle with Ashley's family and friends on the left side and just a small showing for James on the right.
[81:21]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
It was two or three people on one side of the courtroom and about 50, 60 on the other, and it felt like a funeral in there.
[81:28]
Lester Holt
The schwam family's good name has now come down to this.
[81:32]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Yeah.
[81:33]
Lester Holt
As part of the deal, James had signed an agreed statement of fact, confirming all the evidence uncovered in the investigation. All the disturbing details were true. So this is essentially showing, even though this is second degree, this is telling you how diabolical it was.
[81:50]
Forensic Expert
And I think it also shows that. Yeah, okay, so he's pleading, but we gotcha. We got you.
[81:56]
Lester Holt
The courtroom fell silent as the prosecutor read aloud, step by step, how James murdered his wife. Brittany couldn't believe she'd ever defended him.
[82:06]
Carrie Dyson
I feel so guilty for it now. I just wish I had the opportunity to apologize for. Oh.
[82:15]
Lester Holt
The judge invited Ashley's friends and family to speak. You gave a very powerful victim impact statement. What was your core thought that you wanted to get across?
[82:25]
Carrie Dyson
She didn't have to go, and it wasn't right. I just want him to pay for what he did.
[82:36]
Lindsay Milnes
She just wasn't some victim. She was a sister, an aunt, a friend, a mom. She was amazing.
[82:45]
Detective Sean Glassford
Yeah.
[82:46]
Lester Holt
He took her from you.
[82:47]
Lindsay Milnes
Yeah.
[82:48]
Lester Holt
He shattered your family.
[82:50]
Lindsay Milnes
He did. He did.
[82:53]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
Everyone was crying. Aunts and uncles, cousins, brothers and sisters, Trying to make sense in their heads of what exactly happened here.
[83:02]
Lester Holt
Does it look like Jamie schwam is absorbing any of this?
[83:05]
Detective Jeremy Schiffman
None. None whatsoever. He showed no emotion. He didn't cry. He looked very stoic.
[83:12]
Lester Holt
Ashley's father, Ian, gave the final impact statement.
[83:15]
Ian Milnes
He looked at me, and I looked at him as I talked.
[83:18]
Lester Holt
What did you want him to know in that courtroom?
[83:22]
Ian Milnes
Well, how cowardice the move was. It was just so cowardly done.
[83:29]
Lester Holt
Ian had always thought James cared more about his reputation and his image than anything else.
[83:34]
Ian Milnes
And I wanted to cut that. And the way you cut that is to say you were hired to be a protector, fireman. So you always want praise and medals and things. Just think what you're getting. Now this is the worst of all things happening to you because the world knows you'll never escape. Yeah.
[83:58]
Lester Holt
Is this the ultimate embarrassment for him?
[84:00]
Ian Milnes
Oh, God. If there's anything worse, you let me know.
[84:04]
Lester Holt
James schwam was the last person to speak. He told the judge that he is exactly where he needs to be because of his terrible, awful actions. He said he is haunted by what he's done and how it continues to hurt the people he loves the most. His attorney tried to plea for leniency, Saying that he was taking responsibility. He pled guilty.
[84:27]
Lindsay Milnes
Yeah. Who gives a crap? He did it for no other reason than to serve himself.
[84:35]
Lester Holt
What did you hear in that courtroom?
[84:37]
Detective Sean Glassford
What I didn't hear was an apology. I didn't hear him say he was sorry.
[84:42]
Lester Holt
The judge gave James schwam life in prison with a chance of parole in 20 years. He will be 58. It's the longest sentence in canadian history for a person with no prior record. The judge also prohibited him from having contact with his children until they turn 18. The judge gave this unprecedented sentence. Did that bring you some peace Knowing that the judge really listened?
[85:06]
Carrie Dyson
Yes, it did. Nothing. Nothing brings her back. But I felt like the judge heard us.
[85:16]
Lester Holt
This past September, Ashley's family had a memorial in her honor. You held an event, A very special event for Ashley in conjunction with my friend's house, which is a domestic violence shelter here in the area.
[85:29]
Lindsay Milnes
It was amazing. We could finally celebrate her after two.
[85:34]
Carrie Dyson
Years as one of her favorite pastimes was hiking. We did a memorial hike for her.
[85:42]
Lester Holt
And sunflowers.
[85:43]
Carrie Dyson
And she loved sunflowers. And there was a local man who donated all the sunflowers. And it was absolutely beautiful, and she would have loved it.
[85:56]
Ian Milnes
They expected 100 to 125, and they got 175.
[86:01]
Lester Holt
And.
[86:01]
Ian Milnes
And people stayed right to the end. And I think they got a whole bunch of dough, I hope.
[86:08]
Lester Holt
In addition to celebrating Ashley, the event raised money for a fund created in her memory. The sunflower fund is for children that.
[86:17]
Lindsay Milnes
Are it my friends.
[86:18]
Lester Holt
Victims.
[86:19]
Lindsay Milnes
Yes. Of domestic violence and abuse. And it's to help them with their camps and their therapy and all of that.
[86:28]
Lester Holt
Yeah. Something that Ashley would want to focus on.
[86:32]
Lindsay Milnes
Absolutely. She would have loved it. Yeah.
[86:35]
Lester Holt
The best part for us was seeing the kids again, to see how happy the kids seem. I could see the love that is surrounding them and it's very obvious they're in good hands and thriving. Ashley's children, now 11 and 8 are being raised by her brother and sister in law. What is the future for all of you?
[86:56]
Lindsay Milnes
I mean we have to move on, right? And she would not want us sitting here being upset and doing this.
[87:02]
Lester Holt
You know, Ashley lives on through her children. Oh my God.
[87:06]
Lindsay Milnes
Yeah.
[87:06]
Lester Holt
They are in amazing hands. She would be so proud of those kids.
[87:10]
Lindsay Milnes
She would be very proud.
[87:20]
Lester Holt
That's all for this edition of dateline. And don't forget to check out our Talking DATELINE podcast in which we'll go behind the scenes of tonight's episode available Wednesday in the DATELINE feed. Wherever you get your podcasts, we'll see you again next Friday at 9, 8 Central. I'm Lester Holt. For all of us at NBC News, good night.