Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Summary: "Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods"

Release Date: February 26, 2025
Host: Blaine Alexander & Andrea Canning

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Introduction

In the "Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods" episode, hosts Blaine Alexander and Andrea Canning delve deep into the harrowing true-crime case featured in Dateline NBC's episode titled "A Walk Through the Woods." This summary encapsulates their discussions, key insights, and the emotional journey surrounding the unresolved murders of two Indiana schoolgirls.

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Case Overview: Libby German and Abby Williams

The tragic case revolves around the 2017 murders of schoolgirls Libby German and Abby Williams in Delphi, Indiana. The girls were found near an abandoned railway bridge, and the case remained unsolved for years. A pivotal clue emerged from a grainy video and audio recording captured on Libby's phone moments before the murders.

Blaine Alexander provides a succinct recap:

"In 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near an abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved with police at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a grating voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders. It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls' murders."
(00:57)

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The Eerie Setting: The Abandoned Railway Bridge

Andrea Canning discusses the ominous location of the crime:

"The bridge is still there. You know, the dangerous ties. People. If you wanted to go out on it, you could. You could find a way."
(03:21)

The bridge, approximately 63 feet high, provided a chilling backdrop for the crime, emphasizing the vulnerability and isolation of the victims.

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Impact on the Families

The hosts express profound empathy for the families, especially Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky.

Andrea Canning shares a heartfelt moment:

"Mike and Becky were so nice, and I commended them because there's a lot of grandparents who end up taking in their grandchildren as their own because of issues going on in the family... They had a Disney World vacation planned... she had to call and take Libby off of the reservation. You know, just broke her when she had to do that."
(04:24)

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Investigation Breakthrough: The Phone Recording

A crucial breakthrough came from the recording on Libby's phone. Andrea highlights Libby's bravery:

"Libby helped solve her own crime, you know, and the crime of her best friend... hats off to Libby, who, by the way, was a big fan of crime dramas."
(05:50)

This recording captured both audio and a fragment of video, which eventually led investigators closer to the perpetrator.

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Red Herrings: Anthony Schatz and Kegen Klein

The investigation faced significant red herrings, notably involving suspects Anthony Schatz and Kegen Klein. The hosts discuss how these leads ultimately diverted attention but failed to hold.

Blaine Alexander remarks on the deflection:

"That whole episode with Anthony, Schatz, Kegan Klein, I mean, that really was a red herring."
(08:31)

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The Trial: Pretrial Challenges and Verdict

The trial of Richard Allen, the accused murderer, was fraught with challenges. A key pretrial ruling prevented the defense from introducing an alternate theory linking the murders to Odinism, severely weakening their case.

Andrea Canning explains:

"The defense team took me out to the woods and demonstrated how the sticks were placed on the bodies and the blood spatter on the tree... they were convinced that it was a ritualistic killing."
(13:34)

Ultimately, despite concerns about a hung jury, the prosecution presented compelling circumstantial evidence leading to Allen's conviction.

Prosecutor Nick McLeland shares his experience:

"It's the culmination of seven years for me, almost eight years for the family of investigating this offense... to come out with a guilty verdict... it's just a huge weight off your shoulders."
(17:05 – 18:08)

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Community Impact and Lingering Doubts

The conviction had a profound impact on the tight-knit Delphi community, fostering fear and suspicion among residents. While law enforcement and the families are confident in Allen's guilt, some community members remain uncertain.

Andrea Canning notes:

"There's some people that just, you know, that there's still lingering questions or, you know, the defense truly believes Richard Allen is innocent."
(18:27)

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Emotional Toll on the Hosts

Both hosts share the emotional difficulty of covering such a tragic and personal story.

Andrea Canning reflects:

"I was just fighting back tears... how would you feel if someone could do that to two teenage girls."
(19:17 – 20:11)

Blaine Alexander acknowledges:

"I could imagine watching you. I could tell just where your heart was in this story."
(20:32)

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Listener Questions and Responses

The hosts address several listener concerns and questions:

1. Delayed Police Action
   Listener Ronnie Brock asks why the police waited five years to follow up on a suspect's confession.
   Andrea Canning responds by highlighting the lack of detective involvement:

   "It goes back to the conservation officer that unfortunately just didn't have that spidey sense that maybe a detective might have."
   (23:25 – 23:50)

2. Bridge Height Clarification
   Jerry Lynn inquires about the bridge's height.
   Andrea Canning provides the exact measurement:

   "63Ft."
   (23:55)

3. Richard Allen’s Criminal Record
   Daniel Welcher questions whether Richard Allen had a prior criminal history.
   Andrea Canning confirms:

   "No. That was what was so strange about the whole thing..."
   (24:23 – 24:31)

4. Motive Behind the Murders
   Gracie Donaldson Cipriano asks about the lack of a clear motive for Richard Allen.
   Andrea Canning acknowledges the ambiguity:

   "That's the million dollar question... it's just bizarre."
   (24:36 – 25:20)

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Conclusion

The "Talking Dateline: A Walk Through the Woods" episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the complex and emotionally charged Delphi case. Through insightful discussions and exclusive interviews, Blaine Alexander and Andrea Canning provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the investigation, trial, and lasting community effects. The episode underscores the relentless pursuit of justice and the enduring impact of true-crime stories on those involved.

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For those interested in hearing more, visit Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive content.

Transcript

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[Blaine Alexander]

Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking dateline. I'm joined today by Andrea Canning to discuss her latest episode, A Walk through the Woods. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your DATELINE podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. To recap. In 2017, two schoolgirls, Libby German and Abby Williams, were found murdered in the woods of Delphi, Indiana, near abandoned railway bridge. For years, the case went unsolved and police were at a standstill except for one clue, a grainy picture and a grally voice captured on Libby's phone right before the murders. It would turn out to be a very big clue that helped solve the girls murders. For this episode, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the case's prosecutor, Nick McLeland. Then we'll answer viewer and listener questions from social media. All right. Let's talk dateline.

[Andrea Canning]

Hey, Blaine.

[Blaine Alexander]

Hi, Andrea. How are you?

[Andrea Canning]

I'm good, thank you. This was a tough one for me.

[Blaine Alexander]

I can only imagine. I, I want to dive into that because this was one of those stories that, you know, a lot of our DATELINE cases for viewers and even for us, that they're brand new. Right. You haven't heard about them before. We bring them the episodes. This was something that we all kind of watched play out from beginning to end. Right. Like, I remember having friends cover this. I remember watching it. And when the cell phone video was released, all of that, there's a lot to dive into. I start with just where this actually occurred. That bridge, it was already an eerie kind of setting for a crime like this, right?

[Andrea Canning]

It really was. It was having been out there, it's very high up. It's old, it's dilapidated. It's. You know, the. The ties are kind of far apart. A lot of people would go out on it. But, I mean, you're really playing with fire out on this bridge. Like, if you fall, you're dead. I mean, I said to the sheriff, I was like, you would not catch me ever on that bridge. It was just so scary.

[Blaine Alexander]

I remember that line. And I thought the exact same thing. I mean, was it as high as it seemed?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. That was what surprised me. Now it's been turned into kind of a. Like a recreation place. But before the bridge, there's railings. You know, you can go out there and look out at the wilderness and the creek and everything.

[Blaine Alexander]

Sure.

[Andrea Canning]

But the bridge is still there. You know, the dangerous ties. People. If you wanted to go out on it, you could. You could find a way.

[Blaine Alexander]

There was a lot that was really memorable about this episode. But I have to say that almost as soon as you introduced Libby's grandparents, Mike and Becky, my heart just went out to them, because I can't imagine just this feeling of like, hey, they were just having a sleepover at the house.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Blaine Alexander]

And then the next. The next day, they're gone. Talk to me about what it was like just having that conversation with them.

[Andrea Canning]

It was hard. I was, like, you know, on the verge of tears a few times. Mike and Becky were so nice, and I commended them because there's a lot of grandparents who end up taking in their grandchildren as their own because of issues going on in the family. And I always think how incredible grandparents can be when they are so selfless. And they said they wouldn't have it any other way. And I think they truly enjoyed having the girls there. And something that was not in the show was something that Becky said to me. She said they were. They had a Disney World vacation planned. Of course, the girls died. And she said the hardest thing because it was months later and they decided to go on the trip. And she said she had to call and take Libby off of the reservation. You know, just broke her when she had to do that. Cause it just felt, you know, so real. And they were so excited about the trip.

[Blaine Alexander]

Of course. Of course. Oh, gosh, that's just so, so hard. I'm curious. Did you or did anybody from our Dateline team, Did anyone speak to Abby's family?

[Andrea Canning]

So, Marianne O'Donnell, who's the producer on this story, the lead producer, she was in court every single day, and including Saturdays. This court was on Saturdays, too. So she Got to know everyone. And Abby's family just, they did not do a whole lot there with the media. They were not particularly outspoken about everything, which is understandable, given what they went through.

[Blaine Alexander]

Absolutely. Absolutely understandable. Let's talk about this investigation. I think, Andrea, for stories like this that so many of us follow kind of almost in real time, I'm almost even more fascinated to watch the Dateline episode because I think that I know a lot about a case. And then the episode brings forth some more that I didn't know. And the thing that I think all of us remember is that eerie recording from Libby's phone. They have this image now of the murderer, his voice. And really, the girls helped bring down their own killer.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, I mean, I said that to the prosecutor. I said it was like Libby helped solve her own crime, you know, and the crime of her best friend. I don't think I've ever covered a story where someone has the wherewithal, you know, to pull out their phone, feeling, you know, something's not right here, and just hitting record. So, you know, hats off to Libby, who, by the way, was a big fan of crime dramas. You know, she loves, like, csi, and she loved the show Body of Proof. And also, you know, I'll say, too, Mike Patty, her grandfather, he also really instilled, you know, safety in her and everything. And we know how tweens and teens are with their phones. I guess all those factors came together, and she just had that instinct to pull out her phone.

[Blaine Alexander]

I'm curious. You know, one of the things that we heard was that recording and the words down the hill. Right. And correct me if I'm wrong, but that was the only portion that was released. I didn't realize that they actually had, what, 43 seconds, is that of audio?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, 43 seconds of audio and video. And, you know, I knew viewers would wonder, why didn't they release the whole video? We never got a straight answer, really, of why they didn't. I think they also felt like seeing the images, seeing the snippet of him walking was enough.

[Blaine Alexander]

Well, I, I, I have another question about that. I wonder, did the video lead investigators astray at all? I mean, it led to people kind of pointing fingers at friends, acquaintances online, just anyone that they could think about that even slightly resembled Bridge Guy.

[Andrea Canning]

I mean, I think they had to, you know, that happened. Sure. People were pointing fingers at each other and, you know, everyone was a suspect. But, you know, they, they had to release that video. Right? I mean, how could you not? Sure, because someone might have Recognized something. And, you know, the killer, his wife had seen the story on the news and said, hey, you were out there that day, around that time. You, you know, the police are saying, come talk to us. You know, if you were. If you were out there on the trails. And so he did, you know, Richard Allen went to the police. Unfortunately, he didn't get with a detective. He got with a conservation officer. Like, I know the now sheriff who was a detective, said he didn't even know about Richard Allen. Like, it never even got to him.

[Blaine Alexander]

So that is unbelievable. Before we go further into Richard Allen, something that was really interesting about this episode to me. There were obviously alternate suspects. Let's talk about Anthony Schatz or Kegen Klein. Yeah, that was an. A journey. That was interesting.

[Andrea Canning]

That was like a really big time red herring.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yes, absolutely. It was. First, I want to say I. I loved that we had these interviews that, like, Court TV reporter had done, like, wthr, Barbara. Yeah. I mean, to have that interview with the guy whose real picture it was while he was working out on a workout machine.

[Andrea Canning]

I know, by the way, like, I don't think I've ever done what's going on there, but I don't think I've interviewed any people like that on a. Like, who are working out.

[Blaine Alexander]

Like, can I just say I appreciate the multitasking. Okay. He said, no excus. We're getting it in today.

[Andrea Canning]

I know. It's so funny. Yeah, I know. So funny. Like, and it was so funny to think that he was a model and now he's like, a police officer in Alaska. He's like. He's like, wait a second. Why am I getting dragged into this murder investigation?

[Blaine Alexander]

I just want to go on the record and say, next time we do a talking dateline, perhaps we could do it from the peloton and that way.

[Andrea Canning]

Right. Oh, my gosh.

[Blaine Alexander]

No excuses to not work out here. But that whole episode with Anthony, Schatz, Kagan, Klein, I mean, that really was.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes.

[Blaine Alexander]

Talk about a red herring. But I'm sure that when detectives kind of found those conversations with Libby, they were like, okay, this.

[Andrea Canning]

This is it.

[Blaine Alexander]

Case closed. We gotta die.

[Andrea Canning]

I think they kept thinking that, like, you know, I mean, they thought it was gonna be solved within, you know, a week.

[Blaine Alexander]

Mm.

[Andrea Canning]

And it just didn't happen.

[Blaine Alexander]

I would imagine this had a tremendous impact on this community.

[Andrea Canning]

You know, everybody was just fearful. Delphi is just a tiny, you know, little community. And you can only imagine, like, you're there to raise your family and, you know, have kids. And like where they feel safe and where you can drop them off at the trails for the afternoon and not think twice.

[Blaine Alexander]

And you know everybody. That's the creepy thing. You feel like you know everybody. So now you're looking and it's like, okay, these people that I know is one of you guys, like, are we in the same restaurant with the person who did this? Are you next to me at the stoplight?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, exactly. And you know, I was. Everyone is so nice there. I was actually rear ended. I was in a rental. Yeah. And like a service type van, like just crashes right into the back of me. And he's like, meet me over at the fire. There was a fire station like right there. And so I went. And he was so nice. He's like, I'm so sorry. That was my fault. I feel like if I was in New York, they'd be like, you know, why stop at a stop sign?

[Blaine Alexander]

Exactly. First, they wouldn't have told you to meet anyone over anywhere. They would have just like yelled at you and probably kept going.

[Andrea Canning]

But it was funny though, because it was like, it just showed you just how nice.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Like, you know, like there was no animosity, no fighting, no, like, denying. No just. I'm so sorry.

[Blaine Alexander]

I'm sure you were on your way to an interview or something.

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, I was. We had, we had to start late. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Blaine Alexander]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, Andrea is going to share a podcast exclusive clip from her interview with the prosecutor in this case, Nick McClelland.

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[Blaine Alexander]

Let'S talk about the trial. And before we can talk about the trial, of course we have to talk about the pre trial hearing and kind of the judge ruling that the defense could not introduce this alternate theory that the murders were tied to Odinism. First talk about what that was. And that was a tremendous blow to the defense.

[Andrea Canning]

It was like the fireworks really happened pretrial more than in trial. So if you watch the episode, you know, to our listeners, the defense team took me out to the woods and, you know, demonstrated how the sticks were placed on the bodies and the blood spatter on the tree.

[Blaine Alexander]

And that was fascinating, by the way.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. I mean they were convinced that it was, you know, a ritualistic killing. Whereas the sheriff who was the former detective said that he just felt like the sticks were kind of just like haphazardly thrown on the girlfriend to try to cover them. But I mean, one thing is that there were not. It was a very bad attempt. I mean, if he wanted to cover them up, it certainly didn't accomplish that.

[Blaine Alexander]

Sure.

[Andrea Canning]

So who knows.

[Blaine Alexander]

And so having that not be allowed in, I mean that kind of upends their defense in a way. Right. Like they have to go on trial in a very, in a different posture.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. Well, and not they weren't allowed any like other suspects. So it was just, they just had to find what they could like to defend Richard Allen. I mean the defense went hard on the his, you know, confessions which they said were under extreme duress, that that's what happens when, you know, someone is placed in solitary like that for months. So Richard Allen was actually, you know, most of our viewers at this point, I feel like, and listeners know the difference between jail and prison. Right. Jail is if you've been charged with murder, you will go to a jail until your trial and throughout your trial and then if you're convicted, then you'll be, you know, carted off to a state prison somewhere or a federal prison. In this case, they actually sent Richard Allen to prison.

[Blaine Alexander]

Why?

[Andrea Canning]

They said it was for his own safety. I was in the jail in Delphi, and I did talk to the sheriff about the jail, and he said that they were understaffed. Richard Allen would have ended up with other people. It's just too small. So they said that's why they just made this decision to send him to the prison. And then why he goes into solitary, they say is for his own safety. But there were stories of him, like, doing things with his feces and that he's in his underwear and he's like. You know, the defense made it sound like he basically was, like, losing his mind in there. So they kind of. They kind of call them, like, almost like false confessions.

[Blaine Alexander]

That's really interesting. Something that stood out to me was, I believe it was his defense attorney who was basically saying, hey, when you talk about matching the physical description, he's wearing, what, jeans and a Carhartt jacket? Like, everybody's wearing jeans and Carhartt jacket. Yeah, Carhartt hoodie. So I wonder about those just kind of differences or the. Or the kind of. The pushback of, like, does he exactly match the description of this guy?

[Andrea Canning]

Well, the defense would say that he doesn't match that. You know, there were differences in height and, you know, that the prosecutor, we pointed out, never actually had that moment, that Perry Mason moment in court. You know, point the killer out, the man you saw. Like, they didn't even do that. Also, we should mention, too, that we have an extra clip that you did not see in the show. This is a clip from the Prosecutor.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah, Nick McLeland, now the prosecutor talking about what it was like waiting for the jury to come back with a verdict.

[Nick McLeland]

I didn't expect a verdict. In five minutes, we had three to four weeks of evidence. They had shown through their jury questions that they were very interested. Jury. They were paying attention. So we knew they were going to examine every piece of evidence carefully and not come to a decision in a hastily manner.

[Andrea Canning]

Are you starting to think this could be a not guilty?

[Nick McLeland]

No, I never believed it could be a not guilty. I thought there was too much evidence to be not guilty. My fear was a hung jury.

[Andrea Canning]

Come back in Monday morning, the verdict is read, and it is guilty. What is that moment like for your team? You thinking about the family, all the hard work that you've put into this?

[Nick McLeland]

As you can imagine, it's the culmination of, you know, seven years for me, almost eight years for the family of investigating this offense, Another two years of preparing for trial. Then, you know, the trial in itself. Just imagine the culmination of that. And to come out with a guilty verdict, obviously, it's what we wanted. We think that brings justice to Abby and Libby and some piece of the family. And so it's just a huge weight off your shoulders.

[Andrea Canning]

There were people who were very concerned about a hung jury because even though it didn't look good for Richard Allen, there was still a lot of circumstantial evidence.

[Blaine Alexander]

Do you find that there is still. Even though he's been convicted, is there still some doubt about this in the town? Like, where do people land on where the verdict?

[Andrea Canning]

I mean. Yeah, well, it's like, you know, I, of course, didn't talk to, like, tons of people in town.

[Blaine Alexander]

Sure.

[Andrea Canning]

I know law enforcement, of course, believes they have the right man. The families 100% believe they have the right man. But there's some people that just, you know, that there's still lingering questions or, you know, the defense truly believes Richard Allen is innocent. I mean, they have a job to do, but they also believe he's innocent.

[Blaine Alexander]

Before we wrap up this portion of our conversation, Andrea, I wanna circle back to something that you said at the beginning of just how difficult this case was. The story was for you to cover personally. And I mean, I wanted to ask you about that. I know that you are a mom. You are a girl mom. And you even mentioned that for a bit in the episode of the similarity in ages with two of your girls. How did you kind of make your way through this story?

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, I mean, it just really, like, I was just fighting back tears. It was really sad for me because I always say, like, you know, the closest you're going, you can get to these people and their feelings.

[Al Roker]

It.

[Andrea Canning]

And it's not very close, but is to imagine that this. These are your kids, these are your daughters, you know, how would you feel? And as soon as you do that, you just kind of like, ugh. Like, it's. It's hard to think about. Right. That that could happen. It's just so hard to imagine that someone could do that to two teenage girls. But he did. Like, the worst thing is when. And Blaine, your kids aren't old enough yet, but, like, when you try to reach your child and they're not answering their phone or their phone goes straight to voicemail.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And you try them more times, and then you're like, what, you know, what's going on? Why is it going straight to voicemail? Is it. Did the battery die?

[Blaine Alexander]

Did they don't have service?

[Andrea Canning]

Are they okay? Like, you know, and in this case, this was the nightmare, you know, where they're calling and nobody's answering, and then the hours start to tick by and then it gets dark and then there's still no. They don't know where they are. And like, you just would do anything to know where that child is.

[Blaine Alexander]

Well, no, I can imagine watching you. I could tell just where your heart was in this story. And I think that you just did a really beautiful job with it.

[Andrea Canning]

So thank you. And I don't wanna scare my daughters, but I wanna say to them, be so grateful for what you have. I believe it was Mike. Patty. He said, hug your children and don't take them for granted and just appreciate every moment because even though, you know, bad things aren't gonna happen to everyone's children, they will grow up, too. And so you need to just appreciate those moments, even just, you know, they're young.

[Blaine Alexander]

Colleen.

[Andrea Canning]

It goes, you know, it goes fast.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. Everyone says it, and I completely believe it. So thank you for that and thank you for. Thank you for this. This episode was just. It was moving in so many ways, truly. Okay, and after the break, we will be back to answer viewer and listener questions from social media.

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[Blaine Alexander]

We've got some social media questions. There were a lot of reactions to this, so I'll just read through a few. Ronnie Brock says, how could the police wait five years to follow up on a man who tells them he was there? Police could have gone to his home and found the jacket and pants he was wearing that day. I mean, it's something we talked about.

[Andrea Canning]

This goes back to the conservation officer that unfortunately just didn't have that spidey sense that maybe a detective might have, you know, like, I don't know, I haven't talked to this man. Um, I know that law enforcement was. Every time I would bring him up, they were careful to sort of protect him a little bit too. Um, no, but there was no, you know, saying he did the wrong thing or anything like that.

[Blaine Alexander]

Okay. Jerry Lynn wrote on Facebook, how high off the ground Was that bridge?

[Andrea Canning]

63Ft.

[Blaine Alexander]

63Ft.

[Andrea Canning]

Um. Yeah. When you're standing up there, it feels even higher.

[Blaine Alexander]

I am sure.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Blaine Alexander]

I have to say, I have. I actually have a fear of heights. It comes and goes, but it would. I couldn't have done.

[Andrea Canning]

You wouldn't like it. No, you would not like this.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah, we would have had to come up with a different way to shoot that if I could not have been up there. So my hat's off to you because that was amazing. Okay. Daniel Welcher on Facebook says, did Richard Allen have any criminal record before this?

[Andrea Canning]

No.

[Blaine Alexander]

None. Nothing.

[Andrea Canning]

That was what was so strange about the whole thing is like suddenly he snaps, you know, just didn't. Just didn't make any sense.

[Blaine Alexander]

And then we have an audio question from Gracie Donaldson Cipriano. Let's listen.

[I]

Hi, Dateline team. Gracie Donaldson Cipriano here with a question for talking Dateline. While it was really good to see a guilty verdict, we don't know why Richard Allen killed Abby and Libby. There was no clear motive if it wasn't Odinism and it wasn't personal as he didn't know the girls and it didn't seem like he was a serial killer. Why?

[Andrea Canning]

That's the million dollar question, which we, you know, we did raise that in the show. You know, you don't need a motive in court. You don't need a motive as a prosecutor to try a case. But juries like them because they want to know why, you know, well, why'd this guy do it? And that was the one thing that nobody seemed to have an answer for. Just bizarre.

[Blaine Alexander]

It's so strange, too, because you're absolutely right. You want that resolution at the end. But no, it's in the truest sense, a senseless crime. Well, Andrea, we have talked a lot of DATELINE today. Thank you so much. This was just a fascinating conversation. As always.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you.

[Blaine Alexander]

And that's it for talking DATELINE this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us 24, 7 on social media, DatelineNBC and exciting news. You can now submit your questions over the phone. Just call 212-413-5252 and leave a message with your question about DATELINE and our episodes for a chance to be featured on talking dateline. And also remember to check out Keith's brand new podcast, murder in the Moonlight. It's about a double murder in the Great Plains and an investigation that came down to one single shiny clue. And as of today, DATELINE Premium subscribers can binge the entire series. And episodes one through four are available for everyone else. And of course, we'll see you this Friday on DATELINE on NBC for my very first show as a full time DATELINE correspondent. Thanks so much for listening.

[Dateline Host]

A true crime story never really ends, even when a case is closed. The journey for those left behind is just beginning.

[Grand Canyon University Representative]

Since our DATELINE story aired, Tracy has harnessed her outrage into a mission.

[Andrea Canning]

I had no other option. I had to do something, catch up.

[Dateline Host]

With families, friends and investigators on our bonus series after the Verdict, Ordinary people facing extraordinary circumstances with strength and courage.

[Blaine Alexander]

It does just change your life. But speaking up for these issues helps me keep going.

[Dateline Host]

To listen to after the Verdict, subscribe to DATELINE Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify [e-mail].