Talking Dateline: Open Water

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast: Talking Dateline – "Open Water" Episode Summary

Release Date: August 13, 2025

In this special edition of Talking Dateline, host Blaine Alexander engages in an insightful conversation with esteemed guests Josh Mankiewicz and Dateline producer Michelle Madigan. The trio delves deep into the intricacies of the "Open Water" episode, unraveling the layers of a compelling true-crime mystery that captivated listeners.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Blaine Alexander kicks off the discussion by introducing his guests:

• Josh Mankiewicz: A seasoned journalist with extensive experience in covering intricate true-crime stories.
• Michelle Madigan: A producer with a keen eye for detail, responsible for bringing the "Open Water" narrative to life.

Blaine Alexander sets the stage, highlighting the episode's premise:

"When Lonnie Kakantis invited his wife, Mickey Kanasaki, on a European cruise, she thought it would be a great opportunity to rekindle their relationship. But Mickey never got that opportunity." [01:20]

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2. Recap of the "Open Water" Episode

The episode centers on Lonnie Kakantis, a lawyer who orchestrates a European cruise ostensibly to mend his estranged marriage. However, days into the voyage, Mickey disappears under mysterious circumstances. As the investigation unfolds, suspicions fall on Lonnie, prompting his friends Bill and Susan to take matters into their own hands to exonerate him.

Josh Mankiewicz reflects on the emotional complexity of the story:

"This is the mark of a good DATELINE episode... you have an emotional roller coaster." [02:15]

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3. Emotional and Narrative Journey

The trio discusses the emotional twists viewers experience, mirroring Blaine's personal reaction:

"About 18 minutes in I thought Lonnie did it. Then I changed my mind at 22 minutes... That's the mark of a good DATELINE episode." [02:15] – Blaine Alexander

Jim Mankiewicz adds depth by characterizing Lonnie as a highly intelligent lawyer, whose professional prestige added layers to his perceived innocence.

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4. The Significance of Water as a Setting

A recurring theme in Dateline stories is the setting acting as a character itself. "Open Water" leverages the vast, unpredictable ocean to heighten tension and suspense.

Josh Mankiewicz emphasizes the dual nature of water:

"The beauty of nature. Also savage and dangerous." [04:35]

Blaine shares a personal anecdote about his fear of water, adding relatability to the discussion:

"I'm personally scared of water. I can't swim." [04:50] – Blaine Alexander

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5. Unforeseen Challenges During the COVID-19 Pandemic

Originally planned as an on-site investigation off the coast of Naples, the production faced significant hurdles when the pandemic struck. The team had to pivot, relying on local producers to gather necessary footage and interviews, ensuring the story's integrity despite global constraints.

Michelle Madigan elaborates on the logistical shift:

"We started the story before the pandemic. Witnesses from Italy had to pause their testimonies... we ended up not being able to go do this story." [09:45]

Josh Mankiewicz adds a personal touch, expressing regret over missing the on-site experience but commends the local team's efforts:

"The interviews done in Italy were done with local producers... the story came out fine." [10:27]

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6. Bill and Susan: Pillars of Integrity

Bill and Susan, Lonnie's friends and former law enforcement investigators, play pivotal roles in the narrative. Their unwavering commitment to uncovering the truth drives the investigation forward.

Blaine Alexander praises their character:

"These are exactly the kind of people you would want defending you if you were wrongly accused." [13:48]

They navigate the murky waters of doubt and loyalty, ultimately confronting Lonnie with undeniable evidence, leading to his downfall.

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7. A Glimpse into Bill Price's Personal Life

An unexpected yet heartwarming segment showcases Bill Price's passion for dogs. Through his involvement with the American Kennel Club, Bill reveals a softer side, highlighting his dedication and love for his pets.

Bill Price shares his journey with dogs:

"I never owned a dog myself until about the 1990s... it's unconventional, unconditional love." [17:34]

This personal touch adds depth to Bill's character, juxtaposing his tough investigative demeanor with genuine compassion.

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8. Engaging with Listeners: Social Media Insights

The episode transitions into interacting with listeners' comments and questions. Topics range from cruise ship anecdotes to the implications of AI in criminal investigations.

Patricia D. raises a pertinent question:

"How do they tell the difference between a genuine recording and an AI one?" [22:25]

Josh Mankiewicz responds thoughtfully, acknowledging the emerging challenges posed by deepfakes in future investigations:

"I absolutely predict that happening... tracking devices like the Apple air tag are already turning up in all kinds of stories." [23:14]

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9. Conclusion and Upcoming Events

Wrapping up, Blaine and Josh highlight the unwavering integrity of Bill and Susan, celebrating their dedication to truth. They also promote an upcoming Dateline Live event in Nashville on September 28th, inviting listeners to engage directly with the team.

Blaine Alexander concludes with enthusiasm:

"If you think that we're fun and all over the place on these Talking Datelines, you ought to see us in person." [26:13]

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Blaine Alexander: "If you have any questions for Talking Dateline, you can leave it for us in a voicemail at 212-413-5252." [26:05]

• Josh Mankiewicz: "This is a fun along the lines of you not knowing how to swim." [05:10]

• Michelle Madigan: "We should have used that line. Come on, we need Helene." [23:53]

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Final Thoughts

"Open Water" exemplifies Dateline NBC's prowess in weaving intricate true-crime stories with emotional depth and meticulous investigation. Through engaging discussions with Josh Mankiewicz and Michelle Madigan, this Talking Dateline episode offers listeners a comprehensive understanding of the challenges and triumphs behind producing such a captivating narrative.

For those intrigued by the unraveling of Lonnie Kakantis's mystery and the dedication of friends Bill and Susan, this episode serves as a testament to the relentless pursuit of truth that defines Dateline NBC.

Transcript

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[Blaine Alexander]

Hi, everyone. I'm Blaine Alexander, and today we are talking dateline. And today's a special edition of Talking dateline because we have not one, but two guests here. Of course, the one and only Josh Mankiewicz. Hi, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hello.

[Blaine Alexander]

And we are also joined by DATELINE producer Michelle Madigan to talk about their episode Open Water. Michelle, thank you for joining us.

[Michelle Madigan]

Hi, Blaine. It's great to be here.

[Blaine Alexander]

So good to have you. Okay, before we jump into the conversation, if you haven't seen this episode episode yet, you can go find it on the DATELINE podcast feed. So go there, listen to it, and then come right back here. Now, to recap, when Lonnie Kakantis invited his wife, Mickey Kanasaki, on a European cruise, she thought it would be a great opportunity to rekindle their relationship. But Mickey never got that opportunity. A few days into the cruise, Lonnie woke up to find her missing. Had she jumped overboard or been pushed off? As police looked into Lonnie as a possible suspect, his friends took the investigation into their to try and prove his innocence. And what they found changed the course of the case and their lives forever. For this Talking dateline, we've got an extra clip from Lonnie's friend Bill about an interesting hobby of his. But first, let's talk dateline.

[Michelle Madigan]

Let's do it.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Blaine Alexander]

Because Lonnie. Yeah, you guys took me on an emotional roller coaster with Lonnie. I have to say, I I mean, about 18 minutes in I said, okay, this man clearly did it. And then 22 minutes in I said, no. And then halfway through, I just had no idea. So, I mean, that's the mark of a good DATELINE episode, obviously. But I mean, let's talk about this guy because he is somebody who, obviously, he's a lawyer. He's intelligent. He did well in law school. He kind of knows a lot here.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

He was a very smart guy and a very good lawyer.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know, one of the things that I. One of the things I kind of wondered about was what drew Mickey to him, because the thing that was missing from him was some sort of winning personality. Like, he made a lot of money, and he was a senior partner. And. And so, you know, his prestige through his job probably, you know, was part of the draw, part of what made him more charismatic. He certainly knew his way around the legal profession and a courtroom. Exactly what made him so attractive to Mickey, I'm not sure, but she really was taken with him and believed in him and thought, this can, you know, this affair and marriage can sort of come back from the dead. And I think that's what motivated her was like, this can still work, and it'll make me happy and make him happy. It'll be great. Which is sort of partly, you know, one more reason why this is so incredibly diabolical and awful, because it was not just killing someone. It was killing someone who, up until the last second, thought, he loves me, and he's trying to make this work, like with me. And then suddenly she had to realize in the last seconds, wait, this is all about getting me onto this ship. This particular ship with this particular drop straight into the ocean, and this is about killing me.

[Blaine Alexander]

Let's talk about this cruise ship. In fact, let's. Let's just talk about water in general. When the story started for me, you know, we always talk about the fact that the setting is often its own character in Dateline. Right. Whether it's like a lonely, dark road or whether it's a small town where everyone knows each other.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Or a hiker and doesn't lock their doors.

[Blaine Alexander]

And doesn't lock their doors.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Don't leave that out.

[Blaine Alexander]

Nobody never needs to lock their doors. Or a hiking trail. Right. Or whatever it may be. There's always a character.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

The beauty of nature. Right. Also.

[Blaine Alexander]

Exactly.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Also savage and dangerous. All right, go ahead.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah, you got it. It's like you wrote the book on this, Josh. Water. I cannot, for me, personally, I cannot imagine a more terrifying place than water. I'm personally scared of water. I can't swim. So fun. Blaine. Fact in there.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You can't swim.

[Blaine Alexander]

I am unable to swim. Fun fact. I'm actually taking swimming lessons starting here very soon. So if any of our listeners or viewers know how to help an adult overcome a fear of water, please Reach out, because I'm moving.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Look, swimming lessons is a great idea. Weren't you an athlete? Like, in high school?

[Blaine Alexander]

I was a runner. I ran track. I stayed completely dry. I didn't even do the steeple chase where you had to jump in that little pool of water. I stay on land, my friend.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Wow. Okay.

[Blaine Alexander]

Which is, ironically, I just shot a story on a boat, looked totally fine on air, and it was good. But anyway.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

But behind the scenes, you were nervous.

[Blaine Alexander]

It was the getting on and getting off part, when you have to go down that little.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Anyway, this is a fun along the lines of you not knowing how to swim. My mom never learned how to swim because when she was a kid, some male relative, I think, not her father, maybe like her uncle, took her to the ocean and threw her in. And, you know, in my mom's telling, she, you know, nearly drowned, you know, I'm sure, you know, and, like, that made her terrified of water. And she. And she never learned to swim. She would go to the beach with us, she would go to the pool with us, but she would not get in the water ever.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. There's a big difference between a swimming pool, which is contained, and if you go to the bottom, you can, like, push yourself up and still live, and the ocean, which is a living body of water that will swallow you up and never spit you back out. Which is why I was so very surprised that the body was ultimately found here. And obviously Lonnie was, too. But that. I mean, that never happens, right?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I mean, look, almost never. I mean. I mean, the worst luck ever if you're Lonnie Kokotis. I mean, you know, if she sinks and she isn't found, he gets away with it. He's probably walking around today, and there might be suspicions, but there's nothing. I mean, without the body, there isn't a case against him.

[Blaine Alexander]

And, Michelle, I want to ask you about this. I loved hearing from the boat captain, who, mind you, wasn't a member of the Coast Guard, wasn't looking for her, wasn't part of the search party. I just kind of heard an alert. Hey, we're looking for someone who went over overboard, lost at sea, and against all odds, spotted her out in the Mediterranean in open water.

[Michelle Madigan]

Yeah, I mean, he said she wanted to be found. I mean, that's. He was. He had no business finding her. But she. She was right in his path and.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hadn'T been in the water so long that all kinds of forensic things weren't possible. They were like, they knew, like, she had been she was hit on the head before she went in the water. She. She did not die of drowning. I mean, for Lonnie, it was the worst possible luck.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. The revelation that you gave us later on as to why he chose that cruise ship, I loved that first. I loved that you said, first off. This isn't. When people think of a Mediterranean cruise, you're like, oh, this is nice. Good food. It's going to be great. You know, accommodations. Not the case here. This is kind of like an old kind of ferry.

[Michelle Madigan]

Yeah. It was a car ferry.

[Blaine Alexander]

Right.

[Michelle Madigan]

I mean.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right. Which had been converted into a cruise ship. And by the time we were on the story, it had been scrapped. It was no longer seaworthy. At the end, I think, you know, in addition to you pointing up the thing about the, you know, being afraid of the water plane, I. I think what this says is. And I think that any Dateline viewer is going to understand this. I'm not saying you'll all agree with it, but I think you'll understand. Stay off the cruises. I mean, just stay off the cruises. Because terrible things happen on cruise ships. Sometimes they lose power. They're stuck in the middle of the ocean for a bunch of days. We don't do those stories. Right. But there's all kinds of, like. Then there's like the whole kind of like, norovirus foodborne illness thing. That's terrible. But then. Then there is the component of cruising that is featured so often on Dateline, which is people go out on cruises and they do not come back. And given the fact that you can just find, like, an Airbnb with a view of the ocean, that, to me is. Is better than going on a cruise. So in the answer to the question you have not asked Josh, would you ever go on a cruise? The answer is absolutely not hard.

[Blaine Alexander]

Pass. Josh has thoughts about this. I see. It's never easy setting up a Dateline story. There are always a million moving pieces. But this had to have made it all the more difficult to try and do this during a pandemic and not even be there.

[Michelle Madigan]

It really did. I mean, this story was unique. Cause we started it before the pandemic. In fact, a lot of the witnesses who testified came from Italy and had already testified in, like, February of 2020. And then they all had to obviously get back. And, you know, and again, Italy was the first to shut down. And they put the trial on pause. And we kind of waited. And it was right at the point of the trial that the prosecution had rested. The defendant was gonna take the stand, they didn't wanna declare a mistrial and have to redo it all over again. So they just patiently kept in touch with us, kept in touch with the jurors, and eventually they were able to resume it in May. But again, we were all, we were stuck at home.

[Blaine Alexander]

We couldn't go.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

The very few things would have made me happier than if Michelle and I had been able to go there, which was originally the plan. I thought, this is gonna be great. We're gonna be off the coast of Naples, Italy for a week. I was gonna bring my wife over, probably take another week. And then Covid happened and first Italy shut down and then we did too. And so we ended up not being able to go do this story. So the interviews that were done in Italy were done with producers that local producers that Michelle hired there. And they did a great job. And I don't think the story suffered. I think I suffered. I think I continue to suffer. But. But I think the story came out fine. But that was originally behind it was we were going to go shoot this thing and then because of COVID we were unable to.

[Blaine Alexander]

Here's what I can tell you as I was watching this episode, I could immediately tell and I sort of, I was thinking to myself, this had to have been during COVID because one Josh, if you had been there in Italy, I would have known it. The viewer would have known it. We would have seen you in, you know, Italian settings. We would have seen you there and really kind of making the most of this trip, you know, woven throughout the show.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You would have noticed that my wardrobe changed from the early interviews to the later interviews. That's what you would have. Because I would have bought everything I saw. But yeah, no, that did not happen. Foreign.

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hey, guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with a guy who's been in the headlines a bit recently. Stephen Colbert. After the surprise Cancellation of his late show by cbs. Stephen and I talk about his rise up through improv comedy to that spot in late night. You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

[Michelle Madigan]

Hey, everyone. I'm Jenna Bush Hager from the Today show and I'm excited to share my podcast Open Book with Jenna. It is back for season two. Each week, celebrities, experts, friends and authors will share candid stories with me about their lives and new projects. Guests like Rebecca Yarros, Kristin Hannah, Ego Wodom, and more. Like a good book, you'll leave feeling inspired and entertained. Join me for my podcast Open Book with Jenna. Listen now on Apple Podcasts.

[Blaine Alexander]

I can't think of a more fascinating set of characters than Bill and Susan. I mean, aside from people who've been directly involved in the crime. But like, when you started going through their background, Josh, I mean, just former law enforcement investigators. She randomly speaks Italian, which came significantly in handy. I mean, these are the types of people that I certainly would want on my side if I were to ever go missing. I would want these friends.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

These are exactly the kind of people that you would want defending you if you were wrongly accused of something, which was what Lonnie certainly appeared to be at the beginning, that he was kind of getting railroaded by these Italian authorities who were kind of looking for anybody and settled on him. Bill and Susan are exactly who you want in your corner. A situation like that. Seasoned investigators. She speaks the language and they believe in your innocence. And then the more they dug, I mean, it really, the story, you know, was not just Mickey and Lonnie's story, but it was also the story of Bill and Susan and their quest and how they sort of, you know, did everything that they know how to do. And it kept coming up. The, the arrow kept pointing toward Lonnie and not away from him. And, and, and, and that's partly what made this a great story, is that, is, is, is this double story.

[Blaine Alexander]

I'm curious. Watching them, watching the interview that you did, especially with Bill, it's kind of like watching his mind kind of cycle through this, right at first, just so there in defense of his friend. And then around the poly, you know, when he comes back and he goes back to his ex wife that nobody knew about, you know, Bill is like, what in the world is wrong with you? You're smarter than this. You know, this. And then the polygraph and just kind of watching the wheels turn in his mind as he comes to the realization of what happened here. Um, I'm curious. Did they start to suspect Lonnie before that polygraph, or were they just thinking, okay, that was a dumb idea. That was a bad mistake?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I. I think what they were hoping was that the polygraph would put any questions about Lonnie's guilt to rest. And in this case, Bill and Susan were sort of in the same. You know, they had the sort of the same ethos as. As law enforcement. They're thinking, like, you know, what's he going to say? What's he going to do? And if he's willing to take it and he passes it and he's forthright, then I think, you know, they're in a different place. But, you know, he couldn't do it. And, you know, Bill and Susan have too much integrity to cover for anybody, including a friend of theirs.

[Blaine Alexander]

When Lonnie took the polygraph, I was almost wondering which way it would go, whether Bill, you know, obviously they were so very close. Like, you know, would they try and side with them? Obviously, the fact that they were talking to you lets you know that they kind of stayed on the right side of this whole thing. But, you know, you wondered for a second, and it was very clear the moment they realized, no, this man is guilty. This is going straight to the FBI. I also love that Bill confronted him, called him over, and said, hey, you need to tell me to my face. And now I'm sending this to the FBI. Strong move.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yep. Yep. Yeah. I mean, he's an honorable guy.

[Blaine Alexander]

So we also learned something interesting about Bill and Susan. They love dogs. When you came back for at the top of the act, I don't remember which one it was, but the first shot that we saw were just well groomed dogs. I said, oh, where are we going with this? This is a. This is another twist and turn here. And it was so funny. As soon as we got. As soon as the dog show footage was over, I immediately noticed the gold dog necklaces that each of them had on. Like, okay, this is. You know, now I get a little bit about them.

[Michelle Madigan]

Oh, yeah. I mean, the dog. They are both. It's how I kind of found them. I mean, I found their names through this kennel club that they run, and it was how I reached out. And then that continued to be something we would talk a lot about. We had to work around their schedules. Cause they were doing dog shows. She was showing dogs. And, you know, I think also when I said, can we come to a dog show? Can we film you there? They were like, absolutely. You know, he was very proud of that part of his life. And I was glad that we could feature it on a little bit on the show. And then, and then, yeah, take a. If you want to hear, of course, what he had to say about it.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah, yeah, let's listen to that sound.

[Bill Price]

My name's Bill Price. I currently am a AKC delegate with the American Kennel Club. The American Kennel Club has numerous dog shows across the United States. Right now we're in Tampa. We are a five day show. We're averaging 2,400 dogs each day. I never owned a dog myself until about the 1990s. I found this little puppy. It was just the cutest little thing you ever seen. And I noticed this puppy started putting on approximately a half a pound a week. Kept getting bigger and the paws were enormous. And then one day somebody says, well, you have a mastiff. It's one of the largest breeds out here. A mastiff is known for its drool. It's known for taking a tail and clearing a whole toffee table. And they go up to 250, 300 pounds. A lot of people are afraid of them because of their size, but they also have been nicknamed the gentle Giant. People that own dogs, people that come to these dog shows would step in front of a truck for their dogs. You can leave for an hour and come back and they're wagging and jumping like you left for months. It's unconventional, unconditional love.

[Blaine Alexander]

That is.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, I mean, that is something. I mean, like, like, you know, like there isn't a tougher guy out there than Bill Price. And look how sort of soft and squishy he gets when he's talking about his dog. I mean, he's like, you know, that's.

[Blaine Alexander]

People with their dogs and their kids. I mean, it brings out a whole different side. Right. Do either of you have dogs?

[Yasmin Vesugian]

I have two.

[Blaine Alexander]

Okay.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Michelle Madigan]

So yes, I understand that love. I understand that love.

[Blaine Alexander]

Got it. Okay. After the break, Josh and Michelle are going to answer your questions and your min comments about this case from social media.

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[Blaine Alexander]

Well, as you may imagine, we had a lot of social media comments and questions about this, so let's fire through a few of these. Sharon Champagne Talking about cruises, Josh Sharon says so many horrible cruise ship stories. I would, however, go to Italy in a New York minute.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, Sharon Champagne is somebody I know from social media. Sharon, I completely agree with you. Yes. Cruise ships. No. Italy. Yes.

[Blaine Alexander]

Do it.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Do it. You'll love it.

[Blaine Alexander]

That's the moral of this entire story right there. Tracy Trace, I'm 4 11, which means I will never fall off of a cruise ship. Fingers crossed. Emojis. Perks of being vertically challenged.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Okay.

[Blaine Alexander]

Never say never.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, but you know, that's a, that's a compelling argument. That still doesn't mean you should go on a cruise.

[Blaine Alexander]

You shouldn't. This one, I believe, is a little tongue in cheek. Southern Beach Girl writes what a romantic cruise. A stateroom with two twin beds. Yeah, I love that people notice that detail.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah Yeah. I mean. Yeah. And I mean, I just sort of. I. I keep coming back to how Mickey felt about this. You know, she was so looking forward to. And she bought all this stuff for the cruise, you know, and then, of course, she gets there and it turns out, like it's not what she thought. It's not this fabulous luxury cruise. Lonnie is not breaking with character. He's being as old, cheap, devious self.

[Blaine Alexander]

This is a great question from Patricia D. Who writes these days with AI how do they tell the difference between a genuine recording and an AI one?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Well, I mean, you know, first of all, there was no AI when this happened, but I would imagine that going.

[Bill Price]

Forward.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Deepfake Videos and Deepfake Audio is going to figure in a lot of investigations and probably in cases that we end up doing on Dayline in which somebody appears to be, you know, confessing to a crime or saying something that implicates them in a crime that turns out it wasn't them at all. I. I absolutely predict that happening. I mean, it's sort of like, you know, it's sort of like, you know, tracking devices like the Apple air tag. I mean, they're. They're already turning up in all kinds of stories.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I love it when our viewers pay attention to the writing. This is always so rewarding as a correspondent and writer. Okay. Dogged and determined investigator. And they show dogs. That's from Meredith. That is a great line.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Blaine Alexander]

I'm Josh's life. Is it pointing at you, Josh?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I think that was. I think that was you. I think that was you.

[Blaine Alexander]

I don't remember.

[Michelle Madigan]

I don't remember. This is 2020. There's a lot that I don't remember from 20.

[Blaine Alexander]

And of good teamwork. Sign of good teamwork. True. That's true. No, that one stood out immediately. When I saw it, I said, ah, I love it. Dog video. Okay. Somebody said Helene, said Lonnie. Throwing people off of ships and under the bus.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Okay. That's a line we should have used.

[Michelle Madigan]

We should have. We definitely missed. Missed opportunity there. Come on, we need Helene.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah, I love it. Well, we have. And this is a good one to end on. Okay. This is pure honesty for you. Great handle, by the way. If I truly believed my friend was innocent, I would do everything I could to make sure my friend isn't found guilty of something they did not do. But once that doubt starts to hit, I'm singing like a canary.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And that was Bill and Susan. I mean, that, in a nutshell, was Bill and Susan. Like they, they, there is no question they really wanted Lonnie to be innocent. They joined this because they thought Lonnie was going to get railroaded. And then once they realized they were wrong and Lonnie did do it, they completely gave up on that and changed sides.

[Blaine Alexander]

Yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And good for them.

[Blaine Alexander]

And good for them. This was a fascinating episode and I loved having both of you on to talk about it. Josh, Me, too.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Michelle, you, Michelle, you should always come on.

[Blaine Alexander]

I don't know about that. Thanks, Josh. You're welcome anytime and every time. Thank you, guys. Thank you. And that's it for talking DATELINE this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can always reach us24.7 on social media aatelinenbc. And if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can leave it for us in a voicemail at 212-413-5252. I think Michelle gets those calls.

[Michelle Madigan]

I do.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You know that that goes right to.

[Southern New Hampshire University Ad]

Keith, or will they?

[Michelle Madigan]

He answers all the calls.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That's what we always tell viewers. Yes.

[Blaine Alexander]

Okay. I hope our viewers call because you never know what treat you'll get on the other end, but it will give you a chance to be featured on a future episode. And one more thing before we go, and this is a very important thing. Remember, DATELINE is hitting the road. Joshua and I are taking a trip.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yes, we are.

[Blaine Alexander]

And we want you to join us on Sunday, September 28th. The entire team, that's Lester, Keith, Josh, Andrea, Dennis and I will all be in the beautiful city of Nashville for DATELINE Live. It's a first of its kind event featuring onstage panels, audience Q&As and a VIP reception. And let me tell you, if you think that we're fun and all over the place on these talking Datelines, you ought to see us in person. It's not to be missed. Tickets are on sale right [e-mail] event. You can also find a link in the description of this very episode. And of course, as always, we will see you Fridays on DATELINE on NBC. Thanks so much for listening.