Dateline NBC: Episode Summary
Episode Title: Talking Dateline: Secrets of the Sliding Door
Release Date: July 23, 2025
Host: Josh Mankiewicz
Guest: Keith Morrison
Producer: Keith Greenberg
Introduction
In the special episode of Talking Dateline, host Josh Mankiewicz sits down with veteran correspondent Keith Morrison to delve deep into the Dateline episode titled "Secrets of the Sliding Door." This episode revisits the harrowing true-crime case of Simonette Mapes Croupy, a high school teacher whose brutal murder shocked Staten Island, New York. Throughout their conversation, Josh and Keith explore the intricate details of the investigation, the pivotal role of unexpected evidence, and the profound impact of the victim's community.
Case Overview
Josh Mankiewicz opens the discussion by providing a succinct recap of the case:
"After a high school teacher named Simonette Mapes Croupy was found stabbed to death inside her Staten Island, New York, home, one of the five boroughs her place had been ransacked, detectives started with a couple of theories. Was this a home invasion? Was it a gang shooting? But it was only when they found the mysterious phone number of a woman who identified herself only as Miss Pumpkin on Simonette's phone, the detectives uncovered a killer that was much closer to home. And of course, because this is Dateline, it was her husband, Jonathan Croupy."
[00:12] Josh Mankiewicz
Keith Morrison adds a layer of intrigue to the discussion:
"Ms. Pumpkin was a kind of a modern person in the sense that she was not in any way diminished by what she did. It was a business. She ran it as a business. But she also was doing other things with her life."
[03:48] Keith Morrison
Initial Theories and Breakthrough
The initial investigation led detectives to suspect a home invasion or gang-related activity, largely due to the extensive ransacking of the house. However, the breakthrough came when detectives discovered a cryptic contact in Simonette's phone: a woman named Miss Pumpkin. This unexpected clue pointed the investigation inward, ultimately revealing that Simonette's husband, Jonathan Croupy, was the perpetrator.
Josh Mankiewicz reflects on the investigative process:
"The house was so completely ransacked from top to bottom, and yet nothing significant appeared to have been taken... So somebody wanted to make it look like a robbery without actually robbing."
[04:57] Josh Mankiewicz
Understanding Miss Pumpkin
A significant portion of the discussion centers around the character of Miss Pumpkin, portrayed as a complex individual balancing her professional life with personal endeavors.
Keith Morrison elaborates:
"Ms. Pumpkin was... she did not feel diminished by what she did. It was a business. She ran it as a business. But she also was doing other things with her life."
[03:48] Keith Morrison
Josh Mankiewicz connects Miss Pumpkin's role to familiar tropes in storytelling, highlighting her contributions to the investigation:
"Sort of the 'hooker with the heart of gold'... once she realized Ms. Pumpkin, that the guy she knew by a different name was in fact the suspect in this case, she... did everything she could to help out law enforcement."
[02:32] Josh Mankiewicz
Impact on the Community and Victim's Character
The episode underscores Simonette's dedication to her community and the lasting impact of her loss.
Keith Greenberg, the episode's producer, shares personal anecdotes:
"She would take her underprivileged kids out for dinner together to celebrate various things, places that they would never otherwise have been able to go... She was a very popular teacher."
[09:37] Keith Greenberg
Additional clips from Simonette's family and friends highlight her compassionate nature:
-
Victoria—Cissy's cousin—says:
"Cissy laid down the blueprint for how I wanted to be as a woman."
[09:51] Victoria -
Eric—a childhood friend—remembers:
"Simonette had a heart of gold, to be honest with you. She was extremely nice, extremely kind, and just a very loving heart."
[10:13] Eric
Jonathan Croupy's Alibi and Investigation
The conversation shifts to Jonathan Croupy's alibi and the investigative scrutiny that followed.
Josh Mankiewicz points out a critical flaw:
"The one problem with the alibi was there was no video at the Home Depot."
[07:28] Josh Mankiewicz
Keith Morrison discusses the implications:
"It's hard to know whether it would have been better or not, but that was the choice he made."
[07:59] Keith Morrison
Further insights reveal Jonathan's background and attempts to present himself differently post-conviction:
"He created an online dating profile. He wrote, 'I'm not married and I don't have any kids. No baby mama drama here.'"
[12:40] Josh Mankiewicz
Keith Greenberg adds:
"He's teaching in prison. And so, you know, he's doing time, but it might be considered easy time by the standards of her family."
[12:59] Keith Greenberg
Community Response and Emotional Aftermath
The episode deeply explores the emotional toll on Simonette's family, especially her mother, who continues to grapple with the loss.
Josh Mankiewicz shares:
"Cissy's mom... is still going through because this doesn't go away... They had that conversation the night before she was murdered."
[10:13] Josh Mankiewicz
Keith Greenberg emphasizes the community's perception of Jonathan:
"One of his former students called him, 'a big little kid.' He would talk to the class in cartoon voices and came to school once dressed as Wolverine."
[11:40] Keith Greenberg
Listener Engagement and Theories
The hosts engage with listener theories and questions, enhancing the episode's interactive dimension.
Roxanne Demeza proposes:
"Maybe rather than accidentally putting Ms. Pumpkin's DNA on the doorknob, Jonathan did it on purpose to throw off investigators so that they would look for a female killer."
[16:47] Josh Mankiewicz
Both Josh Mankiewicz and Keith Greenberg express skepticism about this theory, suggesting it indicates more planning than expected from Jonathan.
Exploring 911 Calls and Their Significance
A discussion on the role of 911 calls in criminal investigations underscores their complexity and potential for misinterpretation.
Josh Mankiewicz recounts:
"I did a story... a woman called 911 and she said, 'I've just found my mom and she's been stabbed...' And she stabbed herself... the cops were like, 'okay, please continue because we're eating this up and it's not her.'"
[15:09] Josh Mankiewicz
Keith Morrison adds caution:
"The thing about 911 calls though is that they can be very tricky... judgments are made and it often will lead the police in the wrong direction sometimes tragically."
[15:09] Keith Morrison
Closing Thoughts
As the episode wraps up, Josh and Keith reflect on the nature of interviews in journalism, especially when dealing with perpetrators of crimes.
Piper's Question:
"Do you ever finish an interview with someone, specifically the person who perpetrated a crime and just wonder how they can deadpan lie to you? Or do you ever just get so angry that people are so clearly lying?"
[17:52] Piper
Keith Morrison responds:
"When you're talking to somebody who's accused of committing murder... their excuse was so egregious and so took advantage of people so horribly that I did get somewhat cross with them. I have to confess."
[18:50] Keith Morrison
Josh Mankiewicz offers his perspective:
"If you're a reporter, you got to get used to people lying to you... your obligation as a journalist... is to expose those lies, not yell at them."
[19:15] Josh Mankiewicz
Conclusion
Talking Dateline: Secrets of the Sliding Door offers an in-depth exploration of a chilling true-crime case, enriched by insightful discussions between Josh Mankiewicz and Keith Morrison. Through interviews, personal anecdotes, and listener engagement, the episode not only recounts the investigation but also honors the memory of Simonette Croupy and examines the profound effects of her loss on her community.
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