Talking Dateline: Poison Twist

Summary

Dateline NBC Podcast Summary: "Talking Dateline: Poison Twist"

Introduction

In the March 26, 2025 episode of Dateline NBC titled "Talking Dateline: Poison Twist," hosts Josh Mankiewicz and Andrea Canning delve into the perplexing case of Mary Yoder, a chiropractor who was tragically poisoned in 2015. This episode revisits the intricate investigation that initially pointed fingers at Katie Connelly, Mary’s office manager, and explores the recent developments that have cast new light on the case.

Background: The Tragic Death of Mary Yoder

Mary Yoder's sudden death in 2015 set off a criminal investigation that uncovered she had been poisoned with colchicine, a potent toxin. Initial suspicions fell on Katie Connelly, Mary's office manager, after an anonymous letter hinted at possible foul play. Connelly’s involvement was further complicated by the discovery of evidence suggesting she had searched for poison on her cell phone. "When it has your Defendant searching for poison. I mean, that doesn't look good," Andrea Canning remarks at [02:32].

Katie Connelly’s Conviction and Overturning

Katie Connelly was convicted of Mary Yoder's murder, but her conviction was recently overturned due to flawed legal procedures. Specifically, the search warrant used to obtain evidence from her cell phone was deemed improperly executed, rendering that critical evidence inadmissible. As Josh Mankiewicz states at [10:26], "In January of this year Katie's conviction was overturned and she was released."

New Developments and Legal Perspectives

The episode features an exclusive interview with Katie Connelly’s latest attorney, Melissa Swartz, who criticizes the previous legal teams for their ineffective representation. Andrea highlights at [15:21], “Melissa Swartz is a really good attorney... she is fighting for her clients, as so many do.” Swartz’s efforts led to the dismissal of Connelly’s conviction, signaling a potential retrial. However, Josh raises concerns about the viability of re-trying Connelly without the previously contested cell phone evidence, noting, “It sounds like trying her again is going to be a lot harder than trying her the first couple of times” [01:09].

Analyzing the Evidence Against Katie Connelly

Despite Connelly’s release, significant questions remain about her culpability. The central piece of evidence—her DNA found on the poison bottle—raises doubts, as Andrea explains at [05:51], “Katie's DNA is on the bottle... her DNA is on a lot of deliveries to the office.” This suggests her presence in the office does not conclusively link her to the murder. Additionally, both defendants in the case, Adam and Bill Yoder, have transactional immunity, preventing further prosecution based on their testimonies, which complicates the narrative.

Motive and Suspect Analysis

A primary challenge in the case is establishing a clear motive for Connelly. Josh discusses the improbability of her having a significant reason to murder Mary, stating, “What motive would she have had?... It feels like a lot to go through to get your boyfriend to notice you again” [27:23]. The lack of a plausible motive contributes to skepticism about her guilt and has fueled ongoing debate among viewers and the families involved.

Viewer Engagement and Public Opinion

The episode also features input from listeners and social media followers, reflecting widespread confusion and divided opinions on the case. Fred Hines from Facebook comments, “It's really hard to know who the real killer was, which is one reason this was such a great episode” [21:24], highlighting the community’s struggle to find definitive answers.

Legal Implications: Search Warrants and Evidence

A significant topic explored is the legal hurdles in retrial processes, particularly concerning search warrants. NBC Legal Analyst Danny Savalas explains at [22:52] that obtaining new evidence without infringing legal standards is challenging but not impossible. However, Andrea questions the feasibility of recovering such evidence years later, especially since much of it was tied to Connelly’s phone: “The biggest barrier would now be time” [24:27].

Conclusion: An Unresolved Mystery

"Talking Dateline: Poison Twist" underscores the complexities and unresolved aspects of Mary Yoder's case. With Katie Connelly free but still under suspicion, and key suspects Adam and Bill Yoder protected by immunity, the truth remains elusive. Hosts Josh Mankiewicz and Andrea Canning conclude that without new evidence, the case might remain a perplexing whodunit, leaving both the families and the public searching for closure.

Final Thoughts

This episode of Talking Dateline masterfully navigates the tangled web of legal missteps, questionable motives, and limited evidence that define the Mary Yoder case. By presenting diverse perspectives and engaging with listener opinions, Josh and Andrea provide a comprehensive and thought-provoking analysis that leaves listeners pondering the true nature of justice and the elusive search for truth in unresolved criminal cases.

Notable Quotes

• Josh Mankiewicz on retrial challenges: “[...] trying her again is going to be a lot harder than trying her the first couple of times” ([01:09]).
• Andrea Canning on DNA evidence: “Katie's DNA is on the bottle... her DNA is on a lot of deliveries to the office” ([05:51]).
• Viewer Fred Hines on public confusion: “It's really hard to know who the real killer was, which is one reason this was such a great episode” ([21:24]).
• Andrea Canning on legal representation: “Melissa Swartz is a really good attorney... she is fighting for her clients, as so many do” ([15:21]).

Final Note

For listeners intrigued by true-crime stories and ongoing investigations, "Poison Twist" offers a compelling exploration of a case that continues to challenge perceptions of guilt and innocence. Stay tuned to Dateline NBC for more updates and in-depth analyses of captivating mysteries.

Transcript

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Hi, everybody, I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and we're talking DATELINE today with Andrea. Hi, Andrea.

[Andrea Canning]

Hi, Josh.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

We are here to discuss Andrea's episode called Poison Twist. Now, if you have not seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your DATELINE podcast feed. So go there, listen to it. You can also watch it on Peacock and and then come back here. Now, just to recap a little bit, this is about the death of a chiropractor named Mary Yoder back in 2015. That turned into a criminal investigation and it turned out she had been poisoned. And a very weird anonymous letter eventually led them to a possible killer who was Mary's office manager, a woman named Caitlin Connolly, also known as Katie. And there's a new development and it's turned all of this kind of upside down and it's a, it's a great whodunit. So for this talking dateline, we have an extra clip of Andrea's interview with Katie Connelly's latest attorney, Melissa Swartz. And later on, we'll be joined by our very own legal analyst, Danny Savalos, to answer one of your social media questions. So let's talk dateline. Katie Connelly is no longer behind bars. And one kind of gets the sense that she might not be retried again. It sounds like trying her again is going to be a lot harder than trying her the first couple of times.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, I was literally just thinking about that seconds before you said it, Josh, about will they go after Katie Connelly again?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

No question. It's more difficult now that the cell phone evidence can't be used.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. I mean, when it has your Defendant searching for poison. I mean, that doesn't look good. Why are you searching for poison? Although they say that Adam had access to all of her electronics, but still, it's not something that you want a jury hearing if you're the defense.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And, you know, if this is her being framed by Adam, which I'm not taking a position on, but if it is, it's one of the great frame up jobs of all time.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes, yes. I mean, the one thing that's a little tricky is the poison being in his Jeep and then he, you know, goes to the police department. I mean, I've wrestled with, why would he keep that in his Jeep? You know, if you killed your mom.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Why would you keep it anywhere? Why would you not throw it out the window?

[Andrea Canning]

Right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

It's not like the colchicine is a gun or something you want to hang onto to use later. You know what I mean? It's not a possession of yours. It's the thing you gave somebody to kill them. You would not want to keep that with you, I would think.

[Andrea Canning]

It seems to me that you would want to get rid of that as soon as possible.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So the TV series House had an episode called Occam's Razor about somebody taking Colchizine. It wasn't a murder plot. I think it was a. It was a pharmacy error. They took one drug instead of another. But they. But colchicine poisoning was a. Was a feature of that episode. Do we know whether Katie ever saw that episode? Was she a fan of House? We don't know.

[Andrea Canning]

I don't. I'm not aware of. Of that question.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And that didn't come up in court that you know of?

[Andrea Canning]

Not that I remember.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I checked after I heard about the Colchician in House, which was a 2004 episode. My cousin John Mankiewicz was an executive producer of House that year, so he was probably. He was one of the writers of that. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

And there you have it, folks. Full circle back to Josh Mankiewicz. There you go, folks. You know, most people use colchicine for gout. Um, it can. It's, you know, it's synthetic or it can come from the plant autumn crocus. So this was one of my favorite moments in all of my datelines was that this poison control woman, Gina Marafa, they had one sample left of blood. They were only able to do one more test. And this poison control expert made this call, you know, kind of, let's try for colchicine, and lo and behold, it's positive for colchicine. And now, Josh, because Colchicine has now been used in other murders. It is now in a lot of places on the standard tox screen, which it was not before. If they had not tested that blood, that one last sample for colchicine sounds.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Like no one would ever have been tried for this.

[Andrea Canning]

None of this would. None of it, we can say none of this would have happened was pretty remarkable.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So let's talk about the evidence that remains against Katie. She is free on what sort of, in, you know, normal parlance is a technicality. Right. The search warrant wasn't done correctly, but the evidence that is eliminated from the search warrant is not at issue. There's not any question as to whether or not that phone was used to search for the poison. The question is, was she doing the searching or was somebody else doing the searching?

[Andrea Canning]

It appears that way, yes.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right. Katie's DNA is on the bottle.

[Andrea Canning]

Yes, Katie's DNA is on the bottle. The explanation for that is that she handles everything in the office. So her DNA is on a lot of deliveries to the office.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So the thing I kept thinking while I was watching this is, okay, it has to be her, but it can't be her, right? Cause it doesn't make any sense. Like, why would she want to kill Mary? All of the possible motives, like removing Mary from Adam's life, would make Adam come back to her. That's like out of some nutty movie. Any evidence that, like, you know, Mary was gonna let Katie go.

[Andrea Canning]

I didn't hear anything. I mean, by all accounts, everyone says that Katie liked Mary.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

I mean, that's the weird thing, you know, Was it. Could it be revenge on Adam because he broke up with her? I'm gonna take your mom from you. Like, they're outlandish motives. I mean, maybe not to the prosecution, they're not, but when you say them out loud, they seem, as we discussed, a little hard to believe.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Any. I mean, the abuse allegations that, you know, Adam denied it, then kind of admitted it. I mean, did Mary even know about that? We don't know.

[Andrea Canning]

I don't know. I mean, that's another question. Did Mary know and she was upset with Katie or. But Katie's still working there, so. So how bad could it be if she's still employed? I mean, wouldn't you fire her if.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. So Mary couldn't have been that upset about it.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, Right. She could just let her go if she was upset with her.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

At the beginning of the episode, Mary shows up at her sister's house, and she sort of is hinting that she has something to talk about. We're never gonna know what that was.

[Andrea Canning]

We're never gonna.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

What do you think that was?

[Andrea Canning]

Oh my gosh. I don't know. I mean, some might speculate that she was gonna talk about, you know, her husband and her sister, her other sister. I mean, it feels to me that.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That'S more that my husband is having an affair with my sister is more likely than my office manager's trying to kill me.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, I know the office manager's trying to kill me. Doesn't seem like the conversation she would have had. But again, we don't know.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

When we get back, we will have that extra clip from Andrea's interview with Melissa Swartz, Katie Connolly's latest attorney and her very strong opinions. The previous defense teams.

[Andrea Canning]

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

In January of this year Katie's conviction was overturned and she was released.

[Andrea Canning]

And she went to McDonald's.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, went to McDonald's.

[Andrea Canning]

That's got her milkshake. Yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I think this is a, I think this is an important talking DATELINE question. If you'd been locked up for seven years, Andrea, what would your first meal be? Because I don't think it would be McDonald's.

[Andrea Canning]

I mean, if you're on the road, Josh, you know, there's not going to be some fancy steakhouse to stop at on the road.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

There are no rules, as you know.

[Andrea Canning]

But she had a drive, a long drive from Bedford Hills back to Utica. So. So yeah, I would probably go to McDonald's if I'm in the car and I've got a long drive home and then I would love to have a home cooked meal or somewhere really nice.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Is McDonald's your fast food of choice?

[Andrea Canning]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I love a medium Diet Coke and a hamburger and sometimes an ice cream cone.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I tend to eat McDonald's only. It's always like a last resort because some other place that you wanted wasn't available or it's too late or you're exhausted or, you know, and in my case, like changing planes at DFW. Right. Or O'Hare or somewhere and you know, you're not getting in until really late. That's when the sirens call of the golden arches arrives. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

I was just there on assignment in Kansas eating McDonald's at night. You know, the glamorous life of a DATELINE correspondent.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And the corollary to that is if I'm in certain places in the Midwest, it's Culver's and if I'm in Texas, it's Whataburger, because Whataburger is the greatest. Yeah.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

All right. So one of the interesting things about this is that, you know, her conviction has been thrown out and she gets a new trial because of something that just about never happens, which is ineffective assistance of counsel. We have an audio question about that. Let's listen to that. Hi, Andrea Estefan from Allentown, Pennsylvania. Just caught up with tonight's episode. It was great. I was wondering how often is ineffective counsel attributed to cases that you've covered through the years? I have covered one case in all my years at DATELINE that I can recall in which that happened, in which somebody's conviction was was thrown out in a new trial order. I mean, generally the bar for that is so high.

[Andrea Canning]

What's really interesting is that Melissa Swartz, the attorney that you mentioned, this is the second dateline that I've done updates with her. She handles appeals. And some of our listeners may remember Remy Ramsaran in upstate New York.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I do.

[Andrea Canning]

He was accused of killing his wife. And he also was eligible for a new trial, didn't end up taking it. He took a plea, but that was also ineffective assistance of counsel. And I rarely give shout outs to attorneys. But I have to say Melissa Swartz is. She is a really good attorney and she's fellow Canadian, and I picked up on her accent immediately during our interview. She was saying a boat and she's from Niagara Falls. Just having worked with her now on these couple of cases, it's so nice to see that in the justice system that, you know, people have such good representation and, you know, she's one of those attorneys who's fighting for her clients, as so many do.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Can you automatically, instantly tell when somebody's Canadian?

[Andrea Canning]

I feel like I have that radar. I mean, I can pick out anybody pretty much instantaneously as soon as, like, you know, I just need a few words, choice words, and then we're good.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

I know this feels, by the way, like a social media contest that is upcoming. Right. I can, I can see this coming. Since we're talking about ineffective assistance of counsel, let's listen to Katie's latest attorney, Melissa Swartz, because she has a lot to say about the previous attorneys on this case. So let's listen to that.

[Andrea Canning]

What's that like when you're attacking or questioning their strategy and who they are as attorneys? I mean, that they didn't do a good job. What is that like when you bring them up? I always try to be very respectful. And it's, I always say this. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. Right. It really is. It's easy for me to second guess somebody else's work. Both attorneys that I accused of being ineffective, good attorneys. I'm not saying they're not good attorneys. I'm not saying, hey, never hire these attorneys ever again. Right. They're both very experienced, very qualified attorneys. So I tried to be respectful in kind of targeting what I thought that they fell short on.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think she, I think she clearly did a great job because she, she triumphed in a way that like most attorneys do not. And those other two guys that came before her, I mean, if you can battle the prosecution to essentially a draw when the, when the jury says we can't make a decision, that means you did a pretty good job.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah. And I thought, Melissa, that was Nice of her, you know, to not throw these attorneys under the bus. And remember, she. That's her job. She picks apart cases. She's looking for any little thing to get someone off. So it's a different role that you're playing, and it's a different perspective.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So if you're Katie, you're going out into the world knowing that a large number of people think that you literally got away with murder.

[Andrea Canning]

There will be those people. Her family has stuck by her. They strongly believe she's innocent. And also family members of Mary sisters who believe that Katie's innocent.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That's the interesting thing about this. I don't mean to dismiss Katie's parents, and I have no doubt that they actually do believe in their daughter's innocence. But parents almost never feel any other way. No one wants to admit they raised a monster or a killer. And this is true across the board. That was less surprising to me than the fact that Mary's family was really sort of steadfast and still is.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, they. They don't believe Katie did this. You know, they're still pointing the finger, some people at Mary's husband. People think he was having an affair with her sister, even though they. He says they didn't get together until after she died. But I don't think it's been totally put to bed for some people, you know. But he completely denies having anything to do with his wife's death.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Police looked into the alleged affair and say Bill's phone records appear to confirm his account. And wouldn't it have been very hard for him to give her the colchicine in a. In a. In an appropriate time frame? Unless you believe that she got it, like 12 hours earlier or something like that.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, because Bill wasn't there. Right.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So when he wasn't there. Yeah, they didn't have lunch together unless.

[Andrea Canning]

He slipped in and no one saw him. But I don't think the office was that big.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

If you. So if you believe that this happened at lunchtime, which is what the prosecution says, then it's pretty much gotta be Katie.

[Andrea Canning]

That timeline would. Would fit better with Katie.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Bill did not want to talk. We approached him, I'm sure.

[Andrea Canning]

No, no Bill, Bill, nor his. The sister that he was with. I don't know if he's still with her. They. They declined to speak with us.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Over the course of Katie's trials, both Adam and Bill ended up with transactional immunity because they testified in front of a grand jury. Now, for people who have committed crimes, transactional immunity can be this giant gift because what essentially is it says we will not prosecute you for anything you admit to in this, in this proceeding, in this session. So you better confess to everything because you will not be prosecuted for it under the law.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, it was new to me. I, I always say, Josh, we learn something new every day on Dateline.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So, you know, that suggests that Bill or Adam could not be charged, at least not based on whatever they said in the grand jury. But again, they didn't confess. Neither one of them said, yeah, I did it.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, no, you're right. It's, I think, I think the state was so confident that Katie is the killer that that probably doesn't bother them because they don't think that Adam or Bill are the killers or one of them is the killer. So, you know, it's easy to give, I guess, immunity when you strongly believe what you believe because there are no plans to go after, as far as I know, to go after Adam or Bill.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

The question is going to be whether Katie gets tried again, not whether somebody else gets tried.

[Andrea Canning]

Absolutely.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Up next, you. And by you, I mean the home listener had a lot to say about who you thought killed Mary Yoder and about the investigation and about everything that happened. We will be right back with your questions from social media.

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[Josh Mankiewicz]

Okay, so this is not my story. This is your story. But I got a tremendous amount of interest in your story on social media on Friday night. I mean, a lot of people ask me, like, what's going on here? What is this? Who is this? I'm like, you should be directing these questions to Andrea. Like, I'm actually not covering this, but a lot of people very interested. Fred Hines on Facebook said, interesting show tonight. It's really hard to know who the real killer was, which is one reason this was such a great episode. I suppose it comes down to just three people. Husband, son, son's girlfriend. If no one outside the family was involved, then it has to be one of those three. Those would appear to be the possible choices. Although, as we've discussed, Adam or Bill were not charged.

[Andrea Canning]

Yeah, I mean, they certainly make for good alternate suspects, you know, for, for defense attorneys. But again, the police and the prosecution felt that everything pointed in one direction, and that was at Katie based on the evidence.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

One of our questions from offy32 concerns the search warrant that was thrown out. I understand that Katie won her hearing and her conviction was thrown out because of a flawed search warrant regarding her cell phone. Why can't law enforcement administer a new and legal search warrant for evidence obtained illegally is still evidence? To help us answer that, here is NBC legal analyst Danny Savalas. Thanks for joining us here on Talking dateline.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Thank you for having me.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

What's the answer to that? They can't just do it again like that.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Well, they could if they went back now and did it. Right. They could get that evidence the proper way. In theory. There's nothing really to prevent the obtaining the same evidence another way in a new trial.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

You mean if they got it by writing a different warrant for like, like, let's say they write it for some other phone and they get it off that phone, for example.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Right, exactly.

[Andrea Canning]

Which would be really hard in this case since it came off of Katie's phone.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Right. I mean, so much of this evidence came from the cell phone that it likely just couldn't be found anywhere else. Unless it's communications with other people who might have those records as well.

[Andrea Canning]

So if Katie texted the poison information to someone else, they could potentially then look at that other person's phone and say, this came from Katie's phone.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Right. Or if she Mailed it to herself on her Gmail account, on her computer or something like that.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Exactly right. Or it could be searches, searches conducted on websites which are, in theory, given to a third party. Almost everything that we do on our phones is us giving information to a third party. So while it may involve a lot more footwork by law enforcement, they often can get to that information through other means than the original cell phone. If that cell phone isn't available, Danny.

[Andrea Canning]

Would it be too late then? If they. Let's say she searched the poison on a website, can they go to that website and say, can you see who was searching what IP addresses or what phones? I mean, would. Would it be far too late for that? Since this was so long ago, the.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Biggest barrier would now be time. It may be that companies or websites may not keep records that long to respond to a subpoena for that kind of information, but if they did, and if you can match up the IP address, which is a unique number assigned to everyone's Internet browsing, then, yes, you could potentially match that up. But even then, if you match the IP address, you sometimes get into the thorny question of, well, who else might have been using the computer or the phone at the time?

[Andrea Canning]

And she alleges that Adam Yoder was using her devices.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Yes. As soon as you match up the IP address, there really isn't much else for a defendant to do other than argue that, hey, this device of mine, laptop or cell phone was like Grand Central Station. Everybody was using it all the time.

[Andrea Canning]

Thanks, Danny.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Danny, thanks so much.

[Grainger Advertiser]

Thanks, guys.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

A lot of viewers had a difficult time watching Katie's latest attorney, Melissa, seeming so happy. She was happy because, as an attorney, she'd won her case. A lot of people have difficulty with the idea that defense attorneys work to free people who are convicted of crimes, some of whom are not guilty and some of whom probably are.

[Andrea Canning]

That's Melissa's role, and that's our justice system. And.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

And everybody deserves representation. And it makes the prosecution prove their case. They can't just say their case. They have to prove it. And you would want that, you, the viewer, if you were ever accused of anything.

[Andrea Canning]

Absolutely. Remember, there are people who think Katie Conley is innocent. So a lot of them. There's different perspectives on this one. And, you know, yes, Melissa was happy she got Katie out. I mean, why wouldn't she be? That's. That's her job. But it doesn't mean that Melissa's celebrating death. It means Melissa's celebrating the release of a client. You know, so It's. They're very two different things.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

So this is a question of how messy Adam's Jeep was. You know, if Adam was innocent, this is a Les G. JV. Les G. 1 day you're going to be promoted to the varsity. Never doubt that. I'm not sure who did it. But if Adam was innocent, why was he so hesitant to let them search his Jeep? Well.

[Andrea Canning]

Well, he did let them.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Yeah. Also, if your Jeep looked like you were living in it, which it kind of almost did, Catherine Wilcox points out it was a pigsty. Maybe that's why he was embarrassed. So maybe. And finally we come back to Katie's motive. Christy Michelle Bennett says, this one really has me baffled. Katie seems so sweet and innocent, but all the ev. What motive would she have had? And we talked about this. I can't think of a good motive for Katie. I can think of this convoluted idea that losing Mary might make Adam come back to her, which sort of happened in a kind of way, but it didn't last. And that feels like a lot to go through to get your boyfriend to notice you again.

[Andrea Canning]

I mean, and the reality is prosecutors don't need a motive to bring someone on murder charges, so.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

No, but maybe the fact that they basically. The fact that they got two hung juries almost might have something to do with the fact that they didn't have a really good motive.

[Andrea Canning]

Right, right. Juries want motives. They want to understand why they're putting someone away potentially for the rest of their life.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Congratulations, Andrea. I thought this was a great episode.

[Andrea Canning]

Thank you. Yeah, it's been a long time, this one, you know, 10 years, so. And Kim Krawitz was the producer on this one. She did an amazing job.

[Josh Mankiewicz]

That's it for Talking Dateline for this week. Now, remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline or things we should cover, you can reach us 24. 7 on social media @datelinenbc. Now, if you have a question for Talking Dateline, you can record a message and send it to us on social media, or you can leave a voicemail at 212-413-5252. That's Keith's personal cell phone.

[Andrea Canning]

How could you do that to Keith?

[Josh Mankiewicz]

Oh, it's easy. It's really very easy. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be off this Friday, but get ready for a whole lot of Dateline the next couple of months. We'll have episodes Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays starting next week. See you then.

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