Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Summary: "Talking Dateline: 11 Minutes"

Release Date: May 21, 2025
Host: Blaine Alexander
Guest: Josh Mankiewicz, NBC News

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Introduction

In the episode titled "11 Minutes," hosts Blaine Alexander and Josh Mankiewicz delve deep into the troubling case of Madison Holton, a 17-year-old charged with the September 2016 murders of his parents, Michael and Jennifer Holton, in the small town of Eclectic, Alabama. This discussion unpacks the intricate family dynamics, the contentious investigation, and the pivotal efforts to challenge the charges against Madison.

Overview of the Madison Holton Case

Blaine Alexander introduces the harrowing story, highlighting Madison's firm stance on his innocence despite the grave charges (01:11). The central narrative revolves around a family dispute that escalated fatally, leading to Madison's arrest. The episode aims to shed light on the conflicting narratives surrounding the case, including Madison's claim that his father may have perpetrated a murder-suicide against his mother.

Family Dynamics and Background

The discussion begins by exploring the troubled family environment that Madison was part of. With his parents undergoing a divorce and struggling to manage a rebellious teenage son involved in drug use and dishonesty (03:13), the household was rife with tension. Josh Mankiewicz remarks,

“This was more about teaching you a lesson than protecting us. But I gotta say, putting handcuffs on somebody is kind of a thing you do when you're afraid of what they're going to do, where they're going in life.” (04:43)

This sentiment underscores the parents' drastic measures to control Madison's behavior, culminating in the fateful night of the murders.

Investigation and Doubts Surrounding the Case

The crux of the episode examines the investigation's inconsistencies. Mankiewicz points out significant "holes in the story," questioning the credibility of both the prosecution and Madison's defense (02:27). For instance, despite Madison's alleged violent behavior, there was a lack of blood evidence linking him directly to the murders, raising doubts about the timeline and circumstances of the crime.

Blaine reflects on the unpredictable nature of the case, stating:

“There are so many ways this could go. Oh, yeah, he definitely did it. Wait, no, he didn't do it. Oh, wait, he's handcuffed. No, they have problems. I mean, all of these things just kind of keep coming to where you really don't know how it's going to shake out.” (02:11)

Role of Greg Biggs and Efforts to Exonerate

A turning point in the narrative is the involvement of Greg Biggs, a retired FBI agent who becomes Madison's unlikely ally. Biggs' intervention is portrayed as pivotal, uncovering overlooked aspects of the investigation that cast further doubt on Madison's guilt. Josh recalls a memorable interaction with Biggs:

“I kissed a dead dog on the road when I was 17.” (12:13)

This anecdote humanizes Biggs and illustrates his commitment to seeking the truth, irrespective of personal background.

Potential for Future Legal Action

The conversation shifts to the legal implications following the initial investigation. Despite charges being dropped, there's an underlying tension about the possibility of Madison facing trial again. Chris Owenby, Madison's uncle, emphatically states:

“They don't have a case. They didn't have a case in the first place.” (21:23)

This unwavering belief supports the notion that the original charges were unfounded, and raises concerns about the fairness of the legal process Madison endured.

Personal Insights and Reflections

Blaine and Josh share their personal impressions of Madison and the case's emotional toll. Madison’s genuine remorse and his selective mourning—visiting his mother's grave but not his father's—are highlighted as indicators of his true feelings and innocence. Josh reflects:

“Like you've got to believe that he is one very sophisticated criminal to have committed a murder, gotten away with it, and then made up a story like that. That felt to me as if you were telling the truth.” (22:33)

Conclusion

The episode wraps up by emphasizing the unresolved nature of Madison Holton's case and the broader implications for justice and investigative integrity. Blaine commends Josh for unpacking a complex and emotionally charged story, leaving listeners with a profound understanding of the challenges inherent in unraveling true-crime mysteries.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Josh Mankiewicz (02:27):
  “It's a weird story because no matter which way you go with this, whether you believe prosecutors and the sheriff or whether you believe Madison and his supporters, there are big holes in the story.”

• Blaine Alexander (02:11):
  “There are so many ways this could go... All of these things just kind of keep coming to where you really don't know how it's going to shake out.”

• Josh Mankiewicz (04:43):
  “This was more about teaching you a lesson than protecting us. But I gotta say, putting handcuffs on somebody is kind of a thing you do when you're afraid of where they're going in life.”

• Greg Biggs (12:13):
  “I kissed a dead dog on the road when I was 17.”

• Chris Owenby (21:23):
  “They don't have a case. They didn't have a case in the first place.”

• Josh Mankiewicz (22:33):
  “Like you've got to believe that he is one very sophisticated criminal to have committed a murder... that felt to me as if you were telling the truth.”

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the "11 Minutes" episode, detailing the complexities of Madison Holton's case, the familial struggles, investigative lapses, and the relentless pursuit of justice by his supporters. Through engaging dialogue and poignant reflections, the hosts offer listeners a nuanced perspective on a deeply unsettling true-crime story.

Transcript

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[Blaine Alexander]

Hi, everyone, I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking dateline. I'm here with the one, the only, Josh Mankiewicz. Hi, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hello.

[Blaine Alexander]

Okay, so today's episode is called 11 Minutes. It's the story of 17 year old Madison Holton, who was charged with the September 2016 murder of his parents, Michael and Jennifer Holton, after a family dispute turned deadly in their small town of Eclectic, Alabama. Madison insisted he was innocent, joining forces with his uncles and a retired FBI investigator who stepped in to fight for him. They raised serious doubts about the case against him and pointed to a different explanation, that Madison's father may have murdered his mother in a murder suicide. Now, remember, if you haven't listened to or watched the full episode yet, it's right below this one on your podcast list. So go listen to it or stream it now on Peacock and then come back here. And when we come back, we'll have two extra clips from the story, including one from Madison Holton, the person at the center of it all. So stick around. All right, Josh, let's talk dateline.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Let's talk dateline.

[Blaine Alexander]

You squeeze a whole lot into an hour here, my friend. Yeah, there was a lot in the story.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It's a weird story because no matter which way you go with this, whether you believe prosecutors and the sheriff or whether you believe Madison and his supporters, there are big holes in the story. Like, like none of it makes sense.

[Blaine Alexander]

Well, as I was watching this and going along, I'm thinking, oh, there are so many ways this could go. Oh, yeah, he definitely did it. Wait, no, he didn't do it. Oh, wait, he's handcuffed. No, they have problems. I mean, all of these things just kind of keep coming to where you really don't know how it's going to shake out. And in the end, nobody saw coming.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, I mean, then we did a good job. Because when you know, you're watching and you're thinking, oh, I understand it. Wait, I don't understand it. Wait. Now I think it's this, and then at the end, it's something you didn't coming, that means we've done our job.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. Let's talk about this family. We start the story. Getting to know Madison, learning about this family dynamic. They're dealing with a teenage son who they're trying to figure out how to get a hold on him. And at the same time, the parents are going through a divorce themselves. I can't imagine that kind of turmoil in one house at the same time.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. And that's the kind of dynamic that's going on in houses all across the country, which was one sort of great thing about this story, was that it was kind of emblematic what a lot of families are struggling with all over the United States. You and I, I know from our careers and the stories we've covered all the things that can go wrong when you have a teenager in the house. Right. And what was Madison doing? Well, he was using some drugs, and he was inviting his friends over when his parents weren't home, and he was lying to them, and he was kind of a little bit of discipline problem. But, I mean, you look at that measured against the chart of all the things that can happen with teenagers, and those are not the worst things out there.

[Blaine Alexander]

So he has a house party, but his parents really just don't know what to do. And they say this. It's almost kind of like a parental scared straight. We're gonna put some handcuffs on him. Some could say, hey, is this extreme? Or other people saying, hey, we just. Parents need to do something to get their son under control, on the right path.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, you know, handcuffs are one of those things like hitting your kids, which is you're gonna find people on both sides of that issue. That seemed a little extreme to me, given that there was no testimony about him being violent toward his parents. There was plenty of testimony about him misbehaving and not being honest and doing that kind of thing. But, you know, you have some record for beating people up or fighting with his parents. I mean, one senses that the parents were more at the end of their rope than actually fearful of Madison. That was my sense. Like, this is more about teaching you a lesson than protecting us. But I gotta Say, I mean, putting handcuffs on somebody is kind of a. A thing you do when you're afraid that of what they're going to do, where they're going in life. At the moment.

[Blaine Alexander]

I thought it was notable that the dad just apparently had handcuffs there ready to be put on. Right. He was a former fire chief, former mayor. There's some embarrassment issues that you kind of pointed to. I was struck by the fact that, you know, Madison's dad got a call from somebody, from a friend, somebody who knew and said, hey, my kid came home from your house under the influence of something, you need to figure out what's going on. Basically. Right. Had that happened in Atlanta or in la, it may not have been like, I know exactly the kid and the parent and who to call.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That is the kind of small town. I mean, there's literally, I think, one traffic light, or at least there was when we were there. This was one of the few places that we've been at Dateline. They were not glad to see us in Eclectic. We were in the Town Cafe, the coffee shop where everybody meets, and we were talking to somebody there, and the people at the next table heard it, and they went to the manager, and the manager came over and said, I want you guys to leave. That's unusual because generally. Yeah, when we're in a small. Any town. When we're in a small town, generally, people, sometimes, they know why you're there, but they don't necessarily want you out of there.

[Blaine Alexander]

I would think that that's a nod to just how difficult this story was, that they don't want to talk about it. They don't want it to be put on a national platform, I assume. Right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I think that's exactly what it was. I mean, I think this is anguish for everybody, because no matter what you believe. Right. Michael and April were vital members of that community. And I think they're. I think what they were probably saying to us is, you know, we. We miss them, we respect them. We don't want to talk about this.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah, interesting. I thought the interviews that you did do were very compelling. I mean, obviously you sat down with Madison himself. I'm curious, what was your impression of him?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, he was very forthright. His demeanor with me was not tremendously different from his demeanor with the cops. You know, he said, yes, sir and no, sir. He looking at me. He was paying attention. He wasn't looking down. He wasn't. He wasn't mumbling. He was ready for whatever came. And again, remember, your attorney may tell you to talk to police or not, but you're certainly not required to talk with reporters. But he did, and that earned him some points with me because I asked him all the questions that you'd want to ask, like, you know, what's the story here? And he, he was pretty good about that.

[Blaine Alexander]

When we come back, we will hear an extra clip from Josh's interview with one of the men who set out to free Madison, his uncle, Chris Owenby.

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[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa. I know there are millions of podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one, from Matthew McConaughey to disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Salma Hayek telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

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[Blaine Alexander]

Madison's uncles Chris and Mike absolutely believed him and they stepped up immediately to help him. The family rallied behind him. I'm curious what stood out to you and your conversations with them.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I think they were convinced not because they believed Madison, but because they knew what Michael and April were going through and probably had sort of a ringside seat to what was happening in that marriage in a way that Madison wouldn't have.

[Blaine Alexander]

Sure.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So my guess is they knew things about that marriage, about what was happening and what Michael in particular the dad, was going through that made them think, this has nothing to do with Madison.

[Blaine Alexander]

When you were talking to Madison, he said at one point, I don't remember which uncle Chris or Mike, but he said he'd only had maybe a five minute conversation with him ever before in life. I mean, they weren't very familiar, it seems.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

No, no. So that's why I thought, like, this really had to do with not with knowing Madison, but with. With seeing whatever they saw in that marriage and hearing whatever they had heard.

[Blaine Alexander]

We actually have an extra clip from your interview with Chris Owen B. That didn't make it into the show here. In this clip, he's describing what it was like to tell the kids that their father had been killed and their mother was fighting for her life.

[Chris Owenby]

And I walked in the house, and, of course, the other two kids were playing in the house. I said, look, I need you to come into the living room or the kitchen so I can talk to you. They came in and sat down at the table, and I said, look, there's no easy way for me to tell you this, but your dad shot your mom and killed himself, and we got to go to the hospital, and I don't know how else to tell them. I think I looked at Tonya and I said, my God, I gotta tell them their parents are gone. How do you tell two kids that? And she said, you just tell them. And that's what I did.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It was a fight for her life that April eventually lost. The next day, she was alive, I think, when she went to the hospital, but 24 hours later, I don't think she was.

[Blaine Alexander]

She was gone. Wow. To hear him describe having to tell the children that, no matter how you say it, it's not gonna soften the blow at all.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You're giving somebody information that's gonna split their life in two.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about Greg Biggs. He's a former FBI agent.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yes. Greg Biggs was under no obligation to help Madison, but he did, and he made a tremendous difference, I thought, because he started uncovering all kinds of, like, little things in the investigation that hadn't made sense, things that the. That a defense attorney would use. And he uttered a memorable line that the women of a date with Dateline talk about all the time and that many people talk with me about. In fact, I have a screenshot of this moment with Chiron on, you know, with the subtitles in my phone, which I send to people sometimes, which is, I kissed a dead dog on the road when I was 17. Which he said, right?

[Blaine Alexander]

Yes. When he said this, he said, you know, kids do foolish things all the time. I'm like, yeah, I'm with you. Kids do. Do silly things, like. Of course we all do. He's like, yeah, let me tell you my story. I kissed a dead dog I was like, wait, wait, I can't go with you there.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I. Yeah, I believe it was some kind of like, probably pre college, high school, college road trip. He was with his friends, and it was either a dare or losing a bet. I can't quite remember that little moment. Which, of course, has nothing to do with Madison Holton.

[Blaine Alexander]

He certainly illustrated to us that there is a very wide spectrum of kids do foolish things when they're young.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I was doing a story once, I said in the interview with one of the people in the case, I said, you know, I jumped off the garage holding an umbrella like I was Mary Poppins. Right. Cause I thought it would be like a parachute. Right. And guess what? Yeah, it wasn't.

[Blaine Alexander]

Didn't work, I'm assuming.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

No. Landed in a bush. I got cuts on my arms. I mean, I'm lucky I didn't break anything, but I didn't. Yeah.

[Blaine Alexander]

Can I ask, how old were you when you tried this flying experiment?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I was 37. No, I was. I was. This was just last year.

[Blaine Alexander]

Grown man.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Yeah, I was. Well, let's see. We were not living in the United. Would have been probably seven. That's what I think. Seven or eight.

[Blaine Alexander]

Okay.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. But, yeah, within that realm.

[Blaine Alexander]

Within that safe realm of. Okay, this is cute. And it makes sense, right?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Like, so like post seeing Mary Poppins or the wizard of Oz, both of which have, I believe, scenes in which people are. Use umbrellas in. Are carried by the wind.

[Blaine Alexander]

It could make sense. I could see who that could follow.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I was 7 years old and clearly influenced by. By things I saw on television.

[Blaine Alexander]

But insofar as the case is involved, he was an interesting character in that too. Right. Madison kind of said, this guy was my guardian angel. They met essentially by chance.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, they met in a church group. And I really do think that without Greg Biggs involvement, the case against Madison Holton would have gotten into a courtroom. I Do.

[Blaine Alexander]

You know, what does that say about the initial investigation? That somebody from the outside, a former FBI agent, could come through and say, no, this was wrong, this was wrong, this was wrong. Certainly you kind of have to look at the initial investigation and say, okay, I mean, maybe there are some questions.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. I mean, to give. To give the benefit of the doubt to local law enforcement down there. This is a little more complicated case than they usually get. And, you know, this is not a jurisdiction that gets a tremendous amount of murders on which forensics tell one story and eyewitnesses tell a completely different one. And you can't tell which is which because even the forensics, like, were a little bit, you know, flawed. Like there wasn't any blood on Madison, so he shoots mom and dad, but then there's no, there's no blood spatter and there's clearly he doesn't have time to, like, change his clothes or wash it off in those 11 minutes. So that was something that sort of was a hole in the, in the armor of the state's case. We look at investigations all the time and sometimes big, elaborate investigations by, by major departments that get a lot of homicides. Sometimes there can be a thing or two that they should have done differently and that can make the differ. I mean, in this case, like, at first, clearly law enforcement thought this was a murder suicide. Again, which is something that's going to come out at trial. I mean, like any defense attorney is going to say, you know, in their opening statement. Law enforcement believed at first that this Michael's parents in a murder suicide because their marriage was failing. And they were right. That's what they thought and they were correct. And we don't need to go any farther than that.

[Blaine Alexander]

When we come back, we have an extra clip from Madison Holton himself.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, everyone in podcast land. I just wanted to thank you all for listening and telling your friends about our little podcast. Let's talk off camera with me, Kelly Ripa. I know there are millions of podcasts out there, so I really appreciate you giving us a listen. There are so many gems from season one from Matthew McConaughey disclosing that he and Woody Harrelson might be brothers to Salma Hayek telling us about the argument that started her friendship with Prince. Hope you enjoy season one and stay tuned for a bigger and better season two.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

CIDP is no walk in the park. It can make your daily routine feel not so routine. The good news, there's a treatment option for chronic inflammatory, demyelinating polyneurosis that may fit into your routine. Discover more at innovationforcidp.com and talk to your doctor. That's innovation4cidp.com brought to you by Argenics.

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[Blaine Alexander]

One most trusted app based on August 2024 proprietary survey. Over 500,000 new listings every month based on average new for sale and rental listings. February 2024 through January 2025. Let's talk about the march up to trial, the lead up to trial that never happens. You point this out and I think that this was such a strong point to make in this story. But life sentence feels daunting. And then two life sentences feels, you know, also daunting. But when you're 17 years old, I can't imagine walking into trial what you think will be a trial with that on the table, possibly ahead of you.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, I mean like it's, it's, you know, it's, you don't get to think to yourself, well, I've had a pretty good life because you've had almost no life at that point. And suddenly you're realizing the rest of it's going to be in a place like where I've been locked up, only worse with some scarier people. That is a daunting future to look at. And I think he thought I said absolutely. Until Greg Biggs got involved, I sort of felt like Madison thought he was probably going to get convicted even with the support of his uncles. Sure.

[Blaine Alexander]

You know, what happens next almost sounds like something out of a courtroom TV show. Right. Everyone starts rushing around, there's a flurry of activity, and then suddenly the charges are dropped.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Look, prosecutors have a duty under the legal canons of ethics not to bring cases that they don't think they can win. And it's one reason why, and we've talked about this before, one reason why these, these murder prosecutors go into court and they got a record of like, you know, 29 and 1, you know, like they almost never lose. And that's because they have an overwhelming case before they go in. And this prosecutor did not have an overwhelming case. And I think they thought we are going to lose and we cannot be confident that we will win. And if you're not confident that you're going to win, you are not supposed to bring the case, they drop the.

[Blaine Alexander]

Charges and that end, like you said, that's the ethically responsible thing to do.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Oh, no question, no question. And again, you have leave to represent if you want. I mean, if you get more evidence, you know. Look, look, we talk about this all the time. What leads to a prosecution when there couldn't have been one before. And it's two things. Changes in technology, changes in circumstance. Right, Changes in technology. Suddenly you can get touch DNA from places where you couldn't get it before. Suddenly this person was in that room. They said they weren't in that room, but we now know they were in that room because their DNA was on the doorknob on the inside. So that story they told us about not being there, they're lying. That's one way. The other is, you know, I am not in love with you anymore and I'm not going to lie for you anymore. And when I said that you were with me when that person got killed, I'm not going to tell that lie anymore. Changes in technology, changes in circumstance. Either one of those could get Madison Holton back in a courtroom.

[Blaine Alexander]

Of course you talk to Madison. Sometimes we do these stories where someone is exonerated and you know they're not going to be tried again. They can move on with their life, having to wonder or worry. That's not the case for Madison here. He could face charges again. Let's listen to the two of you talking about that.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, they can refile.

[Chris Owenby]

Yeah, they can.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And I think they'd like to.

[Chris Owenby]

Oh, they would love to. But at the end of the day, they're going to lose either way. They think they're all good. They think they're this and that because they're police, but they're not. They're just human beings at the end of the day, just like me.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You don't think they have a case?

[Chris Owenby]

They don't have a case. They didn't have a case in the first place.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You think you should never have been arrested?

[Chris Owenby]

Oh, without a doubt I should have never been arrested.

[Blaine Alexander]

Listening to him, there's no wavering in his voice.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I agree, I agree. And also, I mean, he's absolutely, provably right about one thing, which is he never should have been arrested because people who you don't think you have enough evidence to convict should not be arrested. I mean, I think, you know what. But eight years have passed since we did that story. He has not been retried. I think the chances that that's going to happen significantly diminish with each passing.

[Blaine Alexander]

Year, you know, you ended with Madison talking about the fact that he visits his mother's grave, but he doesn't visit his dad's grave, even though they're separated by steps. That has to be just a very big internal struggle for him.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, the fact that he told me that felt like sort of powerful evidence of his lack of guilt. Like. Like you've got to believe that he is one sophisticated criminal to have committed a murder, gotten away with it, and then made up a story like that. That felt to me as if you were telling the truth, which is, I visit my mom's grave. I can't go to my dad's grave and look and look at it and say, I'm sorry that you're not here. I must say, that struck me as genuine.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. Well, like I said, my friend, you packed a whole lot into this hour. There were a lot of twists and turns, and it was a very compelling story. So thanks so much as always for talking DATELINE with me.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Great to see you.

[Blaine Alexander]

And that's it for our talking DATELINE this week. Thanks, of course, to all of you for listening so faithfully every week. Remember, if you have any questions about our stories or a case that you think we should be covering, you can reach out to us at any time on social media, DatelinenBC. And if you've got a question for Tom and you wanna hear your voice right here on this very podcast, you can leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And Keith, Keith will call you back personally if that happens.

[Blaine Alexander]

Well, see, I heard that that rang directly to your landline, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Oh, no, no, it's. It rings right to Keith's desk and he will call you back, like, instantly.

[Blaine Alexander]

And have a long conversation.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yes. Yeah, he's got nothing else to do.

[Blaine Alexander]

So call that line or record yourself and send it to us via DM on social media. Thanks so much for listening. And of course, we will see you Fridays on on NBC. And just one more thing before we go. Remember to check out Andrea's daily coverage of the federal sex trafficking trial of Sean Combs. She's getting updates from NBC News correspondent Chloe Molasse every day after court. And those conversations are dropped in the DATELINE True Crime weekly feed. You can listen to that wherever you get your podcasts.

[Reba McEntire]

Foreign.

[Advertiser]

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