Keith Morrison (2:34)

Well, you know, people asked us along the way after this case was adjudicated, how could the family not know for that length of time? How could they believe that he was off on some sort of world tour having fun? Well, the fact is they were very concerned, very worried. But the, these emails were done so skillfully and the, the play that Ed Shin made was so skillful that the family truly was, you know, as any family would be. You want your loved one to be alive. And every email that came along was one that supported that idea.

Blaine Alexander (3:09)

And I. And on top of that, it wasn't necessarily out of his character. Right. He was already someone who kind of went against the conventional. I mean, if I emailed my family and said, hey, guys, I've taken off around the world, they'd say, no, you didn't. That's a lie. Like, you know, that's clearly not you. Clearly there's something going on. Right, Right. But when, when Chris sent an email like this, I said, okay, that's actually something that he would do.

Keith Morrison (3:37)

Something he would do. In fact, our working title for this program was Laguna Surfer. He was a surfer dude and he loved to travel the world and, you know, surf on the best waves wherever he could possibly find them. He did that all the time.

Blaine Alexander (3:51)

You know, I have to say, Keith, I always enjoy hearing you write about California. Oh, it's always, it's always poetic. It's clear that, you know your state, you love it very much. Were there elements of Chris that felt familiar to you? People that, you know, folks that you've come across?

Keith Morrison (4:08)

This is a state that invites people to live a certain kind of lifestyle, and Chris embraced that. You know, you, you hear about all kinds of different Californias. You hear about a troubled one, you hear about a. A fun one. You hear about the one in the sun. You hear about the Hollywood California. They're all true. They just blend together in a, in a strange mix that is intoxicating, really. It's like the song, you know, you can check out, but you can never leave. It's, it's, it draws people in and holds them.

Blaine Alexander (4:38)

California does exactly, exactly. There's something about the left coast. Let's talk about Chris and Ed. They certainly embody the phrase opposites attract when it comes to business partners. We've certainly talked a lot about Chris and the type of person that he was. Ed, though, was. Seemed to be almost the polar opposite, very buttoned up, businessman kind of guy.

Keith Morrison (4:59)

Sure.

Blaine Alexander (4:59)

There. There takes. There's a certain trust that goes into just building a business with somebody. Right.

Keith Morrison (5:06)

I would. You'd think so. He had met Ed Shen at a previous job, and I guess they got along well. He recognized Ed's capabilities, but he didn't know him very well. Clearly didn't know him well enough. Didn't realize that Ed had a dark side. Had a. Had a whole life that was hidden from public view. There's. There are people who can do that. They can have double lives. They live a life which is. You admire, everybody admires. And then they become the Jekyll and Hyde character. And on the other side of it, they are doing terrible things or they're, you know, they're caught up by habits that they cannot control. Ed was a. Was a terrible gambler. He had a gambling addiction. The other personality was over top. Over the top in the other direction.

Blaine Alexander (5:56)

But at the same time, I mean, he was an intelligent guy. He was a smart guy. Right. To pull off something like this, you've got to be pretty intelligent when you talk about sending these types of emails and knowledge of digital footprint, that type of thing.

Keith Morrison (6:08)

And that's another puzzlement. A certain kind of character who. Who can be very bright, but at the same time, so a slave to his habits.

Blaine Alexander (6:19)

The prosecutor that you spoke to, I love this prosecutor, by the way. We see this guy and then suddenly reveal. Suddenly we realize, okay, he. He too is part of the surfing community. And I think that added a richness to the story and also probably helped his prosecution because he knew certain things. Like you said you'd never leave on a surfing trip and just not take your surfboards.

Keith Morrison (6:38)

You know, Matt Murphy was a longtime prosecutor in Orange county, and he had a lot of success with a variety of cases. He's simply a good prosecutor. He doesn't prosecute anymore, but he was at the top of his game during this case.

Blaine Alexander (6:52)

Absolutely. So he referred to Ed Shin as a con man. And I think what was so fascinating about this story, I have to say I was following along. I was right in it all the way until the end. But then when you teased right before the last block that you actually sat down and talked to Ed, that's when I was leaning all the way in. I said, oh, okay, now we're gonna ramp this up about 10 degrees. So I'm curious. We talk about a lot of these folks in our stories. It's very rare that we actually get to sit down across from them. I'm curious what sense you got from Ed when You were sitting down with him.

Keith Morrison (7:28)

Well, I think it's a very good question. We sat around outside waiting to be allowed to go in to talk to Ed. I was surprised that he had agreed to speak to us. And then it looked like may maybe we wouldn't be able to, and then maybe we would, maybe we wouldn't. And finally he decided to do it. So he was undecided himself, I think. But we trooped and we set up a. A very elaborate system where we could have a camera on one side of the glass and a camera on the other side of the glass and be able to record something like a normal conversation. And Ed was brought in and he was very polite and he was, you know, clearly a bright man. And we talked about his religion a little bit, we talked about his family. We talked about things like that before we got down to the. The case at hand. And that's when it became apparent to me that he had done this in order to. To present the. The good Ed to the public and try to snow them as he had tried to snow his victim, that he tried to snow the trial, try to persuade everybody that he is that, you know, God fearing, lovely father of four who, you know, wouldn't harm a fly, or if he did, it was merely in self defense. But there's a, you know, there was a tactical reason for that, I guess, because, you know, there's a possibility, remote though it may seem, that he could somehow, you know, win an appeal someday or have his case dismissed. As unlikely as that may seem, he, like a great many people in prison, just won't go that extra mile to confess what they have done because. Because they hope that they get exonerated someday. But he was. He was so adamant about. I. It just made me kind of cross because he wouldn't do that thing for the family, which would give them a little bit of peace knowing that they have their son's body and he just wouldn't go there.

Blaine Alexander (9:42)

Well, I think that this exchange yielded maybe one of your most famous date lines. I don't give a sweet flying f. I don't know if I can say this on a podcast.

Keith Morrison (9:55)

I don't give a sweet flying about that. I don't. I don't care. I kind of care. Well, you do care that the family has a chance to get some closure. You know, I was just trying to. To make a point and I was fed up and I was just trying to, you know, tell him how important this was.

Blaine Alexander (10:13)

Your frustration came through in that moment. Yeah, well, when we come Back you'll hear more of Keith's interview with Joe Delew, the private investigator who really helped crack this case.

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Blaine Alexander (11:57)

You know, there are several things about this that was that were interesting to me. One about Joe Delew kind of coming into the picture, one, how long this there was about a year or so between when Chris, you know, disappeared, sent that email saying, hey, I'm signing off around the world. And when he went in and looked, I was surprised that I guess nobody had rented this place but that so much of this evidence was still there.

Keith Morrison (12:21)

Yes. Well, it happened at a time when office spaces were not being rented immediately like that, when the economy was in a bit of a dip in that area. And so the place sat empty for a year. And Joe just happened to be interested enough to go in and have a look. If he hadn't done that, we wouldn't be sitting here.

Blaine Alexander (12:39)

We have an extra clip of your interview with Joe. I was fascinated by just his presence in this story. So let's take A little listen to that bit of the conversation.

Keith Morrison (12:48)

Okay.

Joe Delew (12:49)

So we went in there and we investigated. I remember looking in the break room area, and on the light switch, there was what appeared to be blood to me, just a small speck of blood.

Keith Morrison (13:03)

So.

Joe Delew (13:03)

And you could see it through the contrast of it because it was on white. Sure. So then we looked, and we noticed another small size, about the same size smudge on the door jamb of Chris's office. So at this point, we backed out. We thought we had something serious, especially with the blood that we suspected was blood. And I contacted Orange County Sheriff's Department, talked to Don Vogt, investigator Don Vogt. Don and I went to high school together. We grew up together. We're neighbors. And I remember telling him, I said, don, call me. I found blood in the office. I will tell you that I actually believe there's something higher that brought us on this case. Everything just came together. It's almost like this was just meant to be.

Blaine Alexander (14:03)

You know, I think that many of us have done stories where someone in the story says something along those lines. There was a higher power, or everything came together. Or had it not been for just almost, that the victim themselves are crying out, in a sense, wanting to be found, wanting to solve this case, that it wouldn't have come together. But that really was the linchpin in all of this. Him going into that office.

Keith Morrison (14:32)

It was. And the fact that he would look at a little bit of blood on the light switch. Not much, just a little tiny smear on the back of a door, and that would be enough for him to say, this wasn't just somebody who cut himself shaving and he's walking out of the office to. To fix it. This was something more serious. An experienced investigator who's been around for a while and has seen a lot of blood spatter and knows what they look like and what the. What the ones look like that you have to worry about. So, yeah, there was some luck involved. But also, Joe Delou was a pretty capable guy.

Blaine Alexander (15:08)

Certainly was. Let's talk about the family, because this story is the perfect example of how often it's the family, the family's determination, the family saying, yeah, something's not right, or, you've got to look into this disappearance, or just really advocating for their loved one, that gets a case moving. You know, there's so many elements of this story, Keith, that remind me of a story that I did out of Tennessee where a family really did push for this investigation. But the person who was ultimately convicted of killing this Young woman was doing the exact same thing. I mean, posting to social media, trying to throw people off the scent, sending Snapchat messages and messages to her family to make it appear as though she was alive. And the family looked at those messages and said, no, this, this isn't her. This isn't Jazzy. It was her name. I'm curious, as we get as you know, we as a society start leaning more and more on technology, social media, other things like that, do you think that we're going to continue to see more cases like this, a higher cases?

Keith Morrison (16:09)

Sure.

Blaine Alexander (16:10)

Where people try and, you know, cover up deaths with digital footprints.

Keith Morrison (16:16)

You know, if you're skillful enough, you could almost now or soon, in a matter of just a few years, be able to, you know, have somebody make a phone call and it sounds exactly like them. And so you assume it is. And, you know, AI is going to make a big difference for good and for ill. And you can be sure that people who want to do bad things are going to be just as eager, maybe more so to use AI for their purposes than people who want to do good things. Because the people who have done bad things are more desperate and therefore they, they'll use anything to try to cover up their guilt. And I can see technology being used for nefarious purposes a lot in the coming years.

Blaine Alexander (17:00)

It's a, it's a scary thing. It is a scary thing. And coming up, we'll answer some of your questions from social media.

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Keith Morrison (17:09)

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Watch the Today show weekday mornings at 7:00am on NBC.

Blaine Alexander (17:39)

So, Keith, as you can imagine, this episode certainly sparked a lot of social media comments and questions. So let's go to some of those. Othearnbeachgirl writes, I wonder what the girlfriend felt when she found out that he didn't really dump her after she said all those things about him. It's a good point.

Keith Morrison (17:56)

She felt pretty bad. And she, of course, recognized that all those things she said about him were said in haste and she wished she hadn't.

Blaine Alexander (18:04)

This next one is a fantastic question. It's one that I actually had while watching this if you look at the email's system details, you can tell where the email comes from. Why didn't a detective do that?

Keith Morrison (18:15)

Well, that's, you know, that was one of the ways that the investigation finally turned, is that they were able to do some of those things. That was one of the investigative tools that led to a bit of a breakthrough.

Blaine Alexander (18:29)

Well, as you could expect, we have several comments about your interview at the end with Ed Shen, specifically your line. So Maura A. Writes, this is my favorite Keith jail interview, so certainly a high bar, but we have some favorites there.

Keith Morrison (18:46)

My, my, my.

Blaine Alexander (18:48)

Well, and then another one we have. Othearnbeach girl writes, Keith just cursed.

Keith Morrison (18:54)

Whoa, whoa. Yeah, well, I allegedly cursed. It seems to me they beeped it. So maybe. Maybe nobody heard it because there was a beep. Yeah. So perhaps they didn't say that word after.

Blaine Alexander (19:07)

We don't know what was said.

Keith Morrison (19:08)

Right, there you go.

Blaine Alexander (19:10)

We don't know what word was said neath the beat, do we? Can you think of any other interviews, Keith, where something like this has happened? Frustration, profanity.

Keith Morrison (19:20)

Lori Valo pops to mind immediately. That was a. One of the stranger interviews ever.

Blaine Alexander (19:27)

I'm in trial coming up, as you know. Do you know that, Keith?

Keith Morrison (19:31)

Oh, I know.

Blaine Alexander (19:31)

Keeping track.

Keith Morrison (19:32)

Oh, yeah, I'm keeping track. There have been several. Quite a few. I remember from long, long ago doing an interview with a. With a. A preacher, ex preacher in prison in Southern California, having decided during his career as a minister that you had to have plural wives. Um, this was a theological point that he thought he had discovered. So he got himself a young wife and tired of her. This is shortening of the story considerably. Tired of her eventually and chopped her into pieces and. And hid her under a carrot out in the desert. And it took them years to figure it out. Long, long time. He was finally apprehended. He was put into prison. And when I interviewed him, he did the same thing. He just simply was infuriating in his refusal to answer any. Any questions at all, even those that wouldn't harm him. But when I, in answer to one of the questions, he said, I'm not so worried about this. And I know that my, you know, the young wife, wife number two will forgive me that when I die and go to heaven, we will be together again and resume our relationship just as it was before. So there are. People have strange ideas a lot of the time. That's why they're in prison.

Blaine Alexander (20:58)

I suppose strange ideas is an understatement, certainly.

Keith Morrison (21:01)

Yeah.

Blaine Alexander (21:01)

Well, this one was. This was a fascinating episode, Keith. It was incredibly well told. It was just a great one to watch. So thank you so much for bringing it to us and for talking DATELINE with me today.

Keith Morrison (21:15)

Thank you, Blaine.

Blaine Alexander (21:16)

And that is it for talking DATELINE this week. Thanks so much for joining us. As always. If you've got a case or a question for the team, remember, you can reach out to us at any time on Social ainenbc. We've also got a handy phone line that you can call that you can leave a voicemail at 212-413-5252. Keith, I'm told that that number actually rings directly to your cell phone. Is that true?

Keith Morrison (21:40)

Endlessly. Yeah, you're right. I pick up every call.

Blaine Alexander (21:47)

I think Josh personally forwarded those phones to those phone calls to you.

Keith Morrison (21:50)

That's right. Exactly right.

Blaine Alexander (21:52)

You can call that hotline or you can send a voice memo in a DM or even send us a video question. And if you haven't heard, we are taking our show on the road on Sunday, September 28th. Please join us in Nashville for Dateline Live, an evening of stories, behind the scenes moments, audience Q&As and a special VIP reception with the teen. It's all happening at the pinnacle right in the heart of Music City. Tickets are available now@datelinenbc.com event and we certainly hope to see you there. And as always, we hope to see you Fridays on DATELINE on NBC.